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Bus Strike (read warning in post #1)

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Comments

  • #1452
    Peppa Pig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Peppa Pig


    KomradeBishop wrote: »
    You do realise there are several links off that article. You know, the ones he says were ignored in the E&Y study.

    I had so many links open that I used a quote from an article not linked - not deliberately.
    Here is the link showing the 50% figure.
    Link

    If you want to call me a liar then fire ahead. Doesn't bother me.
    Your evidence that privatisation is bad disputed that.


  • #1453
    cloud493
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    Was there not a strike in 2014? Or was that for the trains.?


  • #1454
    branie2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,305 ✭✭✭✭branie2


    cloud493 wrote: »
    Was there not a strike in 2014? Or was that for the trains.?

    I think there was


  • #1455
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,935 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    cloud493 wrote: »
    Was there not a strike in 2014? Or was that for the trains.?

    There were separate strikes in Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus in 2013 relating to pay cuts.

    There was a strike in Irish Rail in 2014 relating to pay cuts.


  • #1456
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    cloud493 wrote: »
    Was there not a strike in 2014? Or was that for the trains.?

    18 months back
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #1457
    cloud493
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11,835 ✭✭✭✭cloud493


    lxflyer wrote: »
    There were separate strikes in Bus Eireann and Dublin Bus in 2013 relating to pay cuts.

    There was a strike in Irish Rail in 2014 relating to pay cuts.

    Ah thats the one. Anyway, its a massive pain in the arse.


  • #1458
    pmasterson95
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,074 ✭✭✭pmasterson95


    Was few statements claiming public support the strikes and that boards isn't an accurate reflection.

    According to poll here
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/bus-strike-causing-major-drop-in-trade-businesses-claim-1.2198308

    nope. The majority don't agree.


  • #1459
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,003 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Strikes are useless from the strikers pov. They lose pay. Biting off yer nose to spite yer face.

    All strikes and industrial disputes are eventually settled AROUND A TABLE.

    I would urge all to get a grip and sort it out.

    And it will be eventually, but loss of pay is a big price to pay for a delayed round of talks that will hammer out an agreement. That is the reality.

    History of industrial disputes tells us this.

    Don't be digging yer heels in. That only means loss of earnings.

    Terrible approach IMV. Who loses? Those who lose pay that's who. But why?

    Eventually it will be sorted. Talking and sorting is good. Losing pay is bad.


  • #1460
    Kermit.de.frog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,933 ✭✭✭✭Kermit.de.frog


    The union could lose far more than that if the courts rule against them and make them liable for loss of income.


  • #1461
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The union could lose far more than that if the courts rule against them and make them liable for loss of income.

    As sure didn't one poster already claim they will just change there name or start up a new siptu /nrbu union
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




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  • #1462
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    You do realise there are several links off that article. You know, the ones he says were ignored in the E&Y study.

    I had so many links open that I used a quote from an article not linked - not deliberately.
    Here is the link showing the 50% figure.
    Link

    If you want to call me a liar then fire ahead. Doesn't bother me.
    Your evidence that privatisation is bad disputed that.

    Therein lies the problem with drawing conclusions from reports or statistics; unless you have a good working knowledge of the subject you are unable to accurately interpret the data provided or critically assess the conclusions.

    The relevant passage from your link:
    Despite the limitations in developing such analyses, I am advised that on the basis of recent research undertaken on behalf of the National Transport Authority (NTA), the subvention levels for operations similar to Bus Éireann vary between 32% and 70%. This is based on a comparison of subvention levels in 4 countries, namely, Belgium, Netherlands, Sweden and Switzerland.
    If the Public Service Obligation payment is the only subsidy considered, the subvention to Bus Éireann in 2012 was 35% of their total PSO revenues. However if the payment for the Free Travel Scheme is included, 46% of Bus Éireann revenues are subsidised by the State. This places Bus Éireann in the low to middle of the range of subsidy payments of those countries compared.


    In the NTA’s recently published economic analyis of Direct Award Bus Contract in the Dublin market, it was stated that a comparative analysis of subvention levels across Europe indicated that levels of public transport subvention vary between 35 and 60 percent of revenue. It added that when all State interventions (including the PSO subvention, Free Travel Scheme, tax foregone as a result of the Taxsaver scheme, emergency funding and funding for the purchase of new buses) are taken into account, the level of subvention to Dublin Bus is at the upper end of the range and approaches 50%.


    The main thrust of that is the inclusion of the Free Travel Scheme means the subventions are considerably higher than the base figures. This is simply wrong. The Free Travel Scheme payments are in lieu of fares for those on the scheme, they are state support for those on welfare not subvention of transport companies.


    By any credible analysis the FT payments are incredibly low for the number of passes in circulation and actual journeys made (even the head of the Department of Social Protection has said so) and there is a good argument to be made that the cancellation of the scheme would actually increase the fare revenue for all CIE companies well above the current FT payments.


    Also If you are going to include FT as a subvention then you are saying that almost every private bus service in Ireland is also receiving a subvention as they also take FT payments.


    How about a comparison to Irelands other subvented bus service, the rural transport scheme? It's subvention figures are somewhere around the 90% mark, it costs the state something like €15 per passenger journey.


  • #1463
    Spanish Eyes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,003 ✭✭✭✭Spanish Eyes


    Gatling wrote: »
    As sure didn't one poster already claim they will just change there name or start up a new siptu /nrbu union

    That would be rubbish.

    The legal actions would be against the Unions as they are constituted at the time of the industrial actions.


  • #1464
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    You do realise there are several links off that article. You know, the ones he says were ignored in the E&Y study.

    I had so many links open that I used a quote from an article not linked - not deliberately.
    Here is the link showing the 50% figure.
    Link

    If you want to call me a liar then fire ahead. Doesn't bother me.
    Your evidence that privatisation is bad disputed that.
    Apologies, your 50% claim was not a lie/misquote - you have however, been misrepresenting the article.

    The 50% figure you provide in that link, for calculating subvention, is not a correct measure of subvention - it goes against EU standards - P58:
    Dublin Bus expresses concerns regarding the way in which government subvention was defined and calculated in the consultation documents.

    It states that ‘included as state interventions are PSC, Free Travel Scheme, tax forgone due to Taxsaver tickets, emergency funding and new bus purchases.
    Definitions of subvention in European public transport operations never include these categories as subvention and this results in the Technical Report not comparing like with like. As a result it wrongly depicts Dublin Bus to have a higher reliance on public funding than is actually the case.’
    http://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/Report_on_Bus_Eireann_Direct_Award_Contract.pdf

    In addition to that, here are my figures from earlier, calculating the subvention including the NTA contribution from new busses - which is still well below other compared EU subventions:
    Ok, I've found those figures (cost of new buses) in the reports, and have factored them in (PSO = Public Service Obligation subsidy, NTA = National Transport Authority capital investment/subsidy).
    Can ignore everything except bolded bits:
    Year|Revenue|PSO Subsidy|NTA Subsidy||Total Revenue (Rev+PSO+NTA)|Total Subsidy(PSO+NTA)|Subsidy Percentage
    2013|€204,128|€64,540|€37,400||€306,068|€101,940|33.31%
    2012|€191,054|€69,435|€32,900||€293,389|€102,335|34.88%
    2011|€178,311|€73,032|€7,700||€259,043|€80,732|31.17%
    2010|€182,153|€75,682|€9,300||€267,135|€84,982|31.81%
    2009|€196,307|€83,199|€6,800||€286,306|€89,999|31.43%
    2008|€203,668|€85,629|€28,766*||€318,063*|€114,395*|35.97%*
    2007|€200,364|€80,078|€77,745*||€358,187*|€157,823*|44.06%*
    2006|€189,272|€69,845|€77,750*||€336,867*|€147,595*|43.81%*
    2005| €181,453|€64,900|€22,159*||€268,512*|€87,059*|32.42%*
    2004|€177,553|€61,810|€56,000*||€295,363*|€117,810*|39.89%*
    2003|€172,937|€53,867|€34,987*||€261,791*|€88,854*|33.94%*
    |||||||
    Avg 03-13|€188,836|€71,092|€35,592*||€295,520*|€106,684*|36.10%*
    Avg 09-13|€190,391|€73,178|€18,820||€282,388|€91,998|32.58%
    * No NTA figures in the 2003-2008 reports, but many new buses added, so estimated based on 2013 bus cost. It's not clear how much of a portion of this funding is from Dublin Bus itself, so figure is almost certainly skewed/wrong.

    Some NTA figures are estimated and likely excessive (the 09-13 figures exclude those ones), but even when counting that, the subsidy is still quite low.


  • #1465
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Spanish Eyes wrote: »
    Strikes are useless from the strikers pov. They lose pay. Biting off yer nose to spite yer face.

    All strikes and industrial disputes are eventually settled AROUND A TABLE.

    I would urge all to get a grip and sort it out.

    And it will be eventually, but loss of pay is a big price to pay for a delayed round of talks that will hammer out an agreement. That is the reality.

    History of industrial disputes tells us this.

    Don't be digging yer heels in. That only means loss of earnings.

    Terrible approach IMV. Who loses? Those who lose pay that's who. But why?

    Eventually it will be sorted. Talking and sorting is good. Losing pay is bad.

    While you are essentially correct, everybody loses from strikes, the sad fact is that when the next round of talks take place the strikers will be in a stronger negotiating position as they have already proved their willingness to take action to back up the claim.

    Instead of the government/NTA acknowledging that the workers have a genuine grievance and are willing to back it up with action they refused to deal with the issue properly, allowed the workers to issue their ultimatum and carry it through.

    Now they will go back to the table and address the issues properly as there has been mass disruption, they could have done that previously before the disruption occurred.

    Donoghue issued a last minute statement vaguely guaranteeing the workers they wouldn't lose out, if he wanted to do that then why wasn't such a clause written into the tendering process already? This hasn't just happened overnight it has been going on for YEARS. For most of that time the NTA have been refusing to engage with the workers/unions at all, pretending that they had nothing to do with the workers situation when in fact they are central to the jobs/conditions at stake.


  • #1466
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The union could lose far more than that if the courts rule against them and make them liable for loss of income.

    There are a lot of people on here who are either hoping or relying on the unions losing in the courts so that this may be resolved.

    Personally speaking, I'd be looking for something more than what is in essence an even bet. Time for all to meet in the labour court.


  • #1467
    Infini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    Vic_08 wrote: »
    While you are essentially correct, everybody loses from strikes, the sad fact is that when the next round of talks take place the strikers will be in a stronger negotiating position as they have already proved their willingness to take action to back up the claim.

    Instead of the government/NTA acknowledging that the workers have a genuine grievance and are willing to back it up with action they refused to deal with the issue properly, allowed the workers to issue their ultimatum and carry it through.

    Now they will go back to the table and address the issues properly as there has been mass disruption, they could have done that previously before the disruption occurred.

    Donoghue issued a last minute statement vaguely guaranteeing the workers they wouldn't lose out, if he wanted to do that then why wasn't such a clause written into the tendering process already? This hasn't just happened overnight it has been going on for YEARS. For most of that time the NTA have been refusing to engage with the workers/unions at all, pretending that they had nothing to do with the workers situation when in fact they are central to the jobs/conditions at stake.

    I agree with you with the minister. Theres no point in coming out saying that "oh your jobs are secure lads" with absolutely nothing to back this up. The whole reason strikes break out in the 1st place is because trust has broken down. Noone EVER trusts any minister unless theyre backing their statements up.

    Drivers lose money for striking but when your there for more than half a year with many complicated issues expecially regarding contracts and pensions and getting nothing but horseshyte what do you expect would happen?

    Remember in the last few years the only outright strikes bar this latest one in each seperate CIE company was caused by unilateral changes by Management of workers pay and conditions. Beyond that I cant recall any strike in over 10 years from any of the companies before Fine Gobshyte came along.

    Even in all this i have seen NOTHING as to HOW theyre meant to make savings on these routes without cutting pay. Not only that but the bar was set high enough so only foriegn companies could realisticaly compete. We only need to see the track record of previous privatisations to see where this will end not only in other countries but this countries track record with other sectors as well.

    Many people are annoyed that theres no bus but sadly strikes are what happens when your dealing with both lousy management and political opportunists and your getting nowhere after over half a year. One thing to remember tho is if the unions really didnt care at all about the public they couldve striked on all weekdays when people are at their busiest. Most of the days are off peak weekend days and a bank holiday monday bar 2 which are fridays. Its a major inconvenience but its what happens when bad policy makers and poor management go making changes with no consideration of the consquences of these decisions on their workers.


  • #1468
    Gatling
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,291 ✭✭✭✭Gatling


    What's siptus 6 point agenda they want first and foremost.
    The NRBU said they were confident about talks the other day where siptu only wanted there agenda bowed to
    One union seems it wanted to talk (apparently going by there statement )
    And another union taking a militant view of our way or no way (going by there statement )
    360_F_102352090_ie3kLjDIvgrT1sxVDknWCUh8PxgMYzM7.jpg




  • #1469
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Gatling wrote: »
    What's siptus 6 point agenda they want first and foremost.
    The NRBU said they were confident about talks the other day where siptu only wanted there agenda bowed to
    One union seems it wanted to talk (apparently going by there statement )
    And another union taking a militant view of our way or no way (going by there statement )

    Off the top of my head they want a guarantee that all pay and conditions including pensions stay the same for any driver moving to a private operator and they want agreements put in place across the entire industry specifying min pay and terms


  • #1470
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Stheno wrote: »
    Off the top of my head they want a guarantee that all pay and conditions including pensions stay the same for any driver moving to a private operator and they want agreements put in place across the entire industry specifying min pay and terms

    Seems reasonable enough. Would prevent race to the bottom scenarios. I wouldn't have a problem with LC negotiated agreements.


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  • #1471
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    Seems reasonable enough. Would prevent race to the bottom scenarios. I wouldn't have a problem with LC negotiated agreements.

    Smacks to me of the unions trying to control the industry

    the affected staff already have tupe protection


  • #1472
    Uncle Ben
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,843 ✭✭✭Uncle Ben


    Stheno wrote: »
    Smacks to me of the unions trying to control the industry

    the affected staff already have tupe protection

    The LC isn't just made up of unions.


  • #1473
    Stheno
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,688 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Uncle Ben wrote: »
    The LC isn't just made up of unions.

    Im aware of that but it strikes me that with their demands the unions are trying to extend their control of the industry

    I still remember commuting from portlaoise to dublin years ago and the flash strikes on the trains which meant you literally didnt know if you coukd get to work

    unions in the transport industry are corrosive imo


  • #1474
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,154 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Kermit.de.frog wrote: »
    The union could lose far more than that if the courts rule against them and make them liable for loss of income.
    thats if they pay it. i wonder could they probably shut down for a day and come back under a new name? might be a way around it.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1475
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,154 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Stheno wrote: »
    Smacks to me of the unions trying to control the industry

    it doesn't. having minimum standards of terms and conditions and applying those across all tendered bus routes of the NTA is the right thing to do. it ensures fairness for all and the race to the bottom.
    Stheno wrote: »
    the affected staff already have tupe protection

    means nothing. grayhound
    Stheno wrote: »
    Im aware of that but it strikes me that with their demands the unions are trying to extend their control of the industry

    no they aren't. the demands are reasonable
    Stheno wrote: »
    I still remember commuting from portlaoise to dublin years ago and the flash strikes on the trains which meant you literally didnt know if you coukd get to work

    unfortunate but necessary, otherwise they wouldn't have happened.
    Stheno wrote: »
    unions in the transport industry are corrosive imo

    no they aren't and never will be. they are necessary and ensure that the transport industry has good terms and conditions and pay where they exist.

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #1476
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stheno wrote: »
    Smacks to me of the unions trying to control the industry

    the affected staff already have tupe protection

    So did Greyhound workers, wasn't much good though was it ?


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  • #1477
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    From that articleSo efficiency stays the same whether public or private.

    He arrives at the figure of 27% of DB revenue is subvention. Drill down further and you will seeIt's at the upper end, never mind well below the average of the cities he quotes That article says an average subvention would transform our bus service, we are already above it.

    He is unwittingly making a case for privatisation, while arguing we should everything public. Strange article.


    If you bothered to read the article he is criticizing the formula that EY used to get the 50% figure by including stuff that is not subvention like the free travel scheme, and also the comparison in which DB is on 27% is a comparison of direct subvention unless you also add all the other cities direct and indirect subventions as well you are not getting a meaningful comparison ( ignoring whether they should be included).


    Also if efficiency is the same in public or private why are we changing if as you claim it makes no difference ?


  • #1478
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Stheno wrote: »
    Im aware of that but it strikes me that with their demands the unions are trying to extend their control of the industry

    I still remember commuting from portlaoise to dublin years ago and the flash strikes on the trains which meant you literally didnt know if you coukd get to work

    unions in the transport industry are corrosive imo


    No they are trying to protect their members, any new employees for any new operator may or may not join a union but they would still have at least the minimum conditions agreed to.

    Comparing CIE today to the CIE of 30 or 40 years ago is pointless.


    The unions in transport have been in the last 20 to 30 years very restrained, to say they are corrosive is beyond hyperbole.


  • #1479
    Peppa Pig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Peppa Pig


    cdebru wrote: »
    Also if efficiency is the same in public or private why are we changing if as you claim it makes no difference ?
    First of all, it's not me making the claim. If you had bothered to read my post, never mind that mind numbing article, you would see that I said it may or may not be better.

    I'm not making any claim at all, just showing not all people agree with your opinion.


  • #1480
    cdebru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,761 ✭✭✭cdebru


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    First of all, it's not me making the claim. If you had bothered to read my post, never mind that mind numbing article, you would see that I said it may or may not be better.

    I'm not making any claim at all, just showing not all people agree with your opinion.

    But you did make a claim, you claimed we were above average on subvention, when the whole article is pointing out that the figures in the report are doctored to give that impression, by including stuff that isn't subvention, and only including other stuff for Dublin Bus and not for other operators.


  • #1481
    Peppa Pig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Peppa Pig


    cdebru wrote: »
    But you did make a claim, you claimed we were above average on subvention, when the whole article is pointing out that the figures in the report are doctored to give that impression, by including stuff that isn't subvention, and only including other stuff for Dublin Bus and not for other operators.
    I pointed out that somebody disagrees with the content of that article.
    peppa pig wrote:
    He arrives at the figure of 27% of DB revenue is subvention. Drill down further and you will see...
    Leo Varadker wrote:
    when all State interventions (including the PSO subvention, Free Travel Scheme, tax foregone as a result of the Taxsaver scheme, emergency funding and funding for the purchase of new buses) are taken into account, the level of subvention to Dublin Bus is at the upper end of the range and approaches 50%.
    Earlier qualified by:
    Peppa Pig wrote:
    There is nothing to suggest that this will be different for DB routes. It may be, but we are being told to accept it as fact

    If you think me quoting Leo Varadker is me claiming something when I have said it may not be, then grand, so be it.

    Why do you believe that FTP and bus supply should not fall into the subvention category, when comparing to other cities?


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  • #1482
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    I pointed out that somebody disagrees with the content of that article.


    Earlier qualified by:


    If you think me quoting Leo Varadker is me claiming something when I have said it may not be, then grand, so be it.

    Why do you believe that FTP and bus supply should not fall into the subvention category, when comparing to other cities?
    So you are posting links to things you now claim are incorrect and you don't agree with. Interesting debating strategy.


  • #1483
    Peppa Pig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,670 ✭✭✭Peppa Pig


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    So you are posting links to things you now claim are incorrect and you don't agree with. Interesting debating strategy.
    May or may not be = is incorrect.
    May or may not be = was correct but I don't agree with it.

    And my debating strategy is interesting.

    I still await verifiable facts that tendering = race to the bottom.
    There are none, same as tendering = great idea.
    It's all opinion. A lot of people are stating it as fact.


  • #1484
    KomradeBishop
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,981 ✭✭✭KomradeBishop


    No there's pretty clear evidence that has been provided to show that widescale tendering has not gone down well in other countries - all you have done is try to reinterpret provided statistics, using unsound methodology (by counting things as subsidies that the EU explicitly states should not be counted) in an attempt to dismiss provided evidence/stats.

    It's just a form of trying to act perpetually 'unconvinced' at any/all evidence provided, through nitpicking - to try and pour doubt so as to obscure the issue.

    That's exactly what people do when they want to pour doubt and spread bullshít on a topic: Try to reduce everything to 'just an opinion' - trying to dismiss all evidence provided as 'just opinion' as well, by pouring doubt on it in specious ways.


  • #1485
    Vic_08
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭Vic_08


    Peppa Pig wrote: »

    Why do you believe that FTP and bus supply should not fall into the subvention category, when comparing to other cities?

    Already answered, if you had bothered to read:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=95315500&postcount=1462

    Direct funding of fleet purchases should be included, as long as all similar schemes are included from comparison countries.


  • #1486
    cilldroichid
    Registered Users Posts: 15 ✭cilldroichid


    Peppa Pig wrote: »
    I still await verifiable facts that tendering = race to the bottom.
    There are none, same as tendering = great idea.
    It's all opinion. A lot of people are stating it as fact.

    Cost of diesel is the same for everybody, cost of new buses is the same for everybody, cost of new bus parts is the same for everybody and the cost of insurance and taxes is the same for everybody. The cost of labour is about the only way to put in a cheaper price for a tender. Private contractor A pays their drivers €16 an hour, private contractor B pays their drivers €14 an hour, private contractor B wins the the tender. Next time the tender is up private contractor A pays their drivers €12 an hour and wins the tender.

    None of the above is fact you might say except that is exactly what has to me as railway maintenance general operative. We're now working for €9 an hour with no union, no pension, no sick pay and what amounts to a zero hour contract of employment because the private contractor I work for has no other option in order to win tenders off Irish Rail.

    In my opinion the Dublin Bus and Bus Eireann drivers should do every thing within their powers to block tendering with out guaranteed employee equal pay and conditions and if means an all out strike so be it.


  • #1487
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Stheno wrote: »
    Off the top of my head they want a guarantee that all pay and conditions including pensions stay the same for any driver moving to a private operator and they want agreements put in place across the entire industry specifying min pay and terms
    Pure protectionism - everything will be benchmarked at Dublin Bus rates and work practices.

    If a private sector operator wants to run a more efficient service, we shouldn't hold them back by forcing them to adopt the work practices of the public sector.


  • #1488
    Infini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    hmmm wrote: »
    If a private sector operator wants to run a more efficient service, we shouldn't hold them back by forcing them to adopt the work practices of the public sector.

    Efficiency is one thing. Running it on the cheap is another.


  • #1489
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    I was under the impression that CIE saved quite a lot of money on fuel due to the amount of it they buy ? (Filling thousands of buses and a quite a few trains)

    Surely a private operator could not match them savings !


  • #1490
    kildarecommuter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 433 ✭✭kildarecommuter


    I'm presuming all the Union Bashers on here will be going to work tomorrow rather than enjoy the public holiday which was secured by the Trade Unions


  • #1491
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,154 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    hmmm wrote: »
    Pure protectionism - everything will be benchmarked at Dublin Bus rates and work practices.

    If a private sector operator wants to run a more efficient service, we shouldn't hold them back by forcing them to adopt the work practices of the public sector.

    how can they run the busses any more efficiently. most of the social routes themselves are unefficient by their nature. who said the minimum standards would be bench marked to dublin bus. and even if it was so what. having minimum standards across all tendered routes is a reasonable request

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



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  • #1492
    Icepick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    kildarecommuter wrote: »
    I'm presuming all the Union Bashers on here will be going to work tomorrow rather than enjoy the public holiday which was secured by the Trade Unions
    :rolleyes:


  • #1493
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,346 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I think DB and BE run pretty good services. Indeed when I travel back home to Donegal I prefer to take BE than drive. Comfortable buses with Wi-Fi is a winner vs a long drive.

    So it makes me wonder why the unions are against the tendering of the routes, surely they can work to win them...


  • #1494
    Infini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,573 ✭✭✭Infini


    jimmycrackcorm wrote: »
    I think DB and BE run pretty good services. Indeed when I travel back home to Donegal I prefer to take BE than drive. Comfortable buses with Wi-Fi is a winner vs a long drive.

    So it makes me wonder why the unions are against the tendering of the routes, surely they can work to win them...

    Political interference, Undercutting of the service via lower wages, privatisation by stealth are some of the reasons.


  • #1495
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    end of the road wrote: »
    how can they run the busses any more efficiently.
    The same way Ryanair broke the Aer Lingus monopoly, and the same way that the private bus companies have broken BE's monopoly on the routes they've been allowed to run. Anywhere that "public sector" companies have faced competition, they have struggled - and the unions know that unless the public are forced to travel with them, they will go on struggling.

    If BE & DB are efficient services, they should have no fear of competition.


  • #1496
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    hmmm wrote: »
    The same way Ryanair broke the Aer Lingus monopoly, and the same way that the private bus companies have broken BE's monopoly on the routes they've been allowed to run. Anywhere that "public sector" companies have faced competition, they have struggled - and the unions know that unless the public are forced to travel with them, they will go on struggling.

    If BE & DB are efficient services, they should have no fear of competition.

    so not bringing you where you want to go ?

    want to go to paris with ryanair ? no problem, just about 100 kilometers outside paris and a hundred euro bus journey.

    Or want to go to that small town between wicklow and wexford ? always bus eireann because and the private operators wont go in because theres no money in it.

    if the private operators get these routes they will still have to go into all these small towns and villages regardless and that will be the same journey time as bus eireann and same cost. the only mistake made by bus eireann is they should've gotten around to doing express routes before the private companies.


  • #1497
    hmmm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,205 ✭✭✭✭hmmm


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    so not bringing you where you want to go ?
    90 million people don't agree with your sneering. I suppose you think we should still be paying Aer Lingus 500 quid for a trip to London to "keep air travel in public ownership".


  • #1498
    J_Dublin15
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭J_Dublin15


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    want to go to paris with ryanair ? no problem, just about 100 kilometers outside paris and a hundred euro bus journey.

    Never let the facts get in a way of a good story:
    http://www.aeroportbeauvais.com/bus.php?lang=eng
    Or want to go to that small town between wicklow and wexford ? always bus eireann because and the private operators wont go in because theres no money in it.

    Bus Eireann go into the small towns where they make a loss before subsidy because they are paid to do so, not out of the kindness of their hearts, the privates don't because they are not paid to do so.

    If BE had to operate with no subsidy, they would also cancel the routes for the very same reasons as the privates do not operate them now.


  • #1499
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    hmmm wrote: »
    90 million people don't agree with your sneering. I suppose you think we should still be paying Aer Lingus 500 quid for a trip to London to "keep air travel in public ownership".

    You edited out my other points. No point debating with me if your only going to pick what you want to debate.

    So again if i want to go to Paris then it's aer lingus to bring me there because ryanair are too cheap to pay the fees on cdg.

    or if i want to go to new york, aer lingus again because they have great deals on them and ryanair won't go there

    and again that small town in between wicklow and wexford i want to visit , i only can use bus eireann because the private boys don't see enough profit to go in.


  • #1500
    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,964 ✭✭✭Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime


    J_Dublin15 wrote: »
    Never let the facts get in a way of a good story:
    http://www.aeroportbeauvais.com/bus.php?lang=eng



    Bus Eireann go into the small towns where they make a loss before subsidy because they are paid to do so, not out of the kindness of their hearts, the privates don't because they are not paid to do so.

    If BE had to operate with no subsidy, they would also cancel the routes for the very same reasons as the privates do not operate them now.

    An extra hour and 15 mins on my trip depending on traffic ? No thanks. Would rather just fly into Paris itself

    that's what I'm saying too, if the private lads get these routes its still going to be the same journey and times along with the same prices until they notice they aren't making as much money as hoped and throw in the towel on it


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  • #1501
    J_Dublin15
    Registered Users Posts: 217 ✭✭J_Dublin15


    Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime wrote: »
    and again that small town in between wicklow and wexford i want to visit , i only can use bus eireann because the private boys don't see enough profit to go in.

    You cannot compare a company being paid to operate a route, with a company who will not be paid to operate a route not operating it. The former will always have an advantage and make it impossible for anyone to compete.

    The ironic thing is you moan about this, but tendering would allow a level playing field where private and public companies are both able to get the same conditions when it comes to operating unprofitable routes.

    And tell me, if Bus Eireann are so great why are they removing stops from their Expressway services of small Towns because they are nonviable? After all, they are committed to such town's aren't they?


This discussion has been closed.
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