DART+ (DART Expansion)

Wild Bill · 02-05-2011 1:13am

DWCommuter wrote: »

Its the Irish way. FF talk it up, **** it up and then FG come in and cut it when they realise they have run out of a road that was fiction in the first place. (literally)

How naive! FF/FG are the same entity. Till we understand that the "Irish way" will continue. :cool:

DWCommuter · 02-05-2011 1:59am

Wild Bill wrote: »

How naive! FF/FG are the same entity. Till we understand that the "Irish way" will continue. :cool:

Can't you read?

There's about as much naivety in my post as there are lakes in the Sahara.

Wild Bill · 07-05-2011 11:54pm

Yes I can read. :cool:

OurLadyofKnock · 08-05-2011 1:57pm

Wild Bill wrote: »

How naive! FF/FG are the same entity. Till we understand that the "Irish way" will continue. :cool:

and so is Labour, Greens and all the others... I am sure DWC is well aware of the realities of politics. He was just pointing out it was FF who were the overseers of the disaster.

DWCommuter · 09-05-2011 12:16am

OurLadyofKnock wrote: »

and so is Labour, Greens and all the others... I am sure DWC is well aware of the realities of politics. He was just pointing out it was FF who were the overseers of the disaster.

I am aware of the politics, but it still annoys me that someone can come on here and misrepresent what I said either through ignorance or reading posts too quickly.

Wild Bill · 09-05-2011 9:18pm

ok dw...I missed your point. I apologise...:(

DWCommuter · 10-05-2011 12:10am

Wild Bill wrote: »

ok dw...I missed your point. I apologise...:(

No sweat. We're all cool.;)

BluntGuy · 10-07-2011 3:10am

Various times the second phase of the Kildare Route Project (KRP2) has been referred to here, but up until now little information has been available online.

IE have finally put up some info:

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

Project Description

Install two new railway tracks in parallel to existing tracks between Cherry Orchard and Inchicore

Electrify the route from Inchicore to Hazelhatch in order to deliver DART services. The route distance is approximately 15 kilometres

Upgrade two bridges at Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road

Provide a new junction at Inchicore to separate DART services from Intercity and regional services bound for Heuston

Brochure here

murphaph · 10-07-2011 2:10pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

Various times the second phase of the Kildare Route Project (KRP2) has been referred to here, but up until now little information has been available online.

IE have finally put up some info:

http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/kildare_route_project2.asp

Brochure here

All very strange really. A bit surreal even.

This project is needed, but alone delivers almost nothing of course. It assumes that DU will be built. I think it is ok to think that way (indeed failing to provide for future infrastructure has been an Irish problem) but they need to be realistic. Perhaps instead of the junction at Inchicore to tie in to an as yet unbuilt DU, they should spend that money (if any of it materialises) on running the wires to Heuston (or better yet to Heuston and through the PPT to Docklands) to allow for the (quite likely) scenario that the DU is not actually built for many years. At least this would provide a DART service that brought people from West Dublin to the city.

Could we really end up electrifying just Hazelhatch- Inchicore Works and have no tunnel and no way of DARTs proceeding to (at least) Heuston following the completion of this project? If so, don't bother. Spend the money on bus priority measures etc. instead as they'll deliver more than a disconnected DART from Hazelhatch - Inchicore. The fact IE never actually electrified Connolly-Inchicore Works via the PPT just for stock movements says a lot really.

chooochooo · 10-07-2011 4:47pm

murphaph wrote: »

All very strange really. A bit surreal even.

This project is needed, but alone delivers almost nothing of course. It assumes that DU will be built. I think it is ok to think that way (indeed failing to provide for future infrastructure has been an Irish problem) but they need to be realistic. Perhaps instead of the junction at Inchicore to tie in to an as yet unbuilt DU, they should spend that money (if any of it materialises) on running the wires to Heuston (or better yet to Heuston and through the PPT to Docklands) to allow for the (quite likely) scenario that the DU is not actually built for many years. At least this would provide a DART service that brought people from West Dublin to the city.

Could we really end up electrifying just Hazelhatch- Inchicore Works and have no tunnel and no way of DARTs proceeding to (at least) Heuston following the completion of this project? If so, don't bother. Spend the money on bus priority measures etc. instead as they'll deliver more than a disconnected DART from Hazelhatch - Inchicore. The fact IE never actually electrified Connolly-Inchicore Works via the PPT just for stock movements says a lot really.

Does it?
What I'm hearing is the stuck record that dreams the PPT is any use for regular commuter services.
I suspect that even if the whole 8th wonder of the world that the PPT clearly is was vapourised in a surprise nuclear attack....the same obsessives would be banging on about gold plating the walls/electrifying the line bla bla bla YAAAWN.

Why in the name of all that's bad and unholy would any even half brained Kildare line commuter want to go on a magical mystery tour of the Nth inner city past redundant industrial sites that have seen no life since the great flood to end up 30 mins later half way down the Nth wall to the UK..
when....
they can step out at Heuston and get the LUAS directly the OCS where they can collect 200 Euos in saved time and not have to pass through Cabra, Glasnevin, Phibsboro, Ballybough, East Wall and Docklands (because it won't be going anywhere near over capacity Connolly).
NOBODY will use it.
But....WTF, lets electrify the line anyway.
Just in case.

Victor · 10-07-2011 5:17pm

KRP2 is needed for other things. It replaces the bridges on Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road (which may carry Lucan Luas). It will add an extra tracks between the old Cherry Ordhard Station and Inchicore, which is currently only 2 tracks.

Electrification can happen whenever or indeed, in conjunction with the Maynooth line.

BluntGuy · 10-07-2011 5:40pm

murphaph wrote: »

This project is needed, but alone delivers almost nothing of course. It assumes that DU will be built.

Agreed, it still seems just a tad bit strange that this wasn't delivered along with the main DART Underground railway order.

Could we really end up electrifying just Hazelhatch- Inchicore Works and have no tunnel and no way of DARTs proceeding to (at least) Heuston following the completion of this project?

One has to wonder what the rationale for progressing this project is at the moment. It does seem rather unlikely that of the three (or four) projects Mr Varadkar says his department is considering, DART Underground would be the one to be progressed. Luas BXD wins on cost, and Metro North wins on immediacy.

Victor wrote: »

KRP2 is needed for other things. It replaces the bridges on Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road (which may carry Lucan Luas). It will add an extra tracks between the old Cherry Ordhard Station and Inchicore, which is currently only 2 tracks.

Electrification can happen whenever or indeed, in conjunction with the Maynooth line.

I would think the Maynooth line electrification would be beneficial even in the absence of DART Underground. Electrifying to Hazelhatch wouldn't seem to serve any real benefit though. I haven't looked through the documents, but unless track switches are provided I don't think the 2 tracks would provide any real benefits to commuter services either.

dubhthach · 10-07-2011 5:41pm

Victor wrote: »

KRP2 is needed for other things. It replaces the bridges on Le Fanu Road and Kylemore Road (which may carry Lucan Luas). It will add an extra tracks between the old Cherry Ordhard Station and Inchicore, which is currently only 2 tracks.

Electrification can happen whenever or indeed, in conjunction with the Maynooth line.

Indeed putting in the base infrastructure is the important thing. Additional tracks, the foundations for the Electricity pylons and new bridges. Of course there's also the fact that what usually happens in this country is it takes at least 6-10 years after the plans are released for construction to begin.

Wild Bill · 10-07-2011 6:01pm

Build it now; set the stage for Dart Underground.
And stop nitpicking

murphaph · 10-07-2011 7:10pm

chooochooo wrote: »

Does it?
What I'm hearing is the stuck record that dreams the PPT is any use for regular commuter services.
I suspect that even if the whole 8th wonder of the world that the PPT clearly is was vapourised in a surprise nuclear attack....the same obsessives would be banging on about gold plating the walls/electrifying the line bla bla bla YAAAWN.

Why in the name of all that's bad and unholy would any even half brained Kildare line commuter want to go on a magical mystery tour of the Nth inner city past redundant industrial sites that have seen no life since the great flood to end up 30 mins later half way down the Nth wall to the UK..
when....
they can step out at Heuston and get the LUAS directly the OCS where they can collect 200 Euos in saved time and not have to pass through Cabra, Glasnevin, Phibsboro, Ballybough, East Wall and Docklands (because it won't be going anywhere near over capacity Connolly).
NOBODY will use it.
But....WTF, lets electrify the line anyway.
Just in case.

Take a chill pill lad.

Have a read of my post again.

I am broadly in favour of this project IF electrification to Heuston is included. Electrifying Hazelhatch-Inchicore and waiting (for who knows how long) for an unbuilt tunnel to be funded and built would be folly of the highest order.

Adding the extra track capacity etc. is to be welcomed but only assuming more services take advantage of it!

Sponge Bob · 10-07-2011 8:11pm

They should do KRP2 excepting any electrification above ground level before they ever do DART Underground. All it is is 1 mile of quad track, 2 road bridges and the foundations for catenaries along the one mile stretch.

xper · 12-07-2011 12:07am

Remember nothing is being built yet. Its just drawings.

IE and RPA were instructed to bring all their future projects to the Railway Order stage so that when we win the Galactic Lotto, the government says 'Go' and stuff gets built with minimal further delay (a novel idea for Ireland, we'll how it works out!). So that's what they're doing.

KPR2 is an absolute pre-requisite for the full utilisation of Dart Underground so it is entirely sensible that it gets planned during this timeframe too. Remember certain posters derided IE for supposedly forgetting about the 'missing link' west of Inchicore when the Dart Underground drawings were first revealed :rolleyes: .

Furthermore, if DoT budgets don't stretch to initiating any major projects like MN or Luas BDX in the immediate future then it may be wiser , if less sexy, to invest what is available in a largely ancillary infrastructure project like this one for now, bar stringing up the wires perhaps, and reap the reward later.

There are couple of little surprises in the plans (to my non-engineering eye):

There seems to be no provision whatsoever for electrification into a couple of Heustons platforms. It limits offloading options if the event of a problem occurring in the Dart Underground tunnel.
The turnback options at Hazelhatch are also limited with no sidings bar the third middle platform and the electrified slow tracks ending shortly after the station with no points. Not much scope for lining up Darts for the morning rush.
The catenaries are single vertical supports situated in the centre between the up and down slow lines. They don't look like they could be capable of supporting overhead wires for the outer tracks if they wished to expand electrifiction to those. I was expecting more robust structures a beam spanning all four tracks with vertical supports on either side. Minimising cost, I assume.

DWCommuter · 12-07-2011 1:24am

xper wrote: »

Remember nothing is being built yet. Its just drawings.

IE and RPA were instructed to bring all their future projects to the Railway Order stage so that when we win the Galactic Lotto, the government says 'Go' and stuff gets built with minimal further delay (a novel idea for Ireland, we'll how it works out!). So that's what they're doing.

KPR2 is an absolute pre-requisite for the full utilisation of Dart Underground so it is entirely sensible that it gets planned during this timeframe too. Remember certain posters derided IE for supposedly forgetting about the 'missing link' west of Inchicore when the Dart Underground drawings were first revealed :rolleyes: .

Furthermore, if DoT budgets don't stretch to initiating any major projects like MN or Luas BDX in the immediate future then it may be wiser , if less sexy, to invest what is available in a largely ancillary infrastructure project like this one for now, bar stringing up the wires perhaps, and reap the reward later.

There are couple of little surprises in the plans (to my non-engineering eye):
There seems to be no provision whatsoever for electrification into a couple of Heustons platforms. It limits offloading options if the event of a problem occurring in the Dart Underground tunnel.

The turnback options at Hazelhatch are also limited with no sidings bar the third middle platform and the electrified slow tracks ending shortly after the station with no points. Not much scope for lining up Darts for the morning rush.

The catenaries are single vertical supports situated in the centre between the up and down slow lines. They don't look like they could be capable of supporting overhead wires for the outer tracks if they wished to expand electrifiction to those. I was expecting more robust structures a beam spanning all four tracks with vertical supports on either side. Minimising cost, I assume.

We will reinvent the Wheel over time. That's how things are done here. Watch this space. Trust me, it will happen and I fear for the younger generation that really believe all this nice shiny new stuff will either happen or be planned for at a later stage.

Absolutely not. Seriously.

Sponge Bob · 12-07-2011 6:07pm

xper wrote: »

KPR2 is an absolute pre-requisite for the full utilisation of Dart Underground so it is entirely sensible that it gets planned during this timeframe too. Remember certain posters derided IE for supposedly forgetting about the 'missing link' west of Inchicore when the Dart Underground drawings were first revealed :rolleyes: .

When you leave out a "pre requisite" you get derided. Simples

There are couple of little surprises in the plans (to my non-engineering eye):
There seems to be no provision whatsoever for electrification into a couple of Heustons platforms. It limits offloading options if the event of a problem occurring in the Dart Underground tunnel.

Bridge raising required in the gullet ( along st johns road/N4 )

The turnback options at Hazelhatch are also limited with no sidings bar the third middle platform and the electrified slow tracks ending shortly after the station with no points. Not much scope for lining up Darts for the morning rush.

Ehhhhh, they have cabs at both ends perhaps ???

The catenaries are single vertical supports situated in the centre between the up and down slow lines. They don't look like they could be capable of supporting overhead wires for the outer tracks if they wished to expand electrifiction to those. I was expecting more robust structures a beam spanning all four tracks with vertical supports on either side. Minimising cost, I assume.

There is and never was a plan to electrify the outer ( fast and long distance) network.

Victor · 13-07-2011 6:18pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

There is and never was a plan to electrify the outer ( fast and long distance) network.

Have a look at http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/KRP2/11%201.1%20K05%2090%20-%20Proposed%20Linear%20Works%20-%20Ch%2019000%20to%20Ch%2020000.pdf for "PROPOSED ALTERNATIVE 25KV AC TRACTION SUBSTATION".

What types of train use 25kV AC? Not suburban ones.

L1011 · 13-07-2011 6:28pm

Victor wrote: »

Have a look at http://www.irishrail.ie/projects/pdf/KRP2/11%201.1%20K05%2090%20-%20Proposed%20Linear%20Works%20-%20Ch%2019000%20to%20Ch%2020000.pdf for "PROPOSED ALTERNATIVE 25KV AC TRACTION SUBSTATION".

What types of train use 25kV AC? Not suburban ones.

Are they planning to buy a TGV or two?

Victor · 13-07-2011 6:46pm

MYOB wrote: »

Are they planning to buy a TGV or two?

25kV Ac is the emerging dominant current for all long distance services.

They've done a study to electrify lines (certainly Cork-Dublin-Belfast, but others also).

brownbeard · 13-07-2011 11:26pm

BluntGuy wrote: »

It does seem rather unlikely that of the three (or four) projects Mr Varadkar says his department is considering, DART Underground would be the one to be progressed. Luas BXD wins on cost, and Metro North wins on immediacy.

http://www.herald.ie/national-news/city-news/euro15m-liffey-bridge-will-go-ahead-varadkar-2820460.html

Is this possibly foreshadowing the BXD choice in Sept instead of DU and MN?

Cheapest choice looks like it's going to win i think. I can't find the same story from any sources more reputable than the Herald though. Hmmm...

Victor · 14-07-2011 2:12am

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Bridge raising required in the gullet ( along st johns road/N4 )

There are few bridges between Inchicore and Heuston

1 Pedestrian ("Khyber"?) bridge at Inchicore.
2 Singal gantry at Murrays Cottages.
3 Memorial Road - surely plenty of clearance?
4 Singal gantry at Heuston Square.
5 Singal gantry at South Circular Road - has this been removed?
6 South Circular Road Bridge - modern.
7 St. Johns Road Bridge - modern.

Sarsfield Road goes under the railway.

jjbrien · 14-07-2011 2:20am

i honestly dont know why they are waisting money on this theres a rail link to Heuston already from Connolly it braches off at Glassnevin the goes trough cabra under the phoneix park and joins up at heauston this should have been turned into a dart route years ago putting a station on glassnevin a station on the cabra road and one in the phoneix park would ahve linked the whole network up but the powers that be just have tunnel vision

Victor · 14-07-2011 2:30am

Because people want to go to places like O'Connell Bridge and St. Stephen's Green, not Phibsborough. Connolly Station is quite congested.

sdanseo · 14-07-2011 3:40am

Victor wrote: »

Because people want to go to places like O'Connell Bridge and St. Stephen's Green, not Phibsborough. Connolly Station is quite congested.

What about a totally new approach.

First, scrap cross-city intercity services. Start the Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk, Rosslare services from their respective stations either side of the bridge. This frees up some of the bottleneck. I've never understood the lack of takeup of the idea of connecting services.

Then, run three seperate DART lines. The main one is Maynooth-Greystones.
Second, a Spur from Drumcondra to Hazelhatch via PPT with the bridge measures above. Third, Balbriggan or Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock Platform 3 via the loopline.

Re-align platform 4 at Connolly to redirect to the loopline. This may not even be strictly nessecary.

Then, run trains at, say, 12 minute intervals on all three lines as a capacity test. That's a train every 4 minutes over the loopline - approx. equivalent to current maximum capacity of 16 movements per hour per direction. After Grand Canal Dock, southwards, the line will need to handle a train every 6 minutes per direction as far as Bray (10 per hour which IIRC is about the current limit), plus whatever Rosslare/Gorey services have to fit as well - more than manageable, given the sparsity of Rosslare services and remembering that these would be peak frequencies.

Thoughts?

Edit: Illustrated version:

chooochooo · 14-07-2011 6:13am

sdeire wrote: »

What about a totally new approach.

First, scrap cross-city intercity services. Start the Balbriggan, Drogheda, Dundalk, Rosslare services from their respective stations either side of the bridge. This frees up some of the bottleneck. I've never understood the lack of takeup of the idea of connecting services.

Then, run three seperate DART lines. The main one is Maynooth-Greystones.
Second, a Spur from Drumcondra to Hazelhatch via PPT with the bridge measures above. Third, Balbriggan or Drogheda to Grand Canal Dock Platform 3 via the loopline.

Re-align platform 4 at Connolly to redirect to the loopline. This may not even be strictly nessecary.

Then, run trains at, say, 12 minute intervals on all three lines as a capacity test. That's a train every 4 minutes over the loopline - approx. equivalent to current maximum capacity of 16 movements per hour per direction. After Grand Canal Dock, southwards, the line will need to handle a train every 6 minutes per direction as far as Bray (10 per hour which IIRC is about the current limit), plus whatever Rosslare/Gorey services have to fit as well - more than manageable, given the sparsity of Rosslare services and remembering that these would be peak frequencies.

Thoughts?

Edit: Illustrated version:

not going to happen.
turning the whole system upside down just to send trains through the PPT.
risible fantasy.

sdanseo · 14-07-2011 12:33pm

chooochooo wrote: »

not going to happen.
turning the whole system upside down just to send trains through the PPT.
risible fantasy.

Surely makes more sense though than spending €3-5 billion that we don't have on a project that we can't afford, will probably make a hames of and which would only deliver a single new station? (Christchurch)

With the above exception, people can get to anywhere served by the proposed DU scheme with just one connection from most places in the city.

And if and when DU does come onstream (I may have called it a wet dream, but it's still a good project - we just can't pay for it right now and there are higher priorities) the PPT route will be electrified facilitating more choices of routes going forward.

D.L.R. · 14-07-2011 2:47pm

People talk about the Phoenix Park Tunnel as if its some sort of untapped gem.. but I struggle to think of a practical everyday use. Gah matchdays sure, but what else? Answers on a postcard...

It tell ya what, combined with Dart Underground it would make a pretty decent orbital line. But while Irish Rail/RPA are in charge, nothing innovative like that will happen.

Please RATP, S'il vous plaît! Libère-nous!! Chemins de fer irlandais ne sont pas intéressés par les clients, ils sont seulement intéressés à être paresseux et recueillir leurs salaires!

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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