Bylsports not honouring Euro Golden Boot bets?

wynters · 02-07-2012 2:13pm #1

Went to cash a bet just shy of 4 figures this morning in BS (Torres Golden Boot + Spain to win @ pre-tournament odds of 25/1) only to be told it would be settled on 1/6th of original odds - as Torres finished level on goals scored with other players...

Anyone experienced anything like this before?

'Took the guy 20 minutes on the phone to head office to sort it out only to come back with that...

Bad form.

BS by name. BS by nature.

GavRedKing · 02-07-2012 2:14pm

wynters wrote: »

Went to cash a bet just shy of 4 figures this morning in BS (Torres Golden Boot + Spain to win @ pre-tournament odds of 25/1) only to be told it would be settled on 1/6th of original odds - as Torres finished level on goals scored with other players...

Anyone experienced anything like this before?

'Took the guy 20 minutes on the phone to head office to sort it out only to come back with that...

Bad form.

BS by name. BS by nature.

Most bookies are doing this, the 1/6th of odds.

pickarooney · 02-07-2012 2:14pm

What exactly does it say on your docket - "golden boot" or "top scorer" ?

Rekop dog · 02-07-2012 2:16pm

gavredking wrote: »

wynters wrote: »

Went to cash a bet just shy of 4 figures this morning in BS (Torres Golden Boot + Spain to win @ pre-tournament odds of 25/1) only to be told it would be settled on 1/6th of original odds - as Torres finished level on goals scored with other players...

Anyone experienced anything like this before?

'Took the guy 20 minutes on the phone to head office to sort it out only to come back with that...

Bad form.

BS by name. BS by nature.

Every bookie is doing this, the 1/6th of odds.

Its 1/6th of the stake not the odds!

kfallon · 02-07-2012 2:16pm

They paid you the right amount! It was a 6 way tie on top scorer!

Father Damo · 02-07-2012 2:18pm

To think one instant of good sportmanship on his last chance on goal cost the guts of 800 (I assume) must be sick tbh!

Gavred- every bookie? Without checking, tbh Paddy Power are normaly (I guess being so rich anyway and can afford it) the types tofully pay out or part refund in this type of scenario. With so many results going completely against the expected (Holland early exit, Portugal and Ronaldo doing well, the amount of long odd bets people would have bet on Ireland out of hope) the Irish bookies must have made an utter killing on this tournament.

recyclebin · 02-07-2012 2:18pm

Torres won the golden boot but was only joint top scorer. Hard luck!

munchkin_utd · 02-07-2012 2:19pm

the golden boot is a specfic prize
(http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/award/index.html)
and is different than "top scorer" and is awarded when multiple player have the same nr of goals to he who has a) highest number of assists b) fewest minutes played.

If you have written confirmation that it was "golden boot" then you should take boyle sports to the small claims court and the judge will laugh at them and award you your winnings I would think.

GavRedKing · 02-07-2012 2:19pm

Rekop dog wrote: »

Its 1/6th of the stake not the odds!

I jsut said 1/6th odds as the OP said he got 1/6th of the odds, I was assuming it would be of the stake and not the odds, cheers for the heads up.

GavRedKing · 02-07-2012 2:21pm

Father Damo wrote: »

To think one instant of good sportmanship on his last chance on goal cost the guts of 800 (I assume) must be sick tbh!

Gavred- every bookie? Without checking, tbh Paddy Power are normaly (I guess being so rich anyway and can afford it) the types tofully pay out or part refund in this type of scenario.

I've a buddy who went to ladbrokes and found himself in a similar situation as the OP, had Torres as outright top scorer and the paid out 1/6th.

Seen another guy on FB, not really a good friend though, mention PP giving the same 1/6th on his top scorer bet, but he had Gomez so hes not to pushed.

Maybe all was a sweeping statement, I'll change it.

doney84 · 02-07-2012 2:22pm

Rekop dog wrote: »

Its 1/6th of the stake not the odds!

Is it not the same thing ???

kfallon · 02-07-2012 2:22pm

Father Damo wrote: »

To think one instant of good sportmanship on his last chance on goal cost the guts of 800 (I assume) must be sick tbh!

Gavred- every bookie? Without checking, tbh Paddy Power are normaly (I guess being so rich anyway and can afford it) the types tofully pay out or part refund in this type of scenario. With so many results going completely against the expected (Holland early exit, Portugal and Ronaldo doing well, the amount of long odd bets people would have bet on Ireland out of hope) the Irish bookies must have made an utter killing on this tournament.

They only paid me 1/4 of my stake for David Villa in the World Cup and I am pretty sure I'll only get 1/6 of my Gomez stake whenever I can be arsed to collect my pittance!

pickarooney · 02-07-2012 2:25pm

Father Damo wrote: »

To think one instant of good sportmanship on his last chance on goal cost the guts of 800 (I assume) must be sick tbh!

I've seen this said so many times but Buffon had the angle well closed down and the pass was the obvious percentage play there. Nothing unselfish about it and youse should be glad he did pass or youse would have won zilch.

kfallon · 02-07-2012 2:25pm

doney84 wrote: »

Is it not the same thing ???

Nope, think about having a €6 on at 12/1

1/6 of your stake means €1 on at 12/1 which means a return of €13 (€12 win plus €1 stake returned)

1/6 of odds would mean it's €6 on at 2/1 which means a return of €18 (€12 win plus €6 stake returned)

GavRedKing · 02-07-2012 2:25pm

Moved to Gambling -> Football Betting

amiable · 02-07-2012 2:30pm

So do people expect the bookies to pay out on all 6 players at full stakes who finished top scorer?

pricewise987 · 02-07-2012 2:31pm

Torres did win the Golden Boot award

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/winner/index.html

wasn't that the bet???

"Torres Golden Boot + Spain to win @ pre-tournament odds of 25/1"

kfallon · 02-07-2012 2:32pm

amiable wrote: »

So do people expect the bookies to pay out on all 6 players who finished top scorer?

They will do, it's a dead heat and there are rules for this!

pricewise987 wrote: »

Torres did win the Golden Boot award

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/winner/index.html[/QUOTE]

Not sure the bookies had a market on the Golden Boot winner, just the top goalscorer!

yesno1234 · 02-07-2012 2:33pm

pickarooney wrote: »

I've seen this said so many times but Buffon had the angle well closed down and the pass was the obvious percentage play there. Nothing unselfish about it and youse should be glad he did pass or youse would have won zilch.

He still would have been on the same goals whether he passed or not. So they still would have won.

pricewise987 · 02-07-2012 2:34pm

Correct

Top Goalscorer - Dead Heat rules apply

Golden Boot - 1 winner

amiable · 02-07-2012 2:34pm

kfallon wrote: »

They will do, it's a dead heat and there are rules for this!

pricewise987 wrote: »

Torres did win the Golden Boot award

http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/winner/index.html[/QUOTE]

Not sure the bookies had a market on the Golden Boot winner, just the top goalscorer!

Apologies. I should have posted do people expect bookies to pay out on fulll stakes on all 6 top scorers.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 2:37pm

kfallon wrote: »

They paid you the right amount! It was a 6 way tie on top scorer!

recyclebin wrote: »

Torres won the golden boot but was only joint top scorer. Hard luck!

munchkin_utd wrote: »

the golden boot is a specfic prize
(http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/award/index.html)
and is different than "top scorer" and is awarded when multiple player have the same nr of goals to he who has a) highest number of assists b) fewest minutes played.

If you have written confirmation that it was "golden boot" then you should take boyle sports to the small claims court and the judge will laugh at them and award you your winnings I would think.

specific prize awarded to the top scorer, there's no differences in these two terms in that competition.
golden boot = top scorer & top scorer = golden boot

it's bullshít from bookies in a competition like this where there is rules in place to decide who's top scorer, therefore winning the golden boot.
unlike the PL where it shared between players if they're level

ArmaniJeanss · 02-07-2012 2:41pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

it's bullshít from bookies in a competition like this where there is rules in place to decide who's top scorer, therefore winning the golden boot.
unlike the PL where it shared between players if they're level

But bookies don't take bets on the Golden Boot competition.
They do their own Top Scorer market with standard rules.

02-07-2012 2:41pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

specific prize awarded to the top scorer, there's no differences in these two terms in that competition.
golden boot = top scorer & top scorer = golden boot

it's bullshít from bookies in a competition like this where there is rules in place to decide who's top scorer, therefore winning the golden boot.
unlike the PL where it shared between players if they're level

Once they're paying out on all 6 I don't see an issue.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 2:52pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

But bookies don't take bets on the Golden Boot competition.
They do their own Top Scorer market with standard rules.

but the golden boot winner is the top scorer you can't obtain that award any other way than being the top scorer(official) at that tournament

their own standard rules or do you mean like the PL do and share it?

say if it's their own could bookies just say if there's a tie were not paying out on any of them? can they put whatever they want in them rules?

Deleted User wrote: »

Once they're paying out on all 6 I don't see an issue.

what if you've backed torres & get paid on 1/6 of your stake

that guy in the OP said he though he was going to get near a 4 figure sum because he backed it @ 25/1
so for arguments sake we'll say he put on €40 - return €1040
now return is something like €173.33 - if i've done that right, dunno how they'll do the odds on these bets, still divide by 6?

amiable · 02-07-2012 2:57pm

Bookies can make up their rules as long as the rules are in place before the bet is placed.
If the bookies rule is specifically top scorer then that's up to the bookie.
The bookies aren't getting away with anything though as some seem to think as they will still be paying out on 6 players.
The liability might not be exactly the same but I don't think they set out to catch people on it.
I personally don't think goalscorer markets are good markets to bet on normally.(some exceptions)

MrJoeSoap · 02-07-2012 2:57pm

Here's the long and short of it...

If the bet was on the Torres "Golden Boot" and Spain to win, it should be paid at full stake, at the odds quoted. I doubt it was, but I stand to be corrected on that. If the bet was on Torres "Top Scorer" and Spain to win, it should be paid at 1/6th of the stake, at full odds.

There's no other way around it really, all the bookies have this well covered and it's fairly common practice. If there had been 50 players tied on 2 goals, you'd hardly expect them to pay out on all of them, so why would they on 6 players?

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 3:06pm

I'd just really expect them to pay out full on Torres as he is the top scorer i couldn't care about the other 5 & don't think they should pay on them.

wonder are they all doing the 1/6

02-07-2012 3:07pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

but the golden boot winner is the top scorer you can't obtain that award any other way than being the top scorer(official) at that tournament

Incorrect. The Golden Boot is decided by the person who has scored the most goals, followed by the most assists, followed by the least minutes on the pitch.

It's the difference between betting on who won the Premiership and who got the most points. If you bet on the premiership winners, the bookie pays out on Manchester City. If you bet on the most points, it's split between City and United.

Top scorer does not equal Golden Boot winner

ArmaniJeanss · 02-07-2012 3:09pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

but the golden boot winner is the top scorer you can't obtain that award any other way than being the top scorer(official) at that tournament

their own standard rules or do you mean like the PL do and share it?

say if it's their own could bookies just say if there's a tie were not paying out on any of them? can they put whatever they want in them rules?

what if you've backed torres & get paid on 1/6 of your stake

that guy in the OP said he though he was going to get near a 4 figure sum because he backed it @ 25/1
so for arguments sake we'll say he put on €40 - return €1040
now return is something like €173.33 - if i've done that right, dunno how they'll do the odds on these bets, still divide by 6?

'Standard rules' means how they'd do it in any top goal scorer (or try scorer or touchdown scorer etc) competition. With only actual scores counting and no fancy tie break splitters. (Which is coincidentally how the EPL does it). And dead heat rules applying for any ties.

Your maths example is correct by the way.

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

Here's the long and short of it...

If the bet was on the Torres "Golden Boot" and Spain to win, it should be paid at full stake, at the odds quoted. I doubt it was, but I stand to be corrected on that. If the bet was on Torres "Top Scorer" and Spain to win, it should be paid at 1/6th of the stake, at full odds.

This may not be true - even if the OP wrote Golden Boot, its very likely the bookie had a rule that all such bets went on the Top Scorer market (the bookies one, not UEFAs)

Rekop dog · 02-07-2012 3:13pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

I'd just really expect them to pay out full on Torres as he is the top scorer i couldn't care about the other 5 & don't think they should pay on them.

wonder are they all doing the 1/6

All the main ones. Some indep bookies might pay out in full but not if they've taken much money on the players involved in the tie.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 3:13pm

28064212 wrote: »

Incorrect. The Golden Boot is decided by the person who has scored the most goals, followed by the most assists, followed by the least minutes on the pitch.

It's the difference between betting on who won the Premiership and who got the most points. If you bet on the premiership winners, the bookie pays out on Manchester City. If you bet on the most points, it's split between City and United.

Top scorer does not equal Golden Boot winner

No, not incorrect.

that's now they decide who gets it if their level on goals, if their's no players level on goals them two tiebreakers don't come into play. If one has more assists than the other the least minutes played one doesn't come into effect

the top scorer at the european championships is awarded the golden boot
golden boot = top scorer & top scorer = golden boot

02-07-2012 3:17pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

No, not incorrect.

that's now they decide who gets it if their level on goals, if their's no players level on goals them two tiebreakers don't come into play. If one has more assists than the other the least minutes played one doesn't come into effect

the top scorer at the european championships is awarded the golden boot
golden boot = top scorer & top scorer = golden boot

Mario Balotelli scored three goals at the European Championships. No-one scored more than him. He is (one of) the top scorers

ArmaniJeanss · 02-07-2012 3:17pm

As a general rule X Country to win and their striker Y to be top scorer are notoriously bad value, mug bets even.

*****
To paraphrase Pullein's example in the Racing Post.
Germany were 3/1, Gomez 8/1 but instead of the double being 35/1 it was actually 16/1.
Now some can say this is because the prices are related, which to an extent is true.
However the initial prices 3/1 and 8/1 are already reduced because of this relationship - Germany are as short as 3/1 JFs because they have players like Gomez, and Gomez is as short as 8/1 because he plays for a top team like Germany.

So when the prices get halved again when you do the double you are into complete mug territory.

Something to bear in mind before doing the Messi Argentina doubles in two years.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 3:21pm

28064212 wrote: »

Mario Balotelli scored three goals at the European Championships. No-one scored more than him. He is (one of) the top scorers

he did score 3 goals along with five others yes, but he is not the official top scorer of the tournament, which is torres. The official top scorer who got the golden boot.

Rekop dog · 02-07-2012 3:22pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

As a general rule X Country to win and their striker Y to be top scorer are notoriously bad value, mug bets even.

*****
To paraphrase Pullein's example in the Racing Post.
Germany were 3/1, Gomez 8/1 but instead of the double being 35/1 it was actually 16/1.
Now some can say this is because the prices are related, which to an extent is true.
However the initial prices 3/1 and 8/1 are already reduced because of this relationship - Germany are as short as 3/1 JFs because they have players like Gomez, and Gomez is as short as 8/1 because he plays for a top team like Germany.

So when the prices get halved again when you do the double you are into complete mug territory.

Something to bear in mind before doing the Messi Argentina doubles in two years.

Even the 3/1 alone on Germany to win is shocking value. If you backed them to qualify in the quarters semi and final(I know they didn't make it but theoretically) rolling over winnings from each bet, the accumulative price would have been almost certainly > than the 3/1 + you're freerolling the group stages.

ArmaniJeanss · 02-07-2012 3:22pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

he did score 3 goals along with five others yes, but he is not the official top scorer of the tournament, which is torres. The official top scorer who got the golden boot.

How difficult is to get that bookmakers weren't taking bets on the 'official' top scorer, they were taking bets on who scored the most goals?

MrJoeSoap · 02-07-2012 3:27pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

I'd just really expect them to pay out full on Torres as he is the top scorer i couldn't care about the other 5 & don't think they should pay on them.

wonder are they all doing the 1/6

He isn't the top scorer! It's not that hard a concept to grasp, there were 6 players tied for top scorer.

And yes, they are all doing the exact same.

Paddy Power wrote:

Why are my returns not as much as I thought?
With Top Goalscorer markets there is always a possiblity of players tied on the same number of goals. This can generate dead heats (especially for places in each-way bets) and this can be tricky to understand. We have provided an explanation below:

Top Goalscorer dead heat
With the Top Goalscorer market it is possible for two or more players to be deemed winners having finished with the same number of goals. In this event a dead heat is applied to all winning selections. The stake is divided by the number of players tied for Top Goalscorer and paid out at the full odds.

Example from Euro 2012 Final: You backed Fernando Torres to be top goalscorer at 18/1, £10.00 stake. There were 6 players tied for first place for Top Goalscorer (Torres, Balotelli, Dzagoev,Gomez, Mandzukic and Ronaldo all scored 3 goals). Therefore your stake is divided by 6 and paid at 18/1 which is 1.66 at 18/1. Winnings = £31.67 Please note: Goals scored in extra-time count for Top Goalscorer markets but goals scored in penalty shootouts do not count.

Own goals do not count for goalscorer markets.

**Please Note - The Top Goalscorer market is entirely seperate to placing a bet on who would win the 'Golden Boot' award; Top Goalscorer is determined by who has scored the most goals within the tournament, in accordance with the rules above; any 'Golden Boot' market would be directly decided by the announcement from UEFA as to the winner of the award.

02-07-2012 3:28pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

he did score 3 goals along with five others yes, but he is not the official top scorer of the tournament, which is torres. The official top scorer who got the golden boot.

The golden boot award is defined by goals, followed by assists, followed by least minutes. That's what the golden boot award means. It does not mean the player who scored the most goals (although they can sometimes be the same)

If you put a bet down last season on Man United to get the most points (not win the premiership, just to get the most points), would you say they didn't achieve it?

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 3:50pm

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

How difficult is to get that bookmakers weren't taking bets on the 'official' top scorer, they were taking bets on who scored the most goals?

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

He isn't the top scorer! It's not that hard a concept to grasp, there were 6 players tied for top scorer.

And yes, they are all doing the exact same.

I had understood it you know, I'm not pointing out to that person or anyone else what i think the bookies do i've understood that even though i think it's a stupid rule in this case, what i'm saying is who is the official top scorer. not what some fúcking bookie says, nothing to do with gambling. Which since this is a thread about the difference may be confusing things.

which would you think cost more to them paying 1/6 stake on all six or paying full on just torres

DB74 · 02-07-2012 3:52pm

There is no doubt that paying out in full on Torres (one of the favs @ 18/1) would cost them more than paying 1/6th odds on 6 different guys

I would be amazed if many people backed Mandzukic or Dzagoev before the tournament

MrJoeSoap · 02-07-2012 3:53pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

which would you think cost more to them paying 1/6 stake on all six or paying full on just torres

You do understand that this rule is there for many, many years? It wasn't made up to screw you out of your little Torres bet.

02-07-2012 3:54pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

what i'm saying is who is the official top scorer.

Who has called Torres the official top scorer? Every news report, every statement, every release from UEFA says he got the Golden Boot, which means that, of the top scorers, he had the most assists, and of those, he had the fewest minutes of the pitch

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 4:00pm

28064212 wrote: »

The golden boot award is defined by goals, followed by assists, followed by least minutes. That's what the golden boot award means. It does not mean the player who scored the most goals (although they can sometimes be the same)

If you put a bet down last season on Man United to get the most points (not win the premiership, just to get the most points), would you say they didn't achieve it?

you keep saying followed by, do you think these are included if there's no players level on goals?
In the euro's/world cup/PL the winner of the golden boot is the player who has scored the most goals & in the euro's + WC there's tie breaking criteria to decide who gets it.

yes i would say united didn't achieve that as they had the same points as city

02-07-2012 4:07pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

you keep saying followed by, do you think these are included if there's no players level on goals?
In the euro's/world cup/PL the winner of the golden boot is the player who has scored the most goals & in the euro's + WC there's tie breaking criteria to decide who gets it.

yes i would say united didn't achieve that as they had the same points as city

"Top scorer" has exactly one meaning: Scored the most goals. Golden Boot has additional criteria. Can you tell me why the UEFA top scorers page has Alan Dzagoev in the second position, even though he came third in the Golden Boot award?

If the bookies offered markets on the Golden Boot, you could tell because they would offer markets on the Golden Boot. They didn't, they offered markets on top scorer only

At this stage you must be trolling.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 4:10pm

DB74 wrote: »

There is no doubt that paying out in full on Torres (one of the favs @ 18/1) would cost them more than paying 1/6th odds on 6 different guys

I would be amazed if many people backed Mandzukic or Dzagoev before the tournament

but the others especially gomez would have been well back, maybe ronaldo too
+ a lot would have backed dzagoev after his opening match remember seeing his two prices (before & after the game) unsure if the same happened with mandzukic

MrJoeSoap wrote: »

You do understand that this rule is there for many, many years? It wasn't made up to screw you out of your little Torres bet.

i know it wasn't :pac: & i didn't bet on torres.
i just think they should pay out on him & only him in this case as they've tie break rules in place unlike the PL for example

DB74 · 02-07-2012 4:13pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

but the others especially gomez would have been well back, maybe ronaldo too
+ a lot would have backed dzagoev after his opening match remember seeing his two prices

What do you mean "well back"

Gomez was favourite for months before the tournament started while Ronaldo was about 3rd favourite

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 4:17pm

28064212 wrote: »

"Top scorer" has exactly one meaning: Scored the most goals. Golden Boot has additional criteria. Can you tell me why the UEFA top scorers page has Alan Dzagoev in the second position, even though he came third in the Golden Boot award?

If the bookies offered markets on the Golden Boot, you could tell because they would offer markets on the Golden Boot. They didn't, they offered markets on top scorer only

At this stage you must be trolling.

The page hasn't been updated i'd say can you tell me why on this page he's third like you said he should be http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/index.html

it's not additional criteria, they're tie break rules.

there's no point to this at all, you're the one trolling because you couldn't be that slow to pick it up.

ArmaniJeanss · 02-07-2012 4:17pm

DB74 wrote: »

What do you mean "well back"

Gomez was favourite for months before the tournament started while Ronaldo was about 3rd favourite

Typo I'd say, think he meant 'well backed', i.e., agreeing with you that they were amongst the favs.

batistuta9 · 02-07-2012 4:19pm

yeah i meant well backed

02-07-2012 4:29pm

batistuta9 wrote: »

The page hasn't been updated i'd say

:rolleyes: Despite the fact that Torres is down as having three goals, right

batistuta9 wrote: »

can you tell me why on this page he's third like you said he should be http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuro/season=2012/golden-boot/index.html

Because that page is for the GOLDEN BOOT award, not top scorer.

Halfway down this page. Again, not ranked by the golden boot criteria, they're all lumped together under three goals

batistuta9 wrote: »

it's not additional criteria, they're tie break rules.

Use whatever phrasing you want. It doesn't change that they're solely for the awarding of the Golden Boot, not for top scorer

B*yl*sports not honouring Euro Golden Boot bets?

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Bylsports not honouring Euro Golden Boot bets?