Rock is unppopular?

nyarlothothep · 18-02-2015 1:05pm #1

In the 60s you had an explosion of rock, psychedelia etc, then in the 70s hard rock, glam rock, prog rock, metal, then in the late 70s punk, 80s post punk, hair metal, thrash metal, the 90s, grunge, alternative, groove metal and in the 00s nu metal, the post punk revival (as much as it sucked) and bands like TMV, Mastodon and QoTSA making waves. But around 2008 it fizzled out and there has been a vacuum since. In each of these decades where one movement went into decline another took its place, but there is nothing now, nothing but Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran (an abominable artist completely lacking in originality, why do people like him I will never know) and Kanye West who is apparently a genius. Maybe it's where I am at the moment but even getting gigs which are electric rather than acoustic is difficult. People seem to have gone off rock in a big way, it's regarded as more of a cult music genre. Yes I know there are millions of rock bands doing great stuff in the far reaches of the internet but the elephant in the room is that rock is...dead?

blastman · 18-02-2015 1:14pm

Is that you, Gene?

nyarlothothep · 18-02-2015 1:15pm

Haha, he's right though about not being able to reach the heights of bands like Zep with the money and becoming godlike.

Links234 · 18-02-2015 1:35pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

but the elephant in the room is that rock is...dead?

Nope, I'd say it's just not in the limelight any more. It may never be at the heights of popularity it was in the glory days again, but that's not the same as being dead. Likewise, metal may never be as popular as it was in the 80's, but it's still alive and kicking.

nyarlothothep · 18-02-2015 1:41pm

Links234 wrote: »

Nope, I'd say it's just not in the limelight any more. It may never be at the heights of popularity it was in the glory days again, but that's not the same as being dead. Likewise, metal may never be as popular as it was in the 80's, but it's still alive and kicking.

Really? Most people I encounter don't like rock at all, it's basically singer songwriter music, hip hop and pop if they like if any music at all. I don't think rock is dead but it's probably come full circle and is in the same position as jazz. It's a pity that the kind of musical odysseys you used to get in the 70s are more or less shunned, for example Dazed and Confused in The Song Remains the Same, you just don't get bands that are willing to do that anymore or people that enjoy it. Basically it's seen as self indulgent but I think it's moreso musically interesting. I think music has become corporatised and conventional which is the antithesis of imagination and creativity. For example I came across a comment on youtube yesterday about a game: "The problem with today's developers is, they're not some bad ass metal head nerds sitting around drinking and coding games anymore, they're in luxurious office buildings with salaries. These pioneers of bad-assery just don't exist anymore. Reminds me of Early Blizzard too. They didn't care about Copyright or any b.s." Now I think this reflects where we are at the moment culturally. Rock isn't popular because we're in a new age of conservatism and plainness, its the new 1940s/1950s without the technological progress in cool stuff like rocketry or rock n'roll. So what we have now, acoustic guitar music, pop and hip hop variously reflects dullness/safeness and consumerism, the values which characterise this age.

Links234 · 18-02-2015 2:15pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Really? Most people I encounter don't like rock at all, it's basically singer songwriter music, hip hop and pop if they like if any music at all. I don't think rock is dead but it's probably come full circle and is in the same position as jazz. It's a pity that the kind of musical odysseys you used to get in the 70s are more or less shunned, for example Dazed and Confused in The Song Remains the Same, you just don't get bands that are willing to do that anymore or people that enjoy it. Basically it's seen as self indulgent but I think it's moreso musically interesting. I think music has become corporatised and conventional which is the antithesis of imagination and creativity.

I think there's definitely bands today who'll write those kinda musical odysseys you're talking about, since the 2000's anyway you've got Porcupine Tree's Anesthetize, Meshuggah's I, and loads of other stuff in the whole progressive metal scene, granted that's not rock but those kinda big grand songs do still happen and I wouldn't call them shunned either. Yeah, popular music has a certain dearth of talent, the likes of the X Factor and everything is pretty horrible.

I dunno what to say Nyarlothotep, if you're looking for rock like it was in the 60's and 70's and for it to be as popular as it was back then, you might be out of luck. Those days were the genesis of so many genres of modern music, they layed the foundation for everything that came after, you'll never have another Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin.

nyarlothothep · 18-02-2015 2:35pm

Links234 wrote: »

I think there's definitely bands today who'll write those kinda musical odysseys you're talking about, since the 2000's anyway you've got Porcupine Tree's Anesthetize, Meshuggah's I, and loads of other stuff in the whole progressive metal scene, granted that's not rock but those kinda big grand songs do still happen and I wouldn't call them shunned either. Yeah, popular music has a certain dearth of talent, the likes of the X Factor and everything is pretty horrible.

I dunno what to say Nyarlothotep, if you're looking for rock like it was in the 60's and 70's and for it to be as popular as it was back then, you might be out of luck. Those days were the genesis of so many genres of modern music, they layed the foundation for everything that came after, you'll never have another Black Sabbath or Led Zeppelin.

Yeah, I agree that you'll never have those bands again, but I was thinking more of the fluidity of movement, the kind of environment where you didn't really have to conform to any one genre or market and there was this storm of creativity which wasn't regulated as much by commercial interests. I think shows like the X Factor are a way of controlling public tastes which makes it a surer bet to sell products to them, the bit I'm perplexed by is their lasting popularity, you'd think at this stage people would be tired of them but seemingly not.

Links234 · 18-02-2015 2:45pm

Sorry, didn't see your edit before replying, but this is an interesting point

nyarlothothep wrote: »

For example I came across a comment on youtube yesterday about a game: "The problem with today's developers is, they're not some bad ass metal head nerds sitting around drinking and coding games anymore, they're in luxurious office buildings with salaries. These pioneers of bad-assery just don't exist anymore. Reminds me of Early Blizzard too. They didn't care about Copyright or any b.s." Now I think this reflects where we are at the moment culturally. Rock isn't popular because we're in a new age of conservatism and plainness, its the new 1940s/1950s without the technological progress in cool stuff like rocketry or rock n'roll. So what we have now, acoustic guitar music, pop and hip hop variously reflects dullness/safeness and consumerism, the values which characterise this age.

I think you bring up a fantastic comparison in gaming, early Blizzard are a good example, they were innovators. Diablo created an entire genre pretty much, Starcraft revolutionized strategy games, and World of Warcraft was the pinnacle of the MMORPG, we will never see it's like again. Now you've got a few big developers churning out big name franchise games regularly, another year another Assassins Creed or Call of Duty or generic formulaic shooter #12... whatever, you know what I mean. And they're showing utter contempt for their audience too, releasing utterly broken games to the public. Then you got the scourge of microtransactions and ****ty DLC (good DLC can be amazing tho, don't get me wrong) and pay2win crap.

BUT! That doesn't mean that gaming's not doing cool things, there's plenty of great indie developers now, I frankly loved games like FTL and Banished, and there's no end of praise for the likes of Kerbal Space Program, etc. You've still even got some of the 'Rock star' developers like Hideo Kojima.

Another comparison you could make is movies, we'll never have another 70's again, with the likes of Francis Ford Coppola and Spielberg and Scorcese doing whatever they want. But likewise, that doesn't mean that good movies aren't being made any more.

Links234 · 18-02-2015 2:47pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

you'd think at this stage people would be tired of them but seemingly not.

I've no idea how people watch half of what they do on TV, soaps and all sorts of mind numbing 'reality' shows. It's just something I don't think I'll ever understand

Takemyscars72 · 18-02-2015 9:28pm

Rock/Metal is still alive and kicking without a doubt. Aslong as there are rock and metal bands capable of playing arenas then there's nothing to worry about. Live music is what it's all about at the end of the day and I think its fair to say that rock and metal have produced a far greater amount of "must-see before you die" acts than every other genre combined. Bands like Black Stone Cherry, Alter Bridge, Biffy Clyro, Bring Me The Horizon, The Gaslight Anthem, Machine Head, A Day To Remember, Bullet For My Valentine, You Me At Six, 30 Seconds To Mars, Avenged Sevenfold, All Time Low, Lamb Of God & Five Finger Death Punch are all bands who have recently (last 5 years) made the jump to arenas and most look to be staying there. Granted not all of the bands mentioned will appeal to all who read this, but to say rock is dead ? Preposterous.

Anesthetize · 18-02-2015 11:33pm

I usually feel that people who have expanded their musical horizons well beyond rock and metal are less likely to start threads like these.

nyarlothothep · 19-02-2015 5:54pm

Oooh, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions! I listen to and play classical music on guitar and piano, also grew up listening to acid jazz and indie. But of course rock and metal is what I listen to most as I prefer it over other genres. But this detracts from the discussion which I found interesting up till now.

RayCon · 19-02-2015 7:07pm

Links234 wrote: »

I've no idea how people watch half of what they do on TV, soaps and all sorts of mind numbing 'reality' shows. It's just something I don't think I'll ever understand

I think Aldous Huxley's A Brave New World (as described in this comic strip) might go someway to answering this for you

http://biblioklept.org/2013/06/08/huxley-vs-orwell-the-webcomic-2/

Anesthetize · 19-02-2015 7:55pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Oooh, assumptions, assumptions, assumptions! I listen to and play classical music on guitar and piano, also grew up listening to acid jazz and indie. But of course rock and metal is what I listen to most as I prefer it over other genres. But this detracts from the discussion which I found interesting up till now.

Sorry but I find these kind of threads just completely stupid. If somebody thinks that all that's around now is Ed Sheeran and Taylor Swift they really need to stay on top of music more and start following new rock and metal releases.

Somnus · 19-02-2015 9:50pm

I know what you mean to an extent. I think part of it is that with so much music at our fingertips in the last ten year, there's kinda been a homogenisation of music to a degree. I think in a way musicians feel less confined into being in one particular style or scene.
That sort of music is probably more accessible to most people and thus that's what we see more of in the mainstream.

But there's always gonna be bands doing interesting things though. It just might take a bit of looking to find them.

Undergod · 21-02-2015 7:04pm

There's just as much creativity in rock as there ever was. You might be right that it's not as popular, but to compare it to the 1970s is futile; music is produced and consumed in such different circumstances now that any meaningful comparison would be really difficult.

And Kanye West is a bit of a brilliant musician, even if he's a knob.

BlaasForRafa · 22-02-2015 2:16am

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Rock isn't popular because we're in a new age of conservatism and plainness, its the new 1940s/1950s without the technological progress in cool stuff like rocketry or rock n'roll. So what we have now, acoustic guitar music, pop and hip hop variously reflects dullness/safeness and consumerism, the values which characterise this age.

I think you've got a point there, major labels want artists that are easily controlled and that won't rock the boat. Also labels won't invest in artists any more, if someone doesn't immediately sell they're dropped whereas in the past they'd have 2 or 3 albums to build up sales and their audience through tours supported by the label.

Also ease of communication has perversely made it more difficult for groups of bands to develop distinctive local scenes. In the past you'd have things like Bay Area thrash, Florida death metal, Norwegian Black Metal which would be able to develop their own distinctive sound (often based around a single studio or producer) before bursting out on the world. Now, everybody is getting influence from so many different quarters that it's difficult for them to build their own distinctive character.

There's other things too like everyone using pro-tools to get rid of mistakes which makes groups sound bland and lacking in character and groups getting their CDs mastered so hot that they make listening to the whole album unbearable.

Anesthetize · 22-02-2015 8:43am

Let me ask this question. Do people want rock to be popular? Somehow I feel that if rock was popular right now the three major record companies would be plundering it, watering it down and turning it into something it's not in order to pander it to a wider audience.

Take grunge for example. It went from Mudhoney, Tad and Bleach-era Nirvana to rubbish like Creed, Puddle of Mudd and Nickelback all because of the majors. I think rock is just fine where it is at the moment.

wandatowell · 23-02-2015 2:08pm

I miss a good guitar solo on the radio.

I also miss listening to the radio.

blastman · 23-02-2015 5:05pm

wandatowell wrote: »

I miss a good guitar solo on the radio.

I also miss listening to the radio.

Buy an internet radio

Tonyandthewhale · 23-02-2015 5:39pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

In each of these decades where one movement went into decline another took its place, but there is nothing now, nothing but Taylor Swift, Ed Sheeran and Kanye West who is apparently a genius. Maybe it's where I am at the moment but even getting gigs which are electric rather than acoustic is difficult.

What about garage rock? It's a lot poppier than heavy metal or hardcore punk but I think it's fair to say it follows in the same vein as the punk and grunge movements which went before it. Scratch at the skin of the likes of Ty Segal, Thee Oh Sees or Mac DeMarco and you won't be long finding the Butthole Surfers and Sonic Youth. And yeah there are plenty of acoustic singer song writers on the go at the moment but I still find myself going to see electric guitar lead acts on a weekly basis in Dublin and Galway. Plenty going on in the local scene that's fairly exciting.

And if you think popular music outside of rock is dull maybe you should stop listening to Taylor Swift and pay attention to Kanye's music rather than his ego. And beyond that what about Run the Jewels? Death Grips? Zomby? The latest Aphex Twins stuff? Die Antwoord? Each to their own if you don't like them but it's not fair to say that popular music is all dull and conservative these days.

nyarlothothep · 23-02-2015 9:57pm

Tonyandthewhale wrote: »

What about garage rock? It's a lot poppier than heavy metal or hardcore punk but I think it's fair to say it follows in the same vein as the punk and grunge movements which went before it. Scratch at the skin of the likes of Ty Segal, Thee Oh Sees or Mac DeMarco and you won't be long finding the Butthole Surfers and Sonic Youth. And yeah there are plenty of acoustic singer song writers on the go at the moment but I still find myself going to see electric guitar lead acts on a weekly basis in Dublin and Galway. Plenty going on in the local scene that's fairly exciting.

And if you think popular music outside of rock is dull maybe you should stop listening to Taylor Swift and pay attention to Kanye's music rather than his ego. And beyond that what about Run the Jewels? Death Grips? Zomby? The latest Aphex Twins stuff? Die Antwoord? Each to their own if you don't like them but it's not fair to say that popular music is all dull and conservative these days.

I have listened to Kanye and the man is not a genius. He expels utterly mediocre music, if that. I would say some of it is total tripe and am completely confounded by idea that he is any way, shape or form a genius, it really is emperor's new clothes syndrome, a mass delusion. Another thing I would criticise is the dominance of garage rock in rock/indie scenes for well over a decade now, it's stale and incredibly limited as a genre, it might have been refreshing 15 years ago with the retro postpunk/garage bands and in the 60s but there's only so much you can milk from it before it gets really, incredibly boring. So when yet another band plays garage rock it's pretty much over before it begins as it's just dull, limited music with little if any imagination. I don't listen to Taylor Swift or Ed Sheeran, they're like an enveloping background noise, I notice that person after person likes this kind of music and would run a million miles away from anything a little rock or with any kind of attitude. I think that while there are bands out there, as one poster put it, it would be nice to hear a guitar solo on the radio, it's just that there has been a cultural shift to lite music, with rock as a genre on the margins, maybe closer to popular tastes compared to jazz but definitely on the margins and it's harder for bands to tap into the cultural consciousness if they deviate even a little from what's prescribed nowadays and god help them if they're something like a progressive band or play anything heavy but are eccentric for want of a better word, because while they might, if they're very lucky and tenacious, achieve cult success they will be shunned by everyone else.

Anesthetize · 23-02-2015 10:10pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Another thing I would criticise is the dominance of garage rock for well over a decade now.

Ehhhhh it hasn't been dominating. Garage rock was quite popular around 2001-2003 with the likes of The White Stripes and The Kills but then peltered out. It's only in the past couple of years with artists like Ty Segall (and his many musical projects) and Royal Blood that there's been any sort of popular revival.

nyarlothothep · 23-02-2015 10:46pm

Anesthetize wrote: »

Ehhhhh it hasn't been dominating. Garage rock was quite popular around 2001-2003 with the likes of The White Stripes and The Kills but then peltered out. It's only in the past couple of years with artists like Ty Segall (and his many musical projects) and Royal Blood that there's been any sort of popular revival.

Insofar as I go to gigs and it's championed by indie mags, pray tell what was the last indie sensation apart from whatever genres/obscure bands you're going to list etc it's been a constant thread/presence. And come on, don't start your post with Ehhhh, that's almost as bad are Errrr, a common little internet meme on forums among the sneerier, yes I know you emphatically disagree.

Anesthetize · 23-02-2015 10:49pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

Insofar as I go to gigs and it's championed by indie mags, pray tell what was the last indie sensation apart from whatever genres/obscure bands you're going to list etc it's been a constant thread/presence.

Examples?

Links234 · 23-02-2015 10:57pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

it's harder for bands to tap into the cultural consciousness if they deviate even a little from what's prescribed nowadays and god help them if they're something like a progressive band or play anything heavy but are eccentric for want of a better word, because while they might, if they're very lucky and tenacious, achieve cult success they will be shunned by everyone else.

Does a band need to achieve worldwide acclaim to be considered good? Why do you need to hear a guitar solo on the radio? Why the need to have music you like on the radio and in everyone's cultural consciouness before you can just enjoy something? Like I really don't get it.

I don't know nyarlothothep, maybe this is just me, but I get the sense from you that you've arrived at a conclusion and you're sticking to it come hell or high water. Everything's bad nowadays, there's no creativity any more, it's all hopeless and depressing and homogenized and it's soulless product... yadda yadda yadda.

Now I can't begrudge anyone a good old moan, it's great to let a vent. But I just don't see it myself, and quite honestly, there is so much amazing new music out there that I find I just can't keep up with it all, I really can't. There's albums and new bands that I seriously want to check out, but I got way too much to listen to as it is.

I know my tastes are a niche among niches around here, but was it yourself who said something about all bands using pro tools these days and not being able to play properly and such... This is one of my favourite bands, Dir En Grey, and their new album was freakin' incredible, it came with a pretty cool DVD where they did a few songs live in studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORg6RSaicjs

And I know most people aren't gonna enjoy it, but that's ok too.

Anesthetize · 23-02-2015 11:00pm

If I wanted to hear a guitar solo on the radio then I'll put on some classic rock radio station. If they're referring to stations like 2fm I don't know why anyone would want to listen to it in the first place let alone hear a guitar solo on it.

nyarlothothep · 23-02-2015 11:04pm

Links234 wrote: »

Does a band need to achieve worldwide acclaim to be considered good? Why do you need to hear a guitar solo on the radio? Why the need to have music you like on the radio and in everyone's cultural consciouness before you can just enjoy something? Like I really don't get it.

I don't know nyarlothothep, maybe this is just me, but I get the sense from you that you've arrived at a conclusion and you're sticking to it come hell or high water. Everything's bad nowadays, there's no creativity any more, it's all hopeless and depressing and homogenized and it's soulless product... yadda yadda yadda.

Now I can't begrudge anyone a good old moan, it's great to let a vent. But I just don't see it myself, and quite honestly, there is so much amazing new music out there that I find I just can't keep up with it all, I really can't. There's albums and new bands that I seriously want to check out, but I got way too much to listen to as it is.

I know my tastes are a niche among niches around here, but was it yourself who said something about all bands using pro tools these days and not being able to play properly and such... This is one of my favourite bands, Dir En Grey, and their new album was freakin' incredible, it came with a pretty cool DVD where they did a few songs live in studio:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORg6RSaicjs

And I know most people aren't gonna enjoy it, but that's ok too.

I guess where I'm coming is from a communal position, and don't get me wrong, I'm a massive misanthrope who would like to live alone in a castle upon a hill away from civilisation, but apart from that, I guess music taps into a shared consciousness, a mood that characterises a place in time, the problem with now is that whatever the vibe/zeitgeist is corporate, limited and for bands/artists making a career in music is pretty hard, it always has been but it couldn't be more inhospitable, especially for those people who don't conform to whatever the xfactor disseminates. I can't articulate what I want to get across sorry but it's how I feel about the world now.

Links234 · 23-02-2015 11:16pm

It's all sounding a bit...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pa6SGYWADU

(Sorry)

Undergod · 23-02-2015 11:37pm

nyarlothothep wrote: »

I have listened to Kanye and the man is not a genius. He expels utterly mediocre music, if that. I would say some of it is total tripe and am completely confounded by idea that he is any way, shape or form a genius, it really is emperor's new clothes syndrome, a mass delusion.

Do you listen to much hip hop and rap in general? He's been a huge influence on hip hop and he's undoubtedly a hugely talented producer. Him producing most of The Blueprint, then making a career change and releasing such a varied catalogue of albums is more than just a mass delusion mate. You might not like him; I don't like all his stuff by any means but he's good at what he does.

nyarlothothep · 23-02-2015 11:49pm

Undergod wrote: »

Do you listen to much hip hop and rap in general? He's been a huge influence on hip hop and he's undoubtedly a hugely talented producer. Him producing most of The Blueprint, then making a career change and releasing such a varied catalogue of albums is more than just a mass delusion mate. You might not like him; I don't like all his stuff by any means but he's good at what he does.

No, I listen to some rap eg Ice T, Grandmaster Flash, Public Enemy and the like and generally dislike hip hop and RnB, I think these genres are generally lacking in terms of musicianship, musical creativity, complexity and depth, lyrically a lot of rap is complete trash nowadays, well there was always that element, Dr Dre's **** You is a perfect example of what I hate about rap, it's vulgar and retarded, at least try some innuendo, Kanye lyrics also are beyond a joke. No he's definitely a perfect example of the emperor's new clothes and personifies everything that is horrifically crass and unoriginal about today's society. It's more than possible for an entire society to be under the sway of a mass delusion, a chorus of voices chanting the same words does not make them right and I'm not saying this about Kanye but pointing out that just because there is a consensus among a large minority/majority doesn't make them right, it's possible for the group to be wrong sometimes! By all means though, post an example of what you think would be an example of his best work, I am very curious about why people think him such a god.

Rock is unppopular?

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