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Incompetent FAS
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18-02-2013 4:51pm#1anybody have the same problems with this organisation as me. I have completed a 4 year carpentry apprenticeship and FAS will not provide final papers. Now they are trying to get me to send back my booklet so they can remove my phase 3 & 5 - they say I have not the correct number of years experience. Due to lack of work they accelerated the courses and now are back tracking. My view is this is to create year 1/2 apprentices so that major development companies can get cheap labour (the companies that we are bailing out). One of my problems was I had approx. 15months experience with a cowboy builder who did not pay my stamps so there is no record of my work experience. Social welfare told me I had to chase down this company and get them to acknowledge this is writing - why would this company do this as it is admitting a crime. Company was [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ]- owned by [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ] who I believe now works for [NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR ].
Latest advise??? from FAS (advisor -[NAME REMOVED BY MODERATOR]) was to try another career path and even recommended doing one of their wood working courses - which I would be capable of teaching with my level of skill. In these days how do these incompetent people hold this positions when there are so many skilled and intelligent people out there looking for work.
Has anyone had similar issues with FAS, if so how did you solve it?
MOD NOTE: Asking for advice about the problem is fine, but tlease don't name people here - it can cause legal hassles for boards.ie.Tagged:1
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I trained as a carpenter with my dad and was registered with fas but my dad thought I'd learn nothing except how to drink and have a great social life while on a block release with fas. I spent 4 years as an apprentice from age 17 and I was working with him from age 12 to 21. Only worked summer holidays while very young. Anyway, I never did any exams and therefore neve got official papers. I have trained several apprentices through fas over the years and they all have a recognised qualification. I have employed "qualified" carpenters who knew less than I knew about carpentry aged 15 but I still cannot travel abroad without recognised qualifications. Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.0
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Iwillinmyhole wrote: »Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.
So you did not attend the block releases, you did not do the exams and now it's FAS that is to blame - me thinks the blame lies a lot closer to home!0 -
lol, your dad screwed you royally.Iwillinmyhole wrote: »I trained as a carpenter with my dad and was registered with fas but my dad thought I'd learn nothing except how to drink and have a great social life while on a block release with fas. I spent 4 years as an apprentice from age 17 and I was working with him from age 12 to 21. Only worked summer holidays while very young. Anyway, I never did any exams and therefore neve got official papers. I have trained several apprentices through fas over the years and they all have a recognised qualification. I have employed "qualified" carpenters who knew less than I knew about carpentry aged 15 but I still cannot travel abroad without recognised qualifications. Fas as an agency have no ability to train or help anybody to get a job.0 -
I'm not trying to blame FAS for everything but as a national agency responsible got training and employment I expected some guidance. If I wasn't trained properly then I shouldn't have been allowed to train people. Also I knew a FAS employee who was a woodworking teacher previously and was training bricklayers.
There's a FAS scheme ongoing in my local town and a female friend of mine is after getting a fetac qualification to teach woodwork after a 12 week course. She showed me what she made as part of her training and to be honest it was awful. But now she can train others to be equally as bad. The fact that my dad screwed me royally as a poster put it may give people a great laugh but that's not how I see it. There's lots of work in this country fixing up what qualified and accredited FAS trained carpenters messed up and in 29 years on the job I've never had to show any trade papers.0 -
I am currently in talk with a conversion company in the UK as I have residency there as well. This crowd will convert my exam results into a recognised qualification and then in turn I can bring it into fas and get them to convert it into an Irish qualification as I will then be "qualified" (well if its even worth that) and I shall also bring my little story to the papers as they LOVE writing articles about fas. I was told 2 months back that they would phone me "tomorrow" as they have now lost my little book with results that they requested back.0
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And to the other guy who never did any exams.... I know fas do let a lot of butchers have papers but they teach a lot of theory and tech drawing which at the start I didn't see the purpose but now I am glad of it. In most countries in the world you would be deemed as a skilled labourer as your skills have never been tested to a standard.0
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My understanding is FAS just carry out the paper work. If you don't have the hours and the phases done you aren't qualified. not sure how this is the fault of FAS.
Isn't also match up with the European qualification system now so recognised without any transfer of certs?0 -
So, lads that won't do their exams, lads who don't have the registered apprentice time done, expect an agency to qualify them? Incompetent FAS? Incompetent trainees more like.0
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Incompetent trainees more like.
A little harsh, perhaps. It's not exactly the trainees fault that they couldn't clock up the hours yet, due to the receission.
FAS are doing the job they are paid to do (enforce the standards), and refusing to implement an "Irish solution" ... and thinking about the standard of driving I've seen from some people who got their licences without even having to buy the cornflakes when Ireland joined the EU ... fair play to FAS for doing so.0 -
hahah yea fas are doing there job yea right there a bloody joke they have an obligation to help redudant apprentices get work. but they would sooner see us redundant apprentices on the dole then allow us to finish off our time. its a joke of a system and our apprenticeship union is even worse. i told the new zealand apprenticeship board and the Alberta apprenticeship board about the treatment redundant apprentices get here and they were shocked. as i feel i am going to have to emigrate soon if i don't get this mess sorted.
some of us are skilled workers we all our exams done and the 7 phases but still sort 10- 12 weeks and were left to rot on the dole does not make sense. all i want is to be able to keep my dole and finish my time and get my cert but i don't no why sw and fas wont allow it they would sooner see me at home on it not working. and people wonder why there's so many people on it.0 -
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I have my exams ans my hours but after doing everything fas are saying my hours didn't count for ****e.0
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as i said mate there a joke a change of a career is our only option. is funny how they would never shaft any apprentices in semi state company's like bord na mona irish rail etc. there hours will always be spot on. it does not make sense all i want is my cert its a poor show.0
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i told the new zealand apprenticeship board and the Alberta apprenticeship board about the treatment redundant apprentices get here and they were shocked. as i feel i am going to have to emigrate soon if i don't get this mess sorted.
You picked the wrong person to try that line on :-)
New Zealand's Trades Certification Board was abolished in 1990.
Building apprentices are now covered by the Building and Construction Industry Training Organisation. This is far more than just an "examining board" and does indeed have a role in matching people to new employers, when one employer cannot give them the right sort of training/hours. However they are very clear that it is the trainee who is responsible for getting - and keeping - a suitable job.
Many of the people working in apprenticeship area know full well that if an industry hasn't got much work on, it is often not possible to provide suitable training hours (especially ones who were around in the 1990s). I very much doubt that they would have been really shocked, though they might have expressed shock on the phone as part of managing the relationship with you.0 -
What line?:o
I am not a building apprentice i am an electrical apprentice. i was in contact with these guys http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/content/overseas.html and they were quite shocked at someone like me who has all my exams done and phases would be just left to rot on the dole. so i will stick to what i said in an earlier post fas are a bloody joke them so called apprentice adviser's sitting in there leather chairs on 600 or 700 euro a week are a joke aswell no help at all.0 -
I told my friend about this new CDM scheme Fas have. He is currenty doing Electrical Service Engineering and hes a qualified electrician. I told him about the design and quote he laughed and said thats not your job. How are Fas getting away with this new test for redundant apprentices . Designing a electrical installation is a electrical service engineers job, quoting prices with and without taxes is a estimator job. And testing in this exam , sure ya cant do testing course unless your qualified . In the real world electrical companies have depts . How do Fas expect redundant apprentices to know everything there is to know about an installation if there not trained to design and quote test and left rotting on the dole0
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i can understand about the priceing bit being a bit stupid but the test itself is only made up over what we covered on the 7 phases and that includes testing:D the test its a great idea but some of it is flawed and the waiting list is huge.0
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hahah yea fas are doing there job yea right there a bloody joke they have an obligation to help redudant apprentices get work. .
some of us are skilled workers we all our exams done and the 7 phases but still sort 10- 12 weeks and were left to rot on the dole does not make sense. all i want is to be able to keep my dole and finish my time and get my cert but i don't no why sw and fas wont allow it they would sooner see me at home on it not working. and people wonder why there's so many people on it.
Fas are not in anyway obliged to get you a job or even sort you with enough weeks to get your qualification. That is your own personal issue and you are under a misconception that they can magic such roles into existence.
If there are only 20 opportunities and 400 people looking how do you think they should decide who gets the roles? Why you feel you should get your dole while not available to work is a mystery to me.
You chose to train for a job that was obviously not going to keep it's demand and I know fas warn people signing up for course if they think the demand will dry up.
What have you done to go and find somebody to finish off your time with?
It is completely your choice to rot or not rot on the dole. You need to learn how to help yourself. There are lots of community project that could do with a spark. If you do good deed there will be people out there to help you. Sitting back doing nothing and moaning about how nobody is helping you will do you more damage than just not having your cert.
Your choice to be happy in the future by doing something now. I wish you the best but you are headed down a dark future if you continue as is.0 -
i agree with some of what you said but when i started the apprenticeship back in 07 there was an endless amount of work and fas were only to eager to sign apprentices up.I have done a lot of things to try and find work i have offered to work for free fas turned this down. i offered to go on a jobs bridge type scheme fas turned this down. i found two employers to take me on fas said both of these were not eligible. even though they have done nearly all of the major electrical work in my town. i also have worked more then the required time but fas wont backdate this which would allow me to get my cert. every other country allows this so it does not make sense. Like what more can i do.
I don't agree with your last line either is it to much to want something that is entitled to me if i give up on this electrical without getting my cert then i have nothing to show for the last 6 years. and also there's not only 20 positions there's so many places lads like myself could be put to finish our time. Irish rail,bus eireann, bord na mona, HSE and many more all these require electricians surely it would make more sense for me to be placed there and getting my dole and get my trade cert then to be at home everyday with no work.
there always going on about on the news about the number of under 25 males on the dole well a lot of us are apprentices many in the same boat as me if there were to do something like i have suggested it would reduce that number quite a bit.0 -
Just thought id give my comments on this. I just finished my apprenticeship there in December and I was lucky enough to have work for the full 4 years so I go qualified.
Fas as an organization are an absolute joke and they couldn't care less about apprentices on their books. Throughout my apprenticeship any correspondence I had with fas was a disgrace. Trying to contact your training advisor is a nightmare, they never answer and if you leave a message they don't get back to you and their sole job is to look after apprentices. Nearly guaranteed you will have to ring 3 or 4 times to get through to them and when you do get through they don't want to help you. EXAMPLE - At the end of my apprenticeship I finished with my company as an apprentice after doing 206 weeks (2 weeks short but I was starting as an electrician the next week with a different company). I rang my training advisor to ask him would this be okay to save me having to register with my new employer as an apprentice for 2 weeks and he said it would be. The Tuesday of the next week they ring my employer and say I hadn't completed my apprenticeship as I was 2 weeks short. For a start why did they ring my employer and not me? I rang my training advisor and told him someone rang saying I wasn't qualified and his response was "well it wasn't me". I didn't give a f*** who it was I just wanted the matter resolved! Thats their attitude completely, pass the buck!
Phase 2,4,and 6 are your exam blocks. 4 and 6 are done in college and after the exams we had our results after a month. It took me 4 months to get my results after phase 2. How can it take 4 months to send out results of something that was corrected a week after it was done?
As for redundant apprentices, its very hard for a 3rd, 4th year apprentice to get work to finish their apprenticeship. Why would an employer take on a 3rd, 4th year when they can take on a 1st year and get a few years of cheap labour out of them. The company I worked for took on a redundant apprentice 2 years ago and he got 8 weeks work with us to get his weeks up. Cost the company nothing as he was getting dole and company was getting free labor. He was the only one that came in, why are fas not setting up schemes with big companys to take lads on for a few months to get their hours. You say its down to the apprentice but they cant do this themselves as they would lose thier dole money. Fas should be setting this up, its good for the apprentice and free labor for the company! Just because an initiative doesn't exist now doesn't mean one cant be set up.
As for that cdm test its a completely retarded solution to all this. Im an industrial electrician and with the current climate allot of work is in the industrial side of things. I would have absolute no experience of pricing or planning a job (since they are not really an electricians job) so why should inexperienced electricians be judged on whether or not they get tier cert on this test. Fas would be better suited trying to get lads the weeks work they need with companies instead of sticking them on a year waiting list to do this ridiculous test.0 -
Well said m.j.w agree 100% what you have said.0
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Ray Palmer wrote: »Fas are not in anyway obliged to get you a job or even sort you with enough weeks to get your qualification. That is your own personal issue and you are under a misconception that they can magic such roles into existence.
Fas are the goverment employment agency and they are in charge of apprentices. They should be doing everything they can to get lads through their time as it could result in getting people of the dole. Im sure they could sort deals out with companies to take on apprentices if they bothered to do it but of course they wont as they dont care.0 -
Fas are the goverment employment agency and they are in charge of apprentices. They should be doing everything they can to get lads through their time as it could result in getting people of the dole. Im sure they could sort deals out with companies to take on apprentices if they bothered to do it but of course they wont as they dont care.
You are simply wrong in what you think FAS are there for and their obligations are. Fas are not in charge of apprentices, they mange the certification that has to match up with the rules and regulations of such. You are mixing up different roles that FAS
Companies don't want you and FAS can't make them want you. They are not there to create work placement for you in the first place. You are simply complaining about somebody not doing something that is not their responsibility. You may think it is but it isn't.
First FAS no longer exists but the roles that they cover still exist but are separate
1) The are facilitators for the apprentices exam
2) They provide training as they are directed
3) The advertise jobs
4) They assist companies to find employees
These are separate roles and are not combined. They cannot short cut your certification as it is independently audited. Hence your lecturer/teacher cannot tell you the two weeks short is ok. It is not up to him or even managed by him. The same reason is why it takes 4 months to process exam results as all back work and documentation is checked.
@Calgary22
In 2007 if you were unaware that the property bubble burst and would effect tradesmen than that is your fault and issue. It was so obvious and I know there were people in FAS warning people signing up to be apprentices. You aren't entitled to your cert because you never completed that in no way is the fault of FAS. Saying it doesn't make it true. When FAS turned you down was it because you didn't qualify? I can bet it is.
You are more than welcome to suggest what should be done but FAS are not the ones to do it for you. It simply isn't their job. I wonder how happy your fellow sparks would feel if a ton of free labour cut their overtime. I think you will find they are blocking you and not actually FAS. Why don't you organise yourself to get what you want. There is nothing stopping you. You can help yourself and others. Why not?0 -
I completely agree with m.j.w.0
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Ray Palmer wrote: »You are simply wrong in what you think FAS are there for and their obligations are. Fas are not in charge of apprentices, they mange the certification that has to match up with the rules and regulations of such. You are mixing up different roles that FAS
Companies don't want you and FAS can't make them want you. They are not there to create work placement for you in the first place. You are simply complaining about somebody not doing something that is not their responsibility. You may think it is but it isn't.
First FAS no longer exists but the roles that they cover still exist but are separate
1) The are facilitators for the apprentices exam
2) They provide training as they are directed
3) The advertise jobs
4) They assist companies to find employees
These are separate roles and are not combined. They cannot short cut your certification as it is . Hence your lecturer/teacher cannot tell you the two weeks short is ok. It is not up to him or even managed by him. The same reason is why it takes 4 months to process exam results as all back work and documentation is checked.
@Calgary22
In 2007 if you were unaware that the property bubble burst and would effect tradesmen than that is your fault and issue. It was so obvious and I know there were people in FAS warning people signing up to be apprentices. You aren't entitled to your cert because you never completed that in no way is the fault of FAS. Saying it doesn't make it true. When FAS turned you down was it because you didn't qualify? I can bet it is.
You are more than welcome to suggest what should be done but FAS are not the ones to do it for you. It simply isn't their job. I wonder how happy your fellow sparks would feel if a ton of free labour cut their overtime. I think you will find they are blocking you and not actually FAS. Why don't you organise yourself to get what you want. There is nothing stopping you. You can help yourself and others. Why not?
Its not the job of Fas? Why did they set up the reduntant apprenticeship scheme then and have the 4th year apprentice start with us to get his weeks? It was fas that organised that and if they set it up with the company they would probably take other lads on every year. Im not saying every company would do it but im sure some would so there is nothing to stop fas doing it. Its in the interest of the apprentice and the state to get people qualified and the chance to get off the dole, would it not be common sence for fas to assist in this.
As for the independently audited certification, my training advisor told me that the 2 weeks short was okay, not the teacher and in the end up it was okay. Its fas that send the details of your weeks worked to them so thats why I took his word for it, common sence prevailed in the end. Fetac state that an apprentice must complete 208 weeks for apprenticeship, if you count the 4 weeks hoildays you get over 4 years that means you only work 192 weeks but you still get qualified dont you?
As for the exam results, when you are in college you get your results within a month but when you are in fas training centre it takes 3 months? Thats the fault of fas. Its nothing to do with fetac, they are given all your results when you are finished your apprenticeship so they would not have anything to do with the individual phase results.0 -
What line?:o
I am not a building apprentice i am an electrical apprentice. i was in contact with these guys http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/content/overseas.html and they were quite shocked at someone like me who has all my exams done and phases would be just left to rot on the dole.
The Registration Board don't manage apprenticeships, they manage safety qualifications. And they may well have been surprised because they won't have had the experience of matching trainees to non-existent jobs.
Interestingly, it appears that in NZ electricians apprenticeships are one of the few areas in which you don't manage your own employment - these people do it for you: http://www.etco.co.nz/about-etco
Thinking back, I seem to remember hearing about this ... something to do with very few firms having enough range of work to ensure that apprentices got the full range of training that they need to be registered.
Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for.
And right now, you have a choice: contineu to be bitter and blame FAS (or the governtment, your guidance councellor, the EU, the English, whoever) - or get over it, and fiure out what you're going to do instead.
Yes, the position you are in sucks. It's not fair. Etc. But no one said that life would be fair. It's your attitude that determines what happens next.0 -
Mrs OBumble wrote: »
Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for.
And right now, you have a choice: contineu to be bitter and blame FAS (or the governtment, your guidance councellor, the EU, the English, whoever) - or get over it, and fiure out what you're going to do instead.
Yes, the position you are in sucks. It's not fair. Etc. But no one said that life would be fair. It's your attitude that determines what happens next.
I agree with you that it is not the fault of fas, goverment etc for apprentices being reduntant but there is more that could be done about it. You say there that there are more un-completed apprentices than places. Does that mean just because you cant help them all that you dont help any?
As I said in my opinion fas could set up agreements with bigger companies to take on lads each year. What you two are saying, its up to you to do it is a very simplistic outlook. The days of stolling onto building sites looking for work are over. If an apprentice rang these bigger companies saying they needed 5 or 6 weeks work they wouldnt be interested but im sure fas could use there influence to arrange for these companies to take 3 or 4 lads on a year. This way the apprentice would be paid by the dole and it costs the employer nothing. Would you not agree thats its not just in the interest of the apprentice to get qualified and if so would it not make sence for fas to assist in it?
What happens if my employer goes out of business or if I am made redundant during my apprenticeship?
Every effort will be made by FAS to help you progress through your apprenticeship if you find yourself in this situation. You should contact the FAS Training Adviser assigned to you when you were registered as an apprentice who will be able to offer you advice and assistance.
If it isnt part of their job to help you they should take that off their website.0 -
Ray Palmer is spot on: there are more un-completed apprentices than there will ever be places for. .
Ray Palmer is not spot on there is just under 1000 thousand redundant apprentices that are in the same position as me. having completed all there college phases and off the job phases. every hospital in Ireland has electricians if there was be 2 apprentices places in every hospital i am sure that would take the brunt of the 1000 apprentices. and even if it didnt we could be placed in Bord na mona,esb,irish rail,bus eireann,dublin bus,daa, all of which employ electricians. so if the government had the right idea they should place us there and allow us to finish our time.0 -
To help apprentices but that doesn't mean they are going to 100% successful. It doesn't mean they are obliged nor you can't help yourself. Fas to contact companies to try and help but the companies don't want you. You are assuming they have done nothing because you assume the results would be better. You aren't needed, there is too many. What do you think would happen if you all were certified? There still won't be any work.Its not the job of Fas? Why did they set up the reduntant apprenticeship scheme then and have the 4th year apprentice start with us to get his weeks? It was fas that organised that and if they set it up with the company they would probably take other lads on every year. Im not saying every company would do it but im sure some would so there is nothing to stop fas doing it. Its in the interest of the apprentice and the state to get people qualified and the chance to get off the dole, would it not be common sence for fas to assist in this..As for the independently audited certification, my training advisor told me that the 2 weeks short was okay, not the teacher and in the end up it was okay. Its fas that send the details of your weeks worked to them so thats why I took his word for it, common sence prevailed in the end. Fetac state that an apprentice must complete 208 weeks for apprenticeship, if you count the 4 weeks hoildays you get over 4 years that means you only work 192 weeks but you still get qualified dont you?.
Your training advisor was wrong and ultimately doesn't have the authority to do that. I don't know all the rules but if you need 208 weeks that is what you need if they don't count holidays that seems fair to me.
In college you don't get your results in a month so I don't know what you are saying here. 3 month wait for certification that is independently evaluation. I have gotten results on professional qualification but waited over a year for the cert. This is not unusual.As for the exam results, when you are in college you get your results within a month but when you are in fas training centre it takes 3 months? Thats the fault of fas. Its nothing to do with fetac, they are given all your results when you are finished your apprenticeship so they would not have anything to do with the individual phase results.
Fas cannot make companies take you. You do not know what they have done to try to get companies to take you. EU law prevents many things such as providing free labour en mass that would effect tender processes.
Go ahead moan and do nothing yourself, it will not lead to a happy life and makes you come across quite badly. Maybe you would be different in person but I have met many people express similar views and I would describe them as having a chip on their shoulder and an ridiculous sense of entitlement. I am not sure you are even aware that is how it comes across.
If you feel you are being failed by the system do something about it. Look at what one guy did for himself by taking out a billboard ad. Pool together and help yourselves.
I am under the distinct impression that many just want their certs so they can leave the country. With such high demand you could get a foreign company to help you too. There is a lot that can be done, start thinking about that and stop moaning.0 -
What have you done about it? What do you do with the 1000 qualified electricians then? Why should private companies take you on? With the exception of the hospitals the rest are private companies.Ray Palmer is not spot on there is just under 1000 thousand redundant apprentices that are in the same position as me. having completed all there college phases and off the job phases. every hospital in Ireland has electricians if there was be 2 apprentices places in every hospital i am sure that would take the brunt of the 1000 apprentices. and even if it didnt we could be placed in Bord na mona,esb,irish rail,bus eireann,dublin bus,daa, all of which employ electricians. so if the government had the right idea they should place us there and allow us to finish our time.
How do you know they haven't tried this?
Just another note. I would guess the electricians in the hospital are actually hired by a service company and not directly to the hospital. So you would have to go to the service company0 -
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A piece of paper is not a qualification, nor is it an indication of competence! Coming from FAS, to realise its real worth, this piece of paper should be very long, 11 centimetres wide and have a perforation every 13.5 centimetres across the width. Preferably rolled on a tube...0
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