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Gardai now wearing personal video recording devices !

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    #32
    BenEadir
    Registered Users Posts: 4,539 ✭✭✭BenEadir


    kub wrote: »
    I thought the very title of these threads was a give away, ' Emergency Services'.
    Same way that there are plumbers in the plumbing section and electricians in the electrical section.
    So yes there are serving Garda members in this forum.

    I've no doubt there are serving Guards here just as there are professional footballers in the Soccer threads but which posters are Guards and which posters are BS artists?


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    #33
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    The difference between officially managed and distributed cameras and personal cameras worn by Gardai is huge.

    Official cameras would come with official procedures. Images would be retained for fixed amounts of time, under appropriate controls. The Garda who wore the camera would not be able to edit the recorded clip, and choose which bits of the clip to keep and which to destroy.

    Personal cameras would be managed by the individual Garda, and would be retained, deleted or edited at their discretion. They would be available to any of their housemates who can work out the Garda's personal laptop password (if any such password in place).

    Personal cameras would be a huge concern.


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    #34
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    RainyDay wrote: »
    The difference between officially managed and distributed cameras and personal cameras worn by Gardai is huge.

    Official cameras would come with official procedures. Images would be retained for fixed amounts of time, under appropriate controls. The Garda who wore the camera would not be able to edit the recorded clip, and choose which bits of the clip to keep and which to destroy.

    Personal cameras would be managed by the individual Garda, and would be retained, deleted or edited at their discretion. They would be available to any of their housemates who can work out the Garda's personal laptop password (if any such password in place).

    Personal cameras would be a huge concern.

    Seriously?.. I sure hope no gardai wash their uniform at home if they are living in shared accommodation. There's nothing there to stop a housemate dressing up and doing a checkpoint when the garda is out.


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    #35
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    bravestar wrote: »
    Seriously?.. I sure hope no gardai wash their uniform at home if they are living in shared accommodation. There's nothing there to stop a housemate dressing up and doing a checkpoint when the garda is out.

    It's a bit different having a look at some pictures / videos on a shared laptop than it is to dress up as a garda and pretend to be one.

    I think it's a good idea for them to have cameras but I'd prefer if they were official too. You can see on the protest videos that they're edited to make the protesters look good e.g. just show the bit where a gard is grabbing a protester and conveniently not showing the bit where the protester was performing the actions that meant the gard had to get physical.

    A personal camera on a garda could work the same way around. If it's a personal device then certain videos could be deleted by the gard. It's human nature. If the device was official and not capable of being tampering with then maybe the video could be used as evidence by both sides.


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    #36
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    bravestar wrote: »
    Seriously?.. I sure hope no gardai wash their uniform at home if they are living in shared accommodation. There's nothing there to stop a housemate dressing up and doing a checkpoint when the garda is out.

    The key difference is of course that dressing up on someone else's uniform and 'doing a checkpoint' is a very public act. It would be pretty hard to do with a garda car, garda lights and other garda paraphanalia too. But the specifics aren't really important. The general point is more important. Personal videos taken by a garda during the course of their work are not securely controlled. How long will it take before they end up on YouTube? Or You've Been Framed? And who gets to edit?

    I'd be very happy to see Gardai get proper cameras for their own safety, and for the material recorded to be safely retained and archived, out of the control of that individual Garda.

    Personal cameras are a very different story. Gardai deal with very sensitive and very personal situations, and these should not be recorded for personal use.


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    #37
    bravestar
    Registered Users Posts: 1,082 ✭✭✭bravestar


    RainyDay wrote: »

    Personal cameras are a very different story. Gardai deal with very sensitive and very personal situations, and these should not be recorded for personal use.

    Thanks, you obviously know far more about being a Garda than silly ole me does.

    The positives of wearing a camera far out weigh the negatives and regardless of who provides them, they are a good idea. Aside from the usual criminals, the only people I can see disliking it are the "professional" protesters, who won't be able to edit it.

    Oh and if it was to used as evidence, it would have to be an unedited master copy on the original recording media. Showing before, during and after the incident if it existed. Gardai don't get to play around with editing software and throw in star wipes wherever they want.

    Lastly, do you really think any Garda brings their work home anymore, to do when they are not getting paid for it? Those days are long gone.


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    #38
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    bravestar wrote: »
    Thanks, you obviously know far more about being a Garda than silly ole me does.
    I think he does about the issues with personal cameras anyway.
    bravestar wrote: »
    Aside from the usual criminals, the only people I can see disliking it are the "professional" protesters, who won't be able to edit it.
    Maybe it'll make the protesters cop on a bit. I think Gards having a recording device is a great idea. While a personal device is better than nothing, it's not a great solution. Maybe the battery will run out because it's a cheap personal device or the Gard will forget to turn it on. The expense is covered by the Gard I suppose so I'd guess that something that could record HQ for the full length of a shift in darkness and light and be waterproof would be pricey.
    It'd be better if these were proper official untamperable devices that had to be turned in and archived at the end of a shift. I think that's the point that you missed.
    This is Ireland though so I'd imagine we don't have budget for it or it'll take 20 years to study and cost millions.
    bravestar wrote: »
    Oh and if it was to used as evidence, it would have to be an unedited master copy on the original recording media. Showing before, during and after the incident if it existed.
    Sure. And how do you prove it's an unedited master copy on the original recording media if it's a personal device? It's easy to put video onto these devices and change the date / time of the media.
    bravestar wrote: »
    Lastly, do you really think any Garda brings their work home anymore, to do when they are not getting paid for it? Those days are long gone.
    If its their personal device they can bring it wherever they want or lose it. I take it these devices aren't encrypted so one found device would have a load of interesting video on it.


    I think personal cameras on Gards are better than nothing. I also think one Gard uploading a video of an incident to Facebook / Youtube is going to get them banned. All it needs is one idiot.


    Edit: Here's one that is apparently worn by other police forces. http://www.vievu.com/vievu-store/vievu-store-le3/


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    #39
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    The other fella wrote: »
    We would also see the number of legitimate complaints plummet as the Guards would just record what suits them, making it harder for them to be held accountable for their misconduct.
    Mandatory cameras would not operate in this way, as others have pointed out. The devices would be fully logged and encrypted, tampering with the device or switching it off mid-shift would be a disciplinary matter.

    Besides, I'm not sure how "legitimate" complaints can plummet if they record what suits them. Lack of a recording does not mean that something did not occur.
    RainyDay wrote: »
    Personal cameras would be a huge concern.
    timetogo wrote: »
    If its their personal device they can bring it wherever they want or lose it. I take it these devices aren't encrypted so one found device would have a load of interesting video on it.

    I think personal cameras on Gards are better than nothing. I also think one Gard uploading a video of an incident to Facebook / Youtube is going to get them banned. All it needs is one idiot.
    Personal cameras are better than nothing provided that they are used properly. Recording what occurs in public, fine. Even if someone else gets that footage, no problem, it's a public recording.

    The issue is when a Garda is using one during a protest, and then forgets to turn it off. He accidentally records everything said in the squad car back to the station, everything going on in the station, and everything that happens in private places like when they enter someone's home (ever for benign reasons).

    He goes home, plugs it into his laptop, it automatically syncs to the home media server or whatever, and then we suddenly have a big fncking problem because others may have access to that server.

    Or even simpler; he has it on while on the beat, chatting along to his partner. Finds Anto, gets in a scuffle arresting Anto and the camera falls off without him noticing. Anto's mate Johnno picks it up and slips it in his pocket, and suddenly he now has all of the operational information the two Garda were talking about for the last half an hour while walking around.

    So if personal cameras are used, they have to be used very specifically, which is why in reality they're a bad idea. Handheld video cameras are a better idea, visibility aside it's hard to "accidentally" film stuff you don't intend to.


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    #40
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    bravestar wrote: »
    The positives of wearing a camera far out weigh the negatives and regardless of who provides them, they are a good idea. Aside from the usual criminals, the only people I can see disliking it are the "professional" protesters, who won't be able to edit it.
    TimeToGo and Seamus have covered most of my concerns, but just to answer this particularl point:

    I'm not a criminal, usual or otherwise, and I'm not a protester, 'professional' or otherwise. I dislike the idea of Gardai wearing personal cameras.


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    #41
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,430 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    RainyDay wrote: »
    TimeToGo and Seamus have covered most of my concerns, but just to answer this particularl point:

    I'm not a criminal, usual or otherwise, and I'm not a protester, 'professional' or otherwise. I dislike the idea of Gardai wearing personal cameras.

    But you have no problem.l with the thousands of cctv cameras that capture your every move every day of the week?


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    #42
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »
    But you have no problem.l with the thousands of cctv cameras that capture your every move every day of the week?

    I have various degrees of problems with various of those cameras. However, they are not operated by the force with the statutory role of protecting the citizens. They do not routinely record situations of the most sensitive nature, like child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence, violent crimes. They are operated by businesses, under the regulations set out by the Data Protection Commissioner.

    Big difference....

    If this comes across as an anti-Garda position, you are misinterpreting me. It is completely the opposite. I'd be very happy for Garda to have official cameras, with appropriate controls around how the material is retained.


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    #43
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RainyDay wrote: »
    I have various degrees of problems with various of those cameras. However, they are not operated by the force with the statutory role of protecting the citizens. They do not routinely record situations of the most sensitive nature, like child abuse, sexual abuse, domestic violence, violent crimes. They are operated by businesses, under the regulations set out by the Data Protection Commissioner.

    Big difference....

    If this comes across as an anti-Garda position, you are misinterpreting me. It is completely the opposite. I'd be very happy for Garda to have official cameras, with appropriate controls around how the material is retained.

    Data protection rules apply to the Gardaí.


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    #44
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    foreign wrote: »
    Data protection rules apply to the Gardaí.

    Kinda hard to enforce the rules if the devices in question are personal, not declared, not known to senior officers and have no rules or policies around their use.


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    #45
    3fullback
    Registered Users Posts: 825 ✭✭✭3fullback


    The device in question is near $800 in cost. Would Gardai really invest this much themselves ?

    http://www.vievu.com/vievu-store/vievu-store-le3/


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    #46
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    3fullback wrote: »
    The device in question is near $800 in cost. Would Gardai really invest this much themselves ?

    http://www.vievu.com/vievu-store/vievu-store-le3/

    There are slightly cheaper versions available;

    http://www.dhgate.com/product/mini-spy-button-dv-high-definition-camera/171263194.html#s1-9-1|206396355

    Probably not the same quality as the $800 ones, but probably quite usable all the same.


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    #47
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    3fullback wrote: »
    The device in question is near $800 in cost. Would Gardai really invest this much themselves ?

    http://www.vievu.com/vievu-store/vievu-store-le3/

    I suppose that depends on how badly they've been targeted by frivolous complaints in the past. Bit I'd imagine they'd go with cheaper versions.


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    #48
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RainyDay wrote: »
    Kinda hard to enforce the rules if the devices in question are personal, not declared, not known to senior officers and have no rules or policies around their use.

    The Garda is clearly identifiable. I'm guessing the DPC has rules for a person capturing data while working? Probably the same for taxi drivers operating cameras in their cars.


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    #49
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    foreign wrote: »
    The Garda is clearly identifiable.
    But the camera isn't clearly identifiable.

    Is the Garda carrying the personal camera going to tell every person that they come into contact with about the camera, and how the person can get access to the relevant material on request? Get real.


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    #50
    irishrgr
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭irishrgr


    Question: Do the Gardaí not have camera's in their cars at least? I don't ever recall seeing them. As you guys know, there are very commonplace over here. In Texas, it's state law that all vehicles used for patrol policing MUST have a video/audio recording device. Ours have the two way system, it's always on, records to a hard drive in the boot that only a supervisor can access. Our SGT can even remote into our camera and see what we see from his/her car. It records:

    - when emergency lights/siren are activated
    - car goes over 66 MPG
    - on any impact to the car/hard braking forces
    - officer activation

    It also saves the last three minutes of audio/video before the activation (to record actions/conversation before an accident say). On camera faces forward, the other shows the inside (active for all prisoner transports to document all transports in the event of a complaint of abuse). We wear a small transmitter on our belts to capture the audio up to 75ft from the car.

    It's brilliant, shows the whole event, jury's love them, especially for drunk driving cases or use of force issues. Hard for the defense to argue with video of the suspect being a dickhead and fighting the police.

    Some of our lads have started wearing small video recorders on their uniform (personal purchase) which they activate when away from the car, more protection for officers. SWAT has started wearing Gopro camera on their helmets too. Again, it's all admitted as evidence on the case and it's great protection against allegations of excessive force.

    In a public place, there is no requirement to notify of being recorded. I expect as the technology gets cheaper, in a few years body cameras will be as common as patrol car video systems.


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    #51
    donvito99
    Registered Users Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    irishrgr wrote: »
    - car goes over 66 MPG

    In order to ruthlessly stamp out fuel efficiency. Don't mess with Texas.


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    #52
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RainyDay wrote: »
    But the camera isn't clearly identifiable.

    Is the Garda carrying the personal camera going to tell every person that they come into contact with about the camera, and how the person can get access to the relevant material on request? Get real.

    Never noticed any of that information in any private business, shopping centre, bus, train, etc.

    My point is, Garda shoulder numbers are unique so the request can be sent through the station.

    I'm not arguing with you, just trying to find out as you seem to be putting yourself forward as an expert in data protection.


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    #53
    slavik
    Registered Users Posts: 11 ✭slavik


    I think the use of body cam cctv by the Gardaí is a great step forward for the organisation. I previously worked in a specialist security role and found that the use of the body cam was a major deterrent for some of the undesirables I was dealing with plus it kept all of our staff in line and ensured nobody was acting the maggot. I would definitely like to see the Gardaí deploy body cams for all general policing operations.


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    #54
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    foreign wrote: »
    Never noticed any of that information in any private business, shopping centre, bus, train, etc.

    Here it is.
    http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Data-Protection-CCTV/242.htm

    This can usually be achieved by placing easily- read and well-lit signs in prominent positions. A sign at all entrances will normally suffice. ....
    Any person whose image is recorded on a CCTV system has a right to seek and be supplied with a copy of their own personal data from the footage. To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. The data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days.
    foreign wrote: »
    My point is, Garda shoulder numbers are unique so the request can be sent through the station.

    How does that conversation go?
    Me - "Hi Gard, officer 402 recorded me the other day can I have the video please".

    Possible responses

    - We don't record people,
    - I don't have access to the video as it was on his personal camera.
    - Gard 402 says that the camera was turned off, faulty or the video was deleted and I've no way of proving otherwise.


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    #55
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    foreign wrote: »
    Never noticed any of that information in any private business, shopping centre, bus, train, etc.

    My point is, Garda shoulder numbers are unique so the request can be sent through the station.

    I'm not arguing with you, just trying to find out as you seem to be putting yourself forward as an expert in data protection.

    I'm far from an expert, but I know a bit about it. As other posters have said, I know that with CCTV, you're supposed to have a notice up, and you're supposed to have a process for providing a copy of the video on request of any person in the video.

    How's that going to work for a Garda's personal camera?


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    #56
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    timetogo wrote: »
    Here it is.
    http://www.dataprotection.ie/docs/Data-Protection-CCTV/242.htm

    This can usually be achieved by placing easily- read and well-lit signs in prominent positions. A sign at all entrances will normally suffice. ....
    Any person whose image is recorded on a CCTV system has a right to seek and be supplied with a copy of their own personal data from the footage. To exercise that right, a person must make an application in writing. The data controller may charge up to €6.35 for responding to such a request and must respond within 40 days.



    How does that conversation go?
    Me - "Hi Gard, officer 402 recorded me the other day can I have the video please".

    Possible responses

    - We don't record people,
    - I don't have access to the video as it was on his personal camera.
    - Gard 402 says that the camera was turned off, faulty or the video was deleted and I've no way of proving otherwise.

    Request it in writing from their superintendent. If it's private I'm sure they'll be quick to tell. And I'm guessing the DPC would have answers regarding any personal cameras.


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    #57
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    RainyDay wrote: »
    I'm far from an expert, but I know a bit about it. As other posters have said, I know that with CCTV, you're supposed to have a notice up, and you're supposed to have a process for providing a copy of the video on request of any person in the video.

    How's that going to work for a Garda's personal camera?

    I've no idea, timetogo has posted about the cctv notice, is there anything there about personal video cameras? I've only looked before for information 're a taxi driver recording as I believed that he was trying to make me say something a particular way.


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    #58
    timetogo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 990 ✭✭✭timetogo


    foreign wrote: »
    I've no idea, timetogo has posted about the cctv notice, is there anything there about personal video cameras? I've only looked before for information 're a taxi driver recording as I believed that he was trying to make me say something a particular way.

    Ah now you're getting complicated. It's a personal video camera used in the course of business.

    If you asked the DPC about that he'd probably explode.


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    #59
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    timetogo wrote: »
    Ah now you're getting complicated. It's a personal video camera used in the course of business.

    If you asked the DPC about that he'd probably explode.

    :D


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    #60
    RainyDay
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,925 ✭✭✭RainyDay


    foreign wrote: »
    Request it in writing from their superintendent. If it's private I'm sure they'll be quick to tell. And I'm guessing the DPC would have answers regarding any personal cameras.

    How will I know that I've been recorded? How will the Supt know? How long will the Garda retain copies of the videos for dealing with enquires? How will the Garda keep these copies secure?


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    #61
    Timberrrrrrrr
    Registered Users Posts: 25,430 ✭✭✭✭Timberrrrrrrr


    RainyDay wrote: »
    How will I know that I've been recorded? How will the Supt know? How long will the Garda retain copies of the videos for dealing with enquires? How will the Garda keep these copies secure?

    Has there been any evidence posted yet of Gardai using personal cameras and recording people while on duty? Because if not then the little rant above seems a little OTT to me.


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