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How much is too much and how much is too little for an engagement ring

  • 23-07-2014 8:35pm
    #1
    derferjam
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭derferjam


    In particular to Irish people how much should I spend on an engagement ring. All I know is that she would like to have a rose gold and that her finger is about the same size as my little finger. I want it to be a surprise so I'm not going to have her with me when buying it and in a way I prefer that as it adds to the surprise:eek:


«1

Comments

  • #2
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Spend what you can afford. My husband didn't have a limit per se but equally I had an idea ofwhat I wanted and would be comfortable spending. Don't base it on what you think you should be spending.


  • #3
    derferjam
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭derferjam


    My fear is that when the ring is to be insured my wife(well hopefully) will then know how much I spent and having looked on the net rings go from 800 to 10,000euro so any idea help?????


  • #4
    qo2cj1dsne8y4k
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,646 ✭✭✭✭qo2cj1dsne8y4k


    Whatever you can afford, I think it's the gesture more than the price. My ring was just under a thousand, but I don't like jewellery and I didn't want a ring. After him insisting, We found one I loved, and that was the price.


  • #5
    Millem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    derferjam wrote: »
    In particular to Irish people how much should I spend on an engagement ring. All I know is that she would like to have a rose gold and that her finger is about the same size as my little finger. I want it to be a surprise so I'm not going to have her with me when buying it and in a way I prefer that as it adds to the surprise:eek:

    Tbh for me it's all about the design of ring not the price tag! I had a very clear idea of what I wanted eg carat quality, size etc so that dictated price. Saying that if we had a smaller budget I would still have gotten a fab ring but I would of gotten a coloured gemstone which are equally as nice if not nicer :)


  • #6
    DoctorEdgeWild
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,009 ✭✭✭DoctorEdgeWild


    In my opinion, the price means nothing. If he/she finds a ring that they love and it costs 20 quid then that's the right ring.

    I think some people spend more time, effort and money on the many aspects of weddings to impress others outside the relationship for some reason. I can't really understand it.

    Oh, and please don't think I'm implying anything about you OP or anyone who does go big on a ring/wedding. A very personal thing, different for everyone.


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  • #7
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Go with what you can afford. My favourite bit of jewellery is a 30 punt ring my husband bought me for doing my leaving. It's a bit of old tat but its priceless to me and means more to me than anything else I own.


  • #8
    Millem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    derferjam wrote: »
    My fear is that when the ring is to be insured my wife(well hopefully) will then know how much I spent and having looked on the net rings go from 800 to 10,000euro so any idea help?????

    Honestly she won't care how much you spent! My ring is valued for more than what it cost. I only know how much it cost as I was there when he bought it!


  • #9
    ene
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 731 ✭✭✭ene


    my engagement ring cost about 400 pound and i adore it!

    it isn't the money she will care about!


  • #10
    derferjam
    Registered Users Posts: 197 ✭✭derferjam


    i have been talking to a female friend and she said anything from 3000 and 5000 surely this is a bit much i only earn 25000 a year


  • #11
    Sebastian Dangerfield
    Registered Users Posts: 1,825 ✭✭✭Sebastian Dangerfield


    I proposed recently and spent just under a months salary (after tax). I had been quite sneaky with subtle questions when she mentioned other peoples rings, so I had a fair idea of what she wanted which helped me in my search. She has a cheap ring she wears on the same finger of her right hand, so i borrowed it and brought it along for sizing.

    My only tip would be to get the best value you can for whatever you spend. I wasnt happy with the quality of what Fields etc had to offer for the price they were quoting. I used Voltaire Diamonds and feel I got a lot more value. She told me they have rings from €1,000 plus - not sure if that fits into your budget. Theyll give you the full cert for the insurance. I had someone on Abbey St recommended too (Patrick Glynn?) - both dont have the overheads of a high street jeweller so you get more for your money in my opinion. Id really recommend Voltaire - they engraved the ring for practically nothing, and have been very helpful with aftersales service.

    With regards to her finding out the price of the ring via insurance, I just insured it for her to avoid that problem. €69 a year, didnt break the bank.

    Good luck


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  • #12
    Millem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    derferjam wrote: »
    i have been talking to a female friend and she said anything from 3000 and 5000 surely this is a bit much i only earn 25000 a year

    Seriously don't mind that nonsense. I would second Patrick Glynn, also check out Martin gear (on Mary st), thomas gear (in ilac). I know martin gear offers 14k gold and palladium which would be a cheaper option. I found they were all better value than volitaire for the style I wanted. If you are looking at coloured gemstones check out pearl perfect in terenure.


  • #13
    Gatica
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,300 ✭✭✭Gatica


    I think a month's salary is quite common, if you're willing to spend that much OP, then that's a common guide to go by.
    It's very well to say spend what you can afford and the cost doesn't matter, but if your gf is not going to be the one picking the ring, I can understand why you don't want it to be too cheap.
    You mentioned rose gold, there are lovely rose gold rings online and I've seen some beautiful ones on Etsy, though I don't know what's the story with paying so much for an online transaction.


  • #14
    Shedite27
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,435 ✭✭✭Shedite27


    derferjam wrote: »
    In particular to Irish people how much should I spend on an engagement ring. All I know is that she would like to have a rose gold and that her finger is about the same size as my little finger. I want it to be a surprise so I'm not going to have her with me when buying it and in a way I prefer that as it adds to the surprise:eek:

    If you're buying it for her, take a ring she wears occasionally along with you to get the size right.

    And FYI, I spent a little over a months salary, but really it's whatever you want.


  • #15
    jonnyfingers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭jonnyfingers


    I would echo the advice of others and say spend what you're happy with, but not necessarily what you can afford.

    In my own experience I bought a token ring and then we picked the proper ring out together. I had a maximum budget as all our savings were pretty much gone from moving to the UK so I had to save for a few months to afford the ring. Now at the time I had decent job, it paid reasonably well but living expenses in London are not cheap so could I only save a certain amount per month while still paying the bills. In the end I think I saved what I could for 6 months and had around £3000. I told her what my maximum budget for the ring was, around £2000 as I wanted to keep some savings in reserve, and she ended up picking one that was a bit cheaper than that as it was the ring she liked. What I didn't realise was how quickly things can move on from there and the other expenses that quickly mount up. We were travelling home to Ireland soon after the engagement so went looking at venues, found one we liked and had to put a deposit of €1000 down. We also celebrated a little, going out for a meal, drinks with friends, had a couple of engagement parties, one in London and one in Ireland and before I knew it all the savings were gone. If I had spent all the savings on the ring we would not have been able to do all the other stuff straight away, we'd have to wait for a couple of months until the savings were built back up again.

    Another point is as we didn't spend an exorbitant amount on the engagement ring we were able to budget for a similar amount for a really nice wedding ring. We have a few friends who spent a sickening amount on an engagement ring and then could only afford a very plain wedding ring. That's fine if they're happy to do that but just thought I'd point it out as it might be something to consider for yourselves.

    Anyway best of luck with the proposal and I'm sure whatever ring you get will be perfect.


  • #16
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Did anyone get married without getting an engagement ring?


  • #17
    lazygal
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Did anyone get married without getting an engagement ring?

    My mother and mother in law. Neither wear wedding rings either.


  • #18
    mozattack
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,908 ✭✭✭mozattack


    Answer:

    Poor people will say, "not much, it is the thought that counts"

    Well off people will quote some obscene price and an "interesting" story on how long it took to find the "perfect ring"

    Snooze


  • #19
    eviltwin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    Did anyone get married without getting an engagement ring?

    I don't have one, you don't need one, its a tradition but its no longer seen as an essential part of the process.


  • #20
    Dangel4x4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭Dangel4x4


    derferjam wrote: »
    i have been talking to a female friend and she said anything from 3000 and 5000 surely this is a bit much i only earn 25000 a year

    Your friends a clown. Spending 20% of your salary is ridiculous.

    Spend what you can afford. There are enough people in this country up to their eyes in debt for non-essentials...


  • #21
    Wizzy2011
    Registered Users Posts: 121 ✭✭Wizzy2011


    Actually made my better half's ring myself...well with the help of my grandad and dad, both ex jewellers, guiding me through the process. Cost just over 2k in total, and several attempts in silver before I perfected her ring in platinum. Really glad with the finished product. In regards to her size, make sure you don't go for a ring size matching the ring finger of right hand as often the prominent hand is half size bigger


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  • #22
    MadelineX
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭MadelineX


    Only you can decide on your budget. Asking how much others spend is like how long is a piece of string. But honestly beautiful rings can be got whatever the budget.

    Once you have fixed a limit then you can begin looking. I see that your gf likes rose gold. So just hit the shops looking at rose gold rings.

    You can then make decisions to bring a ring inline with your budget. For instance 14k gold is cheaper than 18k. Perhaps an oval diamond would give more presence than a round diamond allowing you to get a lower carat size. Also you may decide a diamond is too expensive. An other alternative could be peachy/pink sapphire which goes very well with rose gold.

    Once you have a general idea of her ring size, maybe from another ring, most stores would resize for free if it's not a perfect fit.

    Also as to the insurance issue, most valuations tend to be for more than the ring cost anyway so you can just tell her you insured it for a general figure.

    Good luck and hope she says yes!!


  • #23
    Voltaire Diamonds: Seamus
    Company Representative Posts: 80 Verified rep ✭Voltaire Diamonds: Seamus


    Many thanks for the mention Sebastian Dangerfield.

    We always advise clients to spend what they can afford.

    If you are available to meet derferjam, we would be delighted to show you our collection. All our rings can be made to specific budgets, stone sizes etc.

    Please have a look at our Youtube channel where you will see 100's of styles we have made for our customers:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/VoltaireDiamonds/videos?shelf_id=1&sort=dd&view=0

    Many thanks
    Séamus


  • #24
    Dangel4x4
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 255 ✭✭Dangel4x4


    Voltaire Diamonds: Seamus wrote: »
    Many thanks for the mention Sebastian Dangerfield.

    We always advise clients to spend what they can afford.

    If you are available to meet derferjam, we would be delighted to show you our collection. All our rings can be made to specific budgets, stone sizes etc.

    Please have a look at our Youtube channel where you will see 100's of styles we have made for our customers:

    https://www.youtube.com/user/VoltaireDiamonds/videos?shelf_id=1&sort=dd&view=0

    Many thanks
    Séamus

    Way to get some free advertising! Bravo!


  • #25
    Zelda Wrong Harp
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zelda Wrong Harp


    MadelineX wrote: »
    An other alternative could be peachy/pink sapphire which goes very well with rose gold.

    That looks like a lovely idea


  • #26
    Inspector Coptoor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,818 ✭✭✭Inspector Coptoor


    I spent a month's gross salary.

    Three months would have been a ridicule amount to spend on a piece of pressurized carbon


  • #27
    homemadecider
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,858 ✭✭✭homemadecider


    My fiance and I split the cost. I got a diamond ring, he got a very fancy watch. We spent 4k in total; 2k each.


  • #28
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,393 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    You need to be very very careful. If you are going to spend a lot of money, then you need to be absolutely 100% certain she will love it! You will expect her to wear it for the rest of her life, after all.

    What some people do is buy a "token" ring to propose with and then go out and buy the real deal.

    I have a very plain, very simple ring. My hands are quite small so anything even slightly big looked ridiculous on me. I have a tiny solitaire ring, that cost £400 in 2001. I tried on a few of all shapes and sizes before finding the one that I loved. And they ranged in price from over £1000 to the one I eventually picked. My husband wouldn't have had a clue what to get me.

    In saying that I probably would have been thrilled with anything he gave me!!! But it was nice to be able to go out together and pick one.


  • #29
    sonandheir
    Registered Users Posts: 235 ✭✭sonandheir


    Definitely go for the token ring to propose with. I had a deposit on a ring and was all prepped to propose with it when by chance we were walking by another jewellers and started chatting about rings and lo and behold she said she hated the style I had picked out.

    We picked it together and now 7 years later she still loves it, and gets compliments on the style of ring. Not sure where you're based but we got ours in Galway in a shop that makes up the rings, so you pick ring style, metal, diamond (carats) etc. Was great value for a custom ring.

    Another way to save a few bob is get your fingers measured for wedding bands when getting engagment ring then using size buy online. Great deals online, can save 50% over shop.


  • #30
    Princess Peach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,698 ✭✭✭✭Princess Peach


    I was proposed to with the stone for my ring. He knew I wanted a ruby but was unsure of the setting and my ring size. So it was a surprise proposal with the ruby in a box surrounded by small diamonds that all went in the ring, along with a couple of renders from the custom ring designer that I might pick, or I could choose something totally different.

    Picked one of the original designs but I was glad to have chosen it, just to be sure I loved it. And it was a perfect fit :)


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  • #31
    xzanti
    Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 10,440 Mod ✭✭✭✭xzanti


    There are often very good deals to be gotten if you look around.. I've often seen beautiful rings marked half price in the likes of Ernest Jones and Fields.

    I'd echo what someone else said about a nice token ring.. and then let her pick her real ring herself.. that's what we did and I picked a ring that he said he would never have picked in a million years but I love it.. and it didn't cost the Earth either.

    Each to their own though I guess.


  • #32
    lulu1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,815 ✭✭✭lulu1


    derferjam wrote: »
    i have been talking to a female friend and she said anything from 3000 and 5000 surely this is a bit much i only earn 25000 a year

    You would be mad to pay that much for a ring If I had a ring at that price I would be afraid to wear it


  • #33
    PLL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 893 ✭✭✭PLL


    €2,000 and below too little. In my opinion it depends how rich you are in regards to too much. Lets say for arguments sake, say we won the lotto, I personally would still think anything above €10,000 is a bit showy. That is my taste, I know friends of friends who have €20,000 rings. Some can afford them, some are in debt and it is to keep up appearances.


  • #34
    Tarzana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,062 ✭✭✭Tarzana


    mozattack wrote: »
    Answer:

    Poor people will say, "not much, it is the thought that counts"

    Well off people will quote some obscene price and an "interesting" story on how long it took to find the "perfect ring"

    Snooze

    I wonder what charmless people would say if they were asked?


  • #35
    fermanagh_man
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭fermanagh_man


    I recently bought an engagement ring in NYC for $4,200 brought it back to Dublin and had it valued by an expert who valued it @ €13,000

    Was then shown the rings I could have got for $4,200 in Ireland absolutely nothing in comparison


  • #36
    plasteritup
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 477 ✭✭plasteritup


    fermanagh_man wrote: »
    I recently bought an engagement ring in NYC for $4,200 brought it back to Dublin and had it valued by an expert who valued it @ €13,000

    Was then shown the rings I could have got for $4,200 in Ireland absolutely nothing in comparison

    Could you sell it today for that price?


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  • #37
    fermanagh_man
    Registered Users Posts: 810 ✭✭✭fermanagh_man


    plasteritup wrote: »
    Could you sell it today for that price?

    No,
    I was told by the valuer that if he was selling an engagenent ring that a jewlers would be the last place he'd go

    Also the Irish would rarely by second hand engagenent rings

    I'd not sell it anyway and it was never the plan to sell it

    I'm just happy I've got value for money

    But I did visit Loyes on Baggot Street and was told I was lucky I got a good quality ring as there are some real horror stories about buying rings abroad


  • #38
    F7Z
    Closed Accounts Posts: 32 ✭F7Z


    Make sure its solid gold for that resell value


  • #39
    lazeedaisy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,337 ✭✭✭lazeedaisy


    fermanagh_man wrote: »
    I recently bought an engagement ring in NYC for $4,200 brought it back to Dublin and had it valued by an expert who valued it @ €13,000

    Was then shown the rings I could have got for $4,200 in Ireland absolutely nothing in comparison

    But you have to pay duty on that and that where they get you. Remember all those years ago posh and becks came back from USA engaged, the customs nabbed them on the duty, as they never realised it had to be paid.

    I have a few sisters who were engaged several times, one in particular used to fling the ring back on a regular basis, and this made me realise there is a much bigger commitment than a ring and put me off. I told himself that I never wanted one, mind you we just went ahead and only gave everyone 2 weeks notice for the wedding. I made sure to buy what I wanted in a wedding ring though.

    It used to be 3 months wages, that guided people in buying a ring. But as you can see here its not about the cost, just make sure the proposal is unforgettable for her as she wil be retelling it for a long time,

    Good luck, go with your instinct,


  • #40
    tiny_penguin
    Registered Users Posts: 1,090 ✭✭✭tiny_penguin


    If my boyfriend proposed and I found out that he had spent anywhere near 2 or 3 months salary on a ring I would seriously consider whether or not we should get married as we clearly have very different financial priorities. Whether or not we could afford it (and if we could that would indicate a high monthly salary so probable be huge amount of money).

    We had the discussion recently where I told him I would hate a really expensive ring as I wouldn't feel comfortable wearing it. Around €500 would be more than enough. He was a little shocked as assumed it was a bad reflection on him to spend so little and he had considered spending €100 or €200 on the token proposal right. After having a proper discussion about it he realised that the concern was more with what other people would think and that our future financial stability (money for a house and savings for our future) is more important than spending money on a ring. As long as we both love it and it lasts a lifetime thats all I want.

    Though in saying that all just me. I think all this mention of how many months salary is crazy, you should spend what you can afford and what you and your partner is comfortable with. Who cares what anyone else thinks!


  • #41
    Millem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    OP would you consider moissanite? http://www.moissanite.co.uk It is a stone in itself but looks very similar to a diamond. There is a lifetime guarantee. This guy Steve is amazing. He can make you a ring. I really considered it as I my hands take a fair big of bashing in work especially with fairy liquid and cleaning products. There is a thread a few years ago http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056757191 where myself and another poster put up info and prices on it.


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  • #42
    Star Lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    I dislike the idea of a 'token' ring. Why not just spend that extra money on the ring itself instead?

    I went down the custom ring route, you can get something that's unique, exactly what you want, better quality than mass-produced rings, and better value for money too.

    If you do consider that, drop me a PM and I can pass you on the details of the guy that made the ring for us, should you wish to check him out.


  • #43
    tbeans
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭tbeans


    Spend what you feel comfortable with but I would recommend you research and shop around!!

    Having to spend a month's salary or similar is a very old fashioned way of looking at this.

    We found that lots of smaller diamonds are cheaper than one large one so maybe take a look at a halo style for example.


  • #44
    Big Bag of Chips
    Administrators Posts: 14,393 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Big Bag of Chips


    DamoElDiablo wrote: »
    I dislike the idea of a 'token' ring. Why not just spend that extra money on the ring itself instead?

    I'm talking about a bit of costume jewellery that can be bought in Dunnes for a tenner!!!

    It is a big investment, no matter how much you pay for it. Even say a "cheap" ring would still be around €300. I wouldn't go out and spend that much money on any gift for my husband without being guaranteed he wanted it, loved it, and wanted it above any other gift. Surprise proposals with the perfect ring are a lovely idea. But I think these days a girl would like the chance to have a look and a say in what she is going to have on her finger for ever more (presumably!)


  • #45
    Zelda Wrong Harp
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Zelda Wrong Harp


    DamoElDiablo wrote: »
    I dislike the idea of a 'token' ring. Why not just spend that extra money on the ring itself instead?

    I always assumed they meant something for a tenner, not "extra money".

    Do people actually spent 100+ on the proposal ring ???
    That's all mental


  • #46
    Dolbert
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,154 ✭✭✭Dolbert


    PLL wrote: »
    €2,000 and below too little.

    Says who? I've never been much into jewellery and €2k of a ring would have been wasted on me. To this day my engagement/wedding rings are the only jewellery I wear.

    We got the engagement ring from Thomas Gear and custom made wedding rings from Martin Gear, highly recommended.


  • #47
    Star Lord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,123 ✭✭✭✭Star Lord


    Big Bag of Chips wrote: »
    I'm talking about a bit of costume jewellery that can be bought in Dunnes for a tenner!!!
    bluewolf wrote: »
    I always assumed they meant something for a tenner, not "extra money".

    Do people actually spent 100+ on the proposal ring ???
    That's all mental

    I have seen people talking about getting ones for €100-200, as a temporary ring until they get the proper one... which is absolute insanity.


  • #48
    Millem
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,729 ✭✭✭Millem


    DamoElDiablo wrote: »
    I have seen people talking about getting ones for €100-200, as a temporary ring until they get the proper one... which is absolute insanity.

    I know someone who got one from ebay for less than €5. It came from China but was grand till they picked out the actual ring!
    http://www.ebay.ie/sch/Rings-/67681/i.html?_from=R40&_sop=15&_nkw=engagement+ring&rt=nc&LH_BIN=1


  • #49
    jonnyfingers
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,333 ✭✭✭jonnyfingers


    DamoElDiablo wrote: »
    I have seen people talking about getting ones for €100-200, as a temporary ring until they get the proper one... which is absolute insanity.

    It doesn't have to be a temporary ring, it could also be a genuine gift that will have some sentimental value and she may wish to wear for a long time. Personally I bought my OH an emerald ring as the token engagement ring as she has always wanted one. It wasn't cheap but it wasn't overly expensive either and if anything she loves it just as much as the engagement ring itself which is 8 times as expensive. She now wears both rings permanently.

    With that being said I proposed in Lanzarote and she asked if I had bought the ring in one of the cheap souvenir shops by the beach! I had to point out that it actually was slightly more valuable than that! :D

    Now you might think if she wears both rings all the time why not treat the emerald ring as the engagement ring? Quite simply it's not as durable as the diamond engagement ring, white gold vs platinum, and she wanted a traditional diamond engagement ring. Also it was never meant to be an engagement ring, just a nice emerald ring that she can wear when she wants to.

    So a token ring to me is just something you can use for the proposal in lieu of the "real thing". It can be as cheap or as expensive as you like it to be.


  • #50
    RHN_Ireland
    Registered Users Posts: 7 ✭RHN_Ireland


    My (now) husband and I picked out the ring together and I ended up picking out a ring that was far less than the budget because it suited my taste more than other more expensive rings.

    I do think it's lovely to be able to pick your ring together and I too got a promise ring. Chosing my ring together was a really special experience and I am glad I got to be involved in the process.

    In terms of budget spend what you can and what you can justify. We could have afforded spending more on the ring but there were other things we wanted to spend our money on.


  • #51
    marie12
    Closed Accounts Posts: 133 ✭✭marie12


    There's a lovely ring in swarovski at the moment 50eu. It's just as nice as others I've seen. Who really cares about real gold, stones, etc ? Is it that important at the end of the day?


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