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Safety and the rules/regulations/law of open road racing.

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    #362
    michael196
    Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    Cond0r wrote: »
    Organisers of events run on a handicap basis seem to be able to manage it pretty well?

    Surely those expensive finish line cameras can pick this stuff up?

    I raced in the US a couple of years ago, and they have finishing times for every rider in the race - without using transponders. My assumption is that the finish line camera (+software) is able to read the numbers as riders cross the line. Numbers were pinned over your left shoulder blade instead of the pockets.

    cameras operators manually read off every rider race number and correlate the times and print.


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    #363
    JK.BMC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭JK.BMC


    MichealD wrote: »
    Spot on Ger.

    Hopefully every one on this thread who are making comments - many of which are helpful and well intentioned but some laughable - will get involved with their own club and give up a days racing to promote an event and see things from an organisers perspective.

    I've been involved in running open races and a sportive for the last 10 years or more, have run a national championships and been a Ras stage end organiser so I know a little bit but only a chap compared to wav!

    The amount of workload involved in promoting a four race event, choosing routes, arranging venues, safety statements, sign on, parking, marshals, prizes, trophies, ambulances, commissaires, commisaires cars, lead cars, moto marshals, publicity, photo finish, radios, guards, notifying neighbouring premises and residents on route, signage, insurance indemnitys, I could go on and on and on.

    Add in a few residents complaining about their driveway being blocked or a rider pissing in their front garden or a guard insisting on extra marshals on some part of the course at 5 minutes notice and you can see how much fun it is.

    The race program is so full, and the time table so tight, on say a 25km circuit we use that you are just hoping that you will have the finish area cleared from one race before the next one arrives - (yes that's why I'm shouting at you to clear the road as you chat on the centre line!)

    The idea that an organisation stretched to the limit could throw in and extra race for Juns or A2s or split an A3 race and find two lead cars, a commissaire and an ambulance for each at short notice???

    And at the end of the day the net cost to the club to put on the races could be €500 or €1,000.

    Running a sportive is a piece of piss compared to a road race, more enjoyable and more profitable for the club. Is it any wonder so few clubs run races but every cross roads has a sportive?

    There are some very valid comments here about race sizes and pre entry and after driving a team car behind the Des Hanlon A3 on Sunday I am seriously looking at introducing it for our open race if the large field trend continues purely for safety reasons and limited numbers to say 100.

    However I'm fairly sure rather than being thanked for our safety awareness we'll be pilloried for making unnecessary complications in asking riders to make a decision early on their choice of race, will have a smaller field and less income and get an earful of grief on the day if the race is full and Joe who came for the last five years can't get in.

    With the best will in the world A3 and A4 riders do not have the skillset to ride in 200 man fields on Irish open roads. Sooner or later there will be a serious, serious incident and I would not like to be the one to have to break bad news to a wife or parent.

    Well said. Sums it all up


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    #364
    michael196
    Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    Jep Gambardella wrote: »
    I think anyone who proposes capping field sizes at an AGM will be met with fairly stiff opposition from clubs who organise races.


    the circuit / route assessment carried out by the organiser , should indicate the max field size, not an arbitrary number applied to all.

    assess your route/ circuit, determine the max safe field and apply it. determine the risk level to the field size and the circuit available and stick to ur max field.


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    #365
    michael196
    Registered Users Posts: 1,222 ✭✭✭michael196


    wav1 wrote: »
    Lots of hypothetical solutions to real problems
    If a promoter is to please everyone on here you will now have possibly 6 x races on a programme instead of the now 3 or 4
    A1 A2 A3 Jun A4 Woman
    Answer Will never happen due to lots of reasons.Extra 6 or 8 cars plus extra comms plus most circuits being totally unable to hold all these races without them mangling up in each other..So simply its undoable.So basically you can only tweak whats there at present.
    A solution [particularly and probably only at this time of year]would be to allow 2 promoters put on events in the same province on the same day,thereby in theory halving the field size in each..Simple way out?Probably not..Why,,Because there are not enough promoters willing to run road races and in this instance their revenue would be halved so that would probably leave less promoters.
    I have just come home 10 minutes ago to a new 2 obstacles that are now in my way for our big weekend of promotions in about three weeks..Obstacles that have to be and will be overcome..CI AGM is the place to try and make the changes but in a constructive way,not just a fix to suit some people.
    Really and I don't mean this in a bad way..You riders have NO idea what goes in to putting on open road races


    so true, that many posters don't see the bigger picture of putting together a one day race.

    L roads crossing to R roads to N roads, all parts of the circuit will not be the same width, will not have the same capacily,. ( reference to sending 200 down a bothareen)


    Diversions are just not workable and traffic is never permitted in the same direction as the race, with the exception of large R roads or N roads where the opportunities for safe overtake of the complete peleton is possible.


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    #366
    Junior
    Registered Users Posts: 3,180 ✭✭✭Junior


    buffalo wrote: »
    I'd love to see a road race held entirely by posters in these threads - six separate limited pre-registration entry races, run on freshly surfaced (but not too fresh!) closed roads, fully marshalled with Garda outriders, lead cars and comms for each, finish line results and time gaps for every rider available instantly afterwards, and enough tea and sandwiches to feed an army. And all prizes are cash, or trophies made out of cash. And run on a budget that breaks even while riders are only charged €15 to enter.

    I'm looking forward to it already!

    I ran one last year. Not sure if you came down and rode it ..


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    #367
    Inquitus
    Registered Users Posts: 13,734 ✭✭✭✭Inquitus


    lennymc wrote: »
    Does your club run closed road, capped races? If not, why not?

    Committee likely more worried with covering their arses than promoting road races, but then in this litigious society, and especially in the Fingal context, you can't really blame them.


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    #368
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 75,485 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Inquitus wrote: »
    Committee likely more worried with covering their arses than promoting road races, but then in this litigious society, and especially in the Fingal context, you can't really blame them.
    In the context of my own club, does anyone really want us setting a precedent of closed roads for a club league?

    Not only is there a lot of hassle involved, we are talking a 20 week league (some of which are TTs which can be run 100% within the RoTR). We would need to avoid using circuits too regularly to try and keep locals onboard. We also would be unable to use certain roads because they go through motorway junctions or because there is no adequate diversion routes. In all likelihood the circuits would be short or very convoluted meaning more junctions and more marshals. We have to put in place diversions. We have to close the road for a set period - say we did it for 2 hours - we cannot reopen after the last racer has gone through - we still have responsibility for anything that happens during the formal closure period.

    Bottom line - even if there is not much financial cost there is a hell of a lot of hassle involved for the benefit of maybe 40 racers (although half of them could well end up marshaling or getting involved in other aspects of administration)


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    #369
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Beasty wrote: »
    In the context of my own club, does anyone really want us setting a precedent of closed roads for a club league?

    Definitely not, it would be an end to local support or at least an end to local lack of empathy. At the minute, most clubs I imagine hope just not to annoy anyone, in the best cases a few locals will come out and have a look and even cheer and ask questions. If we go for closed roads for a club league, no matter how much you change the circuit, you can say goodbye to that club league.


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    #370
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    And so, my other beloved sport comes in to the conversation... how do rallies get closed roads? More money I'm sure, but is that it?


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    #371
    doozerie
    Registered Users Posts: 4,830 ✭✭✭doozerie


    It seems like there are a bunch of issues being conflated here. My understanding of the discussion is that the following are perceived as the most significant problems, in no particular order:

    * Dangerous riding - riders planting themselves on the wrong side of the road into oncoming traffic, into blind bends, etc., and throwing themselves into the “safety” of the bunch when it suits them.

    * Big bunches which swell to fill an entire road.

    * The best of the juniors soaking up all the points and effectively throttling the upgrade of A3 riders.

    They all overlap, to an extent, obviously. These issues must also exist to some extent or other in other countries - all that I know of the UK system is that they impose caps on numbers for each race but I don’t know what other initiatives they’ve taken, and I’ve no idea what other federations do either. Basically, could we learn any useful lessons from other countries?

    Personally, I’d be happy to see some progress made on that first issue above alone, rider behaviour. If nothing else changed, then that in itself would have a huge impact (bad choice of words) in my opinion. The commissaires clearly have a role to play there - I was delighted when the guy on Sunday started calling out the numbers of A3 riders planted permanently on the wrong side of double solid white lines, I was disgusted when he did nothing more than threaten without ever carrying through on those threats.

    But I was also disappointed at the lack of response from the bunch itself, those riders were putting us all in danger but the majority of us simply ignored them being out there, doing no more than letting out an exasperated squawk when the inevitable near-crashes occurred as those guys swerved into the bunch in the face of (some) oncoming traffic. I believe we could help ourselves a lot by making it clear that dangerous riding like that isn’t considered acceptable within the bunch. If we don’t take that stand ourselves then even the most committed commissaire is wasting their time trying to tackle it.

    Apart from the potential safety benefits of such peer pressure, it also costs nothing, so the very real hurdles to some of the proposed organisational changes/solutions don’t apply. Plus a lot of us are middle-aged, surely we’ve got enough grievances with the world at this stage in our lives that screaming at some prat who decides that they have no responsibility for the safety of those around them would be quite therapeutic. Just pretend they are your frustrating child/boss/neighbour/bank manager/whatever and let rip verbally. It’s cheaper than counselling.


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    #372
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    And so, my other beloved sport comes in to the conversation... how do rallies get closed roads? More money I'm sure, but is that it?

    Yep, money ! I'm not sure how the amount is worked out but for a local 2 day rally down our way I think the figure was somewwhere between 5 and 10 grand for road closing orders . Thats over 8 stage locations and the roads being closed for about 6-8 hours.


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    #373
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    And so, my other beloved sport comes in to the conversation... how do rallies get closed roads? More money I'm sure, but is that it?

    Easy. They pay road tax.


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    #374
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    Easy. They pay road tax.

    Well, actually, are you sure about that?


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    #375
    Lusk_Doyle
    Registered Users Posts: 4,338 ✭✭✭Lusk_Doyle


    CramCycle wrote: »
    Well, actually, are you sure about that?

    Your sarcasm detector needs tinkering with!


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    #376
    CramCycle
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    Lusk_Doyle wrote: »
    Your sarcasm detector needs tinkering with!

    My pedant-o-meter is upto the max, overrides everything else


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    #377
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    CramCycle wrote: »
    My pedant-o-meter is upto the max, overrides everything else

    They do pay road tax and also need NCT as they have to travel on roads between stages. Loeb tried to get between two stages with a wheel missing and police stopped him AFAIK.

    And back to cycling.

    Can anyone speak of the situation in other cycling countries? The kermesse seems like a good option?


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    #378
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    They do pay road tax and also need NCT as they have to travel on roads between stages. Lobe tried to get between two stages with a wheel missing and police stopped him AFAIK.

    And back to cycling.

    Can anyone speak of the situation in other cycling countries? The kermesse seems like a good option?

    I rallied for about 10 years and I would say about 10% of rally cars have road tax and I don't ever recall seeing one with an NCT . In Northern Ireland its strictly enforced but in the south not so much. Saying that its about 5 years since I was involved.


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    #379
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    fondriest wrote: »
    I rallied for about 10 years and I would say about 10% of rally cars have road tax and I don't ever recall seeing one with an NCT . In Northern Ireland its strictly enforced but in the south not so much. Saying that its about 5 years since I was involved.

    It's still not enforced, but they're supposed to have it. Lads have awful hassles with the NCT mostly.


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    #380
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    It's still not enforced, but they're supposed to have it. Lads have awful hassles with the NCT mostly.

    Can't imagine any of them passing the emissions test.

    The thing is a lot of the motor clubs have big issues with local residents when closing off roads for the day and a lot of expense. Cycling definitely does not want to go down that route , it would do a lot of damage to the sport .


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    #381
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    May not have a choice though. In all honesty, how do other countries run their races? Are we going to have industrial estate criterium?


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    #382
    lennymc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,458 ✭✭✭lennymc


    ^^^ It's motor tax


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    #383
    buffalo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,054 ✭✭✭buffalo


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    Are we going to have industrial estate criterium?

    Having marshalled at a few of those in Sandyford, they seemed to attract even more local heat than road races.


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    #384
    lennymc
    Registered Users Posts: 6,458 ✭✭✭lennymc


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    industrial estate criterium?

    They would be pretty cool. most industrial estates are empty at weekends. A boardsie was talking about this to me recently and was saying that one particular estate he had in mind had a one way system, with proper dividers so no cyclist could go on the wrong side of the road, roundabouts instead of junctions, and was pretty much empty of a weekend.


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    #385
    fondriest
    Registered Users Posts: 657 ✭✭✭fondriest


    lennymc wrote: »
    They would be pretty cool. most industrial estates are empty at weekends. A boardsie was talking about this to me recently and was saying that one particular estate he had in mind had a one way system, with proper dividers so no cyclist could go on the wrong side of the road, roundabouts instead of junctions, and was pretty much empty of a weekend.

    Waterford racing hold a brilliant series of crits on an industrial estate. I've only done a couple but enjoyable :eek: and tough.


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    #386
    Harrybelafonte
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,450 ✭✭✭Harrybelafonte


    buffalo wrote: »
    Having marshalled at a few of those in Sandyford, they seemed to attract even more local heat than road races.

    Sandyford is a bit more of a through road than most industrial estates though? Also has a mix of retail.


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    #387
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,268 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Harrybelafonte wrote: »
    May not have a choice though. In all honesty, how do other countries run their races?

    I don't have massive knowledge of how races are run internationally. But from what I've seen, Spain is similar to here for amateur races. No road closure orders, marshals on junctions etc.

    Belgium has the advantage of it being almost the national support. So race organisers will have plenty of goodwill from the local authorities. And also probably get plenty of sponsorship money from local businesses to cover costs.

    UK seems kind of grim, at least going by the reports from one clubmate who's emigrated. Pre-entry required, lots of races on motor race tracks etc.


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    #388
    bcmf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,679 ✭✭✭bcmf


    lennymc wrote: »
    They would be pretty cool. most industrial estates are empty at weekends. A boardsie was talking about this to me recently and was saying that one particular estate he had in mind had a one way system, with proper dividers so no cyclist could go on the wrong side of the road, roundabouts instead of junctions, and was pretty much empty of a weekend.

    The main problem with the area I mentioned is that it is in Fingal but not sure if the same super is in control of that area. It's the new-ish link road from The N2,south if Ashbourne and it can go all the way around to close to the Junction with Clonee on the N3.Most of that road has dividers between the carriageway's and could be run without coming across any housing of note.


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    #389
    Kav0777
    Registered Users Posts: 549 ✭✭✭Kav0777


    lennymc wrote: »
    ^^^ It's motor tax

    I think cramcyle's pedant-o-meter has just exploded :D


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    #390
    wav1
    Registered Users Posts: 1,906 ✭✭✭wav1


    bcmf wrote: »
    The main problem with the area I mentioned is that it is in Fingal but not sure if the same super is in control of that area. It's the new-ish link road from The N2,south if Ashbourne and it can go all the way around to close to the Junction with Clonee on the N3.Most of that road has dividers between the carriageway's and could be run without coming across any housing of note.
    Believe me mate..You could not have picked a worse area to discuss running a race given the way ''issues'' have developed over the past 48 hours.As they say watch this space,but sometimes I feel we are banging our heads off a wall to try and facilitate running events for the sport we love,especially with f...k all guidance or leadership from where it should be coming.


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    #391
    greenmat
    Registered Users Posts: 581 ✭✭✭greenmat


    wav1 wrote: »
    Believe me mate..You could not have picked a worse area to discuss running a race given the way ''issues'' have developed over the past 48 hours.As they say watch this space,but sometimes I feel we are banging our heads off a wall to try and facilitate running events for the sport we love,especially with f...k all guidance or leadership from where it should be coming.

    Grenade into the room time, :mad:


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