SUSI refusing lease as proof of residency (despite asking for one!)

runswithascript · 23-03-2015 2:33pm #1

Hi

Long before I started my degree this year I checked which documents were required for SUSI to make sure I had them all. I opted to use a lease I had as proof of residency.

SUSI sent me a letter advising I still need to provide proof of residency. After calling and speaking to a supervisor he told me my application should have been accepted, that I should appeal, and that he believes my application will be accepted on appeal.

I received the news from SUSI last week that my appeal was rejected. This despite hand writing a two and a half page letter explaining I do not have an utility bills as I rent a room, I only pay a small amount towards bills as I live with friends of mine, and as the room is not registered for rent with the PRTB I cannot supply that sort of documentation.

Frustratingly the appeal rejection said the same as the initial rejection, I had not proven independent residency of my parents AND they included a list of documents they accept - INCLUDING A LEASE!

I would have made sure I had a utility bill for October 2013 if I had known I would need it. It did not seem I would as SUSI specify a lease as proof of independent residency

I can appeal the appeal though I am now not sure there is any point. I work part time and not receiving this grant towards my fees is going to put a major strain on me. I really do not know what to do and I am hoping someone here can advise me?

runswithascript · 23-03-2015 2:36pm

Just to add when they initially rejected my application the agent that answered the phone told me 'sometimes they accept a lease, sometimes they do not' and mentioned the lease being rejected as parts of it are handwritten. The lease was proper and correct, and just like every other lease, bought from a shop, printed, and only signatures and special terms and conditions were handwritten.

Sup08 · 27-03-2015 12:21am

Hi dusf,
Does you name appear on the lease and is it a registered lease with the PRTB?

If your landlord is not registered with the PRTB then the lease may not be accepted. If you are sub renting a room and it is part of the rent a room scheme, then this is accepted but it must also be registered.

On the letter requesting the documents, AFAIK, it says " an example of the documents that can be provided" or something along these lines appears mean the list of documents is not exhaustive.
Also under the student grant scheme and student finance act 2011, it is up to the applicant to "satisfy the awarding authority" and therefore, SUSI can request other/more documents from you to satisfy the authority.
Unfortunately, whatever lease you have provided them with, they are not satisfied and therefore have rejected it and you need to provide more evidence of independent residence.
So everything that you can gather as evidence of "Independent Residence" from the 1st October of the year prior to your point of entry can be submitted to back up your claim.

IF you have already appealed and this has been rejected, then you can appeal to the Student Grants Appeals Board (SGAB) to further review your application.

Annasopra · 28-03-2015 2:55pm

Yes there is a point in appealing and even going to the ombudsman too.

runswithascript · 28-03-2015 6:11pm

Thanks for replies, will reply properly later with info.

runswithascript · 29-05-2015 10:40am

Sorry for the late reply.

After my initial application being rejected, many months worrying, two rejected SUSI internal appeals, and my final appeal to the Student Grants Appeals Board at the Department of Education, which is independent of SUSI, I finally received word that it has been decided I have provided sufficient evidence to be assessed as an independent student!

:):):) SUSI had told me previously that this was the only issue with my application, and they have been instructed by the department to provide me with their decision within 21 days.

I am going to give some information in the hope it may help someone else appealing a rejection on similar grounds, although at this point it may not be of any use to anyone until next year.

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Yes there is a point in appealing and even going to the ombudsman too.

The first thing I would say is although it is very, very disheartening to receive not just the initial application rejection, but also two appeal rejections from SUSI, if you believe you truly have a case hang in there, and exhausting as your attempts may be to provide ever more evidence each time, keep trying. I was prepared to take it to the ombudsman if this final appeal was rejected, there are details on how to do so somewhere on the SUSI website.

Sup08 wrote: »

Hi dusf,
Does you name appear on the lease and is it a registered lease with the PRTB?

If your landlord is not registered with the PRTB then the lease may not be accepted. If you are sub renting a room and it is part of the rent a room scheme, then this is accepted but it must also be registered.

My name is on the lease but I pay very little rent and it is really just to cover the bills so the dwelling is not registered with the PRTB.

Sup08 wrote: »

On the letter requesting the documents, AFAIK, it says " an example of the documents that can be provided" or something along these lines appears mean the list of documents is not exhaustive.

I am not at home so I do not have the documents to hand and I looked for a few minutes on SUSI's website but I could not find the exact wording either. I think it actually says something more along the lines of 'examples of documents that are accepted' which to me sounds like a categoric statement that any of said documents are accepted. I had SUSI agents tell me 'sometimes leases are accepted on their own, sometimes they are not, it really depends which deciding officer you get on the day' - this is people's future and education we are talking about, and I think that is a damning indictment of SUSI. What a crock of sh!t.

Sup08 wrote: »

Also under the student grant scheme and student finance act 2011, it is up to the applicant to "satisfy the awarding authority" and therefore, SUSI can request other/more documents from you to satisfy the authority.

That is fine, but if there is any chance that they are not going to accept a lease (which is a document they have stipulated will be accepted) without further supporting documentation from the October prior, they need to make that clear on the application form. Unfortunately I did not have access to a time machine to go back to the previous October and put a utility bill in my name.

Sup08 wrote: »

Unfortunately, whatever lease you have provided them with, they are not satisfied and therefore have rejected it and you need to provide more evidence of independent residence.

There was no grounds to reject the lease, it is not like it was scribbled on the back of a napkin, it was just like any other lease I have had, and any other lease the landlord, who has many properties, issues to tenants. I believe my application may have been rejected because of pressure over funding.

Sup08 wrote: »

So everything that you can gather as evidence of "Independent Residence" from the 1st October of the year prior to your point of entry can be submitted to back up your claim.

Unfortunately this is not the case. It is not from the 1st of October, as in any documentation from that date onwards, instead they would only accept documents dated October 2013.

Sup08 wrote: »

IF you have already appealed and this has been rejected, then you can appeal to the Student Grants Appeals Board (SGAB) to further review your application.

I am almost as happy about finally being vindicated by SGAB as I am by the fact I will not have to go into debt to receive a decent education! On the off chance someone from SGAB reads this, thank you for having sense, and I will use my education to earn more money than I would without, and contribute more in taxes to the state.

The following are extra documents I provided with my final application SGAB. These were not asked for and not on the list of documentation requested by SUSI but I felt better to include too much than too little, and I believe they helped my case:

1. Several A4 page to who it may concern letter covering the efforts I had made thus far to provide proof I was independent, why I believe SUSI were wrong to reject my application, and explaining I had not lived with my parents many years and that I have included documentation to support this although none from October 2013 specifically.

2. ESB, Eircom etc. bills with my name on them, one for each of the years roughly between 2006 - 2013 - just not October 2013.

3. Any letter I had from anywhere official that mentioned I was independent of my parents - I think I included one from around 2004 when I was applying for some other grant.

4. Separate letters from both of my parents explaining I did not live with them for many years and that they do not support me. I spoke with a barrister and he advised that affidavits would be no better than letters for this.

I bound all of this in one of those black thesis binders and sent it in by registered post.

Please let me know if this helps anyone.

Sup08 · 29-05-2015 11:38am

Well done.

Red Soup · 09-06-2015 11:47am

Congrats to the OP for getting the grant, but it doesn't make me very confident about mine.

I lived in South Korea for 2013: I have some utility bills (All in Korean except my name) and one bank giro (in English). I expect that to be rejected as proof of independent residency, and there's really no other way I can prove my residency at that apartment (without going through my old employer there in Korean, and then getting documents translated and sent, which would cost money and time I don't have).

In 2014- March 2015 I lived in shared rented accommodation. No lease (just a rolling monthly cash payment), we paid electricity and gas by card, our landlord was fairly shady so I sincerely doubt was registered for PRTB. How am I supposed to prove residency there? If I had known SUSI needed leases and utility bills I would have gone to the bother of getting them when I lived there but now my landlord isn't replying to texts, and wouldn't be the type to help an old tenant out...

Maybe I should scrap it and apply as a dependent student, even though I am not? I might have more of a chance. I'm down to my last few grand and really can't afford the €6000 or so of fees that are coming in September

runswithascript · 09-06-2015 1:17pm

You mention 2013 and 2014, please clarify, did you apply for the 2014 academic year or are you applying for 2015?

Red Soup · 09-06-2015 1:37pm

I'm applying for 2015, but they require proof of independent residency for 2013 (no later than October) and 2014

runswithascript · 09-06-2015 2:39pm

Red Soup wrote: »

I'm applying for 2015, but they require proof of independent residency for 2013 (no later than October) and 2014

When I applied there was no 'no later than', they told me they would only accept proof from within the month of October of the previous year. You may want to doublecheck that, though it probably has changed to what you said.

If I were you I would pay to get the documents translated and get as much as you can from your employer. Even if that takes time you could include them in one of the appeals. I was told they will not accept anything from a bank.

Keep trying your Landlord, go to to him if he will not help by phone.

Could you get letters from your parents? SUSI will not accept that normally though, I had to wait until appealing to the Department.

Do you not have to be resident here for a few years to apply?

Red Soup · 09-06-2015 2:51pm

Thanks. Yeah I will try to get those documents. I expect to fail anyway, but i'll try.

To qualify on residency you have to have been living in Ireland for 3 of the past 5 years. I have lived here in 2012, 2014 and 2015 (I'm an Irish citizen) so I should qualify.

Hollister11 · 09-06-2015 3:06pm

For proof of residency you should provide them with any letters/billed addressed to you within the last few years. Such a utility bills, revenue letters, social welfare letters.

Its the same as if your buying a bill pay phone, they require a recent bill addressed to you. Call your bank, and ask for a bank statement. That would have your name and address on the top right corner.

Sup08 · 09-06-2015 3:55pm

Hollister11 wrote: »

For proof of residency you should provide them with any letters/billed addressed to you within the last few years. Such a utility bills, revenue letters, social welfare letters.

Its the same as if your buying a bill pay phone, they require a recent bill addressed to you. Call your bank, and ask for a bank statement. That would have your name and address on the top right corner.

Bank statements are not accepted as proof unless it is related to the property, IE: a mortgage statement.

The 1st October prior to the year of entry is "from" and can be counted "up to" your point of entry.
Therefore in the example given above, 2014 year of entry, residence can be requested "from" October 2013 "up to" September 2014 under the Student Grant Scheme.

runswithascript · 09-06-2015 4:12pm

Sup08 wrote: »

The 1st October prior to the year of entry is "from" and can be counted "up to" your point of entry.
Therefore in the example given above, 2014 year of entry, residence can be requested "from" October 2013 "up to" September 2014 under the Student Grant Scheme.

Can you link to this? I have looked since my grant but could not find it. SUSI told me a few times over the phone the documents I needed had to be dated October of the year prior.

Sup08 · 09-06-2015 4:21pm

dusf wrote: »

Can you link to this? I have looked since my grant but could not find it. SUSI told me a few times over the phone the documents I needed had to be dated October of the year prior.

http://susi.ie/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Student-Grant-Scheme-2015_1.pdf

Section 13 Class of Applicant.

Cathy1985 · 10-06-2015 6:15pm

Hey. If your applying for 2015 why do you need proof for October 2013? Should it not be proof from October 2014 and 2015 (year of entry)

Sup08 · 10-06-2015 6:22pm

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Hey. If your applying for 2015 why do you need proof for October 2013? Should it not be proof from October 2014 and 2015 (year of entry)

The OP was for a 2014 year of entry.

Cathy1985 · 10-06-2015 6:36pm

What's OP sorry? ðŸ˜¨ I came up with a similar problem myself today, I got my list of documentation from SUSI which states I must send them proof of independent residency from (no later than October 2008) & 2009, however I think they made an error and it was meant to be (no later than October 2009) & 2010 as my first entry to higher education was in Sept 2010, would I be right?

Sup08 · 10-06-2015 8:10pm

Cathy1985 wrote: »

What's OP sorry?

OP = Original Post(er)

I came up with a similar problem myself today, I got my list of documentation from SUSI which states I must send them proof of independent residency from (no later than October 2008) & 2009, however I think they made an error and it was meant to be (no later than October 2009) & 2010 as my first entry to higher education was in Sept 2010, would I be right?

Can you just outline your course history by year?
Start dates of each year of all your studies, course type inclusive if you can.
You don't have to give exact details that may identify you.

Cathy1985 · 10-06-2015 8:16pm

I started a BA (Hons) social care practice on Sept 2010 - May 2014 straight level 8, no ladder programme I.e. no 6,7 previous. I was awarded a grant in 2010 and the whole way through college as an "independent mature student" will a letter from the county council that awarded thus suffice do you think? #head melted

Never mentioned - I'm entrying a masters this Sept. â˜º

Sup08 · 10-06-2015 8:20pm

Cathy1985 wrote: »

I started a BA (Hons) social care practice on Sept 2010 - May 2014 straight level 8, no ladder programme I.e. no 6,7 previous. I was awarded a grant in 2010 and the whole way through college as an "independent mature student" will a letter from the county council that awarded thus suffice do you think? #head melted

Never mentioned - I'm entrying a masters this Sept. â˜º

100%, if you have been previously classed by another awarding authority, you cannot change your class up or down unless you have a break of 3 years or more from your studies.

Changing Level does not matter and does not effect class, only from PLC to Undergraduate.

Cathy1985 · 10-06-2015 8:29pm

Great, thanks. Cause there is NO WAY I would have any utility bills from 2008, not that organised lol. I still dunno why they asked from October 2008, should of been October 2009.

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 9:42am

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Great, thanks. Cause there is NO WAY I would have any utility bills from 2008, not that organised lol. I still dunno why they asked from October 2008, should of been October 2009.

Were you receiving utility bills in 2008/09? Companies like Electric Ireland and Eircom etc will provide backdated bills once they had your names on the account at the time.

Cathy1985 · 11-06-2015 9:59am

Yea I would of had from October 2008 but I wouldn't have a clue what company I was with lol

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 10:13am

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Yea I would of had from October 2008 but I wouldn't have a clue what company I was with lol

Call them all and save whatever thousands the grant will afford you?

Cathy1985 · 11-06-2015 10:22am

What company's was there back in 2008 ðŸ˜†

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 10:38am

Cathy1985 wrote: »

What company's was there back in 2008 ðŸ˜†

ESB, Eircom etc. What kind of bills did you have, electric, phone, broadband, TV?

Cathy1985 · 11-06-2015 10:39am

Would of only been electricity at that time as I only moved in in the October 2008, But I rang the county council that awarded me my Grant through college as an independent student and their writing me a letter stating this so that should do, hopefully

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 11:02am

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Would of only been electricity at that time as I only moved in in the October 2008, But I rang the county council that awarded me my Grant through college as an independent student and their writing me a letter stating this so that should do, hopefully

If I were you I would include the letter from the council AND any bill you can get Electric Ireland, or whoever you were with, to print.

The trick here is too include as much as possible, better to include more than you need than less, see my experiencing above.

Cathy1985 · 11-06-2015 11:09am

Very True actually I'll get onto electric ireland now, thanks.

Cathy1985 · 11-06-2015 2:46pm

Also, I wasn't asked for a p60 or p21 is this normal? I'm thinking of just sending it in Nyways

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 3:40pm

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Also, I wasn't asked for a p60 or p21 is this normal? I'm thinking of just sending it in Nyways

I'd send in anything official like those if you have them, just make sure you are sending copies rather than the originals. And keeping the originals all stored away together so if you have to appeal you have them ready. I had to make three appeals but it was worth it in the end!

Sup08 · 11-06-2015 4:12pm

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Also, I wasn't asked for a p60 or p21 is this normal? I'm thinking of just sending it in Nyways

There is no need to submit any revenue documents as SUSI have direct links to both revenue and social welfare.

runswithascript · 11-06-2015 5:26pm

Sup08 wrote: »

There is no need to submit any revenue documents as SUSI have direct links to both revenue and social welfare.

I would not trust they would use those links, and submitting them cannot do any harm.

Sup08 · 11-06-2015 5:33pm

dusf wrote: »

I would not trust they would use those links, and submitting them cannot do any harm.

They use them for every person on every application.
Some people have several jobs and therfore only submit only 1 P60. The links would show all income and therefore a more definitive and factual result on a person's actual income.

Cathy1985 · 11-08-2015 6:48pm

Hey guys, just letting you know I got sorted with Hiccups â˜º fees has been awarded

runswithascript · 12-08-2015 11:12am

Cathy1985 wrote: »

Hey guys, just letting you know I got sorted with Hiccups â˜º fees has been awarded

Congratulations!

challengemaster · 12-08-2015 11:20am

Sup08 wrote: »

Bank statements are not accepted as proof unless it is related to the property, IE: a mortgage statement.

That's.... interesting, considering bank statements are acceptable proof of address when applying for a passport - a much more important application.

dfa.ie wrote:

Proof of address
An original document showing proof of your address, such as a utility bill, bank statement or official correspondence from a public or private sector organisation.

lisacj · 05-10-2015 1:27pm

Just wondering what documentation they accepted in the end?

lisacj · 05-10-2015 1:39pm

Hi, I am in a similar situation this year. I don't have a utility bill for the period SUSI requires.

I lived in a house with my landlord, I didn't have a PRTB lease.

Where did you get your lease from? you mention a shop?

Sorry for all the questions, I am at my wits end dealing with SUSI

runswithascript · 11-10-2015 6:11pm

lisacj wrote: »

Hi, I am in a similar situation this year. I don't have a utility bill for the period SUSI requires.

I lived in a house with my landlord, I didn't have a PRTB lease.

Where did you get your lease from? you mention a shop?

Sorry for all the questions, I am at my wits end dealing with SUSI

Hi Lisa

Sorry I missed your first post here, back to college at the end of August so things have been hectic.

I had thought the lease was purchased in a shop but the landlord just told me you buy them in some court near the Four Courts, but they could not provide the name. They think they are about €5 a lease.

Please let me know if I can help with anything else, I will be keep and eye our for thread updates.

lisacj · 11-10-2015 9:25pm

dusf wrote: »

Hi Lisa

Sorry I missed your first post here, back to college at the end of August so things have been hectic.

I had thought the lease was purchased in a shop but the landlord just told me you buy them in some court near the Four Courts, but they could not provide the name. They think they are about €5 a lease.

Please let me know if I can help with anything else, I will be keep and eye our for thread updates.

Thanks for getting back to me. I wonder will SUSI accept leases now, website seems to say specifically
"A letter confirming that this address is registered with the PRTB(Private Residential
Tenancies Board)
A Local Authority Lease Agreement, for example, under the Rental Accommodation
Scheme, (RAS)"

uck51js9zml2yt · 11-10-2015 10:03pm

dusf wrote: »

Hi Lisa

Sorry I missed your first post here, back to college at the end of August so things have been hectic.

I had thought the lease was purchased in a shop but the landlord just told me you buy them in some court near the Four Courts, but they could not provide the name. They think they are about €5 a lease.

Please let me know if I can help with anything else, I will be keep and eye our for thread updates.

There is a stationary business up Bridgeford St that does legal documents.
I can't think of its name but its on the right just past the lighting shop and Brazen Head

runswithascript · 13-10-2015 4:39pm

lisacj wrote: »

Thanks for getting back to me. I wonder will SUSI accept leases now, website seems to say specifically
"A letter confirming that this address is registered with the PRTB(Private Residential
Tenancies Board)
A Local Authority Lease Agreement, for example, under the Rental Accommodation
Scheme, (RAS)"

They must have changed it, it definitely gave lease as an example before. My advice would be to submit anything and everything you can.

lisacj · 13-10-2015 9:13pm

dusf wrote: »

They must have changed it, it definitely gave lease as an example before. My advice would be to submit anything and everything you can.

Thanks, thats what I have been doing. I just keep getting letters back looking for a utility with my name on it! I am waiting on vodafone to send me out old bills as I may have had fixed broadband at the address I lived in the year prior to starting back to college. Vodafone are not very helpful as it is a good few years ago now, but fingers crossed.

Other than that I am stumped. Did the appeal process take long? Will they let me appeal if they haven't really accpeted my appliacation yet as I have not submitted the required documents?

runswithascript · 13-10-2015 9:18pm

lisacj wrote: »

Thanks, thats what I have been doing. I just keep getting letters back looking for a utility with my name on it! I am waiting on vodafone to send me out old bills as I may have had fixed broadband at the address I lived in the year prior to starting back to college. Vodafone are not very helpful as it is a good few years ago now, but fingers crossed.

Yeah, this is the sort of thing you have to do. Can you not remember if you had fixed broadband a few years ago? :P Keep calling vodafone, go to a store, if you live near Dublin go to their main offices in Stillorgan - give the appeal everything. Any other bills you might have had in your name?

lisacj wrote: »

Other than that I am stumped. Did the appeal process take long?

I think it took a month or two for each appeal to come back, I think I went through four appeals in all.

lisacj wrote: »

Will they let me appeal if they haven't really accpeted my appliacation yet as I have not submitted the required documents?

Hmm, I do not think you can appeal until your application is rejected but you should confirm that with SUSI to be sure.

lisacj · 13-10-2015 9:59pm

I'm not 100% sure if it was mobile broadband or fixed as I had both around that time. Vodafone said I would receive my old bills in post today or tomorrow so fingers crossed.

Sup08 · 14-10-2015 1:28am

challengemaster wrote: »

That's.... interesting, considering bank statements are acceptable proof of address when applying for a passport - a much more important application.

This is only for proof of current address and is in relation to proof of independence set out in the scheme.
Every Irish citizen is entitled to a passport and no person is entitled to a grant but they must prove they are eligible.

lisacj · 15-10-2015 1:32pm

dusf wrote: »

Yeah, this is the sort of thing you have to do. Can you not remember if you had fixed broadband a few years ago? :P Keep calling vodafone, go to a store, if you live near Dublin go to their main offices in Stillorgan - give the appeal everything. Any other bills you might have had in your name?

So vodafone got back to me. They have no record of me having broadband back then (despite me having my customer number etc) as they delete all records of old accounts after a few years. I even spoke to a manager, no joy.

I definitely didn't have any other bills in my name back then.

Really not sure what to do now.

runswithascript · 15-10-2015 8:20pm

lisacj wrote: »

So vodafone got back to me. They have no record of me having broadband back then (despite me having my customer number etc) as they delete all records of old accounts after a few years. I even spoke to a manager, no joy.

I definitely didn't have any other bills in my name back then.

Really not sure what to do now.

Any progress with the lease? Since you were asking where to buy one can I take it you are on good terms with the landlord, and they are willing to draft the lease, or even better supply you with the original (or a copy?)

Also, if you are on good terms with them, perhaps they would write you a letter declaring you were a tenant of theirs?

Have you anything else with your address on it from that time? Submit things even if they are not requested by SUSI.

SUSI refusing lease as proof of residency (despite asking for one!)

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