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Does religion have a place in 6th Year Graduations?

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Comments

  • #102
    argonaut
    Registered Users Posts: 133 ✭✭argonaut


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    And the reliable source you have to back this up is...............?

    Probably the peer-reviewed bastion of factual integrity that is a chain e-mail.


  • #103
    Miss Lockhart
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,639 ✭✭✭Miss Lockhart


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Eh?

    Well, like the vast majority of people in Ireland, I went to a secondary school with a Catholic majority. There were several Protestants, of different denominations attending the same school.

    As it happens, one of my close friends happened to belong to one of the minority denominations. I remember asking her if she felt marginalised in any way, (probably not the word I used as a teenager:D),and she seemed genuinely surprised at the idea.

    RC went to their own religious instruction class, other denonimations went to theirs - no big deal, really.

    If there was a mass for a particular event (death of a student, or whatever), Catholics basically attended, or were collected by their parents (unusual, but happened occasionally) Protestants were welcome to attend, or otherwise, entirely as they chose. Alternative activities were arranged by the school for those of the Protestant denominations.
    It seems to me that due respect was shown for all denominations :confused:

    Noreen

    It sounds like your school was reasonably accommodating in its day.

    In my opinion holding a religious ceremony as part of an event which has nothing to do with religion is effectively excluding a lot of people from something they should be involved in. Everybody in a school should be able to take part fully in a school graduation - they should not have to skip parts. That goes for staff and students. I would like to be able to take part fully in everything that is a part of my workplace, but unfortunatley I cannot. I certainly did not appreciate having to stand at the top of my classroom with 28 1st years asking me why I didn't say the Our Father along with the intercom a couple of weeks ago.

    Obviously if you choose to work in or attend (or your parents choose for you) a school with a religious ethos and management structure then you know what you are getting into - and that is fair enough. But surely we should be able to attend/work in an entirely state-run school without religion being a central theme in all events.

    As for separating students by denomination for religious instruction - well, there is currently major concern among parents, politicans and VEC committee members about that very model being used in the new state-run primary schools. Many people feel it is not the way to go.


  • #104
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    Brian Colossal Forehead wrote: »
    More importantly OP, does religion have a place in todays world?

    Yep. Beside palm reading, tarot cards, and that programme on one of the satellites where they walk around in the dark, being filmed in night vision.


  • #105
    red_ice
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,946 ✭✭✭red_ice


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Perhaps you should take your own advice and

    Hardly the same situation you ****ing nonce. Do you see me getting signatures? Dont be such a pratt. Im religious, but im not a push over.
    Einhard wrote: »
    Where's the choice if there are no decent secular schools within your area? Also, seeing as secularists contribute to the running of schools through taxes, why should they even have to make such a choice? I don't want to pay taxes to subsidise anyone's religion, especially if it's to the exclusion of fellow secularist/atheists.

    You dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someone's religion? Well i dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someones drug habbit who cant be arsed get a job because hes got it too good on the dole. Or what about 'asylum seekers'. A little off topic yes, but im sure you see my angle.

    I can only assume as mentioned earlier on that the church founded the schools in your area and the government decided it was a wise investment to help these schools as they are providing a service to the community. They are the 'decent' schools, because the school is run in such a mannor. The other schools which you deem not decent are more than likely that way because they are not run properly. So from your post i get, the church runs good schools, the other non church related schools are crap. Says alot to me..

    The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. My kids will never be denied a chance to learn about anything, even if i dont agree with it, they will always be given an option. Education comes in many forms and to block such a HUGE topic as religion out of their lives is shocking imo.

    You went to a religious school and chose not to have a faith, im sure your kids would have the same option at the end of the day.


  • #106
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    red_ice wrote: »
    denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives.

    Its a rather damning indictment of your parenting skills if the only possible way your kids might have the opportunity to acquire a faith (on the dubious assumption that this would even be a desirable thing*) is to attend a church run school.

    * = Perhaps not given the apparent propensity for personal abuse it seems to give people around these parts


  • #107
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    red_ice wrote: »
    Hardly the same situation you ****ing nonce. Do you see me getting signatures? Dont be such a pratt. Im religious, but im not a push over.

    You dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someone's religion? Well i dont want to pay taxes to subsidise someones drug habbit who cant be arsed get a job because hes got it too good on the dole. Or what about 'asylum seekers'. A little off topic yes, but im sure you see my angle.

    I can only assume as mentioned earlier on that the church founded the schools in your area and the government decided it was a wise investment to help these schools as they are providing a service to the community. They are the 'decent' schools, because the school is run in such a mannor. The other schools which you deem not decent are more than likely that way because they are not run properly. So from your post i get, the church runs good schools, the other non church related schools are crap. Says alot to me..

    The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. (.......).

    Good to see the christian values of not being judgmental and showing compassion, charity and love for ones fellows was well instilled there.


  • #108
    cypharius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭cypharius


    If you got 30 sigs then I wouldn't just let this go. Unless the school is owned/run by the church then a pslam has absaloutly no place in the graduation. Perhaps you could get them to instead have a moments silence to pray to whatever deity/reflect. As I am in a public school with 8 people in my class(Of 30) who I know for a fact are Atheist, and another 3 who are Muslim or something I can only asume that there is a large percentage in your year who are not Christian.


  • #109
    owenc
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,524 ✭✭✭owenc


    Noreen1 wrote: »
    Eh?

    Well, like the vast majority of people in Ireland, I went to a secondary school with a Catholic majority. There were several Protestants, of different denominations attending the same school.

    As it happens, one of my close friends happened to belong to one of the minority denominations. I remember asking her if she felt marginalised in any way, (probably not the word I used as a teenager:D),and she seemed genuinely surprised at the idea.

    RC went to their own religious instruction class, other denonimations went to theirs - no big deal, really.

    If there was a mass for a particular event (death of a student, or whatever), Catholics basically attended, or were collected by their parents (unusual, but happened occasionally) Protestants were welcome to attend, or otherwise, entirely as they chose. Alternative activities were arranged by the school for those of the Protestant denominations.
    It seems to me that due respect was shown for all denominations :confused:

    Noreen

    It may be different here because this is northern ireland and they try to force religion down your throat because of this stupid historic crap. My mother didn't send me to a catholic school because of that, she thought religion wouldn't be mentioned in protestant schools and it wasn't plus it was respectful for the other side of my family. I'm now in a mixed school and its a bit of a disaster because in re, we don't even get to learn because these losers from catholic schools put up their hands and ask stupid pathetic questions like (are the simpsons protestant), they even told us that their priest told them who to vote for, now how is that re!? Its just bigoted crap, everything in our school turns into a protestant-catholic match and i'm sick of it, i feel like giving a few people a slap across the face, its that bad the teachers don't even get involved. The other day i was siting in art and this protestant (actually hes never been to church) said that catholics all support celtic and have large families, i was going to kill him!! Its annoying im stuck between the two sides, so i can be fuming at both sides!!


  • #110
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    Seachmall wrote: »
    It is wrong, children can't get an education nowadays without being indoctrinated to a religion.

    Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.


  • #111
    pickarooney
    Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,496 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    Keogg wrote: »
    I'm not sure about why he got them to stop the petition, probably made him look bad or something:pac: He said they'd discuss it on wednesday when we're back in school, I'd say he'll probably turn it into an opt-in or out thing, more than likely

    What you did was a bit spineless, to be honest. You were told to go ask the principal, but instead you started a petition before he'd even had a chance to discuss it with you. I'm not surprised he asked you to stop the petition in those circumstances.


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  • #112
    cypharius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭cypharius


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.

    Wtf are you talking about? Over 90% of the primary schools are basicly glorified church extensions. As for religion, on the JC exam papers there is not way to answer it without asuming god(In the singular) exists.

    Not to mention that in most public schools, the school will declare a "Catholic ethos".


  • #113
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Oh pull the other one. Indoctrinated, really :pac: In national school we must have done religion once every 3 weeks at most, and even in secondary religion was more abiout social responsibility issues (drugs, drink, teen pregnancy, STIs) than any actual learning prayers etc.

    To be fair It seems from discussions on these issues here and elsewhere That individual schools/teachers seem to vary widely on how seriously they take the religious aspect of their remit.
    owenc wrote: »
    ask stupid pathetic questions like (are the simpsons protestant)!!

    In fairness it is a stupid question alright

    I mean with a name like "Simpson".......... :pac:

    (Sorry)


  • #114
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    cypharius wrote: »
    Wtf are you talking about? Over 90% of the primary schools are basicly glorified church extensions. As for religion, on the JC exam papers there is not way to answer it without asuming god(In the singular) exists.

    Not to mention that in most public schools, the school will declare a "Catholic ethos".


    Who gives a flying fcuk :pac: Really, if you think religion is the biggest load of sh1t kids learn in school you need to grow up.


  • #115
    jumpguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,962 ✭✭✭jumpguy


    TBH, is it really that big of a deal? It all sounds abit petty to me tbh, ye're making mountains out of molehills. If a priest comes around and gives a blessing for your future, does it really matter that much? Is it going to take away from yere graduation ceremony?


  • #116
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    jumpguy wrote: »
    TBH, is it really that big of a deal? It all sounds abit petty to me tbh, ye're making mountains out of molehills. If a priest comes around and gives a blessing for your future, does it really matter that much? Is it going to take away from yere graduation ceremony?

    Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago.

    Course not. Hating on religion is trendy until you have to put your money where your mouth is.


  • #117
    token56
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭token56


    red_ice wrote: »
    The thing i find sad/pathetic about some of the people giving out about the church teaching their kids in their way is that your denying your children the option of having a faith in their lives. My kids will never be denied a chance to learn about anything, even if i dont agree with it, they will always be given an option. Education comes in many forms and to block such a HUGE topic as religion out of their lives is shocking imo.

    You went to a religious school and chose not to have a faith, im sure your kids would have the same option at the end of the day.

    I dont think most people want to block religion completely from schools like you are indicating, rather just not have kids indoctrinated into anyone one particular religion. As you said its a huge topic and I'm sure most reasonable people would be fine with religion being taught from a historical and informative standpoint, for example teaching all the major religions, or however many is practical in time allowed, their history, what the beliefs are, etc. As opposed to teaching that the beliefs of any particular religion are factual. I dont think people want to deny their kids the chance of learning anything and I dont see anyone who has said such here. By all means, teach kids about all religions, and let them choose what they want to believe or not believe after this. In my opinion this would be much better than the current system but I'm sure you probably disagree.


  • #118
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago.
    You mean theres some form of contract involved here ?

    Honestly If thats the best you can come up with then game over !


  • #119
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    A common fallacy people seem to be making in this discussion (very interesting by the way) - is that belief, and faith are going to go away, and there will be at some point in time no Christian left in Ireland.

    We need to start thinking realistically. People of faith are going to be here, likewise atheists are going to be here. Now, given both of these facts, how can we accommodate both in our society rather than engaging in petty selfishness?

    Likewise, the use of the term "indoctrination" when looking to Irish education is absurd, and sensationalist.


  • #120
    Father Damo
    Registered Users Posts: 1,643 ✭✭✭Father Damo


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    You mean theres some form of contract involved here ?

    Honestly If thats the best you can come up with then game over !

    If you havent got enough conviction to completely renounce any religious ceremony you took part in then you really shouldnt be making an arse of yourself moaning about the church (and Im not remotely religious, but damned if Im going to bandwagon)


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  • #121
    cypharius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭cypharius


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Who gives a flying fcuk :pac: Really, if you think religion is the biggest load of sh1t kids learn in school you need to grow up.

    You're completely right, I'm being immature for wanting to live in a secular society, and not have religion rammed down my throat.

    And of course, religion is nowhere near as silly as all those grammmer rules, and as for science... bah! And those languages, those are silly countries, we don't need another language. Not to mention maths!


  • #122
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Father Damo wrote: »
    If you havent got enough conviction to completely renounce any religious ceremony you took part in then you really shouldnt be making an arse of yourself moaning about the church

    So does this extend to regular churchgoers who might have have reservations about some aspect (big or small) of the running of their church ?
    FAIL !


  • #123
    cypharius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭cypharius


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago.

    Course not. Hating on religion is trendy until you have to put your money where your mouth is.

    You're right, I only became an Atheist because all the cool kids were atheists. I got picked on for being a christian, but when I became an Atheist I got into all the right clubs, and now I hang out with the cool kids!

    And of course, bribing kids into making their confo is comepletely in line with christian values!


  • #124
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    cypharius wrote: »
    You're completely right, I'm being immature for wanting to live in a secular society, and not have religion rammed down my throat.

    I'm curious to read how exactly it was "rammed down" your throat, if you have exercised your democratic right to freely reject it since.
    cypharius wrote: »
    And of course, religion is nowhere near as silly as all those grammmer rules, and as for science... bah! And those languages, those are silly countries, we don't need another language. Not to mention maths!

    Indeed it isn't :pac:

    Something as crucial in understanding the way society, and the greater world operates shouldn't ever be neglected from the curriculum.


  • #125
    Seachmall
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,041 ✭✭✭Seachmall


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Something as crucial in understanding the way society, and the greater world operates shouldn't ever be neglected from the curriculum.

    Studying various religions in general isn't a bad idea (given that they're such a big influence in this world) but that's not what is being discussed. We're arguing that being taught about one religion (Catholicism) is wrong, particularly when you're taught that it's the right religion. That's what I and most people here were taught since primary.


  • #126
    cypharius
    Closed Accounts Posts: 504 ✭✭✭cypharius


    Jakkass wrote: »
    I'm curious to read how exactly it was "rammed down" your throat, if you have exercised your democratic right to freely reject it since.

    I was exadurating for the sake of sarcasm.
    But from cradle to secondary school I had no choice, I was dragged to mass by my parents, and as I said, 90% of primary schools. In my secondary school(Which is a community school) the symbol is a styalized cross(I have no problem with this), there is a prayer over the intercom every morning(I would prefere if they just had an inspirational quote and/or instructed teachers to give 5 minutes before the first class for students to pray if they wish).
    There is a "Christian ethos" declared in the school journal, 2 members of the school board are apointed by the parish and we have a franciscan monk for a chaplain(I have no problem with this, many students in the school are religious and he's sound). We also have a small oratory(I have no problem with this, or the religious imagry within). Religion is a manditory class, unless one gets a note from a parent(But we all know that some parents push religion on their children quite agresively).
    There is an angelus every day at 6:00 on the state owned TV station(I don't watch TV, but if I did I would have no problem with this), all of this is alongside other things that don't effect me directly atm but still make me feel like religion is being pushed on me such as prayers before the Dail and swearing on the bible in court.


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Something as crucial in understanding the way society, and the greater world operates shouldn't ever be neglected from the curriculum.

    Yes, but it's taught in such a way that has an obvious pro-religious agenda.


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  • #127
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Seachmall wrote: »
    Studying various religions in general isn't a bad idea (given that they're such a big influence in this world) but that's not what is being discussed. We're arguing that being taught about one religion (Catholicism) is wrong, particularly when you're taught that it's the right religion. That's what I and most people here were taught since primary.

    It depends in what context:

    Kids with atheist or agnostic parents who have expressed a clear wish not to be taught about a certain faith. Yes, it isn't correct in this case. Indeed, if there were more alternatives, this wouldn't have to happen either.

    Kids with parents of faith. It is acceptable for parents of faith to wish to teach their children about their faith and their way of living. Although, I personally think it would be more effective for children to learn about their faith at home if their parents are knowledgeable about it.

    I don't think faith schools are wrong at all. I do think only faith schools creates an unworkable situation in a society where non-believers exist. This is what I was talking about when I said that we needed to get past the petty selfishness that often exists in such discussions, and realise that there are both people of faith in our societies, and there are atheists / agnostics in our society. Neither will be going away, so its time to face up to reality and learn to work together or at the very least co-exist.

    Although, even at my former secondary school which had a CofI ethos, I learned about atheism, agnosticism, reductionism, secular humanism, and so on. In fact, such an understanding helped me to research these viewpoints further to defend my faith.


  • #128
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    Father Damo wrote: »
    Im interested as to whether this 17/18 year old is going to give his uncle back the confirmation money he would have got 6 years ago..

    :rolleyes: A few years ago I bought a wedding president for a mate who was getting married but recently they split up and divorced.

    So today I called around looking for it back and he told me to go and **** myself.

    Should I call my lawyer ?


  • #129
    tfitzgerald
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,285 ✭✭✭tfitzgerald


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    And the reliable source you have to back this up is...............?

    the christian brothers thought me that at school so it has to be true:)


  • #130
    Mike 1972
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,018 ✭✭✭Mike 1972


    The CB's seem to have a bit of a thing for the alleged deathbed ramblings of the insane


  • #131
    Sammy_G
    Registered Users Posts: 4 ✭Sammy_G


    I think religion should be up to the parents of the child not for there school to teach them


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