Trinity BEGGING for money

andrew · 07-05-2011 4:09pm

bhur wrote: »

Educated reaction: A lot of debate over league tables and positioning and their validity

Being the Country-boy-middle-class-not-posh-enough-for-trinners-yokel I am: Oh darn! i bow down before you! here, have my wallet!

Educated response: Even if there's a margin of error, Trinity's position is so far ahead of other colleges that it's still clearly better.

You're the one inferring my attitude. You're the one with the inferiority complex. All I'm saying is that Trinity's better academically. Fact.

bhur · 07-05-2011 4:13pm

andrew wrote: »

Educated response: Even if there's a margin of error, Trinity's position is so far ahead of other colleges that it's still clearly better.

You're the one inferring my attitude. You're the one with the inferiority complex. All I'm saying is that Trinity's better academically. Fact.

ZERO inferiority complex, Almost full points in the LC 4 years ago, consistently high marks in uni, but i suspect i wouldnt fit in with the "daddy bought me..." crowd nor would i want to.

Are you a trinners student by the way?

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 4:16pm

Tragedy wrote: »

From the TAP website:

What? You apply to TAP foundation course, OR HEAR entry. You don't do one and get the other if it doesn't work out.

HEAR(which is part of TAP, but I just call the Foundation course TAP as it's easier) does offer students entry on reduced points - it confirms this on both the TCD website and the HEAR website.

Please stop arguing against points I didn't make. If you go for direct entry to university as a TAP student you don't get in on reduced points. The HEAR programme is connected with specific schools, so one school might be a TCD school, another a UCD etc. Either way, one can still apply for the foundation course, and this doesn't get you in on "reduced points", it just means you're assessed on different criteria.

Tragedy wrote: »

Entitlement isn't the same as being given a grant. I said HEAR/TAP students always seemed to automagically be entitled to the full top-up grant, of course they still have to apply for it.

So what's your point? A TAP student has to submit the exact same financial documentation to their local authority as anyone else and they're assessed in exactly the same way. As a matter of fact, it was harder for me as I had to prove I was abandoned by my parents when I was a teenager. Of course someone who gets into a programme designed for people from poor socio-economic backgrounds is going to be accepted for a grant designed for people with low incomes - what about it?

Tragedy wrote: »

For a TAP Ambassador of 4 years, you know **** all about it's entry requirements and eligibility to be quite honest.

Or maybe TCD has failed you in your development of reading comprehension skills. Try reading again. If this starts getting personal, though, I'll refuse to engage with you.

Tragedy wrote: »

Oh and Raedwald, the foundation course isn't to a JF level (and I've looked at the exam papers for the Arts modules). It makes zero sense for it to be the same difficulty as JF academically, otherwise why bother doing the foundation course?
It's about pass leaving cert level, but more focused on what your degree will require.

I didn't do the foundation course, so I can't say with any certainty, but I've been told that the Politics, History, and Law modules are very similar to the JF modules, they're just not quite as extensive given that the foundation arts course is comprised of a number of different modules. The idea is that you're given the opportunity to develop the necessary skills to succeed at university level.

andrew · 07-05-2011 4:22pm

bhur wrote: »

ZERO inferiority complex, Almost full points in the LC 4 years ago, consistently high marks in uni, but i suspect i wouldnt fit in with the "daddy bought me..." crowd nor would i want to.

Are you a trinners student by the way?

Well then you've a warped perception of Trinity. It's not full of posh stuck up people. It's full of nerds.

Yes.

bhur · 07-05-2011 4:30pm

andrew wrote: »

Well then you've a warped perception of Trinity. It's not full of posh stuck up people. It's full of nerds.

Yes.

Ok i shall take your word for it so, but im sure you are aware of the typical trinner stereotype.

Anyway this thread bores me, well done to TCD on their affirmative action, but give it a few years guys, NUIG, UCD, will close the gap in the tables considerably

Au revoir

tehjimmeh · 07-05-2011 4:50pm

bhur wrote: »

Hold on now, i aint knocking TCD, in fact il want to head there in 2 years time, i merely stated that each institution has its own merits and strengths

No you didn't, you said "[TCD students] don't have much to be proud of".

How is that saying that each institution has its own merits and strengths?

bhur wrote: »

but feck off if you are of the thinking that TCD is the best in the country overall

TCD consistently places higher than all other Irish universities on a wide range of university ranking tables.

But that's irrelevant really, very few people in Trinity live up to the stereotype of thinking that they're better than anyone else or that they go to a better university than anyone else Far more prevalent IME are those with an inferiority complex towards TCD students.

TCD students aren't "posh" or rich or snobbish or anything you might perceive them as being for some bizarre reason. It's not exclusive either, you apply for TCD via the CAO, same as any other university.

Grow up.

El Siglo · 07-05-2011 6:15pm

bhur wrote: »

Educated reaction: A lot of debate over league tables and positioning and their validity

Being the Country-boy-middle-class-not-posh-enough-for-trinners-yokel I am: Oh darn! i bow down before you! here, have my wallet!

You're not the only culchie in uni... I'm from Laois and went to Trinity for my MSc having been in UCD, I've worked in NUIM and I'm in QUB for my PhD. Out of all of these places, Trinity was by far the best. UCD was good, but there's not enough small tutorials or classes or practicals for what I was studying (Geography). QUB is okay but it's a different ball game at PhD level. Trinity was great because you have people coming from all over the place; the 'best' and worst parts of Dublin, South Kerry, the US and the UK. It was a great experience and I still keep in touch with lecturers there. The old attitudes of the landed gentry, entitlement etc... Are long gone and Trinity students are the same as anyone else (show me a knob head from TCD and I'll show you one from UCD, NUIG etc...).

Back on topic; TAP etc... Great programmes, they do no harm and cost pittance, don't see the problem with giving help to the worst off in society or is that going to break the economy once and for all...:rolleyes:

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 6:45pm

Fo Real wrote: »

The sense of entitlement among some of you is outrageous. I don't accept the argument that if someone went to a shít school, they deserve a scholarship and reduced points.

Do you agree that someone who grows up in a socially, economically, and academically deprived environment should be given the opportunity to demonstrate their academic abilities?

Fo Real wrote: »

A smart student will do well whether he is in a private or public school.

I haven't got the source to hand at the minute, but I can get it: I read a statistic a few years ago that said that 7% of students from D10 (where I'm from) and 9% from D11 progress to University, as compared to the >70% from D4 and >80% from D6. Is that because we're genetically inferior, or inherently prone to laziness, stupidity, failure?

But then you look at the extremely high success rate of TAP students in TCD, and their disproportionately high representation within sports clubs and societies. Off-hand I can think of, academic-wise, several successful final year students, a Ph.D graduate in History, a Ph.D student in the Institute of Neuroscience, two Ph.D students in the School of Psychology, several Psychology M.A. students, and several M.A. and M.Sc. graduates. Last year's winner of the TCD student award was a TAP student, and I know several TAP students in high committee positions, one of whom is a captain.

So I would argue that there are definitely some major environmental impediments to a successful leaving cert, and anyone who claims otherwise is extremely naive.

Fo Real wrote: »

A teacher can't learn for you, only YOU can learn. Likewise, rich kids get sent to the Institute and automatically assume that it guarantees them a place in TCD. It is merely an attempt to deflect personal responsibilty for your own education.

But then if you look at the Irish Times school leagues tables the private, fee-paying schools consistently top the charts. You can't build a house out of your own faeces, and when you're deprived of even the most simple resources such as books (my school had no library and my family couldn't afford the full book list) and you have to put up with a massive student:teacher ratio (my school was about 30:1) you can't exactly excel. There's also a poverty of stimulus in these deprived areas, and students are consistently led to believe that Trinity, UCD, DCU are all for rich people who go to decent schools. Let me ask you, have you ever even been to a working class area?

Fo Real wrote: »

What TAP represents for me is the creeping in of American-style "affirmative action", where positive discrimination (an oxymoron if I ever saw one) is encouraged to give poor people and minorities an unfair advantage in the world of education and employment. The situation is farcical in America, where kids feel under pressure to emphasise their "ethnic" heritage. So a middle class white kid will search his family tree back generations in the hope of finding a trace of a Jew or Latino somewhere down the line.

Your attitude seems very consistent with American Tea-Party conservativism, or elitism. Ignoring your ridiculous "positive discrimination" claim, do you honestly believe people from deprived socio-economic backgrounds have any semblence of an advantage over those from upper-middle class wealthy backgrounds with excellent private education? Stop being ridiculous and I suggest reevaluate your concept of privilege for a moment. The situation is farcical in America because poor people, many of whom are ethnic minorities, don't even have access to the most basic medical facilities because they can't afford health insurance (but as far as I'm aware there are increasing efforts to change this).

affirmative%20action.jpg

Fo Real wrote: »

Trinity cannot maintain its current level of expenditure.

I agree.

Fo Real wrote: »

The fact that it released these videos is evidence of that.

TAP has been involved in a number of fundraising initiatives over the years, including the Trinity Takes to the Streets campaign. So, what's the problem?

Fo Real wrote: »

In recent years we've seen the building of the new gym, the long room hub and the refurbishment of the Pav. I'd imagine the university is in serious debt. Bring back fees combined with a loan system.

I'm not getting into a fees debate. I'm all for fees for those who can afford it, but not for those for whom fees would be the ultimate barrier to an education.

Fo Real wrote: »

Scrap TAP and cut funding to the SU and 90% of societies.

Your ignorance amazes me. Scrapping TAP would be a major backwards step and would only further perpetuate the elitism this country is so seriously plagued with. As much as much of what the SU does pisses me off, we need one. The clubs and societies are integral to the whole TCD experience, and they've already taken a massive cut.

Fo Real wrote: »

You pay for what you use. Don't expect the nanny state to fund your drinking for the next four years.

Who are you referring to here? Not the TAP students I hope, because that would raise a number of unfortunate implications regarding just how out of touch you are with reality. For the four years I've been in TCD I've had a weekend job as bouncer - a shít, dangerous, and consuming job. I have no parents to pay my rent, and I'm only 22. If you seriously believe that any money I have goes towards a bad habit then it perfectly explains why you have such a warped sense of social justice and equality.

Oh, and by the way, I don't drink.

Sir Ophiuchus · 07-05-2011 6:51pm

TrollHammaren wrote:

awesome picture explaining privilege versus affirmative action

I spent half an hour yesterday trying to find that picture to use in my response. Thank you!!

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 6:59pm

I'm worried that potential applicants to TCD could read this and be put off by the snobbery of some of the posters in this thread, so let me just point out that the vast majority of students I've spoken to in TCD have absolutely no problem with the TAP programme. Many of the volunteers for TAP are actually not TAP students, one of whom is a good friend of mine.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0423/1224295304511.html

KH25 · 07-05-2011 7:46pm

TrollHammaren wrote: »

I'm worried that potential applicants to TCD could read this and be put off by the snobbery of some of the posters in this thread, so let me just point out that the vast majority of students I've spoken to in TCD have absolutely no problem with the TAP programme. Many of the volunteers for TAP are actually not TAP students, one of whom is a good friend of mine.

Here's an interesting read:

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2011/0423/1224295304511.html

Id like to agree with this. I'm in final year law and for the first few days of first year I was kind of worried about what people would think of me for having gone through TAP but nobody cared. The fact is that no matter how you get into Trinity everybody's treated the same way from the day you start.

Fo Real · 07-05-2011 8:37pm

@ TrollHammaren

The fact that you work a part-time job and managed to succeed at college shows me that you're obviously a hard working and intelligent person. You're not the type of socialist leech that my OP was aimed at.

Re you affirmative action cartoon: It's condescending to minorities to say they need extra help to succeed. It's like admitting they are inferior to you. It also demeans true minority achievement; i.e. success is labeled as result of affirmative action rather than hard work and ability. This "shadow" will hang over each of the students you listed who went on to do MAs and PhDs for the rest of their academic careers. It also creates resentment and bitterness among those who have to work to fund college, those who don't receive grants, bursaries, free grinds classes etc

Let me ask you, have you ever even been to a working class area?

What a ridiculous question. How do you know that I'm not "working class"? Ironically so called working class people nowadays don't work. It's an outdated term that orginates from a time before social welfare payments, where urban dwellers worked in the factories and the mines. Furthermore, you'll find it's often irritating middle class snobs that are the biggest advocates of leftie policies like affirmative action and TAP. It makes them feel superior by thinking that the poor folk couldn't succeed without their help.

wandatowell · 07-05-2011 8:39pm

Are you Fo Real??

get a grip man

Sir Ophiuchus · 07-05-2011 9:18pm

Fo Real wrote: »

Re you affirmative action cartoon: It's condescending to minorities to say they need extra help to succeed. It's like admitting they are inferior to you. It also demeans true minority achievement; i.e. success is labeled as result of affirmative action rather than hard work and ability.

Do you really think that the success of a middle-class person is due solely to their own ability rather than the privilege they have?

Here are some personal examples:

- I'm good with computers because my parents could afford one from when I was very young, and I've therefore been using them my entire life. (http://geekfeminism.org/2010/07/27/if-you-were-hacking-since-age-8-it-means-you-were-privileged/)

- I've been reading from a very early age, in part because my parents had a lot of books, could afford to buy me books, and could afford to take time to read to me and teach me to read myself.

- I went to a private school with a high rate of university acceptance, a low student-teacher ratio, and a whole host of facilities and extracurriculars because my parents could afford it.

- I did very well in my Leaving Cert not least because my parents suggested I get grinds at the Institute and offered to pay for them. I suspect I wouldn't have had the points to change course later on in college if I hadn't taken those grinds.

- My parents both attended college, and both came from families that valued education very highly, and were therefore very supportive of my going to college: it was pretty much expected.

- When I changed course, my parents were able to help me with the fees for the years I had to repeat. Without their assistance, I would have had to drop out of college.

- Similarly, when I wasn't able to get part-time work of any kind for a long time, my parents were able to help me out with an allowance for college. Again, I wouldn't have been able to finish college without that.

- Some of the best jobs I've ever gotten (from a CV perspective) were only possible because in the first place my parents knew someone who was willing to give me an opportunity at work experience, which turned into being asked to come back repeatedly later.

Those are just a few examples from my own life. Does that mean I'm undeserving of everything I've ever had? Does it mean that what I've achieved has nothing to do with my own skills and abilities? No. I did well and was able to take advantage of my many opportunities because I was gifted, and willing to put in the work. But I'm not nearly arrogant enough to think that the massive advantages I've received from my background had nothing to do with it.

Also, a corollary to TrollHammaren's picture:

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 9:28pm

Fo Real wrote: »

@ TrollHammaren

The fact that you work a part-time job and managed to succeed at college shows me that you're obviously a hard working and intelligent person. You're not the type of socialist leech that my OP was aimed at.

Statements like these do nothing to endear me towards you, OP. For one, you clearly don't understand what the word "socialist" means, but that's beside the point. I thought my previous posts indicated that TAP students are, in fact, extremely hard working and in many cases have to work much harder than people from middle-class backgrounds to succeed. The funny thing is that almost if not all my TAP friends work (I can't think of any who don't), and a good chunk of my middle-class friends don't (which I don't hold against them - education has to come first), so your original post seems to be directed towards a group that is largely non-existent.

The funniest part, I consistently vote for Socialist candidates in elections

Fo Real wrote: »

Re you affirmative action cartoon: It's condescending to minorities to say they need extra help to succeed. It's like admitting they are inferior to you.

Now you're just being silly. Look at it in the context of American social policy. It's no secret that middle-class, white Americans are born with a significant advantage (just like here). The black kid in the picture needs help getting into university not because he's not a member of the "master race", but because he can't afford the 50K plus a year tuition fees. I shouldn't have to explain these pictures to you. Maybe this would be more fitting?

affirmative-action_cartoon.gif?w=450&h=326

affirmative-action_cartoon.gif?w=450&h=326

Fo Real wrote: »

It also demeans true minority achievement; i.e. success is labeled as result of affirmative action rather than hard work and ability. This "shadow" will hang over each of the students you listed who went on to do MAs and PhDs for the rest of their academic careers

That's one of the great things about Trinity, very few people have that appalling attitude. Most of my fellow students were indifferent to my TAP status, and some of my interviewers in college were actually impressed with my TAP status, as it indicates that I managed to succeed in college despite overwhelming social and economic adversary. Your "shadow" opinion is very much in the minority, as most people are very aware that TAP students who succeed do it exclusively by their own merits.

Fo Real wrote: »

It also creates resentment and bitterness among those who have to work to fund college, those who don't receive grants, bursaries, free grinds classes etc

Are you saying we don't have to work? Even though everything I've said so far has indicated otherwise? The reason I get a grant and a small bursary is because I can't live off €6'000 a year without sleeping on the streets. I still have to work, just like the rest of my TAP friends. We also don't receive free grinds. We may be able to apply for a few classes (like 3 or 4) if they have the funding, but so can disability students. Also, even if you're not a TAP student you can apply to the student hardship fund. The reason we get this is because any other middle-class student's parents are in a much better position to pay for grinds than we are. The truth is that you have absolutely no reason to be bitter.

Fo Real wrote: »

What a ridiculous question. How do you know that I'm not "working class"?

Because your opinions are very, very indicative of someone who has been spoilt and doesn't recognise their privilege. Either that, or you're Bill Cullen

Fo Real wrote: »

Ironically so called working class people nowadays don't work.

Are you fo' real?

Fo Real wrote: »

It's an outdated term that orginates from a time before social welfare payments, where urban dwellers worked in the factories and the mines.

I know where the name came from, and I couldn't care less. You're not making any point here. The fact is that "working class" is just a handy term to describe people from poorer socio-economic backgrounds. Either way, I'm not interested in getting into this.

Fo Real wrote: »

Furthermore, you'll find it's often irritating middle class snobs that are the biggest advocates of leftie policies like affirmative action and TAP. It makes them feel superior by thinking that the poor folk couldn't succeed without their help.

Such a cynical view of the middle-class lefties. A good chunk of my friends are lefties and their backgrounds range from poor to wealthy, but that doesn't matter. Regardless of class, all the lefties I know believe in left wing policies because they're acutely aware of the social injustices that permeate Irish society. Stop making unfounded claims.

Sir Ophiuchus · 07-05-2011 9:41pm

TrollHammaren wrote: »

That's one of the great things about Trinity, very few people have that appalling attitude. Most of my fellow students were indifferent to my TAP status, and some of my interviewers in college were actually impressed with my TAP status, as it indicates that I managed to succeed in college despite overwhelming social and economic adversary. Your "shadow" opinion is very much in the minority, as most people are very aware that TAP students who succeed do it exclusively by their own merits.

My main worry is that a lot of TAP students or potential TAP students don't realise this. I've worked with TAP tutoring and on Shadowing Day for years, and I remember a bunch of young girls asking me nervously if people in Trinity would hold their background and accents against them if they got in.

When people perceive prejudice like this exists, it's often just as bad as it actually existing - it doesn't have to be in the majority to influence people. It's entirely possible that if those girls hadn't asked me about that and if I and others hadn't been able to assuage those worries, that worry of theirs would have been a factor in their decision of whether they felt they could attend Trinity. Also, it's why I empathise with TrollHammaren's worry that this thread will perpetuate that sort of worry.

I don't know if the Access Programme addresses this sort of worry directly in their work with foundation year students, but I really hope they do. TrollHammaren, do you know?

TrollHammaren · 07-05-2011 10:00pm

TrollHammaren wrote: »

The reason we get this is because any other middle-class student's parents are in a much better position to pay for grinds than we are.

I should actually amend this because I'm not being fair here. I should say that most middle class families are in a better position to pay for grinds, but I do appreciate that this isn't always the case.

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

My main worry is that a lot of TAP students or potential TAP students don't realise this. I've worked with TAP tutoring and on Shadowing Day for years, and I remember a bunch of young girls asking me nervously if people in Trinity would hold their background and accents against them if they got in.

When people perceive prejudice like this exists, it's often just as bad as it actually existing - it doesn't have to be in the majority to influence people. It's entirely possible that if those girls hadn't asked me about that and if I and others hadn't been able to assuage those worries, that worry of theirs would have been a factor in their decision of whether they felt they could attend Trinity. Also, it's why I empathise with TrollHammaren's worry that this thread will perpetuate that sort of worry.

I don't know if the Access Programme addresses this sort of worry directly in their work with foundation year students, but I really hope they do. TrollHammaren, do you know?

I don't know if it's explicitly assuaged by the course directors, but I do feel that the voluntary involvement of non-TAP students in shadowing days does absolute wonders for the prospective students' confidence. Further, many current TAP students give talks to potential applicants and it's one of the questions that's frequently asked, and most TAP students will preemptively answer it.

I did come into Trinity with a slightly cautious attitude, and figured that most of my friends would be fellow TAP students, as we were all introduced to each other the week before Freshers' week. However, within a few weeks of interacting with my fellow psychology students I found that the overwhelming majority of them were great people, and I have made a number of what I believe will be friends for life.

KH25 · 08-05-2011 12:36am

Sir Ophiuchus wrote: »

My main worry is that a lot of TAP students or potential TAP students don't realise this. I've worked with TAP tutoring and on Shadowing Day for years, and I remember a bunch of young girls asking me nervously if people in Trinity would hold their background and accents against them if they got in.

When people perceive prejudice like this exists, it's often just as bad as it actually existing - it doesn't have to be in the majority to influence people. It's entirely possible that if those girls hadn't asked me about that and if I and others hadn't been able to assuage those worries, that worry of theirs would have been a factor in their decision of whether they felt they could attend Trinity. Also, it's why I empathise with TrollHammaren's worry that this thread will perpetuate that sort of worry.

I don't know if the Access Programme addresses this sort of worry directly in their work with foundation year students, but I really hope they do. TrollHammaren, do you know?

I've done a few shadowing days and been asked the same question. I always gave the answer that I'd never met anybody who looked down on me over it and that they shouldn't look at doing TAP as something to be kept quiet. The fact that they're doing the program shows how much they want to get into Trinity and for those who eventually do get in its the result of a year of hard work. When I was in the program it was never really adressed by the teachers but at the same time there was never an atmosphere of being 'different'. We were all just treated as prospective students, the same as anybody else trying to get in be it through HEAR, TAP, CAO or whatever.

Tragedy · 08-05-2011 1:26am

Anyone who isn't TrollHammaren should probably skip this post, it's just showing him how he is wrong so he doesn't make any embarrassing gaffes when acting as a TAP Ambassador.

TrollHammaren wrote: »

Please stop arguing against points I didn't make. If you go for direct entry to university as a TAP student you don't get in on reduced points. The HEAR programme is connected with specific schools, so one school might be a TCD school, another a UCD etc. Either way, one can still apply for the foundation course, and this doesn't get you in on "reduced points", it just means you're assessed on different criteria.

Please stop making points and then claiming I'm making arguments against points you did not make.

You claimed that TAP allowed entry to TCD via both direct entry with no points reduction, and via an Access course and that both these were seperate from HEAR.

You said that.
That's completely wrong, I showed you, and instead of accepting you were wrong you decided to bull**** and attack me.

1)You claimed the TAP programme was distinct from HEAR, and then described the part of the TAP programme which is actually HEAR. HEAR in TCD is run and administered by the TAP office.
2)Students are only eligible for TAP status if they apply through the HEAR, or through the foundation course. There is no TAP direct entry via CAO points aside from HEAR. There is no mythical third option that you keep claiming.

So what's your point? A TAP student has to submit the exact same financial documentation to their local authority as anyone else and they're assessed in exactly the same way. As a matter of fact, it was harder for me as I had to prove I was abandoned by my parents when I was a teenager. Of course someone who gets into a programme designed for people from poor socio-economic backgrounds is going to be accepted for a grant designed for people with low incomes - what about it?

Exactly, what about it? I pointed out that in my experience of HEAR students, every single one was receiving the top-up grant. I also pointed out the existence of the SAF. And I also said

Funding for Mature Students/'Poor' Students...actually, funding for students full stop has always been a joke. Zero fairness and a distinct lack of transparency in it.

So why are you trying to attack me over it?

Or maybe TCD has failed you in your development of reading comprehension skills. Try reading again. If this starts getting personal, though, I'll refuse to engage with you.

I'm not the one who lacks comprehension skills. I'm also not the one who lacks the ability to know when wrong when contradicting the TCD TAP website, or the one who gets bitchy when wrong.

You are a TAP ambassador(according to your own words).
You know **** all about the eligibility of TAP.
What's your problem with my factual statement? Dude, seriously, I'm sorry my knowing more about non-traditional entry to TCD offends you, but jaysus - get over it.

PS: I think if you look up the meaning of "engaging with someone", pretending you didn't write something you actually did and then attacking someone for pointing out your factual errors and commenting on your lack of knowledge doesn't count.

To conclude:
Access Courses/Mature Student Entry has been proven to be a big success in both graduation rates, and grades achieved in any college that has published stats on it in Ireland. The social cost of it is far outweighed by the social benefit. HEAR is different, and unfortunately I've yet to see any even brief studies on the relative successes/failures of HEAR students as compared to normal direct entry students. College grant/assistance schemes are imho, deeply flawed and need vast overhauls as too many people(from many socio-economic backgrounds) get money they don't need while too many people don't get the money they do need.
Don't try portray me as Denerick or Fo'Real, I wouldn't be in TCD if it wasn't for alternative entry. That just makes me a little bit more qualified to judge it than those two.

dog_pig · 08-05-2011 4:03am

This 'bhur' guy is hilarious.

TrollHammaren · 08-05-2011 4:47pm

Tragedy wrote: »

You claimed that TAP allowed entry to TCD via both direct entry with no points reduction, and via an Access course and that both these were seperate from HEAR.

No, I said that TAP is a distinct entity to HEAR, but I'm well aware that students apply through HEAR. The difference is that HEAR links different universities to specific schools. Trinity, as far as I'm aware, is the only college with its own access office (which again, you apply to through HEAR). The distinction is that HEAR is run by several universities, TAP is Trinity-specific. With regards direct enty, if someone gets the points, they may still be eligible to TAP supports if they meet a number of criteria - applying for HEAR is in no way distinct from direct entry.

Tragedy wrote: »

That's completely wrong, I showed you, and instead of accepting you were wrong you decided to bull**** and attack me.

This is the interwebz, nobody is bullshítting or attacking you, I'm responding to your points, but if you want to I can RESPOND LIKE THIS!!!!!!1!!

Tragedy wrote: »

1)You claimed the TAP programme was distinct from HEAR, and then described the part of the TAP programme which is actually HEAR. HEAR in TCD is run and administered by the TAP office.

I said they're distinct entities, but as I said, I'm well aware that TAP operates with HEAR. Let me just reiterate, HEAR is run by several unis, TAP is TCD-specific. If I didn't explain it very well then my bad.

Tragedy wrote: »

2)Students are only eligible for TAP status if they apply through the HEAR, or through the foundation course. There is no TAP direct entry via CAO points aside from HEAR. There is no mythical third option that you keep claiming.

When you apply for HEAR you still go through the CAO - that is direct entry. When have I mentioned some sort of mythical third option? Anyway, in light of what I've just told you, please read again what I said:

At entry level, TAP works in two ways. If a student in a designated disadvantaged school gets the points (via HEAR or otherwise), they're eligible for TAP status. Each course has a requirement to allocate 15% of their places to "non-traditional" (mature, TAP, disability) students, and the TAP students are entitled to one of these places (admittedly, this may have changed recently, but I can't be certain). If the student doesn't get the points, but demonstrates academic capability, they can apply to one of two foundation courses: TAP or Liberties.

Tragedy wrote: »

Exactly, what about it? I pointed out that in my experience of HEAR students, every single one was receiving the top-up grant. I also pointed out the existence of the SAF. And I also said

So why are you trying to attack me over it?

I can't see why you bothered bringing the top-up grant up. It was completely irrelevant given that pretty much everyone below a certain income is entitled to it, which means TAP students are too.

I wasn't attacking you over it, I was responding. If you perceive everyone's response as an attack then the internet will not be a pleasant place for you.

Tragedy wrote: »

I'm not the one who lacks comprehension skills. I'm also not the one who lacks the ability to know when wrong when contradicting the TCD TAP website, or the one who gets bitchy when wrong.

So now if you read up you'll find I'm in no way contradicting the TAP website. I don't know where you're getting the bitchyness from.

Tragedy wrote: »

You are a TAP ambassador(according to your own words).
You know **** all about the eligibility of TAP.
What's your problem with my factual statement? Dude, seriously, I'm sorry my knowing more about non-traditional entry to TCD offends you, but jaysus - get over it.

Again, in light of my previous comments, these statements here make you look very, very silly.

Tragedy wrote: »

Access Courses/Mature Student Entry has been proven to be a big success in both graduation rates, and grades achieved in any college that has published stats on it in Ireland. The social cost of it is far outweighed by the social benefit. HEAR is different, and unfortunately I've yet to see any even brief studies on the relative successes/failures of HEAR students as compared to normal direct entry students.

Are you saying HEAR is different because it hasn't been a success? What are you basing this on? I know it's only anecdotal, but I gave a large number of examples of successful TAP students in TCD. Which universities are you referring to here? Or are you just arguing that HEAR is different because of the lack of studies? If that's the case then fair enough - I would agree that we need more objective studies/statistics on the success/failure of TAP/HEAR students.

Tragedy wrote: »

College grant/assistance schemes are imho, deeply flawed and need vast overhauls as too many people(from many socio-economic backgrounds) get money they don't need while too many people don't get the money they do need.

You could argue that the means test currently in place for the grants is badly developed, fair enough, but I can say with certainty that most people who get the grant need the money - myself very much included.

FloatingVoter · 08-05-2011 6:27pm

Perhaps alongside sucess / failure rate from Santa Sabina / Blackrock students. The eager and the entitled - its a nice Sociology paper in the making providing the language is tempered to academic standards ?*

*from a mature student (36 yrs) on a Dublin Bus disability pass who never claimed privilege. I could have walked into TCD at any point with my ancient LC alone.

My main point is, however you arrive at TCD - there is plenty of room to either prove or fail yourself. Shoddy facilities, crap lecturers, someone was in my seat are not excuses. To those who look for my previous posts in this forum, yup, I stand by what I said about TCD.

However, I do not dispute anyones right or method of entry.

TrollHammaren · 08-05-2011 6:30pm

FloatingVoter wrote: »

Perhaps alongside sucess / failure rate from Santa Sabina / Blackrock students. The eager and the entitled - its a nice Sociology paper in the making providing the language is tempered to academic standards ?*

*from a mature student (36 yrs) on a Dublin Bus disability pass who never claimed privilege. I could have walked into TCD at any point with my ancient LC alone.

My main point is, however you arrive at TCD - there is plenty of room to either prove or fail yourself. Shoddy facilities, crap lecturers, someone was in my seat are not excuses. To those who look for my previous posts in this forum, yup, I stand by what I said about TCD.

However, I do not dispute anyones right or method of entry.

And that's the thing, TAP students do very well academically, and are highly represented across clubs and societies. We've had several in the SU, including a sabbatical candidate who did quite well.

FloatingVoter · 08-05-2011 6:35pm

TrollHammaren wrote: »

And that's the thing, TAP students do very well academically, and are highly represented across clubs and societies. We've had several in the SU, including a sabbatical candidate who did quite well.

...and I will guess several that aren't known about due to their working two or three jobs and not joining any societies. Or choosing not to as is their wont. If we changed TAP students to "black" , "jewish" or "muslim" students with a simple search and replace would this thread be any more tasteful. Or would the OP be a little red in the face at the moment ?

tehjimmeh · 08-05-2011 6:38pm

TrollHammaren wrote: »

We've had several in the SU

That's not a good thing.

*runs away

FloatingVoter · 08-05-2011 7:30pm

tehjimmeh wrote: »

That's not a good thing.

*runs away

Neither good nor bad - and stop running, you've forgot to tie your shoelaces

glitter! · 08-05-2011 8:09pm

Wow, a lot seem to think that TAP/HEAR students are getting a free ride and have no other problems at all. I'm not familiar with the mature student and not too familiar with the actual Liberties, TAP etc. programs but I do know HEAR pretty well. Most of you are just looking at the money aspect and think that "oh it's unfair they get more than me, I'd like that money if you're offering" but how much are you or your parents earning? Over €20,000? Over €50,000 combined? More?

You all don't seem to realise how hard some people have it, and the whole class system. Most people will remain in the same class as their parents, and if you come from a lower background it isn't exactly the nicest thing. You don't know how hard it is to climb higher and just because someone has more money than you shouldn't mean you're denied entry into a course that you have an ability for and where you're trying to educate yourself, not go on the dole for €180 or whatever it is a week. By investing in their education you're actually saving money, the tax they'll pay back in their higher earning jobs is much more than the money they're being given to study and it much less costly than the €180 a week they would otherwise be receiving for the majority of their lives.

I got accepted into the HEAR scheme and I went to a pretty alright school, it wasn't a DEIS school but it wasn't the Institute or the likes. My parents earn a combined income of less than €20,000 a year and I worked part time throughout 5th and 6th year to generate a bit of extra income to help pay the bills. Because of the exam pressure and pressure of having to work, (if I didn't work we would have been much less off and without it we were on the verge of having our electricity and gas cut off even though we had cut down so much on usage) I considered dropping out mid 6th year but decided to just take the exams and see if I could pull through. I'm quite intelligent, I have a natural ability to perform well in exams and I studied 8 honors subjects as well as LCVP because I was determined to get a place on the course in Trinity. I most certainly wasn't too lazy to study or not bothered.

I got over 500 points in the leaving, about 40 or so more than I needed for my course; not all HEAR students are people with 200 points getting into courses over 400. With HEAR I didn't get reduced points because I obviously didn't need them and most of the people I met during the HEAR introduction week didn't get reduced points either, they were a pretty bright bunch. The most I've heard of a reduction was 15%, which if you're a low performer it isn't exactly going to get you into medicine, law or any of the other high point courses. If I hadn't of gotten the required points and HEAR had awarded me a place, I would have been pretty appreciative. HEAR students aren't taking the places of other students — the 5% or so of places in courses are specifically set aside for them and were never the "average entry" student's places to begin with.

Everyone keeps going on about how unfair the points reduction is for worse-off students and acts like they're being given a free entry ticket into the course they want. Acceptance into HEAR is based on 3 of 6 factors, and to have 1 of those factors alone is unfavourable, never mind 3. Have you ever thought about how each of these factors affects a student? The pressure the student is under to help their parents, the pressure the parents are under, so much that the child has less resources because the parents can't afford it? I never received any extra tutoring, grinds, notes or anything of the likes because we couldn't afford it. A lot of people I know went to grinds in the institute, hundreds of euro per subject and still ended up with less points than me; it's all about how much you can balance things and work as hard as you can. HEAR wont give a student a course with a requirement of 500 points unless the student has around 85% of the points already, and if they have that much already their ability for the course is probably fine. The points system isn't based on how hard a subject is — that's why the matriculation requirements are in place — but is based on demand. If they get 85% of the points, they're pretty smart and most likely well able for their course. Also, it's all subject related; in order to get a lower reduction in points for a science course you'd need to achieve good results in your science subjects — you can't bank of high results in English, Irish etc. and almost fail our science subjects then think, sure it's grand because HEAR will put me through! Definitely not the case.

As soon as I went into JF I was treated the exact same as everyone else; infact noone even knew I had a HEAR background. At exam time I don't get extra time, resources or anything else, I'm just a normal Trinity student. We did get access to laptops that we could borrow, but I never used the service. There was an offer for HEAR students to get educational assistance, but again, I never used it; all Trinity students do have access to the normal student learning support centre though. I also received a waiver of the students sports centre charge, I got a bursary of €120 per month and I got a grant. I applied for a grant just like everybody else who is not on the TAP or HEAR schemes did. Just because I was a HEAR student it didn't mean I was automatically granted a non-adjacent grant.

Without this financial assistance I wouldn't have been able to afford university. Without university I would be working a low paying job and struggling to pay my bills, remaining in the constant cycle. The majority of my grant money is spent on travel expenses, books, food and utility bills etc., certainly unlike the scandal reported a while back where students from families earning considerably more than those on the HEAR program received grants they didn't necessarily need them and ended up spending the money on designed clothes and their social life. I've also had a small job throughout university to pay for my luxuries, far from a free ride even with the extra financial assistance.

When I graduate I'll be able to get a job that's high earning and pay tax, a far cry from queuing outside the social welfare offices every week to collect my 'wages'. Without all the help I don't know where I'd be today, certainly not in university.

I'm not sure if I've conveyed my points clearly enough, but I've just tried to explain to you all that just because I'm a TAP or HEAR student, it doesn't mean that I'm substandard or less competent than you. If you were in my situation and were given the opportunity to have some financial assistance, I can guarantee you that you wouldn't turn it down. It's easy to be all talk, but when you're actually put in a situation it's much more complicated and you start to worry about how you're actually going to be able to do well in university and pay your bills.

If I could get an amazing job that pays well or if my parents were in a more fortunate position where they could afford to send me to university I wouldn't apply for financial assistance because I wouldn't need it and wouldn't get it. Unfortunately that is not the case. So please, before you go bashing us, educate yourself on the matter.

KH25 · 08-05-2011 9:06pm

glitter! wrote: »

Wow, a lot seem to think that TAP/HEAR students are getting a free ride and have no other problems at all. I'm not familiar with the mature student and not too familiar with the actual Liberties, TAP etc. programs but I do know HEAR pretty well. Most of you are just looking at the money aspect and think that "oh it's unfair they get more than me, I'd like that money if you're offering" but how much are you or your parents earning? Over €20,000? Over €50,000 combined? More?

You all don't seem to realise how hard some people have it, and the whole class system. Most people will remain in the same class as their parents, and if you come from a lower background it isn't exactly the nicest thing. You don't know how hard it is to climb higher and just because someone has more money than you shouldn't mean you're denied entry into a course that you have an ability for and where you're trying to educate yourself, not go on the dole for €180 or whatever it is a week. By investing in their education you're actually saving money, the tax they'll pay back in their higher earning jobs is much more than the money they're being given to study and it much less costly than the €180 a week they would otherwise be receiving for the majority of their lives.

I got accepted into the HEAR scheme and I went to a pretty alright school, it wasn't a DEIS school but it wasn't the Institute or the likes. My parents earn a combined income of less than €20,000 a year and I worked part time throughout 5th and 6th year to generate a bit of extra income to help pay the bills. Because of the exam pressure and pressure of having to work, (if I didn't work we would have been much less off and without it we were on the verge of having our electricity and gas cut off even though we had cut down so much on usage) I considered dropping out mid 6th year but decided to just take the exams and see if I could pull through. I'm quite intelligent, I have a natural ability to perform well in exams and I studied 8 honors subjects as well as LCVP because I was determined to get a place on the course in Trinity. I most certainly wasn't too lazy to study or not bothered.

I got over 500 points in the leaving, about 40 or so more than I needed for my course; not all HEAR students are people with 200 points getting into courses over 400. With HEAR I didn't get reduced points because I obviously didn't need them and most of the people I met during the HEAR introduction week didn't get reduced points either, they were a pretty bright bunch. The most I've heard of a reduction was 15%, which if you're a low performer it isn't exactly going to get you into medicine, law or any of the other high point courses. If I hadn't of gotten the required points and HEAR had awarded me a place, I would have been pretty appreciative. HEAR students aren't taking the places of other students — the 5% or so of places in courses are specifically set aside for them and were never the "average entry" student's places to begin with.

Everyone keeps going on about how unfair the points reduction is for worse-off students and acts like they're being given a free entry ticket into the course they want. Acceptance into HEAR is based on 3 of 6 factors, and to have 1 of those factors alone is unfavourable, never mind 3. Have you ever thought about how each of these factors affects a student? The pressure the student is under to help their parents, the pressure the parents are under, so much that the child has less resources because the parents can't afford it? I never received any extra tutoring, grinds, notes or anything of the likes because we couldn't afford it. A lot of people I know went to grinds in the institute, hundreds of euro per subject and still ended up with less points than me; it's all about how much you can balance things and work as hard as you can. HEAR wont give a student a course with a requirement of 500 points unless the student has around 85% of the points already, and if they have that much already their ability for the course is probably fine. The points system isn't based on how hard a subject is — that's why the matriculation requirements are in place — but is based on demand. If they get 85% of the points, they're pretty smart and most likely well able for their course. Also, it's all subject related; in order to get a lower reduction in points for a science course you'd need to achieve good results in your science subjects — you can't bank of high results in English, Irish etc. and almost fail our science subjects then think, sure it's grand because HEAR will put me through! Definitely not the case.

As soon as I went into JF I was treated the exact same as everyone else; infact noone even knew I had a HEAR background. At exam time I don't get extra time, resources or anything else, I'm just a normal Trinity student. We did get access to laptops that we could borrow, but I never used the service. There was an offer for HEAR students to get educational assistance, but again, I never used it; all Trinity students do have access to the normal student learning support centre though. I also received a waiver of the students sports centre charge, I got a bursary of €120 per month and I got a grant. I applied for a grant just like everybody else who is not on the TAP or HEAR schemes did. Just because I was a HEAR student it didn't mean I was automatically granted a non-adjacent grant.

Without this financial assistance I wouldn't have been able to afford university. Without university I would be working a low paying job and struggling to pay my bills, remaining in the constant cycle. The majority of my grant money is spent on travel expenses, books, food and utility bills etc., certainly unlike the scandal reported a while back where students from families earning considerably more than those on the HEAR program received grants they didn't necessarily need them and ended up spending the money on designed clothes and their social life. I've also had a small job throughout university to pay for my luxuries, far from a free ride even with the extra financial assistance.

When I graduate I'll be able to get a job that's high earning and pay tax, a far cry from queuing outside the social welfare offices every week to collect my 'wages'. Without all the help I don't know where I'd be today, certainly not in university.

I'm not sure if I've conveyed my points clearly enough, but I've just tried to explain to you all that just because I'm a TAP or HEAR student, it doesn't mean that I'm substandard or less competent than you. If you were in my situation and were given the opportunity to have some financial assistance, I can guarantee you that you wouldn't turn it down. It's easy to be all talk, but when you're actually put in a situation it's much more complicated and you start to worry about how you're actually going to be able to do well in university and pay your bills.

If I could get an amazing job that pays well or if my parents were in a more fortunate position where they could afford to send me to university I wouldn't apply for financial assistance because I wouldn't need it and wouldn't get it. Unfortunately that is not the case. So please, before you go bashing us, educate yourself on the matter.

Thank you. This is what TAP and similar programs are about. Education should be freely available to everybody, provided they can meet the academic criteria and your background or parents financial status should not be determinative of you getting a place. TAP tries to level the playing field as best as it can and it improves every year.

Jonathan · 09-05-2011 12:05am

Jesus. I haven't been on boards in a few days and I arrive back to this. This thread is a mess.

Keep the personal abuse to a minimum, and carry on.

bonerjams03 · 09-05-2011 1:47am

This Thread: Pffffffffffft.

Trinity BEGGING for money

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