Low electricity users hit with extra charge

maggy_thatcher · 27-02-2012 6:02pm

Midnight Sundance wrote: »

I'm not always in my house. What would on average use 2 units a day? If you have fridge and freezer on would that be enough?? I've a sky box on standby also.

So if you are on holiday and everything is turned off, will they charge you for not using electricity for the "two weeks" your away not using it even tho perhaps you're using over 2 units the rest of the time???

A fridge/freezer is probably close to two units a day alright (esp. if you open/close the door a few times).

The charge is averaged out over the 2 months - so if have it at zero units for 2 weeks, then the rest of the time has to be 2.6 units/day (2 units a day works out at approx 122 units a bill - if you're away for 14 days, then you have to do 122 units in 47 days -- 2.6 units/day).

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 6:05pm

Mate gave me an old electric heater there in the winter. Real heavy dute one that looked like a radiator, only larger. Needed it as the place we just moved into had no central heating due to gas pipes having burst and needing replacing.

Anyway, two months later our two-month bill came in and I nearly passed out when I opened it: €1100!

I phoned up and went Dizzee Rascal down the line. No way could we have used it. So the guy asked me what I was using and I mentioned the old electric radiator and he told me to switch everything off in the house and leave the heater on for two full hours exactly (taking a meter reading before and after) - which I did and phoned him with the numbers - and the bloody thing was only costing €3.20 per hour!! :eek:

We had it on at least five hours a day for those two months!

tl:dr - Don't use those old electric heaters - turns out those Energy Ratings actually do mean something afterall.

gbee · 27-02-2012 6:34pm

BTW, have many noticed that the bills are not two months anymore.

Kirby · 27-02-2012 6:39pm

Being charged for NOT using electricity. I see.

Atleast we don't have a eh... leaving town tax.

Oh wait......

Chuck Stone · 27-02-2012 7:00pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Can someone tell me why electricity isn't automatically cheaper off peak?

I don't mean to be pedantic at all but I'm going to be completely pedantic here and say that 'shite naver' is not really automatic as per the Q. above.

CardBordWindow wrote: »

nightsaver.vid.youtube

AFAIK shite naver elec involves a greater standing charge so it only suits heavy users.

Biggins answer, that a more technical meter would be needed, is probably the answer that makes most sense.

It just seems fantastically stupid to have to have the capacity for peak time use which I presume would be between 5pm & 9pm when lower off peak prices would surely reduce the need for standby power generation which would = lower costs and lower bills.

Another thing, the bastards don't pay people decent feed in tariffs for micro and small scale generation which seems to make sense in the move toward energy independence.

Christ I'm getting pissed off thinking about it.. :mad:

OneArt · 27-02-2012 7:03pm

Every time I see a thread like this I feel just that little bit better I don't live in Ireland anymore.

I'm starting to think maybe South Africa wasn't such a bad place if you don't mind the gun crimes...

Sonnenblumen · 27-02-2012 7:19pm

the groutch wrote: »

it will be mostly 2nd homes or holiday homes effected, it's almost impossible to live on less than 2 units a day in a property

Why so? perhaps a fat cat celtic tiger energy burning bloated pig might struggle. But a modest house well insulated with a highly efficient energy consumption not so.

I hope this price is challenged, it does seem to penalise the wisdom of low energy users (and no not holiday home dwellers. I read in the Irish Times today a spokesman for ESB explained a 4 x 60 Watt bulbs would consume 1 Unit in 3 hours. Last time I checked 1 Unit = 1 KWhr?

BTW I use 3 watt LED lighting which consumes virtually no electricity. Are consumers like me now to be penalised for investing in energy efficient lighting, appliances etc?

How is ESB incurring losses in energy efficient homes? They have the most expensive tariffs, standing charges etc. More bolloxology from a fat semi-state which has been pumped by mad CER regulations!!:mad:

Degag · 27-02-2012 7:21pm

eth0 wrote: »

The meters already exist but they'd probably want us to pay another 200e fixed tax that everyone with a house has to pay supposedly for the meter. While of course the meters are imported from Chickity China land for about 20e - the rest goes to TD's friends and the troika.

We should organise a mass switching-on of heavy appliances at around 7pm just as a way of telling these fckers to cop themselves on. Better than calling up Joe "Sure aren't we all strugglin" Duffy and forgetting about it

The first meter exchange at a property is free.

GreeBo · 27-02-2012 7:24pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

BTW I use 3 watt LED lighting which consumes virtually no electricity.

Not that I agree with it, but dont you have a fridge and a kettle and an alarm and a television and a freezer and a digital box and a mobile phone etc etc?

Chuck Stone · 27-02-2012 7:26pm

eth0 wrote: »

TWe should organise a mass switching-on of heavy appliances at around 7pm just as a way of telling these fckers to cop themselves on.

That's a bloody good idea.

If everyone turned on the kettle + tumble dryer + immersion heater + washing machine at exactly 7pm we could make a point.

How's about a facebook campaign?

Mr.Biscuits · 27-02-2012 7:26pm

Bord Gais has always had a standard charge.

oppenheimer1 · 27-02-2012 7:39pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

That's a bloody good idea.

If everyone turned on the kettle + tumble dryer + immersion heater + washing machine at exactly 7pm we could make a point.

How's about a facebook campaign?

And what point would that be? To overload the network to the point of collapse, leaving a widespread blackout that causes severe economic damage to everyone but the ESB? Sch a campaign is ill thought out and utterly nonsensical.

In fact I'd doubt such an exercise would even be possible... On Christmas day almost all the electric ovens are turned on at 3pm let the load on the network is less than a typical day. Its industry that uses the majority of the electricity. Aughinish Smelter being a particularly heavy user and possibly the biggest consumer of electricity in the country.

Chuck Stone · 27-02-2012 8:25pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what point would that be? To overload the network to the point of collapse, leaving a widespread blackout that causes severe economic damage to everyone but the ESB? Sch a campaign is ill thought out and utterly nonsensical.

Yeah, you're right.

It's better that we just be quiet and accept everything that's thrown at us.

Sonnenblumen · 27-02-2012 8:39pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Not that I agree with it, but dont you have a fridge and a kettle and an alarm and a television and a freezer and a digital box and a mobile phone etc etc?

I have various elctrical appliances, but thats not the point. The point is that these Ffers want to penalise low users, whereas, high users should be penalise, afterall, the higher the consumption the higher the CO2 etc. Low users should be rewarded.

I really hate this regressive semi state backward economics. :mad::mad::mad:

woodoo · 27-02-2012 8:48pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

BTW I use 3 watt LED lighting which consumes virtually no electricity. Are consumers like me now to be penalised for investing in energy efficient lighting, appliances etc?

How is ESB incurring losses in energy efficient homes? They have the most expensive tariffs, standing charges etc. More bolloxology from a fat semi-state which has been pumped by mad CER regulations!!:mad:

This is it.

It amounts to an anti-green policy. Charge green minded people money for being efficient with their electricity use. Its maddening. I really hope a big fuss is kicked up over this.

They have the highest unit energy costs in the EU and they have a hefty standing charge. How so they get away with this s**t.

Sell up the ESB now i'm sick of them.

eth0 · 27-02-2012 8:48pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what point would that be? To overload the network to the point of collapse, leaving a widespread blackout that causes severe economic damage to everyone but the ESB? Sch a campaign is ill thought out and utterly nonsensical.

In fact I'd doubt such an exercise would even be possible... On Christmas day almost all the electric ovens are turned on at 3pm let the load on the network is less than a typical day. Its industry that uses the majority of the electricity. Aughinish Smelter being a particularly heavy user and possibly the biggest consumer of electricity in the country.

An oven doesn't use a massive amount of electricity. 900w is about average I think.

The idea isn't to cause a massive blackout, just to draw a load of expensive peak time energy till they drop this nonsense charge. People that are just under the threshold could have an electric heater or 3 come on for 15 minutes at 7pm and it wouldn't cost them any extra.

Even if it did cause overload it's unlikely to take down the whole network. They'll probably load shed everything till its just the few remaining factories in Ireland that are in the process of moving to China anyway, and the TD's 1st and 2nd houses left with power

woodoo · 27-02-2012 8:54pm

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And what point would that be? To overload the network to the point of collapse, leaving a widespread blackout that causes severe economic damage to everyone but the ESB? Sch a campaign is ill thought out and utterly nonsensical.

In fact I'd doubt such an exercise would even be possible... On Christmas day almost all the electric ovens are turned on at 3pm let the load on the network is less than a typical day. Its industry that uses the majority of the electricity. Aughinish Smelter being a particularly heavy user and possibly the biggest consumer of electricity in the country.

But they calculate for that. Its a balancing game. If the system is suddenly overloaded without them knowing then it would collapse.

truebloodfan · 27-02-2012 9:37pm

storage heaters are crazy on electricity, which is why i moved house (renting) i worked out that my actually bill without storage heaters was 24 euro the other 250 was standing charge and storage heater(i knew cause its nightsaver and it was the only thing that was on at night. paying a bit extra rent a but am saving 160 at least every esb bill

midlandsmissus · 27-02-2012 9:48pm

truebloodfan wrote: »

storage heaters are crazy on electricity, which is why i moved house (renting) i worked out that my actually bill without storage heaters was 24 euro the other 250 was standing charge and storage heater(i knew cause its nightsaver and it was the only thing that was on at night. paying a bit extra rent a but am saving 160 at least every esb bill

I'm afraid of the storage heaters. I think I'm going to get a little portable radiator and not touch the storage heater again.

eth0 · 27-02-2012 9:52pm

Storage heaters are put into rented apartments because they're cheap to install and the landlord obviously doesn't pay to run them.

saa · 27-02-2012 9:55pm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

I'm afraid of the storage heaters. I think I'm going to get a little portable radiator and not touch the storage heater again.

I dunno I used my storage and fan heater nov-dec and my bill was 60
bought an "energy efficient" thermal radiation portable heater, used it the same amount and my bill was 150 jan-feb

truebloodfan · 27-02-2012 10:05pm

will never forget the time i got a mad bill , rang esb up with correct reading, they then charged the small day unit reading at the nite saver price and the night units(storage heating) at day price. if that wasnt enough they proceeded to add that to the bill i had rang in to correct to get a total of 650 euro. and it took 2 more phone calls before they finally got it right. we should charge them an incompetence charge, lol

WhatNowForUs? · 27-02-2012 10:07pm

facemelter wrote: »

In fairness to the ESB fuel is getting more and more expensive , and they comsume massive amouts compared to every day use , they've already slashed their workers pensions and pay. its not like your getting the worse deal out of everyone effect by them try to save money

So we make the problem worse by making sure uber efficient people with their energy are made to use more.

midlandsmissus · 27-02-2012 10:45pm

saa wrote: »

I dunno I used my storage and fan heater nov-dec and my bill was 60
bought an "energy efficient" thermal radiation portable heater, used it the same amount and my bill was 150 jan-feb

How did you use your storage heater? Because I'm so worried about leaving it on all night. Just sounds like that will run up a massive bill.

And this might be a stupid question, bear with me, if the nightsaver tariff runs to 7am do i have to get up at 7am to turn it off. Like if I sleep in till 8 and leave it running for this hour, that will negate all my good nightsaving energy work and charge me a fortune for the hour?

WhatNowForUs? · 27-02-2012 10:51pm

midlandsmissus wrote: »

How did you use your storage heater? Because I'm so worried about leaving it on all night. Just sounds like that will run up a massive bill.

And this might be a stupid question, bear with me, if the nightsaver tariff runs to 7am do i have to get up at 7am to turn it off. Like if I sleep in till 8 and leave it running for this hour, that will negate all my good nightsaving energy work and charge me a fortune for the hour?

Look for a timer on the heater. it should be there somewhere.

K-9 · 27-02-2012 10:59pm

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To anyone defending this on grounds of it only hitting holiday homes etc: If you have a holiday home and you're not currently using any electricity in it, then you shouldn't have to pay any electricity bills for it. Simple as.
An electricity bill is NOT a tax, it's a price you pay for receiving a product. If you're not using that product then there's no excuse for charging you for it.

This is absolutely moronic.
If they want to introduce a subscription charge or something they should be honest about it and say it like it is.

Probably better just cutting the supply off. The charge is for the provision of the service, if you aren't using it, disconnect it.

This charge seems stupid. Many people who have energy efficient home could get caught for it during the Summer.

eth0 · 27-02-2012 11:05pm

The charge isn't really high enough to send people off the grid though. With holiday homes they would be hard to rent out if they were off the grid. Reconnection fee is high.

Holiday homes are usually built cheap and fitted with electric everything in most cases so no problem burning through 25+ units a day when people are in it, then nothing for ages when they leave.

oppenheimer1 · 27-02-2012 11:05pm

woodoo wrote: »

But they calculate for that. Its a balancing game. If the system is suddenly overloaded without them knowing then it would collapse.

And this is somehow in our interest?

I personally don't have a problem with the charge as it is really only going to affect those with second homes and unoccupied apartments (ie landlords and developers). It is not possible to run a home on less than 2 units a day, in fact the baseload for a typical house would well exceed that.

One would have to be extremely green, or frugal to actually live on less than 2 units a day. - Thats about €11 a month (+ €12 standing charge). If you don't like it, change provider. Its that simple.

K-9 · 27-02-2012 11:14pm

eth0 wrote: »

The charge isn't really high enough to send people off the grid though. With holiday homes they would be hard to rent out if they were off the grid. Reconnection fee is high.

Holiday homes are usually built cheap and fitted with electric everything in most cases so no problem burning through 25+ units a day when people are in it, then nothing for ages when they leave.

I think Airtricity now charge about €40/45 per disconnection/reconnection (assume ESB are near that) so if the holiday home wasn't used much from say October to April, cheaper to disconnect. Mightn't be advisable during a cold winter though!

gbee · 27-02-2012 11:28pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

afterall, the higher the consumption the higher the CO2 etc.

No, not entirely, the CO2 is created at manufacture, a low or high domestic user has no further effect on CO2 production.

RonMexico · 27-02-2012 11:38pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BOFkDoxXaGQ

Zen65 · 28-02-2012 1:08am

the groutch wrote: »

it will be mostly 2nd homes or holiday homes effected, it's almost impossible to live on less than 2 units a day in a property

This is correct.

If you look at the appliance calculator on ESB's website you'll see how quickly your house uses more than 2 units per day.

Personally I'm quite happy that Electric Ireland is bringing in this charge rather than simply raising the unit price for everyone. In effect this means that ESB are now giving discounts to people who use a decent amount of electricity (in the sense of being proportionate to the network infrastructure which was built to supply that electricity to their house).

At 2 units per day this will really only affect the people wealthy enough to have a holiday home. Why should my electricity bill be increased to fund their inefficient use of infrastructure??

I think the media are being disingenuous on this!

Z

gbee · 28-02-2012 1:18am

Zen65 wrote: »

I think the media are being disingenuous on this!
Z

I can take your point and agree with it, but, however, I'm in a disingenuous mood and it sends out the wrong message, if you save on electricity usage, we will charge you MORE>

I think there is a vacancy in their PR department TBH.

Humans eh! · 28-02-2012 1:36am

Biggins wrote: »

Some are afraid to show they have a backbone - they fear our government might next, tax that too!

This,
Is
Spinal
Tax.

:pac:

woodoo · 28-02-2012 1:50am

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

And this is somehow in our interest?

I personally don't have a problem with the charge as it is really only going to affect those with second homes and unoccupied apartments (ie landlords and developers). It is not possible to run a home on less than 2 units a day, in fact the baseload for a typical house would well exceed that.

One would have to be extremely green, or frugal to actually live on less than 2 units a day. - Thats about €11 a month (+ €12 standing charge). If you don't like it, change provider. Its that simple.

Its a dangerous precedent though. Who is to say they all won't be at it in a number of years and its at 10 units per day. They could always claim thats what they need to break even (even if its just pulled from their hat).

midlandsmissus · 28-02-2012 3:57am

Last question about storage heaters! How many hours should I put it on for over night?

Markcheese · 28-02-2012 6:55am

You'd have to be more than uber efficient to be using less than 2 units a day.... It's a free Market now, they can charge what they like..... Of course you could just change supplier to eirtricity, bordgais ect. ..... But that's what they want isn't it......

amacachi · 28-02-2012 7:12am

Mr.Biscuits wrote: »

Mate gave me an old electric heater there in the winter. Real heavy dute one that looked like a radiator, only larger. Needed it as the place we just moved into had no central heating due to gas pipes having burst and needing replacing.

Anyway, two months later our two-month bill came in and I nearly passed out when I opened it: €1100!

I phoned up and went Dizzee Rascal down the line. No way could we have used it. So the guy asked me what I was using and I mentioned the old electric radiator and he told me to switch everything off in the house and leave the heater on for two full hours exactly (taking a meter reading before and after) - which I did and phoned him with the numbers - and the bloody thing was only costing €3.20 per hour!! :eek:

We had it on at least five hours a day for those two months!

A 20 kilowatt electric heater? I'm not buying it. The energy has to go somewhere and that much doesn't just disappear.
There's a few options:
-It would make any room unbearably warm within a couple of minutes.
-It would vibrate so quickly as to make the building it was in collapse.
-It would make such loud noise that you would have had the Gardai around.
-It emitted so much light that it could be seen from space.

Or maybe it was all converted to potential energy by putting it in a space elevator. Whatever the case, I'm not buying it.

GreeBo · 28-02-2012 4:57pm

The charge is to make up for the loss caused by admin for people who dont use enough. The other option is to increase the standing charge for everybody. Would you prefer to be subsidising someone else?

As for the suggestions about trying to shutdown the system by causing an unexpected surge. Super idea!
Stick it to the man! (the man who provides you with electricity)
Seriously? What will you do if you do somehow cause an issue with your electricity provider? Light a candle and celebrate? :rolleyes:

bonzodog2 · 28-02-2012 5:34pm

The standing charge should cover the costs of administering your account. Whether the current charge does so, and is the regulator to blame, is another question or two. The usage should be charged at a rate according to the cost of production, possibly with some discounting for volume users.

Do pensioners still get free units, or did that morph into some kind of SW Fuel allowance ?

Sonnenblumen · 28-02-2012 7:34pm

gbee wrote: »

No, not entirely, the CO2 is created at manufacture, a low or high domestic user has no further effect on CO2 production.

I think you're missing the point. 1 domestic user will have no impact on CO2 emmission levels but 100,000 energy efficient domestic customers will.

Why should those customers who invest in more energy efficient homes be penalised?:(

gbee · 28-02-2012 7:44pm

Sonnenblumen wrote: »

Why should those customers who invest in more energy efficient homes be penalised?:(

It's like an episode of the Simpsons, Lisa is all for recycling until she sees what Mr. Burns is really doing.

It's simple, if you save on fuel or electricity they will increase the price, if you don't use toll roads they take some of your Tax money and give it to the toll company and so on and on ~ electric care are the next biggest racket but their schemes are endless.

I could tell you that batteries could be manufactured today that could run an electric car for a hundred years, we have abundant energy resources, but it's far more fun to play games and fool the masses.

eth0 · 28-02-2012 10:00pm

gbee wrote: »

It's like an episode of the Simpsons, Lisa is all for recycling until she sees what Mr. Burns is really doing.

It's simple, if you save on fuel or electricity they will increase the price, if you don't use toll roads they take some of your Tax money and give it to the toll company and so on and on ~ electric care are the next biggest racket but their schemes are endless.

I could tell you that batteries could be manufactured today that could run an electric car for a hundred years, we have abundant energy resources, but it's far more fun to play games and fool the masses.

Tell me more about the 100 year battery. It isnt the Nickel Iron one is it?

maggy_thatcher · 02-03-2012 12:53am

maggy_thatcher wrote: »

A fridge/freezer is probably close to two units a day alright (esp. if you open/close the door a few times).

Just to correct myself here - I checked our fridge this evening, and the sticker on it says 0.88kW/24h - so it uses a little less than 1 unit per day. Your fridge probably has a similar sticker inside that gives you this information.

socco · 02-03-2012 1:17am

this charge is crazy. They should be focusing on reducing costs internally and not setting minimum prices on usage for customers.

Zen65 · 02-03-2012 1:48am

socco wrote: »

this charge is crazy. They should be focusing on reducing costs internally and not setting minimum prices on usage for customers.

Do you think it's crazy when your local takeaway says "Minimum order for delivery is €10" even though they add €1.20 when they deliver to you?

There is a point for any company where the cost of providing a service makes that service uneconomical, and no amount of internal cost reduction can close that gap. Using less than two units a day every day for two months is not being efficient... it's being absent (because it's a holiday home). Users that are connected to the grid ultimately end up reserving capacity from the network operator, but if they don't use it then the investment by the operator is wasted (the connection will not pay for itself).

You can fix that by increasing the standing charge a little for everyone, or by targeting holiday homes & apartments. Personally I think the latter is the better option; poor people don't have holiday homes.

Z

NakedNNettles · 02-03-2012 12:11pm

^^^^^^^^^^Totally agree with the above, my take is why should the taxpayer be picking up the tab on running ESB lines into the back of beyonds just so someone can have their dream holiday home that they stay in one weekend a year.

I have no sympathy on these people, they can afford two houses now let them pay up for the public services too and stop shoving the cost on the rest of us.

Casillas · 02-03-2012 12:18pm

This flippin country lately. There's a tax on wearing shorts. We're not wearing shorts. I mean a tax on not wearing shorts. Mad stuff.

jack presley · 02-03-2012 12:24pm

NakedNNettles wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^Totally agree with the above, my take is why should the taxpayer be picking up the tab on running ESB lines into the back of beyonds just so someone can have their dream holiday home that they stay in one weekend a year.

I have no sympathy on these people, they can afford two houses now let them pay up for the public services too and stop shoving the cost on the rest of us.

Yeah but where are the headlines in the papers going to come from then? How are supposed to rant about chief executive pay, wedding bonuses (that was my favourite) or staff earning over €100k a year?

mikemac1 · 02-03-2012 12:43pm

NakedNNettles wrote: »

^^^^^^^^^^Totally agree with the above, my take is why should the taxpayer be picking up the tab on running ESB lines into the back of beyonds just so someone can have their dream holiday home that they stay in one weekend a year.

That is paid for.
When I built on my site we paid two thousand euro to ESB. I think Eirgrid handle this now.

Two thousand euro yet the site was right on the road and power lines right there, no fields to be crossed or long distances to be covered

They don't connect for free you know

Low electricity users hit with extra charge

Comments