Muay Thai and strength work, wrecked

TheSegal · 21-10-2015 10:46am #1

I took up Muay Thai 4 weeks ago for a more sociable way of keeping fit as opposed to just being under a barbell all the time and i'm loving it so far (despite the severe lack of co-ordination!). The one thing i'm finding though is with training twice a week for Muay Thai (Tuesday, Thursday) and two strength sessions (Monday, Friday) i'm absolutely wrecked throughout the rest of the week!

I'm 28 and get between 7-8 hours of sleep every night and eat moderately well, odd day I might stay late at work and not have time for dinner before training and end up picking up milk, fruit, and nuts to eat before I go to bed. Other than that I get enough protein and fats in everyday, carbs are fairly low since I only get them from veg and small amounts of fruit.

My question is am I going to adapt to training this much or will I have to remove one of the strength sessions? The Muay Thai is far to good to give up!

deadlybuzzman · 21-10-2015 12:30pm

I was in a similar situation years back where I was playing football doing MMA and trying to bodybuild all at the one time. Between everything I was doing 8 sessions per week which left me in bits, over trained and constantly wrecked.
You're best bet is to cut way back on the amount you're doing in the strength sessions, e.g. stick to low rep sets. Leave out any high rep stuff that will fatigue you for a while and take it from there.

ninamc · 21-10-2015 12:57pm

In fairness you were doing 8 sessions, he's only doing 4. Your body will adjust OP. You're 28, eat well and sleep well, you should be well able. Maybe every 3 or 4 weeks take an evening off, so you have 2 consecutive nights to re-energise.

deadlybuzzman · 21-10-2015 1:31pm

ninamc wrote: »

In fairness you were doing 8 sessions, he's only doing 4. Your body will adjust OP. You're 28, eat well and sleep well, you should be well able. Maybe every 3 or 4 weeks take an evening off, so you have 2 consecutive nights to re-energise.

Absolutely I was doing a lot more but it's the same principle, ease up a bit on the gym stuff and see how it goes from there.
At the end of the day you have to listen to your body so once he's adjusted maybe he can go back to what he's doing now maybe incorporate more rest like you said etc.
Basically play it by ear

TheSegal · 21-10-2015 1:39pm

Thanks for the replies everyone, think I might decrease the volume during the strength sessions and gradually start building it back up again.

Zillah · 21-10-2015 3:02pm

Starch would probably help.

davmol · 21-10-2015 4:32pm

Your body will adapt.Maybe every 4 weeks take a week off and let your body fully heal and recover.Attack again and see how you are 5 weeks later and if you are adapting.

jimmii · 21-10-2015 4:35pm

I was the same at first I was doing 3 sessions of Muay Thai plus a couple of sessions in the gym plus another fight class. At first it was horrible and I was wondering how I had got myself into this mess now a couple of months down the line and I feel comfortable throwing in another class or maybe making the sessions a little longer.

Dtp1979 · 21-10-2015 4:43pm

TheSegal wrote: »

Thanks for the replies everyone, think I might decrease the volume during the strength sessions and gradually start building it back up again.

Are you sure you're eating enough? Are you allowing extra calories for all these extra workouts? As others said, this is also new to your body so it will take time to adapt

davmol · 21-10-2015 4:48pm

Also,killing on the strength training and going for a MT class the following day isn't ideal either.

Muscles need time to rest and recover.

Mellor · 22-10-2015 7:34am

davmol wrote: »

Also,killing on the strength training and going for a MT class the following day isn't ideal either.

Muscles need time to rest and recover.

MT isn't really a similar stress to strength training though.
It's definitely possible to do both. But you have to train smart. You aren't going to be able to run smolov, or GVT along side MT.

@TheSegal, my first guess is that you aren't eating enough, in particular not getting enough carbs around training time. Do you have any weight/mass goals at the moment? Like;

Lose weight/fat
Stay same weight but get leaner/toned
Build muscle

It's easy to do both with smart programming, mixing light and heavy session. etc. "Strength sessions" could really be anything. 4 sessions isn't really that much tbh, no reason it can't work.

I do BJJ/MMA and strength training. This week was a light week, and I'll do 6 sessions by friday (weekend off). A heavier week might be 8 + sessions (sunday off).

TheSegal · 22-10-2015 10:03am

I'm currently trying to build a bit of mass with the strength training, my calories are between 3000 and 3500, i'm a short arse at 69kg trying to get to 73kg and only 165cm tall so hoping this is a perfect amount of calories. I was thinking of increasing it to about 3750 due to the extra Muay Thai sessions. I'm trying to do a clean bulk hence the lack of carbs, last time I did a dirty bulk (ate everything I could) and I felt like crap most of the time.

I'll add in some carbs on MT days and see how it affects me, don't know how some of you guys can do 8+ sessions a week and not die from exhaustion!

Mellor · 22-10-2015 11:38am

On 3500 cals you should be fine tbh. But no harm upping carb ratio either.
What's you strength work look like?

I'm often sore from training but it's usually from shin on shin kicks and rarely DOMS

TheSegal · 22-10-2015 11:49am

Strength work revolves mainly around squats and deadlifts. Monday would usually be something like:

3k mainly uphill cycle to gym
Warmup with some calisthenics and foam roller
Back Squats: 3x5 @ 85% (1RM = 135kg)
Front Squats: 3x5 @ 85% (1RM = 100kg)
Clean and Jerk: 5x2 @ 75% (1RM = 70kg)
Pullups alternated with chinups
Calf work (Badly tore a calf muscle last year and I never want to experience the pain of it again!)
Core work (Fixing some APT at the min)
Stretching

The Friday session then focuses on Deadlifts and rowing. My upper body work is severely lacking at the moment.

discus · 22-10-2015 12:16pm

How many gods are you answering to here?

Your carb ratio is probably in the toilet. If you are training MT you need fuel, simple as. You can't 'clean bulk' while gaining strength, and learning a new martial art as hard going as MT. Get the carbs in with potatoes/rice or other traditional carb source, and enjoy your training! Don't write off the rest of your week for the sake of 4 training sessions.

My Tl;dr comes from Zillah!

Starch would probably help.

Mellor · 22-10-2015 12:17pm

If that's everything, the glaring issue is the upper/lower balance and a complete lack of pushing. A more rounded strength approach might be easier to cope with.

davmol · 22-10-2015 2:31pm

Mellor wrote: »

MT isn't really a similar stress to strength training though.
It's definitely possible to do both. But you have to train smart. You aren't going to be able to run smolov, or GVT along side MT.

@TheSegal, my first guess is that you aren't eating enough, in particular not getting enough carbs around training time. Do you have any weight/mass goals at the moment? Like;
Lose weight/fat

Stay same weight but get leaner/toned

Build muscle

It's easy to do both with smart programming, mixing light and heavy session. etc. "Strength sessions" could really be anything. 4 sessions isn't really that much tbh, no reason it can't work.

I do BJJ/MMA and strength training. This week was a light week, and I'll do 6 sessions by friday (weekend off). A heavier week might be 8 + sessions (sunday off).

What I was suggesting was don't kill every strength session.By doing many reps with many sets at a heavy load your legs the next day will not be up for 2.5 hours of MT.
Ive done in many times and even the skipping warm up was tough.Then add inmany rounds on the bag along with rounds of sparring at the end will leave your legs feeling very tired.

If you want to get through all the classes until you adapt and increase your fitness level then don't go balls out at every strength training session,gradually increase.

Mellor · 22-10-2015 11:29pm

davmol wrote: »

What I was suggesting was don't kill every strength session.By doing many reps with many sets at a heavy load your legs the next day will not be up for 2.5 hours of MT.

I would consider high rep/set/volume as training smart. That doesn't mean you can't go heavy, or lift progressively.
I've hit numerous PRs on low volume work along side MT and BJJ sessions.

And the OP isn't complaining that his legs aren't able for muay thai after strength. So what you are describing is probably not the issue. He is complaining about being wrecked throughout the week. I imagine sorting out the diet will show a big return.

davmol · 23-10-2015 4:39pm

For a newbie like OP the lactic acid after a hard weights sessions can hang around for 48 hours.That coupled with a long strenuous MT session(the day after) will do nothing to rid the muscles of LA so carrying a cumulative effect of being tired.

A break for a week will allow the body to rid itself of any lactic acid,allow DOMS(if any) to subside and allow the body to repair itself and adapt to the stress ie become fitter.

Diet will go so far but cant correct for body/muscle adaptation,only stress(adding new asks on the body) and recovery can aid that.

Waggaboo · 23-10-2015 4:51pm

I was in the same boat a few years ago OP. If I were you, I'd err on the side of caution and just dial back the strength for a few weeks and up the carbs a bit. Prioritise the MT until you get used to it and once you become more efficient, you'll have more in the tank for strength training.

FWIW, I wouldn't break the habit of going to the gym on your strength days. Either go and do lighter loads or focus on a bit of mobility. Just don't kill yourself there. Personally, I stuck to the big lifts for 3/5*5s but went back to about 75%. It gave me a chance to maintain the habit, not go cold turkey from the lifts and think about my form. I threw in a bit of mobility and was in and out in about 40mins.

And throw a few spuds on your plate ;-)

Mellor · 24-10-2015 1:00am

davmol wrote: »

For a newbie like OP the lactic acid after a hard weights sessions can hang around for 48 hours.

Lactic acid clears in 20-40 mins. Not sure where you got 48 hours from.

That coupled with a long strenuous MT session(the day after) will do nothing to rid the muscles of LA so carrying a cumulative effect of being tired.

Actually active recovery clears lactic avid faster than doing nothing. Somewhere around 80% of lactate threshold is fastest.
Lactic acid also doesn't make your muscles tired, or sore.

A break for a week will allow the body to rid itself of any lactic acid,allow DOMS(if any) to subside and allow the body to repair itself and adapt to the stress ie become fitter.

DOMS aren't caused my lactic acid, that's just some bad science from the 70's

Diet will go so far but cant correct for body/muscle adaptation,only stress(adding new asks on the body) and recovery can aid that.

I'm not suggesting diet will fix DOMS. He's not complaining of DOMs. It's really easy to do two strength sessions a week without DOMs.

TheSegal · 29-10-2015 11:03am

Thanks for all of the advice guys. I've increased my carbs throughout the day and reduced the volume of my strength work dramatically, i'm already feeling an improvement! Going to start slowly increasing the strength work volume after Christmas, my body should be well used to the MT sessions by then

MartyMcFly84 · 29-10-2015 1:11pm

I'm often sore from training but it's usually from shin on shin kicks and rarely DOMS

Are you not using shin pads? what kind of hard core gym are you training in

Mellor · 29-10-2015 2:25pm

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

Are you not using shin pads? what kind of hard core gym are you training in

Lol, More often than not it's because I forgot them.
"It's ok, we can go light. Work on picking the shot". But there's always one.

Muay Thai and strength work, wrecked

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