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Irish Water

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    #122
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    If lots of people in North County Dublin don't get Irish Water packs - we know why ...
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82128129


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    #123
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    Staff don't have the authority to do that ,you would get fired.Its an order from higher up the food chain and An Post are just trying to avoid a train wreck later on.Do me a favour and go get a payslip ,gas bill ,electric bill,UPC bill ,tax demand,etc, etc ,etc,.Do you notice something?Thats right,they all have a NAME on them.So instead of having a go at An Post why not have a go at IW for trying to bill people with no name!Good look with chasing "MR Occupier" through the courts for payment IW:rolleyes:

    These aren't bills.

    I'd prefer if An Post didn't speculate what the content of my post was either. If you're going to deliver ANY post to "the occupier" deliver ALL of it.


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    #124
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Ogham wrote: »
    If lots of people in North County Dublin don't get Irish Water packs - we know why ...
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=82128129

    I take offence to that and have reported you,comments border on libelous.


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    #125
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    ben101 wrote: »
    I take offence to that and have reported you,comments border on libelous.

    I was just assuming any info you had about non delivery would relate to the area of the country you work in.


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    #126
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    These aren't bills.

    I'd prefer if An Post didn't speculate what the content of my post was either. If you're going to deliver ANY post to "the occupier" deliver ALL of it.
    So you dont mind if you get your post at 8 pm at night because the postie has 300+ registered items?Not thinking ahead is why this country is in a mess,we always have to do things arseways.Do you really think people are going to pay it if their names not on it?You would rather see the postal system in a mess because IW couldn't be bothered setting things up properly.No company would set themselves up for a fall like that so An Post are no different.They are not bills but they sure as well will be and we all know it so it makes sense to have a name on them otherwise you are going to have a system where a large section of people won't have to pay because of a loop hole and thats not right either.


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    #127
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Ogham wrote: »
    I was just assuming any info you had about non delivery would relate to the area of the country you work in.

    That post was in relation to theft ,thought you were implying something dodgy.Area has nothing to do with it ,as far as i know that directive would have gone out to all offices.Contrary to some comments staff would rather deliver them ,its quicker than having to send them back.
    This post is getting out of hand and off topic.I mentioned it because i thought it was interesting as to how IW would charge people without having a name but its become an An Post bashing post.Any views to why letters would be sent back are purely my own theories so please bear that in mind ,could be a different reason entirely.


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    #128
    BonkeyDonker
    Registered Users Posts: 571 ✭✭✭BonkeyDonker


    ben101 wrote: »
    Staff don't have the authority to do that ,you would get fired.Its an order from higher up the food chain and An Post are just trying to avoid a train wreck later on.Do me a favour and go get a payslip ,gas bill ,electric bill,UPC bill ,tax demand,etc, etc ,etc,.Do you notice something?Thats right,they all have a NAME on them.So instead of having a go at An Post why not have a go at IW for trying to bill people with no name!Good look with chasing "MR Occupier" through the courts for payment IW:rolleyes:

    My TV Liscence - a bill in my mind - has until recently been addressed to the occupier. And they are not only delivered by, but originate from AnPost??


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    #129
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,278 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    ben101 wrote: »
    What will happen is IW will come looking for their money by registered letter eventually ,logistically it would grind down the postal system to a crawl,Instead of getting a handful of reg a day you could be getting several hundred ,most of which will be refused and would cost An Post to cover OT for staff.
    It's what, €5 to register a letter? Are you saying a few hundred x €5 wouldn't be worth their while?
    You have a name on every utility bill so why should IW be different?
    Because they don't have everyone's name?


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    #130
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    ben101 wrote: »
    You can't set up a billing system sending out en masse without names of the people who will pay the bill ,thats just crazy.What will happen is IW will come looking for their money by registered letter eventually ,logistically it would grind down the postal system to a crawl,Instead of getting a handful of reg a day you could be getting several hundred ,most of which will be refused and would cost An Post to cover OT for staff.Imagine if you had to get a signature for 2 or 3 hundred gas bills on your route of 800 or so houses and fill in dockets for those that you couldn't get an answer!You have a name on every utility bill so why should IW be different?

    As it happens, the majority of the letters are addressed as they are using the various databases. The ones that are likely to be to The Occupant are apartments etc. In any case the purpose of the letter is to facilitate the occupant to create an account.

    There is absolutely no reason why An Post wouldn't be delivering them unless postal workers are doing solo runs.

    Having said that, I'm still waiting for my pack whatever way it's addressed. The meter is in the ground a few weeks now.


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    #131
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Victor wrote: »
    It's what, €5 to register a letter? Are you saying a few hundred x €5 wouldn't be worth their while?

    Because they don't have everyone's name?

    Your missing the point Victor,if it got to that stage it would cost into the millions to post them which me and you will be paying for and which will achieve nothing because people wont sign for an unnamed item which could lead to a court appearance,total waste of time and money.


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    #132
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    ben101 wrote: »
    Your missing the point Victor,if it got to that stage it would cost into the millions to post them which me and you will be paying for and which will achieve nothing because people wont sign for an unnamed item which could lead to a court appearance,total waste of time and money.

    I think we all get the point you are making - but it still doesn't mean that AN Post officially won't deliver them.
    It can't be official policy - if it is .. then there are worse things going on in Ireland than Irish Water asking for PPSNs


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    #133
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    Your missing the point Victor,if it got to that stage it would cost into the millions to post them which me and you will be paying for and which will achieve nothing because people wont sign for an unnamed item which could lead to a court appearance,total waste of time and money.

    Where has it ever been said that they'll send registered letters to The Occupier? You are imagining scenarios as excuses


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    #134
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    Where has it ever been said that they'll send registered letters to The Occupier? You are imagining scenarios as excuses

    What do you think IW Will do when they come looking for money?Reg letters might scare a few people into paying, if you believe the media reports there seems little they can do except turn the pressure down.


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    #135
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    What do you think IW Will do when they come looking for money?Reg letters might scare a few people into paying, if you believe the media reports there seems little they can do except turn the pressure down.

    So nowhere, then.


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    #136
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    So nowhere, then.

    When you don't pay a bill after a while you will get a reg letter as a precursor to legal proceedings ,because of the relatively large amount with no names on them there will be quite a few reg sent eventually.Either they chase the money or turn the water down.They aren't just going to say "ah feckit ,sure we tried,just give them the water for free".


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    #137
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    When you don't pay a bill after a while you will get a reg letter as a precursor to legal proceedings ,because of the relatively large amount with no names on them there will be quite a few reg sent eventually.Either they chase the money or turn the water down.They aren't just going to say "ah feckit ,sure we tried,just give them the water for free".

    None of that suggests they'll be sending registered letters to unnamed people. You're guessing and nothing more


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    #138
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    MYOB wrote: »
    None of that suggests they'll be sending registered letters to unnamed people. You're guessing and nothing more

    :rolleyes:Jesus wept,unless they get paid they will take some kind of action,registered letters is normallly one of the most common ways companies use,seen it many times before to know how the system works,unless you are suggesting nothing will happen which would be very strange.IW will be looking for money come january ,you tell me how else they are going to pursue bills with no names on them?


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    #139
    L1011
    Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 67,818 Mod ✭✭✭✭L1011


    ben101 wrote: »
    :rolleyes:Jesus wept,unless they get paid they will take some kind of action,registered letters is normallly one of the most common ways companies use,seen it many times before to know how the system works,unless you are suggesting nothing will happen which would be very strange.IW will be looking for money come january ,you tell me how else they are going to pursue bills with no names on them?

    They're not going to start scattergunning registered letters to "the occupant", that's for sure - despite whatever you've convinced yourself.

    There are zero reasons for An Post to refuse to deliver some post to "the occupant" until they refuse to deliver all of it. The contents are irrelevant. What a customer of theirs may pay them to do in the future (or more likely, won't) is irrelevant.

    I suspect An Post are likely in breach of their PSO if they're refusing to deliver in this case.


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    #140
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    IW will have a problem with people who don't respond - but (unless their systems are rubbish) they will first attempt to find out who owns the property.
    They can't really bill "occupier"
    The majority of "occupier" letters will have gone to a) houses they know are rented out but they don't know who the tenant is or b) houses where no one has paid LPT.

    They will probably first send another "pack" out and then -if still no reponse they will somehow find out who owns the house. Owners are assumed to be the occupiers (in the Water Services Act 2013 Part 2). They have powers to check with ESB, Revenue, Councils - and more.
    Once they find the owner - they will bill them.
    No one can have an excuse that they didn't know they had to pay - there's ads all over the internet, Twitter , TV , Radio.


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    #141
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Ogham wrote: »
    IW will have a problem with people who don't respond - but (unless their systems are rubbish) they will first attempt to find out who owns the property.
    They can't really bill "occupier"
    The majority of "occupier" letters will have gone to a) houses they know are rented out but they don't know who the tenant is or b) houses where no one has paid LPT.

    They will probably first send another "pack" out and then -if still no reponse they will somehow find out who owns the house. Owners are assumed to be the occupiers (in the Water Services Act 2013 Part 2). They have powers to check with ESB, Revenue, Councils - and more.
    Once they find the owner - they will bill them.
    No one can have an excuse that they didn't know they had to pay - there's ads all over the internet, Twitter , TV , Radio.
    Okay,that makes a lot more sense,The liability of the bill was bugging me,especially with rented ,sub letting and so on.Bit surprised in the amount of packs with no name,especially in council run houses roughly 25-35% in one particular area.Leaves a lot of tracking down owners to do.


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    #142
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    ben101 wrote: »
    Okay,that makes a lot more sense,The liability of the bill was bugging me,especially with rented ,sub letting and so on.Bit surprised in the amount of packs with no name,especially in council run houses roughly 25-35% in one particular area.Leaves a lot of tracking down owners to do.

    Council Houses .. - finding the owner there will be easy and therefore the occupier.


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    #143
    GerardKeating
    Registered Users Posts: 7,538 ✭✭✭GerardKeating


    ben101 wrote: »
    .Leaves a lot of tracking down owners to do.

    Do they need to track down the owner, is not the tenant (ie the person who used the water) is liable, not the owner.


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    #144
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    GerardKeating wrote: »
    Do they need to track down the owner, is not the tenant (ie the person who used the water) is liable, not the owner.

    The legislation states that the owner is assumed to be the occupier unless proven otherwise.
    If they get no response from a tenant they will go after the owner.


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    #145
    SPDUB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,335 ✭✭✭SPDUB


    MYOB wrote: »
    They're not going to start scattergunning registered letters to "the occupant", that's for sure - despite whatever you've convinced yourself.

    There are zero reasons for An Post to refuse to deliver some post to "the occupant" until they refuse to deliver all of it. The contents are irrelevant. What a customer of theirs may pay them to do in the future (or more likely, won't) is irrelevant.

    I suspect An Post are likely in breach of their PSO if they're refusing to deliver in this case.

    Checked with a CWU official I know and he says there is no restrictions on them being delivered whether they are addressed to a named person or "the occupant"


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    #146
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,278 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    SPDUB wrote: »
    Checked with a CWU official I know and he says there is no restrictions on them being delivered whether they are addressed to a named person or "the occupant"
    Indeed, I got this on Friday.

    323422.JPG


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    #147
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    I'd imagine there's some leeway for a postman to not deliver letters,
    If they had lots of letters for
    the Occupant,
    Derrydonnel West,
    Oranmore,
    Co. Galway
    These would be undeliverable, as there's about 200 houses in Derrydonnel West.

    There's a kickback to An Post for each license fee collected, so there'd be no issue delivering tv license demands
    And supposing the post person thinks the water charges are
    Morally unjust and unfair
    And are allowed make a judgement call on whether the post is addressed correctly, then you can easily see a situation where IW letters to the Occupier are returned to sender


    If the postman knows there's no "prince Hans, 'of the Western Isnes'l living in Derrydonell West, then he can ignore letters addressed to a fictional person and return them to sender

    Likewise if the post person knows Olaf die SchneeMann lives at 8 pimlico, D8,
    Why would they deliver a letter to the occupier?


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    #148
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,278 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    Why would they deliver a letter to the occupier?
    Because they are legally obliged to. That letter is the property of the occupier of that premises an An Post (and by implication, their staff) are obliged to deliver the post.


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    #149
    ben101
    Registered Users Posts: 445 ✭✭ben101


    Victor wrote: »
    Indeed, I got this on Friday.

    323422.JPG

    As i said in a previous post a lot of staff are just delivering them despite being told to send them back as it takes less time.As for the CWU rep its not a union matter so if he is not delivery staff he proabably wouldn't know anything about it.


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    #150
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    I'd imagine there's some leeway for a postman to not deliver letters,
    If they had lots of letters for
    the Occupant,
    Derrydonnel West,
    Oranmore,
    Co. Galway
    These would be undeliverable, as there's about 200 houses in Derrydonnel West.

    There's a kickback to An Post for each license fee collected, so there'd be no issue delivering tv license demands
    And supposing the post person thinks the water charges are
    Morally unjust and unfair
    And are allowed make a judgement call on whether the post is addressed correctly, then you can easily see a situation where IW letters to the Occupier are returned to sender


    If the postman knows there's no "prince Hans, 'of the Western Isnes'l living in Derrydonell West, then he can ignore letters addressed to a fictional person and return them to sender

    Likewise if the post person knows Olaf die SchneeMann lives at 8 pimlico, D8,
    Why would they deliver a letter to the occupier?

    The reality is that IW are working off a property database - LPT and others. Sol like most utilities, they'll have the address but may not have the name of the person at that address. So the scenario you describe is unlikely.


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    #151
    Five Lamps
    Closed Accounts Posts: 687 ✭✭✭Five Lamps


    ben101 wrote: »
    As i said in a previous post a lot of staff are just delivering them despite being told to send them back as it takes less time..

    Who has told them? As already described, there is no logical reason for them to be returned.


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