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Dutch to abandon Multiculturalism.

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    #32
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.


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    #33
    inforfun
    Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 20,862 Mod ✭✭✭✭inforfun


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    This (like most stories about "multiculturalism") is bollix ! The Dutch government cannot force a migrant from an EU member state to learn any language. Besides what if the migrants in question can speak Frisian or Limburgish ?

    I live here in Ireland for years now.
    Do you really think it would be great if i didnt speak a word of English?

    In Holland you are talking about a couple of 100.000 non-western immigrants who live there for 20+ years and dont speak a word of Dutch.
    And Fries and Limburgs?? Those are not languages, those are speaking disorders :D


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    #34
    Spread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    Long overdue. Multiculturism is a failed concept. France tried to tell everyone that they had it right! Ghettos more like. Look at some of London's satelite towns. Or Bradford, Leicester, Moss Side, Toxteth. The Labour Party went out on a limb to collect votes and pander to the rabble rousers in the various communities. They got the votes and left mayhem. In parts, the lunatics in local government have got the national government by the short and curlies. So political expediency is not of long term benefit. Hopefully Ireland has learned from the failure of others. The fact that we didn't have overseas adventures has helped ......... so the intake of migrants is steady and not overwhelming. What we don't want is English becoming a second language in the migrant homes like in parts of the UK. Having said that, I feel optimistic about Ireland's chances of a gradual and successful integration.


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    #35
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Solnskaya wrote: »
    Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.

    i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

    not the case ?? :confused:


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    #36
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    on the no english/integration thing, have to agree, multiculturalism tends to just dilute national characteristics to the point where everywhere becomes everywhere, and thats just dull. I want my dutchies in clogs, with black jeans, slicked back hair, making a big lump of holey cheese. With a stunning blonde daughter with big jugs of milk headed for the dairy. Oh and Marc, the Dutch are nuts, think world K1 champs and football hooligans, more so than cheese and weed.


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    #37
    Mary28
    Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭Mary28


    They are laid back and friendly. They might be super direct and lack our humour but they do have a very open outlook. Light years away from the average Irish person.


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    #38
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Spread wrote: »
    Long overdue. Multiculturism is a failed concept. France tried to tell everyone that they had it right!

    With the Germans, French, British, and now the Dutch coming out and saying this, I cant help getting the feeling the EU want to roll this out, but want member states to drip feed it individually, rather than making it look like EU 'policy' in the eyes of the rest of the world.


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    #39
    Solnskaya
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,463 ✭✭✭Solnskaya


    Mary28 wrote: »
    They are laid back and friendly. They might be super direct and lack our humour but they do have a very open outlook. Light years away from the average Irish person.
    Indeed. Must have slipped a bit when they colonised Africa and dreamt up apartheid. Was probably just a mood swing:rolleyes:


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    #40
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Solnskaya wrote: »
    Indeed. Must have slipped a bit when they colonised Africa and dreamt up apartheid. Was probably just a mood swing:rolleyes:

    Just out of curiosity is there any other European holder, or former holder of colonies you'd consider more laid back than the dutch, in that, or any respect?

    genuine question


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    #41
    CoalBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    For example, immigrants will be required to learn the Dutch language, and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

    I have no problem with the dutch policy but what is ignoring dutch values ?


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    #42
    EGAR
    Registered Users Posts: 2,874 ✭✭✭EGAR


    Perhaps they all have to learn how to make cheese, plant tulip bulbs and handcraft clogs..?


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    #43
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    EGAR wrote: »
    Perhaps they all have to learn how to make cheese, plant tulip bulbs and handcraft clogs..?

    ...and partake in group sex on drugs :D


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    #44
    n900guy
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭n900guy


    Spread wrote: »
    Having said that, I feel optimistic about Ireland's chances of a gradual and successful integration.


    With what? A country with it's own culture, or one that has spawned an unlikely bastard son of the US, UK and Australia while turning it's back almost entirely on the non-Anglophone cultural traditions of the country?


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    #45
    CoalBucket
    Closed Accounts Posts: 971 ✭✭✭CoalBucket


    Solnskaya wrote: »
    Was thinking the same thing. "laid back Dutch"????? Any Dutchers I've ever met were tightly wound nutters, Boers anybody? I've never met a less laid back bunch of people, unless you include Cork.

    I've spent a lot of time in Holland over the years. Sometimes on business, sometimes on pleasure. In my experience the dutch are a laid back and liberal people when it comes to tolerance of other people and their beliefs and practises. I'm not talking about the coffeeshop owners !!!.

    In business they are pretty much like the germans, efficient and professional. Again I'm not talking about the coffee shop owners. :)

    They seem to have the best of both worlds from my point of view and us Irish could learn a lot from them. Maybe I'm wrong but thats my perception.

    Edit: BTW I'm from Cork too, were the best people in the world, and I'm being modest


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    #46
    n900guy
    Registered Users Posts: 288 ✭✭n900guy


    marcsignal wrote: »
    i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

    not the case ?? :confused:

    Liberal is a misinterpretation. IMHO, Dutch culture is more about fair trade, and working together for the common good. Drugs, prostution being open in the eyes of the law and on the street allows it to be included in the funcitoning of society - for good or bad, and not dragged down a backstreet causing more problems.

    But liberal, laid back - no. The opposite IMO. More like agreeable, direct and focussed from a group consensus, with less individualism.


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    #47
    Einhard
    Registered Users Posts: 6,920 ✭✭✭Einhard


    I find it very strange that Europeans have to have so many models, and concepts, and projects surrounding immigrants and their integration. It's really quite simple. The Americans have been doing it for centuries- we'll respect your culture, as long as it doesn't clash with our laws. Isn't that pretty simple?


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    #48
    stevenmu
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 9,689 Mod ✭✭✭✭stevenmu


    marcsignal wrote: »
    i've only ever met a half dozen Dutch if i'm honest, and all of them in Ireland. I was always under the impression they (the dutch) were all generally faily liberal/laid back.

    not the case ?? :confused:

    It's a little more complex than that. In general, Dutch people are actually pretty conservative and traditionalist, and in some ways what we would often think of as right-wing. But they're very tolerant and generally respectful of other peoples ways and ideas. They're pretty libertarian and don't try to ban or criminalise things just because they don't like it themselves, as long as it doesn't hurt them directly they're pretty ok with it.

    This is unusual to Irish people. We're used to rigidly classifying ideas and ideals as right or left, and we make the assumption that if someone likes one right wing thing they like all things we have determined as right wing, and vice versa. And we expect people of different ideologies to be completely opposed to each other, and to fight against each others ideas, and even try to ban or criminalise them.

    So when someone is tolerant of something, we assume they're generally agreeable and laid back, which would be true in an Irish context, but in a Dutch context it's just that they don't see it as any of their business to stand in your way.


    And that's where the problem with Islam and multiculturalism is coming in. Being tolerant and letting others live their own way is a very highly held principle, but they perceive Islam as something which imposes a lifestyle and rules on others. In general the Dutch are quite happy with people being a different religion and saying different prayers in a different language. They're ok with people wearing different clothes and eating different foods and so on. But they now perceive Islam as being something which dictates to other people how to live, and that's something which goes against possibly their highest values, and that's something they're not willing to tolerate.


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    #49
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    and the government will take a tougher approach to immigrants to ignore Dutch values or disobey Dutch law.

    Hmm, so either they've been going easy on immigrants who broke the law until now or else they're going to treat immigrants more harshly than natural-born citizens from now on.

    I suppose there's always the third possibility that they're just being full of Scheisse.


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    #50
    Sid Sarcastic
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭Sid Sarcastic


    Has anyone informed these Muslim chappies that there is no god? I think it high time don't you?


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    #51
    sollar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭sollar


    stevenmu wrote: »
    but they perceive Islam as something which imposes a lifestyle and rules on others. They now perceive Islam as being something which dictates to other people how to live, and that's something which goes against possibly their highest values, and that's something they're not willing to tolerate.

    Nor should any western country. If people want to live in the west they should have to fit into our society not the other way round.


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    #52
    Badgermonkey
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,019 ✭✭✭Badgermonkey


    Mike 1972 wrote: »
    Anyway any talk of abandoning "Multiculturalism" in the Netherlands is nonsense. Theyvve been multicultural for hundreds of years

    They're abandoning the policy, which was a relatively recent construct.

    Multiculturalism
    'In a political context the term has come to mean the advocacy of extending equitable status to distinct ethnic and religious groups without promoting any specific ethnic, religious, and/or cultural community values as central.'


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    #53
    Spread
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Spread


    n900guy wrote: »
    With what? A country with it's own culture, or one that has spawned an unlikely bastard son of the US, UK and Australia while turning it's back almost entirely on the non-Anglophone cultural traditions of the country?

    Care to ask that question in plain English?


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    #54
    mr_happy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 149 ✭✭mr_happy


    Muslims have lots of kids and are far from passive, they want to dominate.

    Its a matter of time beofre they run the world with an iron fist, the Dutch want to delay it happening but its inevitable.

    22% of the worlds population are Muslims.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Muslim_population


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    #55
    Greentopia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    n900guy wrote: »
    Liberal is a misinterpretation. IMHO, Dutch culture is more about fair trade, and working together for the common good. Drugs, prostution being open in the eyes of the law and on the street allows it to be included in the funcitoning of society - for good or bad, and not dragged down a backstreet causing more problems.

    But liberal, laid back - no. The opposite IMO. More like agreeable, direct and focussed from a group consensus, with less individualism.

    I always thought the way the Dutch deal with those issues is smart and pragmatic. No point in banning those things, that's never worked in human history so why not regularise them and integrate them into the economic and social life of the country so junkies at least get clean needles and don't have to share needles and contract diseases like HIV; and prostitutes are likewise protected from STD's/HIV and pay taxes. Win-win it seems to me.
    Don't know why other countries don't follow suit.

    I would describe them as more socially progressive in many areas but they are what I would call liberal on their criminal justice policies-drugs, prostitution, euthanasia etc..
    The emphasis on group consensus I like too, reminds me of Scandinavia.


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    #56
    Greentopia
    Registered Users Posts: 3,221 ✭✭✭Greentopia


    Sid Sarcastic wrote: »
    Has anyone informed these Muslim chappies that there is no god? I think it high time don't you?

    By all means.
    After you :pac:


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    #57
    ascanbe
    Registered Users Posts: 3,089 ✭✭✭ascanbe


    Is complying with the law, as it extends to all citizens, not enough? What, exactly, is Dutch 'culture'?


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    #58
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    Latchy wrote: »
    Overall I dont think Muslim parallel societys in western countrys are a great idea , especially when they are spewing out so much anti - western bile while living in them .

    Those are Islamofascists not Muslims. You'll find much the same views in far right Christians.
    doctor evil wrote: »
    The Americans had it right with allegiance to their flag.

    Yeah sure. That's the excuse they used to get those young men to go to Iraq to get revenge for 9/11. Wrap you lies in a flag which represents a concept that only exists in your mind and people will actually die for it.

    Btw folks, in this world, it's much more dangerous to be a Muslim than it is to be a Westerner.


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    #59
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    ascanbe wrote: »
    Is complying with the law, as it extends to all citizens, not enough? What, exactly, is Dutch 'culture'?

    What exactly is any 'culture' when you put scare quotes around it. .

    Nothing more ridiculous than the defenders of multi-culturalism denying the existence of culture. It seems that many cultures can exist, but no one culture can exist.

    ( All that can exist is a 'culture' - with it's obligatory scare quotes )


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    #60
    Yahew
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,491 ✭✭✭Yahew


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    Those are Islamofascists not Muslims. You'll find much the same views in far right Christians.

    Would you now. I doubt it, but the argument here is about Islam. If there is a mass movement of American fundamentalists to Europe you can sign me up to the petition to stop it.

    Also - inconsistancies of multi-culturalism pt 245.

    ....

    245) All cultures are the same and equally moral especially Islam which only an evil Islamophobe would dare criticise. This is universally true except for Right Wing Americans.
    245.1) In fact Americans suck, not just right wingers.
    245.2) Actually Western culture sucks but Islam is brilliant. What were we thinking with this equal stuff in 245) ?
    245.3) Pass the weed.

    ....


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    #61
    marcsignal
    Registered Users Posts: 4,072 ✭✭✭marcsignal


    Einhard wrote: »
    I find it very strange that Europeans have to have so many models, and concepts, and projects surrounding immigrants and their integration. It's really quite simple. The Americans have been doing it for centuries- we'll respect your culture, as long as it doesn't clash with our laws. Isn't that pretty simple?

    I agree.

    if you're renting a room in my house, and I don't want you to smoke in my home, then for the purposes of good relations, you can smoke whatever you want, just dont do it in my house.

    many people can create cosmic reasons why this is wrong/intolerant/unreasonable on my part, but hey, when it comes down to the wire, it's my gaf, if you don't like the rules, then fuck off.


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