Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

Sam Russell · 17-04-2018 12:37pm

CatInABox wrote: »

The whole project looks like an exercise in risk reduction, from the limiting of CPO requirements, to the the simplified stations, out to the station construction (all to be dug straight down instead of being dug out.), it all screams to me that they've sat down and thought long and hard about what's important in this project.

Still impressed with it all, to be honest.

So am I.

Maybe the consultation is out to judge the level of objections to the project. When I was looking around, there was a large group of 'unhappy' people taking issue with the Beechwood and Cowper stops design and the implications it would have on cyclists, particularly juvenile cyclists. This would have implications for (non) provision of ramps for cyclists and like problems.

At the end of the consultations, they may well sharpen their pencils and address most of the problems - one way or another. Let us hope they do not use the erasure on the other end of the pencil to the detriment of the overall project.

BonnieSituation · 17-04-2018 1:43pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

So am I.

Maybe the consultation is out to judge the level of objections to the project. When I was looking around, there was a large group of 'unhappy' people taking issue with the Beechwood and Cowper stops design and the implications it would have on cyclists, particularly juvenile cyclists. This would have implications for (non) provision of ramps for cyclists and like problems.

At the end of the consultations, they may well sharpen their pencils and address most of the problems - one way or another. Let us hope they do not use the erasure on the other end of the pencil to the detriment of the overall project.

As some other have said here, Cowper and Beechwood seemed to be the busier of the stands when I was there.

Keeping access at Dunville Avenue seems to be the big issue. Dropping the road and creating an underpass seems to be the current notion.

Got more clarity about Charlemont and how that will tie in too; it will just end up like Tallaght or the Point is now. That was a personal albatross that just couldn't work out.

I brought up the potential moving of the Na Fianna station and they said it could happen that was until I mentioned the knock on effects it would have at Collins' Ave etc. So there's definite gaps in knowledge there. HA HA!

They're all in on Whitworth. Obviously they should be. But this seems different.

All in all I got a certain vibe that NIMBYism isn't going to be allowed derail the whole project for one or 2 small things. Which is distinctly un-Irish.

Sam Russell · 17-04-2018 1:55pm

I think this type of video presentation should be produced to showcase the project, particularly the building phase.

I think it would create a positive vibe towards it, particularly if it included the Dart expansion element.

Brian CivilEng · 17-04-2018 2:04pm

LXFlyer wrote: »

To be fair I appreciate that, but one particular guy really was clueless and started going on complete tangents and wasn’t answering the questions he was being asked, until when asked did he actually know the answer, he admitted he didn’t.

He was wasting people’s time, rather than directing them to someone who did know the answers, of which there were several.

Knew absolutely nothing but could talk about it for hours, he must have been upper management.

bk · 17-04-2018 2:13pm

specialbyte, great write up, answers a lot of questions and great insights into the thought process that is going into the project, which can often be as important as the details.

specialbyte wrote: »

They don't really want to limit the new metro system or the new vehicles because of the current green line design. I was kinda surprised to hear this considering most of the documentation tries to underline how simple the green line upgrade will be. If that's true then those of you dreaming for a super high capacity system with HFV and platform screen doors you might be in luck.

I'm absolutely delighted to hear this. From reading the docs, I was a little worried that they were leaning towards the cheapest and easiest solution due to the tie in with the Luas, which would result in an inferior Metro overall. So I'm happy to hear that they are prioritising a high quality Metro over the Green line tie-in.

specialbyte wrote: »

I asked about the Cross Guns/Glasnevin station. He said it isn't clear who will actually build the new Irish Rail station. Will it be TII or Irish Rail? He suspects that they will do it because the Irish Rail tie-in there is a large part of their business case. So it is likely the planning application for Metrolink will include the Irish Rail station and that some magic pot of NTA money will be used to pay for it to keep it off the MetroLink budget.

Yes, the whole reason they are going for this route over the original route via Drumcondra is because of Whitworth Road. Without it, it would likely make more sense to go with the original route, so they really need to make the whole station happen.

specialbyte wrote: »

We also got talking about the depot location. There is an alternate proposal to locate the depot at the Dardistown stop. This would also mean they can relocate the TBM launching site from the Na Fianna grounds to Northwoords. Ironically though the Dardistown depot would be built on the Na Finana Grounds on the old airport road. So there's no winning really.

LOL, though depending on how many playing fields they would be taking, then I suspect Na Fianna would still prefer that location over Mobhi Road.

specialbyte wrote: »

The final thing we talked about very informally was about how they made some of the choices. There was a strong bias internally within TII to pick whatever option required the least amount of permanent CPO or would cause the least number of objections. He mentioned this is why the Collins Avenue stop is a few hundred meters away from the orbital bus routes on Collins Avenue. Doing this they could avoid CPO'ing 9 houses and build on open land in front of the church there. It's not ideal or what they wanted but it avoids CPO'ing. This was also a large part of why they went for option 4A of the green line tie-in and not 4B. Option 4B doesn't close the Luas line for a whole year like Option 4A and it retains an engineering link between all of the luas/metro lines. However, Option 4B required CPO'ing something like 20 houses, whereas 4A only CPO's 4 houses completely (AFAIR). They are very worried generally about getting caught up in tons of objections and maybe even in the High Court. The fear of objections has been a deciding factor in many of the decisions they have taken up to this point. Bluntly, they want to piss off as few people as possible to get the project over the line. He did mention that the interchange points at Cross Guns and at Tara Station this bias towards avoiding CPOs was relaxed. Their business case is tied to strong interconnection with the heavy rail network and the shorter they can make the interconnection the better the business case. A stronger business case made it more likely to get government approval over other transport projects (looking at you Dart Underground) and will make it easier for the Dept of Finance to approve the project. For this reason they were allowed by management to do more CPO'ing in those areas designs.

I would agree it is very obvious from the planning docs that they have tried to fit in the station boxes where it would cause the least disruption.

I wish they didn't have to do this, but in fairness it reflects the reality of Irish planning system, courts, politics and perhaps most importantly social culture. So I think they are smart to do this, for such an important and expensive project. It is more important to get this done and prove the concept of Metros and then perhaps future lines will be easier and can involve more CPO'ing etc.

specialbyte wrote: »

I hope some of you find some of this information helpful.

Incredibly helpful, thank you,

CatInABox wrote: »

The whole project looks like an exercise in risk reduction, from the limiting of CPO requirements, to the the simplified stations, out to the station construction (all to be dug straight down instead of being dug out.), it all screams to me that they've sat down and thought long and hard about what's important in this project.

Still impressed with it all, to be honest.

Yes and I'm very happy to hear it. Getting this done is much more important then getting it perfect.

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Just to play devil's advocate here for a minute as I am an engineer and I would class myself as competent, but I completely fall down when asked a question slightly different to what I had expected. Give me 30mins and allow me to write down my thoughts and it's a completely different story. A lot of engineers are quite introverted, and sometimes talking to people is so exhausting it's easier to just let them think you a fool. Heaven knows it has held my career back, but it's something I've noticed in colleagues too. So generally the people who do stand up at public consultations aren't the experts, they are the people who don't mind talking to other people. The experts were back in the office crunching the numbers.

I don't know if that is the case here, and I do know plenty of engineers who can talk the talk as well as walk the walk, but please don't put down to apathy or incompetence what can be attributed to personality.

From my experience it is the same in the software world. Send me an email and I'll give you an excellent, well thought out and detailed response/solution. Throw an unexpected question my way in the middle of a meeting and there will be a lot of errs... and ahhhs... and I'll get back to you on it.

Different peoples minds work in different ways and people who are detail oriented tend to having difficulty throwing out quick answers off the cuff when under pressure. A good work environment is one where managers understand these sort of differences in people and works with them, rather then trying to catch them out, etc.

bk · 17-04-2018 2:16pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I think this type of video presentation should be produced to showcase the project, particularly the building phase.

I think it would create a positive vibe towards it, particularly if it included the Dart expansion element.

I wonder if something like that was produced or they were planning to produce something like that, but it got canned after all the controversy around the NDP videos and advertising that blew up just a few months earlier.

A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't

Sam Russell · 17-04-2018 2:39pm

bk wrote: »

I wonder if something like that was produced or they were planning to produce something like that, but it got canned after all the controversy around the NDP videos and advertising that blew up just a few months earlier.

A case of damned if you do and damned if you don't

That is a bit like the argument re Quangos. They are bad, so we'll get rid of them. But we need someone to look after problem .... so we must set up an outfit to over see it - say the Private Tenancy Board, or the Low Pay Commission, or whatever - oops - we have just created a whole load of Quangos when we were trying to get rid of them.

If you want buy in to a project like Metrolink, then it is necessary to promote properly and the best way to do that is with a professional video presentation, followed by professional promotion.

Otherwise, it generates reactions like Na Fianna or Beechwood are generating, with no-one out there countering McCarthy and his negativity.

LXFlyer · 17-04-2018 2:56pm

abitofacomedian wrote: »

Knew absolutely nothing but could talk about it for hours, he must have been upper management.

Nope. He was a younger guy.

Dats me · 17-04-2018 3:22pm

I went to the City Council consultation and was actually approached by an engineer who had an answer to every question and was generous with his answers.

Unfortunate that they've trotted out wafflers, but it's likely that they would be of high enough standard for a lot of the public. From the studies online and my experience during the consultation, I think the calibre of people doing the nitty gritty of the Metro is extremely high.

citizen6 · 17-04-2018 4:55pm

The TII guy I spoke to said there's nothing stopping an upgrade of Sandyford-Bride's Glen to Metro in future. It would depend on passenger numbers (and presumably funding).

He also said that if they go elevated over M50 with the depot at Dardistown (Option

, there will be a P+R there. I asked why the M50/depot decision affects the P+R decision and he wasn't clear on that. Maybe the road access would be different - they would need staff access to the depot anyway so probably makes sense to do a P+R beside the staff car park.

Overheard another rep saying something to the effect that the public consultation is to highlight all the problems, and that every problem will be addressed in some fashion in the planning submission - otherwise they risk it being rejected.

specialbyte · 17-04-2018 10:20pm

specialbyte wrote: »

We also got talking about the depot location. There is an alternate proposal to locate the depot at the Dardistown stop. This would also mean they can relocate the TBM launching site from the Na Fianna grounds to Northwoords. Ironically though the Dardistown depot would be built on the Na Fianna Grounds on the old airport road. So there's no winning really.

bk wrote: »

LOL, though depending on how many playing fields they would be taking, then I suspect Na Fianna would still prefer that location over Mobhi Road.

Well in theory they only have an "indicative" location for the depot at Dardistown so who knows if they will need Na Fianna Grounds up there. The other thing to bear in mind is that the the land take for the Mobhi Road grounds is temporary. Six years isn't short but it isn't forever either. If they do choose the current indicative location for the depot at Dardistown they'd CPO the Na Fianna Grounds up there permanently.

Even with the Dardistown depot I don't see TII relocating the station at Griffith Park on the Mobhi Road grounds. The proposed station location doesn't require CPO'ing houses (big plus) and it's in just about the right spot 1KM away from Glasnevin. With the Dardistown Depot, Na Fianna would still some of lose their main grounds temporarily for 2/3 years for the station construction. The TBM launch site would then be at Northwoods. So TII probably need to temporarily CPO far less land at Mobhi Road. The construction site can probably be way smaller if it's just a station box and not a TBM launch site. It would probably only impact the main pitch and not the all weather pitches beside the club house.

So from Na Fianna's point of view, you could make an argument that losing their main grounds for 6 years is better than permanently losing their pitches up near Dardistown/Collinstown permanently and losing their main pitch for 2/3 years. That's definitely taking a long term view.

Given all of the knock-on consequences it'll be interesting to see what option Na Fianna decide to lobby for in the end. Hopefully someone in TII is explaining the options/consequences of decisions to them so they can make the right decision for their clubs needs.

LongboardPro · 20-04-2018 7:47am

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

tobsey · 20-04-2018 9:25am

specialbyte wrote: »

So from Na Fianna's point of view, you could make an argument that losing their main grounds for 6 years is better than permanently losing their pitches up near Dardistown/Collinstown permanently and losing their main pitch for 2/3 years. That's definitely taking a long term view

You're completely missing the issue that Na Fianna have. They'd give up the Dardistown pitches in a heartbeat so long as the CPO allowed them to get something similar. The issue they have is losing the club grounds and effectively the clubhouse. Hundreds of kids are in Mobhi Road every weekend. They also run their mini-leagues over the summer there for I think 5-10 year olds. That is their main sporting activity and brings new members to the club who go up through the ages. They haven't a hope of getting those kids up to Dardistown at 10am on a Saturday morning. The club would lose a massive proportion of primary school kids that usually become members. That would be extremely difficult to recover from.

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

CreativeSen · 20-04-2018 9:27am

LongboardPro wrote: »

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

In my view it would be nice if there was a branding exercise done on the whole public transport infrastructure in Dublin.

jd · 20-04-2018 9:40am

tobsey wrote: »

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

If the TBM is launched at Northwood, I wouldn't be surprised if the station box is at the Home Farm pitch. Na Fianna main pitch would stay open, and Home Farm would get a nice sweetener with perhaps some all-weather pitches when station construction is finished.

roadmaster · 20-04-2018 10:20am

jd wrote: »

If the TBM is launched at Northwood, I wouldn't be surprised if the station box is at the Home Farm pitch. Na Fianna main pitch would stay open, and Home Farm would get a nice sweetener with perhaps some all-weather pitches when station construction is finished.

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

jd · 20-04-2018 10:31am

roadmaster wrote: »

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

Mobhi Road isn't the main pitch. Home Farm statement is here

specialbyte · 20-04-2018 1:26pm

tobsey wrote: »

You're completely missing the issue that Na Fianna have. They'd give up the Dardistown pitches in a heartbeat so long as the CPO allowed them to get something similar. The issue they have is losing the club grounds and effectively the clubhouse. Hundreds of kids are in Mobhi Road every weekend. They also run their mini-leagues over the summer there for I think 5-10 year olds. That is their main sporting activity and brings new members to the club who go up through the ages. They haven't a hope of getting those kids up to Dardistown at 10am on a Saturday morning. The club would lose a massive proportion of primary school kids that usually become members. That would be extremely difficult to recover from.

If the lost some or all of the main pitch for three years but kept the use of the rest of the grounds they could take that I'd say.

I think I've been misunderstood. My post was more to highlight how different engineering and design decisions would have substantially different impacts on Na Fianna. I don't know the club well enough to say what would be best for them. Only they can figure out what's best for them. There's also many factors we don't know yet or that haven't been decided. How large would a compensation agreement for Na Fianna be under every circumstance? Can alternate playing grounds be found nearby during the construction phase?

I completely understand Na Fianna's fear that they will lose a generation of players. The effects could be devastating for their club. I was involved with a Scout group where through bad management/organisation we shrunk the size of our younger age groups (beavers and cubs 6-10 year olds). The knock on effects were huge. Without any kids coming up through beavers and cubs we very quickly also had no scouts and ventures (11-18 year olds). Scouts are the core demographic and ventures were our largest source of young leaders. The whole situation almost lead to the complete collapse our Scout group. It took us about 7 years of really hard work to fully recover as a group.

I can see many choices for Na Fianna. I can't make any of them nor would I argue for any of them. It's the big reason I ended my post with:

specialbyte wrote: »

Given all of the knock-on consequences it'll be interesting to see what option Na Fianna decide to lobby for in the end. Hopefully someone in TII is explaining the options/consequences of decisions to them so they can make the right decision for their clubs needs.

Zebra3 · 20-04-2018 3:59pm

roadmaster wrote: »

They could do a deal with DCC instead of Tolka Park getting housing/apartments or what ever is planned for it when shells move to dalymount they could let Homefarm use it as there main pitch until the metro is built

Shels won’t be moving from Tolka Park in the foreseeable future.

There is currently no plan on the table for Dalymount, no PP application nor is there any funding for any redevelopment.

And before it is redeveloped (if it actually happens), the plan is for Dalymount to be completely demolished which will entail Bohs playing in Tolka Park too for that period.

roadmaster · 20-04-2018 5:04pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

Shels won’t be moving from Tolka Park in the foreseeable future.

There is currently no plan on the table for Dalymount, no PP application nor is there any funding for any redevelopment.

And before it is redeveloped (if it actually happens), the plan is for Dalymount to be completely demolished which will entail Bohs playing in Tolka Park too for that period.

So is the whole dalymount development more a pipedream then a reality ?

Stephen15 · 20-04-2018 5:17pm

LongboardPro wrote: »

Since the thread has died, what do you guys think of the current Metrolink logo? I was hoping that it wouldn't comprise of a letter M as that seems what most metro systems default to using. It doesn't seem that creative.

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

Middle Man · 20-04-2018 6:19pm

Indeed, just a nice clean simple M sign - call a spade a spade and cut the nonsense!

Sam Russell · 20-04-2018 6:21pm

Let us hope there reserve their creativity to just building the line - now if not sooner.

Perhaps they could be creative and build the Swords to Airport bit first - or at least aim to open it first.

Middle Man · 20-04-2018 6:33pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Let us hope there reserve their creativity to just building the line - now if not sooner.

Perhaps they could be creative and build the Swords to Airport bit first - or at least aim to open it first.

MetroLink lock stock and barrel by the 2020s!!! No more compromises - this country is a serious joke and people the world over are starting to realise that.

Zebra3 · 20-04-2018 7:06pm

roadmaster wrote: »

So is the whole dalymount development more a pipedream then a reality ?

From the info in the public domain, I’d say yes.

LongboardPro · 20-04-2018 7:17pm

CreativeSen wrote: »

In my view it would be nice if there was a branding exercise done on the whole public transport infrastructure in Dublin.

I actually came up with some designs myself for each transport mode. Might post them later.

LongboardPro · 20-04-2018 7:21pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

Yeah, I don't like the Metrolink name either. I'd prefer just [Dublin] Metro. Metrolink sounds as if there will only be one line ever built as well.

BonnieSituation · 20-04-2018 7:28pm

Stephen15 wrote: »

No visability and recognizability need to come before creativity. A big M is almost universally recognised worldwide as a symbol for a Metro or Subway system and most tourists would recognise it from a distance. It would instanstantly recognisable when lit up at night. Metro is a nice simple clean name rather than something more creative which would probably be longer and more convoluted.

I also dont like the Metrolink branding as I think Metro rolls off the tongue quicker and is more recognisable than Metrolink there's something a little bit American sounding about Metrolink. Also Metrolink could be confused with the Manchester Metrolink which is in fact a tram system.

How will it be confused with a tram system on a different city, in a different country, on a different island?

I wonder do Translink in Vancouver get confused with Translink in the North?

Sam Russell · 20-04-2018 7:47pm

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

marno21 · 20-04-2018 8:14pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

Fingal Area Rapid Transit?

Maybe that joke was done in the previous incarnations of the Metro.

bk · 20-04-2018 8:15pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

What is wrong with DART - Dublin Area Rapid Transit - after all that is what it is.

With the Dart expansion, why have another confusion. Maybe - Dart Metro - or even Metro Dart. And Luas Dart or Dart Luas.

Maybe not.

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I really liked Dublin Metro, but I understand they were probably afraid it would get the backs up of the rest of the country. Maybe just Metro.

piuswal · 21-04-2018 12:53am

specialbyte wrote: »

I think I've been misunderstood. My post was more to highlight how different engineering and design decisions would have substantially different impacts on Na Fianna. I don't know the club well enough to say what would be best for them. Only they can figure out what's best for them. There's also many factors we don't know yet or that haven't been decided. How large would a compensation agreement for Na Fianna be under every circumstance? Can alternate playing grounds be found nearby during the construction phase?

I completely understand Na Fianna's fear that they will lose a generation of players. The effects could be devastating for their club. I was involved with a Scout group where through bad management/organisation we shrunk the size of our younger age groups (beavers and cubs 6-10 year olds). The knock on effects were huge. Without any kids coming up through beavers and cubs we very quickly also had no scouts and ventures (11-18 year olds). Scouts are the core demographic and ventures were our largest source of young leaders. The whole situation almost lead to the complete collapse our Scout group. It took us about 7 years of really hard work to fully recover as a group.

I can see many choices for Na Fianna. I can't make any of them nor would I argue for any of them. It's the big reason I ended my post with:

Are people aware that there are two schools which are directly accessed through both ends of Na Fianna's main ground? Scoil Chaitriona Secondary School behind Na Fianna's clubhoues and Scoil Mobhi Primary School directly south of the clubhouse, and Whitehall College of Further Education.

See Griffith Park Station on

http://www.metrolink.ie/#/map

Why not go to the east of WCFE and use the space to the east of Scoil Mobhi with building access through Griffith Park itself. They would lose part of their playing pitch for a while but probably preferable than the present option. It would also shorten the exit route for traffic from the building site which must turn left.

Ernest · 21-04-2018 8:28am

bk wrote: »

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I really liked Dublin Metro, but I understand they were probably afraid it would get the backs up of the rest of the country. Maybe just Metro.

I really must disagree with that throwaway remark: DART has an excellent reputation as a transport system - especially among those who are in the fortunate position to be able to use it.
It is fast, comfortable, reliable, easy to use and safe and - unlike the trams - does not cause city centre traffic chaos.

What's not to like!

CatInABox · 21-04-2018 8:34am

piuswal wrote: »

Why not go to the east of WCFE and use the space to the east of Scoil Mobhi with building access through Griffith Park itself. They would lose part of their playing pitch for a while but probably preferable than the present option. It would also shorten the exit route for traffic from the building site which must turn left.

Cost, presumably. The metro follows the route of the road, as that allows it to be dug a lot shallower. Moving the station east, away from the road will mean tunneling under a lot more buildings, which means they'll have to go deeper, adding cost and complexity.

Brian CivilEng · 21-04-2018 9:50am

bk wrote: »

DART doesn't have the greatest reputation with the public.

I beg to differ, not sure where you got that from. I live where I live because of the DART. The only criticism I have of it is that is gets very congested at peak hours.

specialbyte · 21-04-2018 10:27am

Ernest wrote: »

I really must disagree with that throwaway remark: DART has an excellent reputation as a transport system - especially among those who are in the fortunate position to be able to use it.
It is fast, comfortable, reliable, easy to use and safe and - unlike the trams - does not cause city centre traffic chaos.

What's not to like!

To be fair to bk I'm assume they are referring to NTA survey on passenger satisfaction that was released in February this year. In that survey of passengers DART passengers were the less satisfied passengers. I think with some simple changes IE could greatly improve their level of service. Though I suspect they need some serious infrastructure improvements to get it service where everyone wants it. (I assume those changes will be coming as part of the DART expansion programme.)

Article on the survey: http://www.thejournal.ie/dart-passengers-commuters-survey-3848499-Feb2018/

piuswal · 22-04-2018 1:49am

CatInABox wrote: »

Cost, presumably. The metro follows the route of the road, as that allows it to be dug a lot shallower. Moving the station east, away from the road will mean tunneling under a lot more buildings, which means they'll have to go deeper, adding cost and complexity.

Yes, I can see that point but having a bore hole at Na Fianna will mean a very difficult environment, noise and particle pollution for hundreds of school children

Noise is going to be a major issue - seemingly some study associated with Frankfurt Airport is an example of the deleterious effect of constant noise pollution on school children - must try and find it.

I must say naming it Griffith Park is misleading to many, even those who know the area thought it was referring to the nearby park on the Tolka, which I already referred to as a possible option.

Another issue that seems to have arise is a claim that houses on Prospect Avenue are simply built on clay!! No proper foundations!

One can see the reasons for Mater (hospital) , Glasnevin (connect to railway lines and there is a lot of space there) and Collins Ave (DCU) stations but Griffith Park aka Na Fianna is simply a filler meet a distance between stops requirement,yet is likely to cause the greatest disruption to the greatest number of people and groups and organisations.

From Glasnevin why not go NW in line with the Finglas Rd then head north under GlasnevinCemetery and the Botanic Gardens crossing the Old Finglas Rd in line with the Ballymun Rd just west of Met Eireann and you are under road all the way to the Collins Ave station?

There seems to be plenty of open space north of the Tolka just after the Botanic Gardens between the Tolka House and the Mary Alyward Centre. The two St Mary's schools are quite a distance away whereas you have 3 schools (I forgot a play school in Na Fianna) within metres of the current propose site.

specialbyte · 22-04-2018 1:03pm

For those of you who like thinking in crayon about the station locations it's quite interesting to use an isochrone tools like open route services to see how station location affects potential catchment size. Using this tool you can tell you how far could you walk from a station location by walking 2 mins, 4 mins, 6 mins etc. given the local road network. It also can give you some population estimates for how many people live within those walking distances. The tool isn't perfect and it struggles with some pedestrian only paths so in some cases it underestimates the distance you could travel. This isochrone tools could also be used by the councils to try and improve pedestrian access to the metro stops by identifying bottlenecks.

For example here's an isochrone from the proposed Griffith Park stop with a walking distance of 14 mins going at a standard 6km/h pace. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/reach?n1=53.380205&n2=-6.256578&n3=15&a=53.375521,-6.264496&b=2&i=0&j1=14&j2=2&l1=1&l4=1&g1=-1&g2=5&d=6&k1=en-US&k2=km

You can see in the alignment choices report that the engineers who designed the metro emerging preferred route used a much more capable and sophisticated tool than this one to figure station catchment sizes.

piuswal · 22-04-2018 10:26pm

specialbyte wrote: »

For those of you who like thinking in crayon about the station locations it's quite interesting to use an isochrone tools like open route services to see how station location affects potential catchment size. Using this tool you can tell you how far could you walk from a station location by walking 2 mins, 4 mins, 6 mins etc. given the local road network. It also can give you some population estimates for how many people live within those walking distances. The tool isn't perfect and it struggles with some pedestrian only paths so in some cases it underestimates the distance you could travel. This isochrone tools could also be used by the councils to try and improve pedestrian access to the metro stops by identifying bottlenecks.

For example here's an isochrone from the proposed Griffith Park stop with a walking distance of 14 mins going at a standard 6km/h pace. https://maps.openrouteservice.org/reach?n1=53.380205&n2=-6.256578&n3=15&a=53.375521,-6.264496&b=2&i=0&j1=14&j2=2&l1=1&l4=1&g1=-1&g2=5&d=6&k1=en-US&k2=km

You can see in the alignment choices report that the engineers who designed the metro emerging preferred route used a much more capable and sophisticated tool than this one to figure station catchment sizes.

Thanks. Are you saying that Na Fianna was chosen because of the catchment?

Of course following a road is a great bonus.

Moving west to a station off Glasnevin Hill or the Old Finglas Road would obviously reduce the numbers within the same walkung time zone but there would be less disruption to houses, as much if not more following current roads and the removal of hundreds of children and schools etc from the environmental hazards of a very very close bore hole.

Which is more important?
+

CatInABox · 23-04-2018 12:03am

piuswal wrote: »

Yes, I can see that point but having a bore hole at Na Fianna will mean a very difficult environment, noise and particle pollution for hundreds of school children

Noise is going to be a major issue - seemingly some study associated with Frankfurt Airport is an example of the deleterious effect of constant noise pollution on school children - must try and find it.

A lot of that could be sorted before hand though, only use trucks with netting covering the load, noise barriers to reduce the sound out, improved windows on the schools, etc. They're issues, but they're relatively easy to mitigate.

piuswal wrote: »

One can see the reasons for Mater (hospital) , Glasnevin (connect to railway lines and there is a lot of space there) and Collins Ave (DCU) stations but Griffith Park aka Na Fianna is simply a filler meet a distance between stops requirement,yet is likely to cause the greatest disruption to the greatest number of people and groups and organisations.

From Glasnevin why not go NW in line with the Finglas Rd then head north under GlasnevinCemetery and the Botanic Gardens crossing the Old Finglas Rd in line with the Ballymun Rd just west of Met Eireann and you are under road all the way to the Collins Ave station?

There seems to be plenty of open space north of the Tolka just after the Botanic Gardens between the Tolka House and the Mary Alyward Centre. The two St Mary's schools are quite a distance away whereas you have 3 schools (I forgot a play school in Na Fianna) within metres of the current propose site.

It's not a filler station. Without it, a large section of North Dublin will have a Metro line going underneath it, with service levels unimaginable for most people right now, and no way of getting on it. It'd be a slap in the face for everyone living in the area.

Highly unlikely that the route will go underneath a cemetery, there'd be far too many objections from quite a lot of diverse groups, from the church, to historians, to most political parties(all wanting to be seen to be protecting the memory of the rising/civil war).

piuswal · 23-04-2018 12:37am

CatInABox wrote: »

A lot of that could be sorted before hand though, only use trucks with netting covering the load, noise barriers to reduce the sound out, improved windows on the schools, etc. They're issues, but they're relatively easy to mitigate.

It's not a filler station. Without it, a large section of North Dublin will have a Metro line going underneath it, with service levels unimaginable for most people right now, and no way of getting on it. It'd be a slap in the face for everyone living in the area.

Highly unlikely that the route will go underneath a cemetery, there'd be far too many objections from quite a lot of diverse groups, from the church, to historians, to most political parties(all wanting to be seen to be protecting the memory of the rising/civil war).

So, a movement c 600mts by foot, to a station off Glasnevin Hill, is not realistic because of dead people as compared to hundreds of children and adults having to put up with high levels of noise, pollution and regular heavy traffic for at least six years?

See https://maps.openrouteservice.org/re...k1=en-US&k2=km from above re catchment area.

The Church, historians and politicians, few if any living anywhere near the area, would prefer to protect the dead?

It would only be passing well under the Cemetery, what effect would it have, say as compared to passing under houses?

At present the area is also used for parking facilities for children being dropped off and picked up from school. It is directly adjacent to a very busy road each morning. I wonder how that aspect alone might be managed.

marno21 · 23-04-2018 12:51am

piuswal wrote: »

Yes, I can see that point but having a bore hole at Na Fianna will mean a very difficult environment, noise and particle pollution for hundreds of school children

No it will not. Measures will be taken to ensure that there is no effect on the outside environment from the Metrolink operations at Mobhi Road.

piuswal wrote: »

Noise is going to be a major issue - seemingly some study associated with Frankfurt Airport is an example of the deleterious effect of constant noise pollution on school children - must try and find it.

Noise will be an issue directly above the access to the underground tunnels, which if the plans remain as is, will be directly above the Na Fianna site at Mobhi Road and will be restricted to a small area around the portal. Comparing a highly controlled tunnelling operation to a major international airport is wrong.

piuswal wrote: »

I must say naming it Griffith Park is misleading to many, even those who know the area thought it was referring to the nearby park on the Tolka, which I already referred to as a possible option.

Station names are not finalised and can be changed as a result of submissions made during the public consultation.

piuswal wrote: »

One can see the reasons for Mater (hospital) , Glasnevin (connect to railway lines and there is a lot of space there) and Collins Ave (DCU) stations but Griffith Park aka Na Fianna is simply a filler meet a distance between stops requirement,yet is likely to cause the greatest disruption to the greatest number of people and groups and organisations.

The station planned at Mobhi Road will be useful for the entire area around the station, including Na Fianna. If a Na Fianna member moves from Glasnevin to Swords they could easily continue to play for Na Fianna.

piuswal wrote: »

From Glasnevin why not go NW in line with the Finglas Rd then head north under GlasnevinCemetery and the Botanic Gardens crossing the Old Finglas Rd in line with the Ballymun Rd just west of Met Eireann and you are under road all the way to the Collins Ave station?

Tunnelling under the R108 makes sense as it avoids tunnelling directly under residential properties and would have less of an impact on the owners.

(Any parts of your post I didn't reply to is because I don't have sufficient local knowledge to comment.)

CatInABox · 23-04-2018 8:46am

piuswal wrote: »

So, a movement c 600mts by foot, to a station off Glasnevin Hill, is not realistic because of dead people as compared to hundreds of children and adults having to put up with high levels of noise, pollution and regular heavy traffic for at least six years?

See https://maps.openrouteservice.org/re...k1=en-US&k2=km from above re catchment area.

The Church, historians and politicians, few if any living anywhere near the area, would prefer to protect the dead?

It would only be passing well under the Cemetery, what effect would it have, say as compared to passing under houses?

At present the area is also used for parking facilities for children being dropped off and picked up from school. It is directly adjacent to a very busy road each morning. I wonder how that aspect alone might be managed.

Ireland has a respect for the dead that borders on the fanatical. Glasnevin Cemetery recently had to back down on plans to build a chapel on site themselves, due to complaints surrounding unmarked graves. A different story going underground of course, but it'll still be a major source of objections, far worse than the Na Fianna grounds.

The current route of the Metro was chosen for a number of reasons, catchment area; ease of building; smallest number of CPOs, etc, but one of the reasons was also to reduce the amount of objections that they'd have to deal with. So the planners have looked at the area, knew that Na Fianna would scream bloody murder, and still think that the Na Fianna grounds are still worth it.

Personally speaking, I don't have any problem with lashing the tunnel underneath a cemetery, but I know an awful lot of people how would. I also don't have a problem with moving the station, but it's got to be for the right reasons. Moving it to reduce the amount of complaints and CPOs is a good reason, and I'd support it (anything to get it built faster), but I genuinely believe that going underneath Glasnevin Cemetery will bring a firestorm of objections. Even going closer to it will increase the objections, as from what I can see, it looks like it's possible to skirt the edge of the Cemetery, head under Botanic Gardens and still hit Ballymun Rd.

plodder · 23-04-2018 9:00am

CatInABox wrote: »

Highly unlikely that the route will go underneath a cemetery, there'd be far too many objections from quite a lot of diverse groups, from the church, to historians, to most political parties(all wanting to be seen to be protecting the memory of the rising/civil war).

I really don't see how anyone would have a problem with that.

yabadabado · 23-04-2018 10:38am

plodder wrote: »

I really don't see how anyone would have a problem with that.

I personally would have no problem with it but I'd expect there to be a huge backlash if it was planned.

piuswal · 23-04-2018 6:24pm

yabadabado wrote: »

I personally would have no problem with it but I'd expect there to be a huge backlash if it was planned.

Why a backlash?

Going 20 mtrs or so underneath with absolutely to visible interference. Are people crazy, putting children at risk instead!

I hear some group has got an invite to appear before an Oireachtas Committee, should make for interesting viewing and listening.

plodder · 23-04-2018 6:38pm

I'm still mystified. It would be going underneath and not disturb it at all. So, why would people object?

bk · 23-04-2018 6:40pm

piuswal wrote: »

Why a backlash?

Going 20 mtrs or so underneath with absolutely to visible interference. Are people crazy, putting children at risk instead!

I hear some group has got an invite to appear before an Oireachtas Committee, should make for interesting viewing and listening.

Putting children at risk! What nonsense.

Metro stations are built all over the world, in cities with much higher population densities, right next to schools, etc. The engineers are really good at minimising impact and danger to the areas around them, more so then a typical house or apartment building site!

marno21 · 23-04-2018 7:01pm

bk wrote: »

Putting children at risk! What nonsense.

Metro stations are built all over the world, in cities with much higher population densities, right next to schools, etc. The engineers are really good at minimising impact and danger to the areas around them, more so then a typical house or apartment building site!

Exactly. This project isn't going be built by a fly by night group of white van men.

roadmaster · 23-04-2018 7:37pm

marno21 wrote: »

Exactly. This project isn't going be built by a fly by night group of white van men.

No thats left to certain road construction projects

Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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