National Postcodes to be introduced

larchill · 10-09-2014 9:43am

Ah thank goodness all that tit-for-tatting of the past few days has faded away. eircodes will be coming whether ye all like it or not. Bear in mind that this whole postcode issue was driven by business & comercial interests together with the arrival of location technology, namely satnavs & internet mapping, mainly Google maps. This highlighted the need for a code of some sort especially when the usefulness of the UK postcodes for this purpose became evident. Then you have the fact that 40% of our addresses are non unique & rather something of a mess. A unique code for each address is an obvious & relatively easy solution & beats having to take on the mammoth task of naming every road & numbering houses! The Geodirectory is already available & contains details of every address & is based upon Osi locational & An Post operational data. Every address has a 'technical code' which is not suitable for general every day use - hence the need for the derivation of the eircode. It mightn't be perfect but its certainly better than nothing & will be an enhancement on what we have at present. Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

flutered · 10-09-2014 9:49am

larchill wrote: »

Ah thank goodness all that tit-for-tatting of the past few days has faded away. eircodes will be coming whether ye all like it or not. Bear in mind that this whole postcode issue was driven by business & comercial interests together with the arrival of location technology, namely satnavs & internet mapping, mainly Google maps. This highlighted the need for a code of some sort especially when the usefulness of the UK postcodes for this purpose became evident. Then you have the fact that 40% of our addresses are non unique & rather something of a mess. A unique code for each address is an obvious & relatively easy solution & beats having to take on the mammoth task of naming every road & numbering houses! The Geodirectory is already available & contains details of every address & is based upon Osi locational & An Post operational data. Every address has a 'technical code' which is not suitable for general every day use - hence the need for the derivation of the eircode. It mightn't be perfect but its certainly better than nothing & will be an enhancement on what we have at present. Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

to me the abouve is similar to a press release, btw, i have no interest either way, except for the hugue cost of it.

Tow · 10-09-2014 10:27am

larchill wrote: »

Loc8Code appears to be better & perhaps more easily understood but it requires users to click on a map & obtain a code which may not be accurate. Maybe this process could be automated - a lookup using the geolocational data in the Geodirectory perhaps? Anyway eircodes here we come ...:D

Very simple, just add a new field to the address table to the Geo Directory and run the Loc8 algorithm against the existing coordinates in the same table. In fact you do not even need to add a field, the Loc8 can be generated on the fly.
If An Post decide they don't want to do it, outsource the job and future maintenance to the LGCSB. The LGCSB have plenty of experience in this area and did a good in cleaning up the electrical register for the country.

antoinolachtnai · 11-09-2014 12:38am

What is the electrical register?

The LGCSB is long gone.

larchill · 11-09-2014 9:30am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

What is the electrical register?

The LGCSB is long gone.

I think he means Electoral Register

LGCSB = Local Government Computer Services Board? What has replaced the LGCSB?

SpaceTime · 11-09-2014 9:33am

I like that slogan :

Eircode - it's coming whether you like it or not!

Also the name sound like it's an eircom connected thing. Poor choice of tm.

recedite · 11-09-2014 10:01am

larchill wrote: »

I think he means Electoral Register LGCSB = Local Government Computer Services Board? What has replaced the LGCSB?

The "electrical register" would presumably be the MPRN database. A list of addresses, each with a unique identifier reference number. Very like an eircode actually.

LGCSB has probably been outsourced or renamed, but the point...

Very simple, just add a new field to the address table to the Geo Directory and run the Loc8 algorithm against the existing coordinates in the same table. In fact you do not even need to add a field, the Loc8 can be generated on the fly.

...is still valid. This would give every house an official code for taxation purposes, while still allowing people to generate new or temporary codes themselves for places such as building sites, hotel back entrances, forest car parks, harbours, piers, etc..

antoinolachtnai · 11-09-2014 10:06am

The MPRN database has never had anything at all to do with the LGSCB. The electoral register is a disaster from top to bottom and a model for nothing.

ukoda · 11-09-2014 10:20am

antoinolachtnai wrote: »

The MPRN database has never had anything at all to do with the LGSCB. The electoral register is a disaster from top to bottom and a model for nothing.

Yes, The MPRN datbase has nothing to do with any government services and isnt suitable for that purpose

MPRN's are Meter Point Reference Numbers, so they apply to anywhere that has a meter, so there could be multiple MPRN's associated with a single property if they have more than one meter, or there could just be a single one for multiple properties if they dont have their own meter (e.g. a house converted to flats but kept a single meter) MPRN's are assigned to public lighting points, landlord supplies in apartment blocks (for corridoor ligths/lifts)etc, they are just a list of anywhere a meter exisits.

they are not assigned to the Geo Directory nor have they any link to that address stucture

ozmo · 15-09-2014 5:48am

So - small update in IT today.

Wonder what kind of law they can be thinking for the data protection issue? Maybe have an optout ex-directory option?

Interesting also the IT note the concern over the lack of its usefulness for geolocation(ie. gps devices etc)....

IrishTimesToday wrote:

“The postcodes project is expected to cost around €16 million, as it is developed and rolled out over the next two years, and there will be a cost of about €1.2 million a year for the remainder of the 10-year licence,” it states.

The briefing does note that the Data Protection Commissioner’s Office has had “some concerns”, but department officials have assured Mr White the concerns are being addressed. Concerns have also been expressed that the system chosen is not as ambitious as the one envisaged in 2005.

There have been claims of a lack of geolocation capabilities, which will render the system of limited use to services other than the postal services, including freight operators.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-confident-new-postcode-system-will-be-introduced-early-next-year-1.1928738

ukoda · 15-09-2014 10:05am

ozmo wrote: »

So - small update in IT today.

Wonder what kind of law they can be thinking for the data protection issue? Maybe have an optout ex-directory option?

Interesting also the IT note the concern over the lack of its usefulness for geolocation(ie. gps devices etc)....

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/minister-confident-new-postcode-system-will-be-introduced-early-next-year-1.1928738

bit of a non story though - the Irish Times are just referencing historical stuff thats already been discussed here, they simply say "there have been claims" we already new that, doesn't mean they are valid claims, not much new here

In regards the law change - i suspect its to do with companies not being allowed store the code and use it for marketing unless they have consent

my3cents · 15-09-2014 10:57am

ukoda wrote: »

bit of a non story though - the Irish Times are just referencing historical stuff thats already been discussed here, they simply say "there have been claims" we already new that, doesn't mean they are valid claims, not much new here

In regards the law change - i suspect its to do with companies not being allowed store the code and use it for marketing unless they have consent

Probably to stop someone compiling their own database of all the codes and selling it cheaper than the official db?

I wonder how long it will be before I can download a good chunk of the database from a torrent site?

ukoda · 15-09-2014 11:10am

my3cents wrote: »

Probably to stop someone compiling their own database of all the codes and selling it cheaper than the official db?

I wonder how long it will be before I can download a good chunk of the database from a torrent site?

thats a very good point actually! and it will be impossible to stop really

if we are able to torrent it - will someone send it on to Garmin and TomTom? rumour has it they can't afford it :P

Curly Judge · 24-09-2014 8:20am

http://technology.ie/new-post-code-system-another-fiasco

Another illuminative report!
If and when this goes belly-up the people involved will have nowhere to hide.
They can't say they weren't warned

SpaceTime · 24-09-2014 8:37am

It's like an episode of Yes Minister.
It would be funny if it didn't involve a vast waste of public money.

They seem determined to drive this system through no matter how pointless it might be.

my3cents · 24-09-2014 9:01am

Curly Judge wrote: »

http://technology.ie/new-post-code-system-another-fiasco

Another illuminative report!
If and when this goes belly-up the people involved will have nowhere to hide.
They can't say they weren't warned

Another sour grapes Loc8 story, I doubt it will be the last. No new information we already knew that Loc8 had been excluded, tough luck bad decision but too late to change it now.

Curly Judge · 24-09-2014 10:34am

my3cents wrote: »

Another sour grapes Loc8 story, I doubt it will be the last. No new information we already knew that Loc8 had been excluded, tough luck bad decision but too late to change it now.

You are obviously very easily pleased.
I would love to sell you my second hand car!

my3cents · 24-09-2014 11:05am

Curly Judge wrote: »

You are obviously very easily pleased.
I would love to sell you my second hand car!

Its taken this long to get something that might not be ideal but I don't see any point in dragging it out even further.

tvc15 · 24-09-2014 11:15am

my3cents wrote: »

Its taken this long to get something that might not be ideal but I don't see any point in dragging it out even further.

But what about all of >my< ideas that weren't implemented? We have to go back to the drawing board or it will be a disaster! Have you not heard what the independent experts from loc8, the trucking industry and their representatives on boards have had to say? Apparently it will be a massive failure!

ukoda · 24-09-2014 11:19am

tvc15 wrote: »

But what about all of >my< ideas that weren't implemented? We have to go back to the drawing board or it will be a disaster! Have you not heard what the independent experts from loc8, the trucking industry and their representatives on boards have had to say? Apparently it will be a massive failure!

you could hardly call Loc8 "independant" they have a vested interest in rubbishing Eircode.

The main gripe the trucking industry have is that they've to pay for it (boohoo), the other issues they have are pretty invalid.

Sam Russell · 24-09-2014 11:39am

The main gripe about Eirecode is that it is a poorly thought out system that will fail. However, if it fails early enough, it can easily be replaced by a better system since all the heavy lifting will have been done. All addresses will have been identified with location codes (longditude, lattitudes) so replacing the poorly designed random numbers with a well designed system will be straightforward.

We still need unique addresses though which is not in the plan.

tvc15 · 24-09-2014 12:00pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

The main gripe about Eirecode is that it is a poorly thought out system that will fail. However, if it fails early enough, it can easily be replaced by a better system since all the heavy lifting will have been done. All addresses will have been identified with location codes (longditude, lattitudes) so replacing the poorly designed random numbers with a well designed system will be straightforward.

We still need unique addresses though which is not in the plan.

That heavy lifting was done completely separately before Eircode assigned their random numbers so I wouldn't give them any credit for that.

I would argue that the code (despite it's issues) will not fail. How would it's failure be measured? The government will use it and require it for all interactions. That alone will keep it alive to some degree. Then you have Rural addresses which are impossible to find, it is very useful for that so it will be used (the loc8 code is equally useful but has probably failed at this point) they will keep the usage alive further

It will be the official post code and if you want delivery guaranteed even from the trucking industry you will include your postcode.

Will people bitch and moan like they always do? Of course!

Will the code fail because of the moaners and a few vested interests? Very unlikely!

You have to define what it means to fail and it seems here that people will declare it a failure if they don't see it as perfect or if their employer says it's too expensive, that's not enough to kill off a national postcode. At the end of the day it will be used

Sam Russell · 24-09-2014 12:26pm

tvc15 wrote: »

You have to define what it means to fail and it seems here that people will declare it a failure if they don't see it as perfect or if their employer says it's too expensive, that's not enough to kill off a national postcode. At the end of the day it will be used

I see the furore about Irish Water looking for PPS numbers. I see a general election coming. I see the postcode being another nail in the coffin of this Government, so I see this as a possible reverse to save themselves. The late Seamus Brennan scrapped the whole system of road signs for Dublin just after they were installed, and demanded a redesign. Do not forget, Alex White is a new minister with ambition.

tvc15 · 24-09-2014 12:46pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I see the furore about Irish Water looking for PPS numbers. I see a general election coming. I see the postcode being another nail in the coffin of this Government, so I see this as a possible reverse to save themselves. The late Seamus Brennan scrapped the whole system of road signs for Dublin just after they were installed, and demanded a redesign. Do not forget, Alex White is a new minister with ambition.

So you're likening additional taxation and money out of people's pockets with a new postcode? And your hope is what? That we pay off capita, re-tender and end up paying a new set of consultants (or the same) to make yet another code at a huge cost to the Irish tax payer? Or do you hope that we do away with the idea of a postcode all together?

Curly Judge · 24-09-2014 12:49pm

ukoda wrote: »

you could hardly call Loc8 "independant" they have a vested interest in rubbishing Eircode.

The main gripe the trucking industry have is that they've to pay for it (boohoo), the other issues they have are pretty invalid.

Will the Irish Ambulance and Civil Defence use it?
Will they have to pay for it out of their budget?
Will the profits on their fees go to the English company?

tvc15 · 24-09-2014 1:16pm

Curly Judge wrote: »

Will the Irish Ambulance and Civil Defence use it?
Will they have to pay for it out of their budget?
Will the profits on their fees go to the English company?

Why do you care where the company is based? You know the ambulances and a lot of the medical equipment is made out of the state!?!! The emergency services will use the code, if they are just putting it into Google maps or a GPS then they won't pay directly but I'm not sure how their systems work at the moment.

In my opinion, if they were to improve response times and reduce inefficient use of emergency services then it is a good thing. Again, loc8 would have done the same but they didn't win the tender so that's settled

larchill · 24-09-2014 1:46pm

So after over a week of silence (which was deafening!) the tit-for-tat is off again

& all because someone read a piece somewhere ... eircode's the one its too far gone now to retrench. Capita have been engaged & in 2015 every address will have a unique code. Its still an improvement on the present situation where 40% of addresses (mainly rural & villages) are non unique. Loc8 technically is a good solution but its not a publicly owned solution. Nor would it use the existing postal districts in Dublin (D1 to D24). In every place postcodes used the existing postal district system where these previously existed. In the UK, the London districts: W1, EC1, etc became W1 XXX, Manchester 1 became M1 XXX. Even in France, Paris 6 became 75006 where 75 is the no for Paris in the national 5 digit postcode system. Same with eircode Dublin 1 will become D01 A2BCD, etc. International practice has always used the existing postal districts where they exist.

Carawaystick · 24-09-2014 5:13pm

larchill wrote: »

In every place postcodes used the existing postal district system where these previously existed..

Some one I know in Luxemburg emailed me last month to tell me their new postcode, all 4 digits are different to their previous one; for the same house.

yuloni · 24-09-2014 8:35pm

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TheBustedFlush · 24-09-2014 8:54pm

tvc15 wrote: »

Again, loc8 would have done the same but they didn't win the tender so that's settled

They decided not to tender. It was possible to assemble a consortium with one big company with sufficient turnover e.g. a satnav partner such as Garmin and had a smaller number of SMEs for other tasks and put forward a valid bid under the terms of the tender - which said that any company owning/earning less than 25% of the total contract value in first year (€16m approx) could be included. The postcode design/database bit was worth a max of €2m.

This is effectively what their competitor Go Code did - and they won.

yuloni · 24-09-2014 9:05pm

This post has been deleted.

TheBustedFlush · 24-09-2014 9:16pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

And you think that's why they won the tender? Because one of their team was a member of a postcode working group 7/8 years ago? Utter rubbish.

yuloni · 24-09-2014 10:56pm

This post has been deleted.

TheBustedFlush · 24-09-2014 11:05pm

yuloni wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok. That says a lot more about you than it does about them, though.

larchill · 24-09-2014 11:10pm

Ah that'll do now no more tit-for-tatting!

TheBustedFlush · 24-09-2014 11:15pm

larchill wrote: »

Ah that'll do now no more tit-for-tatting!

Ok dad. lol

yuloni · 24-09-2014 11:35pm

This post has been deleted.

ozmo · 25-09-2014 4:58am

A doc posted a few pages back said AnPost were in the running with their own postcode.

What system where they proposing that got turned down would anyone know?

my3cents · 25-09-2014 8:57am

ozmo wrote: »

A doc posted a few pages back said AnPost were in the running with their own postcode.

What system where they proposing that got turned down would anyone know?

afaik Anpost don't need postcodes they only need to get the post to the post office that covers the area the post is delivered to, the postman and local knowledge then take over.

In fact AnPost addresses aren't always real addresses. We can't use our actual address if we want mail delivered on time because we have to include the area of the postal route in the address otherwise our mail goes to the wrong post office and then gets redirected.

ozmo · 25-09-2014 11:11am

my3cents wrote: »

afaik Anpost don't need postcodes

...but...yet we can see AnPost were in the competition to design the new postcodes- but their design lost- I was wondering what system they were proposing.

tvc15 · 25-09-2014 12:47pm

ozmo wrote: »

...but...yet we can see AnPost were in the competition to design the new postcodes- but their design lost- I was wondering what system they were proposing.

Whatever it was I'm sure that there would be endless complaints here due to it not being the loc8 code

yuloni · 25-09-2014 6:22pm

This post has been deleted.

tvc15 · 26-09-2014 7:22am

yuloni wrote: »

At least if An Post's submission did won, they would not have their shareholders desperately trolling on a public forum - unlike the Tico/Capita/Strand cronies

For the record I don't personally like the Eircode, I don't think its the best solution for Ireland and many of the suggested codes here would be better

My argument is that it is finalized now, it's workable and is far better than nothing

Curly Judge · 26-09-2014 9:13am

tvc15 wrote: »

For the record I don't personally like the Eircode, I don't think its the best solution for Ireland and many of the suggested codes here would be better

My argument is that it is finalized now, it's workable and is far better than nothing

Better than nothing?
Isn't that really the story of Ireland?
Our squabbling Chieftains have let us down again!
Just like 1169...the local baldies were so busy fighting over a comb that they had to invite in a foreigner to do what they should have been well able to do themselves.

larchill · 26-09-2014 9:52am

1169?

my3cents · 26-09-2014 10:08am

Curly Judge wrote: »

[/U][/I][/B]

Better than nothing?
Isn't that really the story of Ireland?
Our squabbling Chieftains have let us down again!
Just like 1169...the local baldies were so busy fighting over a comb that they had to invite in a foreigner to do what they should have been well able to do themselves.

I think the squabbling Chieftains are the ones posting here that didn't get the contract and now want to derail Eirecode.

my3cents · 26-09-2014 10:13am

Anyone know if the Garda will have access to the database? It would be nice to engrave my shiney new unique postcode when I get it on my more expensive tools so there is a better chance of recovering them. A chainsaw I postcoded in the UK was returned a year after it was stolen because it was found in a road side search of a vehicle.

ukoda · 26-09-2014 10:18am

my3cents wrote: »

Anyone know if the Garda will have access to the database? It would be nice to engrave my shiney new unique postcode when I get it on my more expensive tools stuff so there is a better chance of recovering them. A chainsaw I postcoded in the UK was returned a year after it was stolen because it was found in a road side search of a vehicle.

I would imagine so, They have stated that all state databases will be encoded before launch, i have to assume that includes the emergency services too (despite the claims they are trying to disassociate themselves from it, as its still listed on the eircode website as a sector who will use it)

my3cents · 26-09-2014 10:25am

ukoda wrote: »

I would imagine so, They have stated that all state databases will be encoded before launch, i have to assume that includes the emergency services too (despite the claims they are trying to disassociate themselves from it, as its still listed on the eircode website as a sector who will use it)

The main point really is that the code format needs to be well enough know for a Guard to instantly recognize it. No one is going to be looking anything up unless that happens. I know in the UK the police see loads of stuff they know is stolen but it if they can't trace the previous owner the crooks keep it.

Postcoding valuables would be a good way to promote the new code.

ukoda · 26-09-2014 10:32am

my3cents wrote: »

The main point really is that the code format needs to be well enough know for a Guard to instantly recognize it. No one is going to be looking anything up unless that happens. I know in the UK the police see loads of stuff they know is stolen but it if they can't trace the previous owner the crooks keep it.

Postcoding valuables would be a good way to promote the new code.

probably won't have any official "to how use postcodes to fight crime" training or initiatives, but you'd imagine that if their Database is encoded they will be asking for eircodes on a regular bases for taking details when they pull people over and other such things, so they should be used to seeing them and would hopefully recognise them on stolen property

National Postcodes to be introduced

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