Plan to make road signs 'more Irish'

Going Forward · 09-11-2013 1:32am #1

As if our road signs weren't bad enough already, plans are afoot to make them worse:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/green-light-for-plan-to-make-road-signs-more-irish-29736922.html

The Minister compares the importance of clear road signage on a par with litter such as election posters...........the mind boggles.

We have enough badly placed, incomprehensible road signs without the need for further confusion Leo.

Any thoughts?

bambergbike · 09-11-2013 10:08am

TBH I worry more about the text-only warning signs - I'd like to see internationally understood symbols rather than words (in English or Irish) used for safety warnings like "soft margin" or "road flooded ahead" where possible.

Where words are deemed more useful than symbols, I would take the same approach as in these new direction signs and use both languages everywhere. We currently paint GO MALL on the road in the Gaeltacht and SLOW outside of Gaeltacht areas. So people who rarely drive in the Gaeltacht suddenly encounter markings that they have never have seen before when they do. Tourists who are unfamiliar with these roads won't generally have had Irish at school. I did have Irish at school, but I can't say we really covered the finer points of road danger in Connemara. Which is actually the one topic that I later wished we had covered in depth, given that there is no shortage of road danger in Connemara: I've often found myself cycling along knowing that there is a hazard ahead but not quite sure what it might be.

Cookie_Monster · 09-11-2013 10:10am

Going Forward wrote: »

Any thoughts?

Just to echo this:

We have enough badly placed, incomprehensible road signs without the need for further confusion Leo.

It seems absurd to me that the minister actually listens to these people. Road signs exist solely to convey information as clearly and simply as possible. The new signs do the opposite of this for 99% of people.

corktina · 09-11-2013 10:30am

current signs are fine, we don't have the money to waste on behalf of the promoters of a largely dead language

foggy_lad · 09-11-2013 12:44pm

If anyone read the article it says that signs would not be replaced immediately but that the new signs coyld be used when required. Also a change in legislation is required before these new signs can be used at all.

I personally think it is a pity and the country's shame that all our road signs are not already bilingual giving the Irish language prominence.

chinwag · 09-11-2013 1:13pm

Road signs are for conveying vital information to drivers with minimum distraction.

Anything that would make this communication less effective and less clear is not putting road safety as a priority.

Crowding our signposting with two languages, while attempting to give equal prominence to both languages, has to lead to confusion.

Driving can be taxing enough at times, we don't need more distractions.

It's simply not the place to promote the Irish language further.

ProudDUB · 09-11-2013 1:19pm

chinwag wrote: »

Road signs are for conveying vital information to drivers with minimum distraction.

Anything that would make this communication less effective and less clear is not putting road safety as a priority.

Crowding our signposting with two languages, while attempting to give equal prominence to both languages, has to lead to confusion.

Driving can be taxing enough at times, we don't need more distractions.

It's simply not the place to promote the Irish language further.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Just to echo this:

It seems absurd to me that the minister actually listens to these people. Road signs exist solely to convey information as clearly and simply as possible. The new signs do the opposite of this for 99% of people.

Would ye two ever shag off with your common sense approach to all this. Reasonableness has no place in an forum discussing Irish transport matters. :P

Utterly ridiculous imo. Conradh na Gaelgie can do all the surveys that they want. It is the Road Safety Authority that the Dept of Transport should be listening to on matters like this and no one else.

Love their line that they are concerned about elderly people not being able to read signs in italics well. But they want to put the safety of the 99% of our population of seniors at risk, just so the one or two percent of them that would read a sign in Irish before they would read it in English, get taken care of? Talk about some seriously effed up logic !

Edit: The line about our seniors was in another article I read on the matter, not the one linked to above. Basically, they were saying that as an old persons eyes deteriorate, they find it harder to read letters with curves in them, like signs in italics, which is how the current Irish signs are written. So they want Irish place names switched the larger regular font and the English ones put in italics.

So the 1% of elderly drivers who speak/read Irish get taken care of, but the other 99% are put in a situ where they will find driving harder. It's madness. Even madder that no one has the balls to stand up to these people & draw a line in the sand when their suggestions are not just impractical, they are down right dangerous ! :mad:

LXFlyer · 09-11-2013 1:47pm

chinwag wrote: »

Road signs are for conveying vital information to drivers with minimum distraction.

Anything that would make this communication less effective and less clear is not putting road safety as a priority.

Crowding our signposting with two languages, while attempting to give equal prominence to both languages, has to lead to confusion.

Driving can be taxing enough at times, we don't need more distractions.

It's simply not the place to promote the Irish language further.

Bizarrely enough they do seem to manage both in Wales and Scotland without any bother, where both languages get equal prominence.

As long as these signs are rolled out as and when signs fall due for replacement, as opposed to a full scale campaign, I don't see an issue with it.

Days 298 · 09-11-2013 2:09pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Bizarrely enough they do seem to manage both in Wales and S Orlando without any bother, where both languages get equal prominence.

As long as these signs are rolled out as and when signs fall due for replacement, as opposed to a full scale campaign, I don't see an issue with it.

And bizzarely enough we have road signage here that people are used to and we dont care how the Welsh do things, it doesnt mean we must follow suit. I dont even see the Irish when I look at road signs now. Why make it a word search of spot the English. Don't fix what isntt broken.

And if we are replacing them as they fall due, we will have two different road signage types. That makes no sense. Causing confusion where there should be none is a thing only the Government would do.

Irish is dead. This will do nothing to bring it back to life. It will just cause annoyance to most drivers used to the current fonts. There is a standard font for a reason. Drivers get accustomed to them.

When I drive through a Gaeltacht area they have no problem placing having Irish only signage. Even putting Go Mall near bends rather than actually warn the average English only motorist of the actual bend ahead.

Roads should be about driver convenience not language lobbying and publicity.

SparkySpitfire · 09-11-2013 2:12pm

Come on, have you looked at the signs? You'd want to be a moron to get confused by them. It's just another example of people getting enraged over...well nothing really.

Sheldons Brain · 09-11-2013 2:35pm

Yet another thread on this started, like we need another one.
There is a lot of nonsense on this issue. There is no more or less Irish or English on these signs than the existing ones.

TBH I worry more about the text-only warning signs - I'd like to see internationally understood symbols rather than words (in English or Irish) used for safety warnings like "soft margin" or "road flooded ahead" where possible.

Absolutely. People are getting confused between placename signs and regulatory signs. The latter should be symbolic in almost every case. Yet they are allowing more text creep in. They've introduced the giant exclamation mark hazard sign and then put plates on these warning of bends and the like that should be addressed by an existing symbolic sign. For regulatory signs the solution to the proper balance between Irish and English is to use a symbol only. In some cases a new symbol is needed, but above all the existing symbols have to be used.

BenShermin · 09-11-2013 3:34pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Bizarrely enough they do seem to manage both in Wales and Scotland without any bother, where both languages get equal prominence.

As long as these signs are rolled out as and when signs fall due for replacement, as opposed to a full scale campaign, I don't see an issue with it.

Not to mention Belgium! For example if you're driving from Wallonia to Flanders via Brussels, you'd start off encountering road signs in French only, then you'd cross the langauge border and have Dutch only, then you'd get onto a ring road in the Brussels area and have French and Dutch, before going back into Dutch only. How Belgium's motorway system isn't just one big pile up is beyond me

The only problem I have is that English should be alongside Irish on Gaeltacht road signs, if it's going to bilingual across the country then it should be bilingual there too. To suggest that bilingual road signs are dangerous or confusing in any way is just insulting to people's intelligence IMO.

Richard · 09-11-2013 4:38pm

BenShermin wrote: »

Not to mention Belgium! For example if you're driving from Wallonia to Flanders via Brussels, you'd start off encountering road signs in French only, then you'd cross the langauge border and have Dutch only, then you'd get onto a ring road in the Brussels area and have French and Dutch, before going back into Dutch only. How Belgium's motorway system isn't just one big pile up is beyond me

Especially if you are heading for somewhere with a completely different name like Lille, which is actually Rijsel in Dutch (despite being in France not Belgium).

Jamie2k9 · 09-11-2013 5:12pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Bizarrely enough they do seem to manage both in Wales and Scotland without any bother, where both languages get equal prominence.

As long as these signs are rolled out as and when signs fall due for replacement, as opposed to a full scale campaign, I don't see an issue with it.

In Scotland its just English, on the main primary routes.

I don't think yellow is great for reading at night time, if they do change keep all white names IMO.

That username is already in use. · 09-11-2013 7:00pm

It's great news, I've been eagerly anticipating this one for a while now. The English names are just poor bastardisations of the original anyway. Bound to raise the blood pressure of a few Little Irelanders here but that's a real bonus.

The new designs will only replace old or damaged signage and will make the English translations easier to read by using mixed case and contrast between colours. They will also greatly reduce the effects of halation that plagues current signage.

Ireland’s dual-language road signs Report and recommendations (PDF)

All and all, a far better design which is safer for motorists and the added bonus of promoting our vibrant and living Irish tongue - the first offical language of the State

spank_inferno · 09-11-2013 7:09pm

A 'thriving' language at 1.6% of the population in daily usage.

(we say on an english language forum).

n97 mini · 09-11-2013 8:16pm

I like the new design. I think anglophone monoglots will train themselves to go for the orange text, which I think is a very good idea (i.e. the coloured text).

murphaph · 09-11-2013 9:08pm

I'm not a fan of bilingual signs. I think they should be in English in predominantly English speaking areas and in Irish in the Gaeltacht. However, this will never happen and to be honest I really like the design shown in the article as it eliminates all caps for English and that awful italic used for Irish. These signs are very similar to the ones in Scotland where they sign bilingually there.

Going Forward · 10-11-2013 12:57am

murphaph wrote: »

I'm not a fan of bilingual signs. I think they should be in English in predominantly English speaking areas and in Irish in the Gaeltacht. However, this will never happen and to be honest I really like the design shown in the article as it eliminates all caps for English and that awful italic used for Irish. These signs are very similar to the ones in Scotland where they sign bilingually there.

Have to admit, the one on the left looks worse!

ProudDUB · 10-11-2013 1:38am

They both look perfectly fine, when looked at in a picture on an internet forum. But how user friendly and easy to see are they for the person behind the wheel of a car, on a wet/dark/foggy evening in winter?

I'd put money on the yellowish/brown signage on a blue background being used for the town names in English, being A LOT more difficult to read in poor visibility driving conditions, than the white paint on a blue back ground signage.

But who cares about people missing their exits, or swerving to get into the correct lane at the last minute, or causing accidents, as long as the aul cupla focail police are kept happy. That is what REALLY matters on our nations highways and byways, right? :rolleyes:

SparkySpitfire · 10-11-2013 1:40am

ProudDUB wrote: »

They both look perfectly fine, when looked at in a picture on an internet forum. But how user friendly and easy to see are they for the person behind the wheel of a car, on a wet/dark/foggy evening in winter?

I'd put money on the yellowish/brown paint on a blue back ground being used for the town names in English, being A LOT more difficult to read a dark, rainy night, than the white paint on a blue back ground.

But who cares about people missing their exits, or swerving to get into the correct lane at the last minute, or causing accidents, as long as the aul cupla focail police are kept happy. That is what REALLY matters on our nations highways and byways, right? :rolleyes:

So you're assuming that they didn't have people test these things out when they were designing the sign?

Cool.

Jamie2k9 · 10-11-2013 1:45am

ProudDUB wrote: »

They both look perfectly fine, when looked at in a picture on an internet forum. But how user friendly and easy to see are they for the person behind the wheel of a car, on a wet/dark/foggy evening in winter?

I'd put money on the yellowish/brown signage on a blue background being used for the town names in English, being A LOT more difficult to read in poor visibility driving conditions, than the white paint on a blue back ground signage.

But who cares about people missing their exits, or swerving to get into the correct lane at the last minute, or causing accidents, as long as the aul cupla focail police are kept happy. That is what REALLY matters on our nations highways and byways, right? :rolleyes:

My concern exactly.

So you're assuming that they didn't have people test these things out when they were designing the sign?

Cool.

They have not tested them at all, as the article states they have not being out on a public road at night in poor weather conditions.

SparkySpitfire · 10-11-2013 1:47am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

My concern exactly.

They have not tested them at all, as the article states they have not being out on a public road at night in poor weather conditions.

They may have used materials that they know can be seen in the dark, or tested them in a lab environment etc.

Jamie2k9 · 10-11-2013 1:52am

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

They may have used materials that they know can be seen in the dark, or tested them in a lab environment etc.

If they used a readable material, they wouldn't of picked yellow, where in Europe have yellow motorway signs.....

The NRA didn't come up with the design so hopefully they might cop the problem.

White names are the clearest possible to read in the dark and as safety is supposed to be priority and not satisficing the minority of Irish speakers.

ProudDUB · 10-11-2013 1:52am

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

So you're assuming that they didn't have people test these things out when they were designing the sign?

Cool.

Nope. I am not assuming anything. I am going on articles in our national media that this all came about, due to a survey that was done by Conradh na Gaeilge about the importance of having more Irish road signage. Those folks ain't exactly unbiased. Their very own head honcho was going on about our national identity being all tied up in them & making them less British, as if that is all that matters.

If the RSA & the NRA and transport experts don't have a problem with any of this, then neither do I. However, I do have a problem with it, if the safety of our nations roads are compromised due to politics and, politicians falling over themselves to keep a particular voting bloc happy and, to hell with the rest of us.

SparkySpitfire · 10-11-2013 1:55am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

If they used a readable material, they wouldn't of picked yellow, where in Europe have yellow motorway signs.....

The NRA didn't come up with the design so hopefully they might cop the problem.

How do you know if the materials used to make the signs will make the yellow illegible in the dark? Looks like they picked it cos yellow and white were the most contrasted colours to the dark blue.

If you're really concerned you could shoot off an email to voice your concerns, or wait til they (gradually) come out to see if people report problems so they can fix them before they bring out more.

Your concerns might be well founded for sure, but we dunno yet!

SparkySpitfire · 10-11-2013 1:57am

ProudDUB wrote: »

Nope. I am not assuming anything. I am going on articles in our national media that this all came about, due to a survey that was done by Conradh na Gaelgie about the importance of having more Irish road signage. Those folks ain't exactly unbiased. Their very own head honcho was going on about our national identity being all tied up in them & making them less British, as if that is all that matters.

If the RSA & the NRA and transport experts don't have a problem with any of this, neither do I. However, I do have a problem with it, if the safety of our nations roads are compromised due to politics and, politicians falling over themselves to keep a particular voting bloc happy and, to hell with the rest of us.

I'd like to give them the benefit of the doubt that they'll be legible. If not, I'll be out with you to get them taken down and replaced!

Jamie2k9 · 10-11-2013 2:00am

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

How do you know if the materials used to make the signs will make the yellow illegible in the dark? Looks like they picked it cos yellow and white were the most contrasted colours to the dark blue.

If you're really concerned you could shoot off an email to voice your concerns, or wait til they (gradually) come out to see if people report problems so they can fix them before they bring out more.

Your concerns might be well founded for sure, but we dunno yet!

Maybe but it just seems the NRA and RSA had no input at all going by the articles about the signs. Yellow/White names would work on Green backgrounds but can't see it on Blue at all.

SparkySpitfire · 10-11-2013 2:03am

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Maybe but it just seems the NRA and RSA had no input at all going by the articles about the signs. Yellow/White names would work on Green backgrounds but can't see it on Blue at all.

Yeah maybe! Sure we'll find out soon enough.

*gets pitchfork ready*

Jamie2k9 · 10-11-2013 2:09am

SparkySpitfire wrote: »

Yeah maybe! Sure we'll find out soon enough.

*gets pitchfork ready*

Just looking on the roads forum and they have these colours in Cyprus so maybe its workable but they have the yellow in all capitals and its larger than the while signs but of course weather is very different over here.

Sheldons Brain · 10-11-2013 2:10am

A 'thriving' language at 1.6% of the population in daily usage.

So it is OK to ignore minorities on a numerical basis. That should save a lot of money not having to run the Gay marriage referendum.

The yellow used here doesn't have to be very yellow, it is just a visual clue as to which one is which.

Plan to make road signs 'more Irish'

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