M3 - destined to be ghost road?

munchkin_utd · 25-03-2008 4:34pm #1

It has just struck me.
Will anyone use the M3 at all once it is built? Will the toll simply drive people onto other non tolled options?

At a rounded fiver a day on tolls, over 48 working weeks thats 1200 for your commuter. If its 8 euro return its almost 2k just on tolls.

On top of this you still have to pay for your car and the ever increasing cost of petrol.

And the alternatives are there to avoid paying the toll:
- The old N3 will still be in place
- The N2 dual carraigeway is only a handfull of km from Navan
- Coming from further afield i.e. Cavan/ Donegal, and if you are heading to south dublin then the old N4(untolled) + untolled section of M4 is another free way of getting to Dublin PLUS you are avoiding the traffic at Blanchardstown.

No matter how you look at it, who will actually use this road on a daily basis and pay through the nose for it?

And did the feasibility study for the road actually take into consideration that many people will avoid using the road, detered by the cost of the toll?

Is there anyone here who uses the N3 on a daily basis going to shell out approx 2 grand a year in tolls?

25-03-2008 4:45pm

For many time is money, they can easily get back that fiver in time, I frequently use the M4 and have noticed that initially a large number of conmmuters boycotted it, but more recently it's use had steadily increased.
It seems that the saving of 15-20 minutes each way as well as not being stuck behind lorries is worth it for many.

MCMLXXXIII · 25-03-2008 4:46pm

That's probably the whole point.

I went to Los Angeles on vacation once. LA is infamous for its traffic problems, and the media does not exaggerate. Most of their [Expressways] are like quadruple carriageways - one inside the other. The inside was a tollway, and the outside was like a regular free motorway. During the off hours, the inside toll was $2. During peak hours, the toll was $10. The reason is to keep the center roadway somewhat clear for those that are willing (or in enough of a hurry) to pay the extra money.

I disagree with that policy (and tolls in general), but that’s how it works. Do you think that’s what they are trying to do with the M-3? You are probably right – many people will take other, free routes…and it will keep the M-3 clear for those that are willing to shell out an extra €2000 per year to use it.

serfboard · 25-03-2008 6:36pm

Deleted User wrote: »

For many time is money, they can easily get back that fiver in time, I frequently use the M4 and have noticed that initially a large number of conmmuters boycotted it, but more recently it's use had steadily increased.
It seems that the saving of 15-20 minutes each way as well as not being stuck behind lorries is worth it for many.

That's been my experience as well - the old road is now 80 kph with slowing down to 50 kph through the towns, whereas you can go a steady 120 kph on the new, tolled, motorway. I think it's a question of balancing frustrations - the time frustration versus the financial frustration.

Anyway, aren't "market forces" operating here - surely the crowd that has the M3 concession have done their homework (and presumably borrowed a lot of money) on what toll to charge? I would suggest that they'll find out soon enough if the toll charge is too high.

buckfast4me · 25-03-2008 6:42pm

Also, I use the m50 all the time and never pay the toll. Just get off an exit before the toll - will this be an option on the m3?

Victor · 25-03-2008 7:43pm

buckfast4me wrote: »

Also, I use the m50 all the time and never pay the toll. Just get off an exit before the toll - will this be an option on the m3?

Sure. But you'll have to use the old road and go through the towns.

RadioCity · 25-03-2008 9:29pm

buckfast4me wrote: »

Also, I use the m50 all the time and never pay the toll. Just get off an exit before the toll - will this be an option on the m3?

They were quite clever on the M1. The biggest problem for motorists was probably Drogheda and therefore most wanted to avoid it.
It is technically impossible to cross the M1 Boyne Bridge without coughing up for the toll. You can leave by the by the previous exit to the main toll northbound and go into Drogheda. Southbound you have to leave by the second exit before the main toll at the exit immediately before the main toll is tolled as well!!

I'd be very surprised if any M3 toll wasn't placed in such a way as being much more preferable to the alternative of driving through a town en route.

Irish and Proud · 25-03-2008 9:47pm

buckfast4me wrote: »

Also, I use the m50 all the time and never pay the toll. Just get off an exit before the toll - will this be an option on the m3?

So you'd go via Chapelizod or Lucan (plus many a goat track either way) just to avoid paying the Westlink Toll. Now don't get me wrong - I've no time for that Westlink crowd, but would you not be spending more than €2 on car wear and petrol each time. On the other hand, maybe you don't cross the Liffey too often, which in that case, would be very handy indeed!

Just a thought!

icdg · 25-03-2008 10:25pm

The (two) tolls on the M50 (West-Link and DPT) are different to every other toll motorway in the state in that you are only hit with the toll at a fixed point on the motorway. On the M50 you can avoid the toll by leaving at J6 and re-entering the motorway at J7, altough given that the "alternative route" is through half the suburbs of west Dublin rather than being a simple journey down a relatively good former N-road discourages that!

The other toll motorways are different, in that the section of road is tolled, not a fixed point. For example, on the M4, J8-J12 is tolled. It is impossible to use any strech of this road without getting hit with the toll. The mainline toll plaza is just west of J8, however, if you are travelling eastbound, and try to leave at J9 to avoid the mainline toll plaza, you get hit with the toll on the off-ramp! Likewise if you exit at J8 to avoid the toll, and try to join the road again at J9, you'll be hit with the toll on the on-slip. Similar arrangements are in place on the M1 and M8, and no-doubt will be on the M3 as well.

Chris_533976 · 26-03-2008 4:32pm

Plus certain junctions near the tolls that themselves arent tolled are restricted with movements missing to avoid toll dodgers.

Although I disagree with tolls, I'd use most of them for speed reasons.

For instance the Limerick N7 tunnel toll I'll use because sitting in traffic for an hour in Limerick is worth paying to avoid.

The future M7/M8 toll around Portlaoise I'll probobly dodge by going the old N8 through Abbeyleix etc.

Colm R · 26-03-2008 5:36pm

Chris_533976 wrote: »

Plus certain junctions near the tolls that themselves arent tolled are restricted with movements missing to avoid toll dodgers.

Although I disagree with tolls, I'd use most of them for speed reasons.

For instance the Limerick N7 tunnel toll I'll use because sitting in traffic for an hour in Limerick is worth paying to avoid.

The future M7/M8 toll around Portlaoise I'll probobly dodge by going the old N8 through Abbeyleix etc.

I think there will be a similar situation here where if you choose to leave the M7 at Port Laosie (current exit for Cork), you will have to travel to after Culahill to avoid paying the toll.

Also, its remebering that when towns are bypassed, they become less car friendly with pedestrianisation. While I have misgivings about tolled roads and the M3 also, Kells is one town which will benifit hugely from a bypass. Why, because it is simply one of the worst towns I have ever seen for walking around.

Metrobest · 26-03-2008 5:57pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

It has just struck me.
Will anyone use the M3 at all once it is built? Will the toll simply drive people onto other non tolled options?

Is there anyone here who uses the N3 on a daily basis going to shell out approx 2 grand a year in tolls?

1) Yes the M3 is viable otherwise the private sector would not touch the project with a plastic fork.

2) It's not sustainable for people to use the M3 on a daily basis. There are no easy solutions but one of them has to involve people making more realistic choices about how they work and live, be that telecommuting or choosing a lower paid job closer to home.

The dream of country living and city working is just that: a dream.

The government are to blame for their disgusting planning policies, but so are the people whose dream it is to own their own semiD with a garden. You bought the semi D in Navan cos it was cheaper, now you want to pollute the environment by driving your Nissan into the heart of congested Dublin every day, and then you want the rest of the Irish taxpayers who didn't make irresponsible living choices to fund a motorway which would never have been needed were it not for the horrible development that took place along that corridor, so you can save on tolls. See the logic?

So yes, the toll is the price that needs to be paid. And it's low by European standards.

(ps.,I don't mean you personally)

Colm R · 26-03-2008 6:21pm

Metrobest wrote: »

1) Yes the M3 is viable otherwise the private sector would not touch the project with a plastic fork.

2) It's not sustainable for people to use the M3 on a daily basis. There are no easy solutions but one of them has to involve people making more realistic choices about how they work and live, be that telecommuting or choosing a lower paid job closer to home.

The dream of country living and city working is just that: a dream.

The government are to blame for their disgusting planning policies, but so are the people whose dream it is to own their own semiD with a garden. You bought the semi D in Navan cos it was cheaper, now you want to pollute the environment by driving your Nissan into the heart of congested Dublin every day, and then you want the rest of the Irish taxpayers who didn't make irresponsible living choices to fund a motorway which would never have been needed were it not for the horrible development that took place along that corridor, so you can save on tolls. See the logic?

So yes, the toll is the price that needs to be paid. And it's low by European standards.

(ps.,I don't mean you personally)

I do agree with you. But I would point out that Navan is not a huge commuting distance by European standards. We just don't have the European standards of transport centered on the "PUBLIC".

Bad planning, greedy developers, country living - city life etc have all brought us to where we are - up sh*t creek, with a paddle.

I can't blame people (Dubs) for wanting to move out to unsustainable suburbs and the Navans of this world. Dublin City is not liveable with a very poor quality of life for those that want to stay there. And I am not talking about people who rent in the city for a few years, and get married and move on. I am talking about people who would live and settle there.

Chris_533976 · 27-03-2008 12:32am

In other countries you might get a smaller N3 upgrade (S2 or 2+1) with the Navan Rail opened. Tho people wouldnt complain about buying train tickets. Although tolling is a bit unnecessary at the best of times, it gets a lot more anger from people than paying a railway ticket every day.

In any case, the M3 is a disgraceful development with the stalling, lies and general hoopla thats been going on with Navan rail. (and indeed Midleton in Cork)

D'Peoples Voice · 27-03-2008 2:08pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

It has just struck me.
Will anyone use the M3 at all once it is built? Will the toll simply drive people onto other non tolled options?

At a rounded fiver a day on tolls, over 48 working weeks thats 1200 for your commuter. If its 8 euro return its almost 2k just on tolls.

you're just trolling aren't you?
A fiver a day? you would want to be travelling on it daily to pay that,
and the route is NOT being built for commuters,
It's a bypass for traffic to get from Dublin to the North West!
So couriers etc would not be travelling twice on a daily basis between Dublin and the North West.
Therefore you need to amend your calculations for those people for whom the road IS BEING BUILT for and not for commuters!
Your argument is akin to saying; isn't the new Janguar XK a bit expensive given the single mother allowance is only EUR X per month.

Metrobest · 27-03-2008 9:19pm

Colm R wrote: »

I do agree with you. But I would point out that Navan is not a huge commuting distance by European standards. We just don't have the European standards of transport centered on the "PUBLIC".

Bad planning, greedy developers, country living - city life etc have all brought us to where we are - up sh*t creek, with a paddle.

I can't blame people (Dubs) for wanting to move out to unsustainable suburbs and the Navans of this world. Dublin City is not liveable with a very poor quality of life for those that want to stay there. And I am not talking about people who rent in the city for a few years, and get married and move on. I am talking about people who would live and settle there.

I know Navan is not a huge commuting distance from Dublin, but comparing it to European capitals of similar size must also take into account the differences in population and density. What we're talking about in Navan is a large in-flow of cars into Dublin for 2 hours x 5 mornings per week, and an out-flow for 2 hours x 5 evenings per week. The current two lane road cannot cope with this traffic volume, however the M3 easily will, catering for any traffic increases that might occur along that corridor. Then much of the debate about the Navan rail link loses relevence.

In relation to the viability of a rail link, Navan scores poorly. The "Navans" of continental European cities are employment hubs in their own right like Sitges-Barcelona or Haarlem-Amsterdam, with populations of c.100,000 in an environment several times denser than Navan.

The dream of the train as "cure" to Navan's planning ills is just that: a dream. Even with a rail link those same folks sitting in their cars today on the N3 are going to be driving to the train station to board an infrequent train. Matched against the M3 which will offer them a speedier connection and an upgraded m50, how successful do you reallly think a rail could be? And would it be sustainable to build a rail link that would essentially be a ghost line outside peak hours?

graduate · 27-03-2008 9:41pm

There will one huge jam in Blanchardstown, which may be made worse by the M3 delivering the traffic all the quicker. A train would bring you into town, it will take a long time to get from the M3 to Westland Row.

spacetweek · 28-03-2008 1:13am

Metrobest wrote: »

Matched against the M3 which will offer them a speedier connection and an upgraded m50, how successful do you reallly think a rail could be? And would it be sustainable to build a rail link that would essentially be a ghost line outside peak hours?

The M3 isn't gonna make driving to Dublin any easier at all. There is no plan to widen the N3 M50-Clonee to 6 lanes which will be needed. The drive from Navan to Clonee will take far less time than the drive from Clonee to the city centre. If the rail link will be empty outside peak hours, due to low travel demand during the day and in the evening, then it's a certainty the road will be the same though there seems to be no delay in getting the road finished.

Even Phase 1 of the rail link has been delayed to death and is only starting work at the end of this year. If the line the whole way to Navan is ever built it will take until at least 2015 and probably more.

Ham'nd'egger · 28-03-2008 1:33am

spacetweek wrote: »

Even Phase 1 of the rail link has been delayed to death and is only starting work at the end of this year. If the line the whole way to Navan is ever built it will take until at least 2015 and probably more.

Phase one actually started quite a long time ago; Irish Rail began clearing the site at Clonsilla junction and at other sites towards Pace last year. Planning permission was granted about 2 months ago for the line. I'd expect track laying itself to begin after the autumn.

ga2re2t · 28-03-2008 4:01pm

Slightly off-topic, but are there any motorway tolls in Ireland that charge per distance travelled instead of a single price for an individual section of motorway? For example, if I join the M4 tolled section at Kilcock it'll cost me 2.70 euros just to go to Enfield and the same 2.70 euros to go to Kinnegad.

I don't mean to be whining so much, but over here in France I usually get charged as a function of distance travelled. There are toll plazas at either end of the long motorway stretch and toll booths at the intermediate junction on and off-ramps. Entering the motorway you collect a ticket so that your point of entry is recorded.

It's still quite expensive though - about 1 euro per 10 km - so a stretch from say Athlone to Dublin costs about 10 euros one-way.

Colm R · 28-03-2008 4:25pm

Is it true that France has no motor tax. So therefore you are paying for what use use.

Victor · 28-03-2008 5:56pm

ga2re2t wrote: »

Slightly off-topic, but are there any motorway tolls in Ireland that charge per distance travelled instead of a single price for an individual section of motorway? For example, if I join the M4 tolled section at Kilcock it'll cost me 2.70 euros just to go to Enfield and the same 2.70 euros to go to Kinnegad.

No, all are effectively single charge, single point/section tolls.

Most long journeys will have only one or two tolls.

Very long journeys (Cork-Drogheda) might have up to four.

1huge1 · 28-03-2008 7:52pm

Victor wrote: »

No, all are effectively single charge, single point/section tolls.

Most long journeys will have only one or two tolls.

Very long journeys (Cork-Drogheda) might have up to four.

Id rather have a single charge because knowing the way things are run here we would probably end up paying more if it was down to a distance basis.

Am I right in that thinking?

Victor · 28-03-2008 8:55pm

Tolling only one point on a route probably makes it too tempting for people to bypass the toll.

If you tolled entire routes, you would have a huge number of motorway exits* to put tolls booth on and I can see it being more expensive. As things are, they are relatively straight forward.

* One for everyone in the audience.

SeanW · 28-03-2008 11:57pm

As I understand it, there will be two toll plazas. One just South of Navan, the other just North of the M3 Park and Ride.

Clearly designed to soak Navan commuters.

It is for this reason, among others, that I doubt the Navan railway will ever be built.

mysterious · 29-03-2008 7:30pm

This will not be a ghost road.

Because it was designed to further aggravate the urban sprawl in Meath.

Just as the M7 did too Kildare 10 years ago. Only this time the difference will be, you'll be paying to use the M3.

Actually the government are not so stupid afterall.

Next question, but how come it won't be a ghost road??

1.This road is designed to take higher volumes than any of the inter urbans. its a wide median motorway with wider lanes. design capacity of 55,000, no new inter urban is designed for this amount. check it out on the NRA website design manual.

2. It has more closer together junctions and higher capacity junctions along its route.

3. There are countless number's of spur's that connect to nearly all the urbans centre's and the entire populatation of meath!
Even Trim and Dunboyne have dedicated roads to connect to the M3.

4. The motorway itself is connecting to one of ireland's biggest and fastest growing sprawl, Navan.

I'm sure there are more reasons if you really look at it.

L1011 · 29-03-2008 7:34pm

Currently no, and not planned either. The split toll on the M3 will be the closest to it.

Navan Junction · 31-03-2008 11:19pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Will anyone use the M3 at all once it is built?

Yes, it will be heavily patronised

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Will the toll simply drive people onto other non tolled options?....If its 8 euro return its almost 2k just on tolls.

Not nessessarily. The toll will be about 1.30 or so.

Regarding the use of the 'old' N3, the best comparison is with the old N2/new N(M effectively)2.

There is no toll but the old N2 is still very busy and garages along the route are busier than ever.

This is partly because there is not a huge time differential between the old and new road, and with reduced traffic it is busy but moves fine.

The old N3 will still be popular as even though the M3 will be 20mph faster in terms of speed limits between Navan and Dunshaughlin, it will however be 2.5km longer than the existing N3.

This section will be untolled however, so it'll probably be a matter of preference like the traffic patterns on the N2/M2 (defacto M2)

munchkin_utd wrote: »

No matter how you look at it, who will actually use this road on a daily basis and pay through the nose for it?

Everybody that lives along the route will use it at some point

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Is there anyone here who uses the N3 on a daily basis going to shell out approx 2 grand a year in tolls?

Yes, anyone who can afford it. And people that can't afford will use it too if they are in a hurry, which by the rat race nature of commuting is most commuters on a daily basis

Navan Junction · 31-03-2008 11:28pm

SeanW wrote: »

As I understand it, there will be two toll plazas. One just South of Navan, the other just North of the M3 Park and Ride.

Not far wrong. There will be one toll in the field north of the Blackbull junction where the Trim and Ratoath roads join the N3.

The other toll will be just north of Navan, rather than south

Navan Junction · 31-03-2008 11:37pm

SeanW wrote: »

It is for this reason, among others, that I doubt the Navan railway will ever be built.

Not nessessarily. The railway is about politics and the greening of the govt may play a roll, as well as climate change commitments.

The other point is that the M3 and railway would do very different things. The road will get you to Blanch quickly, but not through it. The railway will get you to the City Centre very quickly.

They both do very different things, but the jury is out as to whether it will be built. The past does not bide well for the future, but as mentioned above, it is the political climate that that decides railway issues.

Even with the M3, IÉ's consulants came back with patronage figures that would half fill Hueston on a daily basis. That would lead you to believe that there will be a clear market for both the road (tolls and all) and the railway.

However, I doubt we'll see the tranformation of Meath/Cavan from Public Transport Wasteland to Transport Paradise any time soon. However, the good news is that we'll still have the busiest bus services on the Bus Éireann network

L1011 · 31-03-2008 11:38pm

Navan Junction wrote: »

There is no toll but the old N2 is still very busy and garages along the route are busier than ever.

Believe it killed off The Barrow between Ratoath and the N2, though. Was known for being cheap enough IIRC and people travelled off the N2 to get to it, suddenly went from a mile to 3 or 4 miles round trip from the junction.

M3 - destined to be ghost road?

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