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The perfect PLCE setup? (Irish DF)

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  • 27-07-2012 3:13am
    #1
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭


    I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this, given the season that's in it.

    As for myself, it's 2 x ammo pouch, 2 x water bottle, 3 x utility pouch (the proper ones, not the renamed CBRN pouch that the DF issue). Food; spare clothing items such as socks; "condiments" and sachets of chocolate drink, coffee etc. in a mess tin; rifle cleaning kit and a couple of items like a Crusader cooking system. What do other people have?


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    #2
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    Maoltuile wrote: »
    I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this, given the season that's in it.

    As for myself, it's 2 x ammo pouch, 2 x water bottle, 3 x utility pouch (the proper ones, not the renamed CBRN pouch that the DF issue). Food; spare clothing items such as socks; "condiments" and sachets of chocolate drink, coffee etc. in a mess tin; rifle cleaning kit and a couple of items like a Crusader cooking system. What do other people have?

    You wear what you have been trained to wear. That isn't it. Have a look for an Cosantoir Pullouts from past assessments for a packing list. That is gospel.
    Don't go modifying it based on your own preference.
    If I were an NCO in your unit, I would take great pleasure in looking at your modified kit, handing you your issue of 6 magazines, a 7.62 belt and 4 smoke grenades and saying "find room for them." What would you do with your coffee then? You are carrying too much water on your belt order, unless you are based in the desert. One bottle max on your belt. If you want to carry more, use a camelback. it won't slosh when its half full.

    Simple rule.
    1. CEMO: You live out of this
    2. CEFO: You fight from this
    3. Smock: You survive with this.


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    #3
    BigDuffman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭BigDuffman


    goldie fish wrote: »
    You wear what you have been trained to wear. That isn't it. Have a look for an Cosantoir Pullouts from past assessments for a packing list. That is gospel.
    Don't go modifying it based on your own preference.
    .

    That is not so, show me a man who has not modified his webbing with extra pouches or gotten rid of the respirator pouch???

    If you wore your webbing as per manual you'd be awfully uncomfortable...

    Most do go for the extra utility pouches instead of the respirator haversack.

    What you carry in it after water, slaughter and unit SOP is up to the individual soldier. I'm not going to beast a man for having a couple of sachets of coffee in his CEFO.
    goldie fish wrote: »
    1. CEMO: You live out of this
    2. CEFO: You fight from this
    3. Smock: You survive with this.


    The best rule to consider when considering the layout / packing of anything.


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    #4
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    goldie fish wrote: »
    You wear what you have been trained to wear. That isn't it. Have a look for an Cosantoir Pullouts from past assessments for a packing list. That is gospel.
    Don't go modifying it based on your own preference.

    As BigDuffman says, this isn't necessarily the case (it may have been in the units you served, admittedly). I can count at least two different pullouts/posters and the manual on PLCE, none of which agree.
    If I were an NCO in your unit, I would take great pleasure in looking at your modified kit, handing you your issue of 6 magazines, a 7.62 belt and 4 smoke grenades and saying "find room for them."

    Which would be short-lived, let me tell you.

    No-one (officer or NCO, PDF or RDF) where I am has ever had a problem with how I pack my PLCE, not least because it's close to how several of us have been shown in the recent past by a certain DF training establishment (you are out of date). I have worn this arrangement about the place for a while now, without issue.

    It's just an adjustment to CEFO to get rid of the mistake that is the former respirator pouch with something better. It's not something mad like a chest rig. If I ever need the 'proper' order as laid down in the manual for a competition or whatever, I'll just draw one for the day.
    What would you do with your coffee then? You are carrying too much water on your belt order, unless you are based in the desert. One bottle max on your belt.

    The couple of little sachets of coffee (and whatever) are my little home comforts to start the day. Otherwise, I'm very, *very* grumpy.

    I keep one or two waterbottles in those pouches depending on the situation. We find ourselves doing a lot of hard physical labour (guess which Corps), so two bottles is a godsend, and I'm a big fit guy so I easily carry the extra.
    If you want to carry more, use a camelback. it won't slosh when its half full.

    I was going to snark about Camelbaks not being anywhere in the manual, but I'll let that pass. They don't fit well with the bergen in my experience, but I do have one in the day bag.
    Simple rule.
    1. CEMO: You live out of this
    2. CEFO: You fight from this
    3. Smock: You survive with this.

    Thank you for mentioning it, but I was already aware.


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    #5
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Frontline ammo involves carrying more than 6 mags and nobody in a Section carries 4 smoke grenades. Just saying.

    Packing lists should only ever be followed while on a Cse whcih demands kit packed a certain way, eg. Standards Cse or Selection. While in your Unit, certain things should be packed in a certain place as SOP ie. your First Aid Kit. Everything after that is user preference.


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    #6
    Poccington
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,497 ✭✭✭Poccington


    Maoltuile wrote: »
    I'm wondering what people's thoughts are on this, given the season that's in it.

    As for myself, it's 2 x ammo pouch, 2 x water bottle, 3 x utility pouch (the proper ones, not the renamed CBRN pouch that the DF issue). Food; spare clothing items such as socks; "condiments" and sachets of chocolate drink, coffee etc. in a mess tin; rifle cleaning kit and a couple of items like a Crusader cooking system. What do other people have?

    Mess tins are gay.

    No need to carry socks in your PLCE, throw waterproofs in your daysack.


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    #7
    BigDuffman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭BigDuffman


    Poccington wrote: »
    Mess tins are gay.

    No need to carry socks in your PLCE, throw waterproofs in your daysack.

    +1

    Never understood people carrying mess tins in PLCE. If your going to be in a position to eat you will also be able to access your day sack / bergen.


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    #8
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    BigDuffman wrote: »
    +1

    Never understood people carrying mess tins in PLCE. If your going to be in a position to eat you will also be able to access your day sack / bergen.

    i) it's a leftover from '58 pattern CEFO, and still just 'done'.

    ii) personally, I find it reassuring. Too often day sacks or bergens go walkies in a transit or FFR. Although I've been thinking about just replacing it with the Crusader mug.


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    #9
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Maoltuile wrote: »
    BigDuffman wrote: »
    +1

    Never understood people carrying mess tins in PLCE. If your going to be in a position to eat you will also be able to access your day sack / bergen.

    i) it's a leftover from '58 pattern CEFO, and still just 'done'.

    ii) personally, I find it reassuring. Too often day sacks or bergens go walkies in a transit or FFR. Although I've been thinking about just replacing it with the Crusader mug.

    My mess tin doubles as a solid cargo carrier for things that I want on my person but also want to be sure won't get crushed when I hit the ground. More often than not, the night vision, but other stuff as well, to include munchables.

    Drop the rifle cleaning kit, for the love of God. If it doesn't help you kill the enemy or keep you alive, why is it on your kit? If you need it in combat, you have likely screwed up somewhere.

    Drop cargo carriers. Bring more ammo. (Be it grenades or bullets). Cooking system?!

    I second the comment on individual preference. The only things which had a mandated position for us were the First Aid kits, tourniquets, and casualty feeder cards. Whatever works, we prefer "performance" over "looks" if there must be a choice.

    I'm trying to remember what's on my kit.

    Ten rifle magazine pouches.
    Canteen cup (which I presume is the mess tin in Irish)
    Canteen (on opposite side)
    Two pistol magazine pouches
    Seat belt cutter
    Utility knife
    Target designator
    IR strobe
    GPS
    Radio
    Grenade pouch.
    Earplug case
    Night Vision
    First aid kit. (The single largest thing on the web gear)

    Think that's it.

    Rules:
    Nothing projects to the rear of my back. Have to be able to be strapped into the seat of any transport. I also don't have anything attached to the sides, for the same reason. Transport seats (esp in helicopters) tend to be narrow, you can't take up more horizontal width than the seat. Side armour plates only exacerbate the problem.
    Nothing to my direct front. When I go prone, it's because I want to be as low and close to the ground as possible! Also doesn't drag or otherwise impede during low crawls.
    Nothing on the left upper chest. That's where the pistol holster goes when on missions involving a lot of riding in vehicles. Otherwise the pistol is on a separate hip belt, with a spare magazine.

    I have not modified my layout since my last deployment.

    I still have a tiny LED torch attached, but is no longer used: Helmet mounted lights perform that role better.


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    #10
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    My mess tin doubles as a solid cargo carrier for things that I want on my person but also want to be sure won't get crushed when I hit the ground. More often than not, the night vision, but other stuff as well, to include munchables.

    Drop the rifle cleaning kit, for the love of God. If it doesn't help you kill the enemy or keep you alive, why is it on your kit? If you need it in combat, you have likely screwed up somewhere.

    Drop cargo carriers. Bring more ammo. (Be it grenades or bullets). Cooking system?!

    I second the comment on individual preference. The only things which had a mandated position for us were the First Aid kits, tourniquets, and casualty feeder cards. Whatever works, we prefer "performance" over "looks" if there must be a choice.

    I'm trying to remember what's on my kit.

    Ten rifle magazine pouches.
    Canteen cup (which I presume is the mess tin in Irish)
    Canteen (on opposite side)
    Two pistol magazine pouches
    Seat belt cutter
    Utility knife
    Target designator
    IR strobe
    GPS
    Radio
    Grenade pouch.
    Earplug case
    Night Vision
    First aid kit. (The single largest thing on the web gear)

    Think that's it.

    Rules:
    Nothing projects to the rear of my back. Have to be able to be strapped into the seat of any transport. I also don't have anything attached to the sides, for the same reason. Transport seats (esp in helicopters) tend to be narrow, you can't take up more horizontal width than the seat. Side armour plates only exacerbate the problem.
    Nothing to my direct front. When I go prone, it's because I want to be as low and close to the ground as possible! Also doesn't drag or otherwise impede during low crawls.
    Nothing on the left upper chest. That's where the pistol holster goes when on missions involving a lot of riding in vehicles. Otherwise the pistol is on a separate hip belt, with a spare magazine.

    I have not modified my layout since my last deployment.

    I still have a tiny LED torch attached, but is no longer used: Helmet mounted lights perform that role better.

    Thanks for that Manic, very interesting. Just to comment:

    i) the 'cooking system' is this http://quixotic.org.uk/Backpacking/Crusader.shtml It fits perfectly around the '58 water bottle in PLCE, and it's miles better than the hexi stoves.
    ii) 'Cleaning' kit in the RDF is usually an ammo box with a roll of cotton strips, a couple of pull-throughs and a can of oil (and day sacks/bergens typically somewhere else). Having some proper kit in a little waterproof container makes all the difference in getting them properly cleaned and getting out of there.
    iii) I don't see us getting battle vests any time soon, unfortunately.

    What's in the first aid kit? What make's the utility knife?


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    #11
    goldie fish
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,195 ✭✭✭goldie fish


    The rifle cleaning kit should fit in the Butt recess. Unfortunately most of the covers are lost. The pull thru and oil bottle will still fit safely tho.


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    #12
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran



    i) the 'cooking system' is this http://quixotic.org.uk/Backpacking/Crusader.shtml It fits perfectly around the '58 water bottle in PLCE, and it's miles better than the hexi stoves.

    Perhaps, but every ounce adds up, alarmingly so, in my experience. So much so that I don't even carry spare batteries for my optics, GPS or designator on my webbing. They are luxuries which I can retrieve from my "assault pack" (Small backpack) when I have the chance.
    ii) 'Cleaning' kit in the RDF is usually an ammo box with a roll of cotton strips, a couple of pull-throughs and a can of oil (and day sacks/bergens typically somewhere else). Having some proper kit in a little waterproof container makes all the difference in getting them properly cleaned and getting out of there.

    Comment about ounces (and cubic centimetres) applies. I have a tupperware container in my pack which contains my home-designed cleaning kit. Still don't see the use for it on webbing.

    iii) I don't see us getting battle vests any time soon

    I do not modify my webbing for exercises where we are not issued with armour.
    What's in the first aid kit? What make's the utility knife?

    http://www.usamma.army.mil/assets/docs/IFAK.pdf

    If I recall, the knife is a Gerber. Army issue.


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    #13
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    goldie fish wrote: »
    The rifle cleaning kit should fit in the Butt recess. Unfortunately most of the covers are lost. The pull thru and oil bottle will still fit safely tho.

    Agreed. But as most RDFers do not have personal issue kit, nor would they necessarily have a personal issue weapon, something small an light like a vitamin bottle holds more than you would need for a 6 month tour overseas, let alone a weekend in The Glen.

    There is no excuse for not having some semblance of a rifle cleaning kit on you at all times. Rifle barrels get blocked FULL STOP not being able to clean it ASAP is careless and unprofessional


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    #14
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Midnight Oil wrote: »
    Rifle barrels get blocked FULL STOP not being able to clean it ASAP is careless and unprofessional

    There's nothing you can clear with a pull-through that will stop a round, so that's a nice-to-have, not need-to-have. The only part of an AUG I ever had to clean to prevent a stoppage was the gas piston.


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    #15
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Donny5 wrote: »
    There's nothing you can clear with a pull-through that will stop a round, so that's a nice-to-have, not need-to-have. The only part of an AUG I ever had to clean to prevent a stoppage was the gas piston.

    Sincerest apologies. Did not realise you were an odnance officer.


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    #16
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Rifle barrels get blocked FULL STOP

    Two wars later, it hasn't been an issue for me or anyone I know. What, exactly, are you doing to your rifle which results in it getting blocked?


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    #17
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    Two wars later

    Not being argumentative as you are the MOD on here but can you explain to me which wars you have been involved in so that I do not waste your time explaining my experiences from over 12 years PDF, 3 years RDF and a few trips overseas in that timeframe?


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    #18
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    Manic has been to Afghanistan and Iraq if I recall. He had great updates from A'stan last time he was there, some cool photos to go along with it.


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    #19
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Local-womanizer wrote: »
    Manic has been to Afghanistan and Iraq if I recall. He had great updates from A'stan last time he was there, some cool photos to go along with it.

    Ok so considerable experience with soldiering. But these missions were not with a Steyr were they? Would assume they were with a variety of SA80?

    As a newb on here I would not dare acost a MOD but there are differences between an SA80 and a Steyr. We have to adhere to DF doctrine I am afraid and there are experts with more knowledge than you, me or Manic that have decided that the Steyr should not be fired with a blocked barrel


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    #20
    Local-womanizer
    Registered Users Posts: 3,798 ✭✭✭Local-womanizer


    Midnight Oil wrote: »
    Ok so considerable experience with soldiering. But these missions were not with a Steyr were they? Would assume they were with a variety of SA80?

    As a newb on here I would not dare acost a MOD but there are differences between an SA80 and a Steyr. We have to adhere to DF doctrine I am afraid and there are experts with more knowledge than you, me or Manic that have decided that the Steyr should not be fired with a blocked barrel

    M4s and tanks for Manic, Cav officer in the states.

    Nothing wrong with challenging a mod, a debate is a debate and a mod is just a poster here like anyone else, until they need to step in.


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    #21
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Midnight Oil wrote: »
    Sincerest apologies. Did not realise you were an odnance officer.

    Ordnance officers aren't the be-all and end-all, and if one told you that a pull-through could remove anything causing a stoppage, then he or she was an idiot, as are you for believing it. Cleaning the bore is for accuracy. The only thing in the barrel that could cause a stoppage (and likely catastrophic failure) is either a squib (which I've never seen in an AUG, but I imagine would require a freezer or trip to the armourer to get out) or foreign matter pushed down the bore from digging the barrel into ground. Neither of these can be rectified with a pull-through, although you can push dirt out with a bore brush.


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    #22
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Donny5 wrote: »
    Ordnance officers aren't the be-all and end-all, and if one told you that a pull-through could remove anything causing a stoppage, then he or she was an idiot, as are you for believing it. Cleaning the bore is for accuracy. The only thing in the barrel that could cause a stoppage (and likely catastrophic failure) is either a squib (which I've never seen in an AUG, but I imagine would require a freezer or trip to the armourer to get out) or foreign matter pushed down the bore from digging the barrel into ground. Neither of these can be rectified with a pull-through, although you can push dirt out with a bore brush.

    OK. Clearly you have read a document somewhere that qualifies you more than a man that is qualified and identified in court as an expert on the weapon system. I mean for goodness sake you were able to learn more in 15 minutes reading online than he learned on his 15 month YO course. If you factor in his time in College he obviously wasted 5 1/2 years of his life when he should have read the same document as you.


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    #23
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Midnight Oil wrote: »
    OK. Clearly you have read a document somewhere that qualifies you more than a man that is qualified and identified in court as an expert on the weapon system. I mean for goodness sake you were able to learn more in 15 minutes reading online than he learned on his 15 month YO course. If you factor in his time in College he obviously wasted 5 1/2 years of his life when he should have read the same document as you.

    Your whole point is that I should accept your argument to authority, which is farcical. If the man who designed the Steyr came to me and told me what you're telling me, I would laugh in his face. I could also point out how I know this, and why I'm more qualified than an Ordnance officer to say it, but it doesn't matter, because neither of our qualifications affects the truth.


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    #24
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Donny5 wrote: »
    Your whole point is that I should accept your argument to authority, which is farcical.

    The pride of the Defence Forces of Ireland. To think I wasted the last week and a bit interviewing people for jobs in this organisation and assessing how they would respond to military life and discipline .... what a waste of 116 interviews!


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    #25
    Donny5
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,827 ✭✭✭Donny5


    Midnight Oil wrote: »
    The pride of the Defence Forces of Ireland. To think I wasted the last week and a bit interviewing people for jobs in this organisation and assessing how they would respond to military life and discipline .... what a waste of 116 interviews!

    With the attitude that rank makes you right and that response to criticism, you are the one of the major problems in the DF, and a disgrace to the uniform.


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    #26
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    well its simple science really.

    A pullthrough, by its very nature, must be fed completely through a barrel in order to be "pulled".

    impossible really, if one end is blocked!

    A pushrod however only has to go in one end and can force a foreign body back out of the bore.

    but im just an infantry NCO, what would I know.


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    #27
    BigDuffman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,512 ✭✭✭BigDuffman


    Manic Moran wrote: »
    My mess tin doubles as a solid cargo carrier for things that I want on my person but also want to be sure won't get crushed when I hit the ground. More often than not, the night vision, but other stuff as well, to include munchables.
    .

    I suppose thats fair enough considering your role, but the only thing I have thats crushable in my webbing used to be a mars bar (now its an energy gel which is fun trying to prevent it getting crushed)! So I've never seen the need for them, as they are an unecessary weight IMO if someone REALY wanted to carry something to eat out of I have always suggested acquiring a curry tray! Ligther and can fold up into a smaller space than a tin.

    I don't see the issue with carrying a small Cleaning kit. I have a boresnake, with a bit of scrub and flannelette in an old camera film tube my webbing. The reason being that the practice of having a day sack is brand new as RDF SOPs. and more often than not whilst sitting round on the range or back of a truck it was always good to get a jump start on cleaning your riddler.

    Either way if I'm in a position to clean my rifle, I'm not going to be actively engaging or being engaged by the en. which is the primary consideration towards what goes on your webbing / day sack / bergen.

    Midnight this is an "anonymous" forum, so the mods are only here to make sure no-one is being a dick. Everyone can voice an opinion and there is no rank! So let the opinions fly mate.

    Personally I've no huge issue with a small cleaning kit being carried. But I'd echo other posters in saying that anything that causes a barrel to clog to such a point where it wont come loose of its own accord would require rods as opposed to a pull through. Hard to carry rods in a personal cleaning kit.


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    #28
    Midnight Oil
    Closed Accounts Posts: 114 ✭✭Midnight Oil


    Donny5 wrote: »
    With the attitude that rank makes you right and that response to criticism, you are the one of the major problems in the DF, and a disgrace to the uniform.

    Thank you.


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    #29
    Morpheus
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 2,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Morpheus


    Also... id just like to point out ---- welcome aboard the forums Midnight!!


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    #30
    neilled
    Registered Users Posts: 1,232 ✭✭✭neilled


    BigDuffman wrote: »
    I suppose thats fair enough considering your role, but the only thing I have thats crushable in my webbing used to be a mars bar (now its an energy gel which is fun trying to prevent it getting crushed)! So I've never seen the need for them, as they are an unecessary weight IMO if someone REALY wanted to carry something to eat out of I have always suggested acquiring a curry tray! Ligther and can fold up into a smaller space than a tin.

    I don't see the issue with carrying a small Cleaning kit. I have a boresnake, with a bit of scrub and flannelette in an old camera film tube my webbing. The reason being that the practice of having a day sack is brand new as RDF SOPs. and more often than not whilst sitting round on the range or back of a truck it was always good to get a jump start on cleaning your riddler.

    Either way if I'm in a position to clean my rifle, I'm not going to be actively engaging or being engaged by the en. which is the primary consideration towards what goes on your webbing / day sack / bergen.

    Midnight this is an "anonymous" forum, so the mods are only here to make sure no-one is being a dick. Everyone can voice an opinion and there is no rank! So let the opinions fly mate.

    Personally I've no huge issue with a small cleaning kit being carried. But I'd echo other posters in saying that anything that causes a barrel to clog to such a point where it wont come loose of its own accord would require rods as opposed to a pull through. Hard to carry rods in a personal cleaning kit.

    Repeatedly firing blanks will build up enough carbon to prevent an armourers push through from fitting down the barrel of a weapon - so if you go from a blank - full stripdown then onwards to live fire scenario you have a major problem, weapons may not be fit to fire. This of course can be solved by adequate cleaning, meaning that everyone needs to have a cleaning kit and carry out routine cleaning of their weapon.

    Certain training units of the DF like having things cleaner than clean for the sake of it, its not unusual to see a few push throughs scattered amongst the troops or squeezed into the gpmg kit. On the flipside, I've seen a number of things lodged in barrells from flanellette wrapped around the metal brush in an effort to get things clean quickly - push through to the rescue, a handy yoke to have!!!! And a boresnake as another poster says, is the job!


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    #31
    Maoltuile
    Registered Users Posts: 634 ✭✭✭Maoltuile


    BigDuffman wrote: »
    I don't see the issue with carrying a small Cleaning kit. I have a boresnake, with a bit of scrub and flannelette in an old camera film tube my webbing. The reason being that the practice of having a day sack is brand new as RDF SOPs.

    Only the genuinely committed buy/obtain their own (the rest are happy to sponge off their buddies in my experience). And most senior ranks don't get the idea at all, hence the diligent few being told to leave them on the transport so that everyone looks uniform.
    and more often than not whilst sitting round on the range or back of a truck it was always good to get a jump start on cleaning your riddler.

    And before then as well. I've been handed a Steyr with a reddish muzzle (rust!) straight out of stores in the recent past.
    Hard to carry rods in a personal cleaning kit.

    It can be done (the folding-up versions).


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