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Heat Pumps - post here.

  • 29-04-2008 3:13pm
    #1
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭


    Hi All,
    I have some questions some of you may have answers for.

    I have a Ochsner heat pump for my geothermal heating system and on the information plate at the back of it, it says that it should use 3.6 KWh based on 20Amps at 230V with a power factor 0f 0.78. There is also another figure for the maximum current of 23 Amps.

    My issue is that I have measured using a clamp meter a current of up to 28Amps (at 226V), I have also run some tests where I have switched off all circuit breakers in my house except for the ones used by the geothermal system. Taking account of shunt pump and controls the heatpump uses (measured over a few nights) approximately 4.8KWh. The supplier claims that this is due to a lot of heat loss in my house and that therefore the pump has to work harder. I think that this may be a fob off as the information plate clearly states that it should draw a max current of 23 Amps but to use 4.6KWh it must be drawing an average of over 26Amps. Has anyone else seen this? Is it normal? Will it affect the life of my heatpump etc. etc.
    Tagged:


«134567…73

Comments

  • #2
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    I can't honestly say that I know the answer, but I think you've hit on a very real issue that some geo owners are experiencing - i.e. big electricity bills, over and above what was previously 'calculated'......

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #3
    AckwelFoley
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,556 ✭✭✭✭AckwelFoley


    There are 2 reasons why there are high esb costs on heatpumps.

    1. The insulation of the house was not adequet or fitted poorly. (Its not a fob off) Its rather simple to proove. Get a Heat loss test done

    2. The size of the pump is not adequet for the use. Each house needs to be calculated differently. As there are different specs for different house.

    And more importantly.. having "good insulation" means NOTHING if its not fitted correctly If there are gaps in it you are as well have not fitted it at all as it causes a thermal draught


  • #4
    galwaytt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,790 ✭✭✭✭galwaytt


    snyper wrote: »
    There are 2 reasons why there are high esb costs on heatpumps.

    Your forgetting another is that too many 'fitters' have no idea what they're doing.............

    Ode To The Motorist

    “And my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, generates funds to the exchequer. You don't want to acknowledge that as truth because, deep down in places you don't talk about at the Green Party, you want me on that road, you need me on that road. We use words like freedom, enjoyment, sport and community. We use these words as the backbone of a life spent instilling those values in our families and loved ones. You use them as a punch line. I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the tax revenue and the very freedom to spend it that I provide, and then questions the manner in which I provide it. I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise I suggest you pick up a bus pass and get the ********* ********* off the road” 



  • #5
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭mossy74


    I have extra insulation fitted to the inside of the walls, under the floors and in the attic space and it is well fitted - though the heat loss survey is definitely something on my to do list!

    My original question though was specific to the high current draw from the heat pump itself, regardless of heat loss I am concerned that it is using more than the maximum stated on the device itself and the effect it is having on my energy bills and on its life expectancy - has anyone seen similar readings to what I have?


  • #6
    gunner0098
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hi Mossy,

    This is just a general reply to say that I'm having issues with very large ESB bills (last 2 month bill was €395!). I'm using a NIBE Fighter 1220. My installer tells me that it's not the heatpump that's causing the problem but I think overwise.
    I do have insulation in the floors, walls and attic and I assume its been fitted correctly. But obviously looking at the other posts it's something that I'll have to check out.
    The electrical measurements you have are very specific and I think I'll have to get my electrical in to check out my heatpump and see can he do similar.

    Regards

    Gunner0098


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  • #7
    mossy74
    Registered Users Posts: 24 ✭mossy74


    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!


  • #8
    gunner0098
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 ✭gunner0098


    Hey Mossy.

    And here I was sweatting over my bill (which is still inducing bouts of anger!!).

    Can I ask what your next step is with this?

    Cheers

    gunner0098


  • #9
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers Posts: 41,830 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!


    :eek::eek:
    geezzz............


  • #10
    KAGY
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,092 ✭✭✭KAGY


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi Gunner, I hate to say it but I think I can beat you on that one.... my last 2 Month bill was €725. I nearly died of a heart attack when I saw it!

    €729! Beat ya
    TBH, my compressor was working over time due to a refn leak. Normally 350 in winter 200 in summer. As i'm in the country I have a higher standing charge than urban areas, that's fair enough ESBN have to do more work to get the line to me, but I'm charged the same higher rate for the night meter even though the line is there! (total 160 a year for both)

    Gunner, it might be an idea to check the pressures in the heat pump. You also never said what the thermostats are set to. If your house is at 22deg all over 24/7/365 your bills would obviously be higher.
    My upstairs is heated by the heat rising from downstairs except on the coldest of nights when I might have the rads on for 2hrs.


  • #11
    boardwalk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3 ✭boardwalk


    mossy74 wrote: »
    Hi All,
    I have some questions some of you may have answers for.

    I have a Ochsner heat pump for my geothermal heating system and on the information plate at the back of it, it says that it should use 3.6 KWh based on 20Amps at 230V with a power factor 0f 0.78. There is also another figure for the maximum current of 23 Amps.

    My issue is that I have measured using a clamp meter a current of up to 28Amps (at 226V), I have also run some tests where I have switched off all circuit breakers in my house except for the ones used by the geothermal system. Taking account of shunt pump and controls the heatpump uses (measured over a few nights) approximately 4.8KWh. The supplier claims that this is due to a lot of heat loss in my house and that therefore the pump has to work harder. I think that this may be a fob off as the information plate clearly states that it should draw a max current of 23 Amps but to use 4.6KWh it must be drawing an average of over 26Amps. Has anyone else seen this? Is it normal? Will it affect the life of my heatpump etc. etc.
    I only saw you posting today. The difference of electricity consuption of what it says on the lable and the reality has nothing to do with heat loss. The 3,6 KWh is for the heat pump only and does not include the electricity for the geothermal circulation pump.


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  • #12
    martincodd
    Closed Accounts Posts: 10 ✭martincodd


    I've been doing some research on heat recovery and heat pumps etc. for a house i'm constructing. I was wondering if anyone knows what i can do if i have heat pumos and heat recovery in my house and the electricity goes off. Am i totally dependant on the esb or what's the story. Also how much power can i expect to use for these. Would it be advisable to have some form of power generation of my own? any help or links etc would be useful. I just don't want to totally rely on electricity in my house. An airtight house needs to be ventilated i've been led to believe....


  • #13
    Juantorena
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 147 ✭✭Juantorena


    I am looking to go down this route. Currently I'm awaiting feedback from the manufacturers as to whether the calculated heat demand for the house can be met by their system. If I get an affirmative from them I will be talking with them in more detail re the running costs, practical day-to-day running programs/methods etc.

    One thing to remember - other than a stand alone space heater (i.e. stove) I think all other heating systems do have an electric input of some sort, remember water-based systems need a pump. If the ESB goes down, you're still without heating on an UFH/rad system.


  • #14
    No6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,489 ✭✭✭No6


    martincodd wrote: »
    An airtight house needs to be ventilated i've been led to believe....
    according to Thomas O'Leary (Irelands first passive house owner) when the ESB is down open a window!!!:D It may not help your heating but will keep you ventilated!!


  • #15
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    Juantorena wrote: »
    I think all other heating systems do have an electric input of some sort, remember water-based systems need a pump. If the ESB goes down, you're still without heating on an UFH/rad system.

    True - so the old saying "never leave all your eggs in one basket", is apt. Always a good idea to have a backup or alternative.

    A heated floor slab won't completely loose all its heat, overnight, if the ESB fails. Unlike water in a radiator.

    Some Passive houses have numerous 50watt halogen bulbs - lots of heat off them, but not necessarily economical to run! (People, lights, cooking are viewed as heaters) I suppose technically a Passive House isn't always an Eco House.:)


  • #16
    record
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭record


    gunner0098 wrote: »
    Hey Mossy.

    And here I was sweatting over my bill (which is still inducing bouts of anger!!).

    Can I ask what your next step is with this?

    Cheers

    gunner0098

    Just to get an update - have your ESB bills come down since you posted on this topic? I'm interested as I am currently having similar problems.

    Many thanks.


  • #17
    record
    Registered Users Posts: 34 ✭record


    I have read many threads here on the running costs of heatpumps. A common theme seems to be very high (and unexpected) running costs when people start to use them.

    I am just wondering if anyone has managed to bring down the running costs of their heatpump and, if so, how?

    (I am having similar problems myself with my own heatpump).

    Thanks in advance for any replies.


  • #18
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Sorry I cant offer a direct reponse - I don't have a heat pump - would you mind taking part in this please ?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055263818


  • #19
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    A lot of energy is consumed by domestic hot water . You may be overheating it .

    If your water is nice and hot whilst showering and you neeed to mix cold - try turning your cylinder stat down

    Try increasing the thickness of insulation on your cylider and increasing the insulation of your primary pipework ( which runs between the cylinder and heat pump )

    Do you have dual tarriff metring ? To take advantage of night rate ? Try moving the power on period more into the night time zone

    Not heat pump related ....

    unplug all appliances where this is practical ( or turn off switches if your power points have switches )

    only fill ketttle with 2/3 cupfulls if thats all your going to use

    only charge your phone for the 40/50mins rerquired -never overnight

    replace most / all lighting with low energy


  • #20
    Chimpster
    Closed Accounts Posts: 146 ✭✭Chimpster


    Folks,

    Is it fair to say that anyone with an air to water heat pump has been paying up to €0.19 per kWh for the last week to heat their home?

    Is there anybody out there that has a unit installed for over a year now? What are your experiences?

    I am finding it difficult to get proper independent COP figures for air to water units.


  • #21
    dryan
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭dryan


    Hi Lads and Lassies,

    I have a few questions to throw out there regarding the working/performance of Geothermal Heatpumps.

    These days i find that the heatpump is running alot - both at night time (mostly) and during the day (quiet a bit too).
    One thing that is bugging me is that even though there is no demand (all stats are off and the cylinder is heated), its still running clocking up the units. I quizzed the installer about this last year and he told me that once the outside temp hits < 3 degrees, the heat pump will be running most of the time.
    Is he right on this???
    What is bugging me is that even though there is no demand on it - its still running.

    My second question is regarding some of the Brine out/in temperature readings on it.
    I kept an eye on it during the summer months and the Brine out/in temp was reading 7/11 degrees.
    I checked this again last night and the readings were 3/7 degrees.
    I didnt think that the ground temperature would show that much of a difference.
    Is there anyone else out there seeing similar readings?

    Regarding the performance of my heatpump - i installed a seperate meter on my heatpump this year (April 7th 2008).
    Last night it hit 3000 units.
    Considering that the majority of these units used were at a night rate of 6.5 cents, if they average say at 10 cents a unit (max), to date then my heat pump running costs since the meter was installed is around 300 euro excluding VAT and standing charges..

    How does that compare to other users out there?

    Thanks folks.


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  • #22
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 46,304 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    This is an ongoing topic so What I am going to do is make one thread and merge the others with this. A couple of the posts will now be jumbled up a wee bit but you can blame smashey and Mellor for that.

    This will tidy up the sub forum a bit and i will sticky this to ensure that its staring at you as soon as you hit the front page.


  • #23
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    I've been running a GS heat pump in a three bed detached house for about five years now. The heat delivery is underfloor.

    I use no gas or oil. I have a solid fuel range, mainly ornamental though we occasionally cook a roast in it and will probably do the Xmas roast in it. We also keep a small traditional open (to the sky) fire in the living room, again ornamental in the main.

    Part of the house is a traditional cottage using rubble filled stone walls. So they're very porous - and can on occasion be draughty in strong easterlies. The insulation in the roof space, under the floors and in the modern external walls is to a fairly high standard.

    We have three kids at school so the washing machine is going throughout out the week - the tumble dryer less so though it gets plenty of use. We cook on an electric stove, microwave etc. The front door to the house is open to the garden most days when the kids are not at school. Otherwise the half door is open to keep the dog from lounging around indoors.
    My wife works from home so the heat's on all day every day. She uses a computer and printer.

    So apart from the nice wood fire in the TV room in winter and the occasional range slow-cooked roast diiner, the ESB supplies all my energy. My ESB bill has settled at around €2k pa. We use a night meter but the thermostats are generally reprogrammed only about two or three times a year. It's not unheard of to open the velux windows in the roof in spring to cool the place or to sit in the kitchen at dinner in winter with the door open so I'm sure I could do better.

    It's because the house itself is the radiator, the comfort of the place is seductive. There's no shouting at the kids to close to door or hunting around for draughts, though on occasion the east wind can blow down the chimney or through the walls, but that's not frequent.

    And we never run out of oil on a Sunday afternoon in February.


  • #24
    slayer91
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 233 ✭✭slayer91


    Somethings to consider about excessive ESB bills with heats pumps.

    1. The unit cost of electricity when I installed my heat pump in late 2005 was 12.2c per KWH for day rate and 5.42c per Kwh for night rate. The current costs are 18c and 8.8c respectively. That is a huge increase over time.

    2. This winter has been by far, the coldest of the last 3 winters, so the heat pump is running longer to keep the internal temps the same.

    3. The most important figure in dealing with heatpumps is the CoP (Co efficent of Performance). The higher the better. If your Cop is 4.5 then for every unit of electrical energy (running the compressor in the heat pump) used by the HP, it returns 4.5 units of heat. All CoP are effected by ambient temp, the lower it goes the lower the CoP goes. Therefore the HP runs longer to give the same heat. Most suppliers quote their system CoP for 8 deg C. Air source HP in particular are effected by this.

    I used my air sourced HP to supply all heating (u/f downstairs and rads upstair), domestic hotwater for 2 showers and taps.
    In all, the total annual ESB costs for all usage including general usage in 2007 was €2400. I expect this figure to be exceeded for 2008 for the reasons outlined. House is 2500sq ft. Insulation could be improved.

    Regs


  • #25
    hiscan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭hiscan


    on the subject of high esb bills,got one last month for 495 euro the only problem is we dont have any underfloor heating but i did install one of hose dual meters,my question is do i need the day/night meter when i dont have underfloor heating a mate reckons your eletricity is dearer this way
    the only pumps i have is one in the garage where all my heating is eg. boiler,water tanks i also have a well on site and theres a pump down there plus one of the new septic tanks
    would any of these three pumps justify an esb bill 0f 495 euro?
    would there be such a thing as a faulty esb meter
    apologies if this is in the wrong place feel free to move it


  • #26
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    hiscan wrote: »
    on the subject of high esb bills,got one last month for 495 euro the only problem is we dont have any underfloor heating but i did install one of hose dual meters,my question is do i need the day/night meter when i dont have underfloor heating a mate reckons your eletricity is dearer this way
    the only pumps i have is one in the garage where all my heating is eg. boiler,water tanks i also have a well on site and theres a pump down there plus one of the new septic tanks
    would any of these three pumps justify an esb bill 0f 495 euro?
    would there be such a thing as a faulty esb meter
    apologies if this is in the wrong place feel free to move it

    Are you sure there isn't an "E" beside the current meter reading? I have got really scary bills in the past too. But they were wildly inaccurate estimated readings on the ESB's part.


  • #27
    hiscan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,105 ✭✭✭hiscan


    rathbaner wrote: »
    Are you sure there isn't an "E" beside the current meter reading? I have got really scary bills in the past too. But they were wildly inaccurate estimated readings on the ESB's part.

    i wish there was but unfortunately it's an actual reading:(


  • #28
    dryan
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭dryan


    Regarding the performance of the heatpumps (Horiz GS), can people tell me the temperature values of the brine in/out readings? How is this cold spell affecting the heat pump performances?

    Thanks


  • #29
    2500w
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭2500w


    This cold snap started about two weeks ago, on a Sunday as I recall.
    I noticed that it coincided with our heat pump just running and running. Up until then it had been acheiving 34 degree UFH temperatures no problem. Overnight it seemed to begin to struggle to acheive 26 degrees.

    Only then did I look for a figure for brine temp. From the analog dials I am reading it seems to be at 0 and -2 (in and out)! Note to get an accurate reading for these, I understand the unit has to be RUNNING.

    If anybody knows :
    - how to get digital data for brine temps from an ochsner heat pump I would be obliged. The installer or manufacturer still has not told me.
    - what effect these low brine temperatures have on heat pump COP.

    In reply to dryan, the heat pump running even when there is no demand. It may be possible to prevent this by turning the heat pump setback temperature down to something like 15 degrees. Its trying to keep the water at a certain temperature hence it kicks in regardless of demand from the rooms.


  • #30
    merlynthewizard
    Registered Users Posts: 174 ✭✭merlynthewizard


    How cheap are they to run? and are they green since we get out power from fossil fuels?
    What kind of figures are we talking to get one done?


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  • #31
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    Cheaper than gas or oil IMO. Independent test have been carrier out, see RIAI mag.
    Geo-thermal is eco green - even if we still use fossil fuels to generate Electricity - shame on us, we have the perfect country for Wind turbines but have been painfully slow to invest!

    How can a system that give up to 3kw of heat per 1 kw esb used be less efficient than a 90% boiler? Shame on SEI


  • #32
    Wobs
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Wobs


    Hey RKQ,

    I tried looking up RIAI online but could not find any reference to the independent testing. Do you have a link or is the magazine available in shops?

    Dryan, your heat pump might be running when there is no demand due to the low temperatures, it could have an anti frost setting where if the temperatures get to low it will run to prevent freezing.


  • #33
    dryan
    Registered Users Posts: 500 ✭✭✭dryan


    Hey Wobs,

    How do i know what setting to change?

    Mine is a thermia HP if you are familiar with the running of it.

    Cheers.


  • #34
    Wobs
    Registered Users Posts: 247 ✭✭Wobs


    Sorry Dryan,

    I wouldn't be familiar with the Thermia set up. Get on to the Thermia agent. If it is the anti freeze setting Im not sure that you can change them as they are there to protect the heat exchanger from freezing and bursting which you dont want to happen.

    Sorry I cant be of any more help.


  • #35
    barongreen
    Registered Users Posts: 84 ✭✭barongreen


    just bumping this forum as now that the winter is over it might be interesting to hear how people got on with there heat pump's costs over cold winter.


  • #36
    Connacht
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 447 ✭✭Connacht


    Ok lads,
    I know of a person in a ca. 4,000 sq ft house with only GSHP UFH heating and no back-up rads or OFCH or anything else.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2009 - Euro 5,000 - day units 21,000 - night units 19,000.
    Elec bills for y/e Feb 2008 - Euro 4,000 - day units 15,000 - night units 19,000.
    Clearly, there is something VERY seriously wrong here.
    Can anyone say what it is likely to be ? It's a pretty new build (less than 7 years), so it's unlikely to be poor insulation. Even setting the room to 20 C all the time would hardly account for such bills. This sounds like a real problem with the system, no ?


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  • #37
    2500w
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭2500w


    House: 240 sq m

    Total ESB bill for 4 months (Nov/Dec/Jan/Feb) 1000 euro or very close to that. This figure includes every applicance in the house and standing charges, VAT ie. what I paid ESB.


  • #38
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    RKQ wrote: »
    How can a system that give up to 3kw of heat per 1 kw esb used be less efficient than a 90% boiler?

    Because for every 1Kw of power delivered to you 2.7kw has been consumed in its generation and distribution .

    So a heat pump delivering at COP 3 is just about equal to an efficient boiler

    I could not have put it better than this ....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=59147773&postcount=4

    .


  • #39
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    merlynthewizard wrote: »
    How cheap are they to run? and are they green since we get out power from fossil fuels?
    What kind of figures are we talking to get one done?

    look at paragraph starting "Secondly ..... "

    http://www.greenbuildingforum.co.uk/newforum/comments.php?DiscussionID=289&page=1#Item_1


  • #40
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    So a heat pump delivering at COP 3 is just about equal to an efficient boiler

    I could not have put it better than this ....

    "the BER rating is based on primary energy use and electricity is considered secondary energy and is generated (in Ireland) mainly from primary energy resources such as oil, coal, gas and peat with only a relatively small proportion from renewable resources such as wind."

    Primary energy, secondary energy.... who decides this rubbish?
    Are these "classes" of energy international or an Irish answer to an Irish problem?
    Either way I think its a matter of opinion or the twisting of ideals - personally IMO energy is energy, plain and simple.

    I'm not responcible for the ESB's use of fossil fuels.
    Oil boilers use fossil fuels but no-one cares how much energy is required to drill, extract, purify and transport crude oil to your oil or gas tank.
    Never really thought oil wells were eco places! (not to mention the polution or wars)

    We as a race depend on electricity and its future generation will determine our survival, as a species when fossil fuels run out.

    By the same argument a BER rating on a house with Geothermal should improve in the future once the majority or all electricty generation is provided by hydro, solar, wind or wave power! (primary energy)

    Who will automatically upgrade the old BER ratings on that day?


  • #41
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    From the DEAP manual

    the Dwelling Energy Assessment Procedure (DEAP), which is the Irish official procedure for calculating and assessing the energy performance of dwellings. The procedure takes account of the energy required for space heating, ventilation, water heating and lighting, less savings from energy
    generation technologies. For standardised occupancy, it calculates annual values of delivered energy consumption, primary energy consumption and carbon dioxide emissions, both totals and per square metre of total floor area of the dwelling.

    You are (?) aware of -

    a certain global warming theory that points the finger at CO2 emmisions

    that electricity in Ireland is a very carbon intensive form of energy - it is not clean

    that your heat pump , in DEAP , will gain credit for its COP but lose that credit again in primary energy consumption

    that BER certs are not only about A -B - C energy ratings but CO2 emmision ratings too and that a certain taxation commission is right now looking at amongst other things , introducing carbon taxes here

    that being pleased with your heat pump because you believe it serves YOU well but not caring about how it is fueled puts you in an unflattering light .
    ( light ! - geddit :pac::pac:)

    .


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  • #42
    BoozyBabe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,724 ✭✭✭BoozyBabe


    Hi Sinnerboy.
    We're planning (at the minute) to put in an Air to water heat pump.
    So, what you're saying above is that even though it 'appears' green, it won't be because the electricity it uses isn't green.
    & because of that, if taxes were to come in, we'd be taxed for this.

    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    Will this have an impact on how 'green' our system appears to be?
    Thanks,
    BB


  • #43
    RKQ
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,292 ✭✭✭RKQ


    I understand the points above, I just don't agree with the author of DEAP. Primary and secondary is a crazy idea.

    Our uk cousins aren't as quick to dismiss geothermal due to how electricity is generated in their country. (Cheap nuclear would make electricty very positive - by DEAP argument - zero carbon)

    Electricity is the only renewable power we have.
    Once fossil fuels are gone we will continue to use and generate electricity. Our future depends on better and cheaper electricity generation - hydro, solar or wind. Thats why we continue to develop and promote electric cars and hybrid engines.
    Look at the eco Earthships in US or eco village in Wales - they all generate their own electricity.

    As regards tax - we live in a country with lazy minded desparate Ministers that will tax anything - they will alays go for the soft target - Carbon, mobile phone text or even posts on Boards.ie. Silly tax is no endorsement.

    Wind is a fantastic resourse in Ireland yet it is under used. We are ideally suited to wind generation, due to our position in Europe. Yet IMO because of lazy semi-state bodies and slow Government policy we are way behind our potential generation. We are unlikely to meet of Keyoto figures. Whose fault is this?
    (Wind generation was advocated instead of nuclear power at Carnesore in the 70's - yet very few wind farms have been built since)


  • #44
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    DEAP heavily penalises electricity use vs oil or gas .

    It applies these primary factors of 1.1 for gas and oil and 2.7 for electricity posted earlier but it also allocates the following CO2 emmision factors - ( unit Kg/Kw hour )
    Oil 0.272
    Natural Gas 0.203
    Elec. 0.643

    Or put it another way DEAP says that Electricity use emmits 2.3 times more CO2 than oil or 3 times more than Nat . Gas .

    That is the reality of the situation . How are these factors arrived at ? Big question - I don't know . But they ARE the factors .


  • #45
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    BoozyBabe wrote: »
    Hi Sinnerboy.
    We're planning (at the minute) to put in an Air to water heat pump.
    So, what you're saying above is that even though it 'appears' green, it won't be because the electricity it uses isn't green.
    & because of that, if taxes were to come in, we'd be taxed for this.

    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    Will this have an impact on how 'green' our system appears to be?
    Thanks,
    BB


    See my post before this one and download the Domestic Fuel Comparison tool here

    http://www.sei.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/

    now when using any excell spread sheet , like when driving a car , you must be fully alert and paying attention at all time

    Do an exercise to compare Air to Water Heat Pump ( ATWHP ) vs Kerosene Oil Boiler (KOB)

    NB

    Download Domestic Fuel Cost Comparisons Jan 09 and use those costs

    Change the Degree of Thermal Efficiency for
    ATWHP to 2.0 ( 3 if you were to use a ground source heat pump )
    KOB to .9

    Select "Heat pump night saver electricity rate - average " . Because in truth you will not be able to run in night saver only - ( my opinion )

    For both , set annual fuel cost increase to 5% ( crystal ball stuff - who knows really but I suggest 5 % )

    For investment - enter €10k for ATWHP ( €20k if Geo ) and for KOB enter €4k

    The BIG unknown is what the future holds for the various relative fuel costs


  • #46
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    BoozyBabe wrote: »
    What about the fact that we're planning on getting our electricity from Airtricity.
    BB

    As of now - DEAP will not differentiate this


  • #47
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    RKQ wrote: »
    I understand the points above, I just don't agree with the author of DEAP. Primary and secondary is a crazy idea.

    Not trying to confront you for divilment RKQ - you might like to follow this

    http://www.constructireland.ie/vb/showthread.php?t=694


  • #48
    Jloner2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 11 ✭Jloner2


    Hi all,
    I am currently starting a new build house and in the process of looking for a geothermal heating system woth horizontal ground source and under floor heating. The prices I am been quoted here are madness.

    These systems have been used in Germany and Sweden for years.

    Does anyone know of suppliers either in these countries or even the UK that would do a supply only quotation at a more realistic price.....

    cheers

    jim


  • #49
    rathbaner
    Registered Users Posts: 63 ✭✭rathbaner


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    As of now - DEAP will not differentiate this
    Really incredible!! The government're going to use a carbon tax to make non-fossil fuel burners subsidise fossil fuel burners.

    I'll have to switch off the GSHP and start burning coal!!


  • #50
    Borzoi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,876 ✭✭✭Borzoi


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    http://www.sei.ie/Publications/Statistics_Publications/Fuel_Cost_Comparison/

    now when using any excell spread sheet , like when driving a car , you must be fully alert and paying attention at all time

    Using the tool, and your numbers sinnerboy I'm coming up with a saving of €45K over 25 years by going heat pump - will you double check


  • #51
    mick2907
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4 ✭mick2907


    Hi Jloner
    I am currently going through the courts for what me plumber told me would cost me €850 per year for a dimpco LA 11 heat pump. This pump has cost me up to €1900 per year approx to run. If I take into account the €10,000 to buy the pump and the the €2000 per year to run-I was stupid to listen to my plumber. A condensor oil boiler bought in the north will cost about €300 cheaper than down here and is more efficent that any heat pump. I have the ESB bill's to prove what I paided - daylight robbery.
    STAY AWAY FROM THE HEAT PUMP- IT IS Crazy


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