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Catholic mother kills baby from shame

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24

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    #32
    Stercus Accidit
    Registered Users Posts: 8,758 ✭✭✭Stercus Accidit


    The_Minister wrote: »
    Catholicism would condemn the infanticide far more than her being pregnant outside wedlock.

    Catholicism's views are repugnant and should be ignored at all times, they barely manage to get a few basics right and the list of things they get wrong, well, it's about time that cult and all its ilk are treated with the disdain and cynicism they so rightfully deserve.

    Whats that phrase, evil people do evil things, good people do good things, but for a good person to do evil things, it takes religion.

    Directly because of religion or not, I won't argue that, but it makes a pretty swaying indicator of what might have factored into this incident.


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    #33
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Catholicism's views are repugnant and should be ignored at all times, they barely manage to get a few basics right and the list of things they get wrong, well, it's about time that cult and all its ilk are treated with the disdain and cynicism they so rightfully deserve.

    Whats that phrase, evil people do evil things, good people do good things, but for a good person to do evil things, it takes religion.

    Directly because of religion or not, I won't argue that, but it makes a pretty swaying indicator of what might have factored into this incident.

    NO!!!!
    Old, celibate, unmarried virgins should be the leading vocies when it comes to sex, abortion and pregnancy.
    On a serious note, how many women from good old catholic Ireland had abortions due to feelings of shame/sin?


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    #34
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    DTrotter wrote: »
    NO!!!!
    Old, celibate, unmarried virgins should be the leading vocies when it comes to sex, abortion and pregnancy.
    On a serious note, how many women from good old catholic Ireland had abortions due to feelings of shame/sin?

    So to recap you are blaming the Catholic Church for abortions now yep ?


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    #35
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Morlar wrote: »
    So to recap you are blaming the Catholic Church for abortions now yep ?

    No, I'm just asking how much an impact the backward view of single mothers (put forth by the church to an extent) that existed/exists led to women having abortions?


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    #36
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Catholicism's views are repugnant and should be ignored at all times, they barely manage to get a few basics right and the list of things they get wrong, well, it's about time that cult and all its ilk are treated with the disdain and cynicism they so rightfully deserve.

    Which doesn't really matter in this context, seeing as Catholicism, is very much against this sort of thing.

    Sure, you can pull them up on all sorts of other crap, but this isn't one of them.
    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Whats that phrase, evil people do evil things, good people do good things, but for a good person to do evil things, it takes religion.

    How do you explain all the communists who murdered a whole lot of people for the greater good? Do you think they taught themselves to be evil? The problem with your phrase, is that there are plenty of other reason's for Good people to do "evil". All you have to believe is that your right and the end justify the means. Plenty of instances of this through out history.
    Stercus Accidit wrote: »
    Directly because of religion or not, I won't argue that, but it makes a pretty swaying indicator of what might have factored into this incident.

    How so? Doesn't her Religion strenously forbid what she did? The Catholic church is hugely anti-abortion for example, so would hardly be pro killing babies outside the womb. I find it hard to believe that she would be unaware of her churchs position on this.

    Regardless, of this. How do you know her reasoning? All, we know is that her parents are strict Catholics. Thats all we know. Clearly, the daughter wasn't so stict herself, as she has sex outside marriage.

    In fact the article head line is very misleading, as there is no evidence presented for her reasoning at all inside the article. Just comments from her parents. We have no indication at all why she did what she did and this sort of thing isn't actually unknow and a link to similar cases was provided earlier.


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    #37
    Wagon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,119 ✭✭✭Wagon


    jackpalance wrote: »
    A lunatic killed her baby. Catholicism is irrelevant here. And I'm no fan of the church
    Look at their reactions? Mother gave birth in a bathroom and died as a result after killing the child to save it from "shame". The mother would have "hit the roof". She tried to clean daughter because there would me men in the house. Who the hell reacts like that to an emergency?! Who would kill a baby a few minutes old?

    This does have something to do with the teachings of the church. You can get complete loopers regardless of their beliefs but in this case, yes religion is a major factor in it.


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    #38
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    DTrotter wrote: »
    No, I'm just asking how much an impact the backward view of single mothers (put forth by the church to an extent) that existed/exists led to women having abortions?

    So, let me get this straight. You are suggesting that some Women got aboritions due to the Catholics church stance on single mothers. So, we are to assume, that the Women cared enough about what the Catholic church taught about single mothers, to get a abortion, despite the fact that the Catholic church is very much against abortion and they didn't care about there stance on that? I just somehow find it hard to understand your reasoning here. It doesn't really add up.


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    #39
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    DTrotter wrote: »
    No, I'm just asking how much an impact the backward view of single mothers (put forth by the church to an extent) that existed/exists led to women having abortions?

    At some point personal responsibility should come into this.

    Contorting this all into being the Fault of catholicism rather than the individual is a massive cop-out.

    You don't get to NOT follow catholic teaching in the first instance, and, then NOT follow catholic teaching a 2nd time in an attempt to cover the first up - and then blame the whole mess on catholicism.


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    #40
    Maddison
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,594 ✭✭✭Maddison


    I dont believe this has anything to do with religion. Childbirth is hard enough, having childbirth come on when you didnt know you were pregnant in the first place would be extremeley frightening. Normally women have the duration of their pregnancy to get used to the idea of parenthood & to prepare themselves mentally as well as physically for labour. If she had have survived, It could have been seen as temporary insanity.


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    #41
    rororoyourboat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 217 ✭✭rororoyourboat


    What a tragedy.


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    #42
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    wes wrote: »
    So, let me get this straight. You are suggesting that some Women got aboritions due to the Catholics church stance on single mothers. So, we are to assume, that the Women cared enough about what the Catholic church taught about single mothers, to get a abortion, despite the fact that the Catholic church is very much against abortion and they didn't care about there stance on that? I just somehow find it hard to understand your reasoning here. It doesn't really add up.

    No, the women would care about the public perception (why were some single mothers shipped off to institutions and remember the Myers article recently) which would be influenced by the church, celibate men no less. Of course people have abortions for various other reasons.


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    #43
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Morlar wrote: »
    At some point personal responsibility should come into this.

    Contorting this all into being the Fault of catholicism rather than the individual is a massive cop-out.

    You don't get to NOT follow catholic teaching in the first instance, and, then NOT follow catholic teaching a 2nd time in an attempt to cover the first up - and then blame the whole mess on catholicism.

    Not all, are you really trying to tell me the catholic church looked favourably on single mothers and sex outside of marriage and that in the past Irish society had a healthy attitude to sex?


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    #44
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    DTrotter wrote: »
    No, the women would care about the public perception (why were some single mothers shipped off to institutions and remember the Myers article recently) which would be influenced by the church, celibate men no less. Of course people have abortions for various other reasons.

    I get that they would care about people perceptions, but considering the Church's view on abortion, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that would carry a far greater stigma if found out.


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    #45
    Sir Gallagher
    Registered Users Posts: 6,836 ✭✭✭Sir Gallagher


    That's absolutely sickening, just makes me feel sad really.


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    #46
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    netwhizkid wrote: »
    yet I have had several partners,

    No you havnt. Lieing makes baby Jesus cry


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    #47
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    wes wrote: »
    I get that they would care about people perceptions, but considering the Church's view on abortion, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that would carry a far greater stigma if found out.

    Not to open a can of worms but what was the churches offical view on child abuse?
    Too much sweeping stuff under the carpet in Ireland, as long as everything looked good on the outside.
    Women have abortions for various reasons; rape, health, feeling they wouldn't able to provide for the child, birth control and I truly believe the stigma of being a single unmarried mother was one.


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    #48
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    DTrotter wrote: »
    Not all, are you really trying to tell me the catholic church looked favourably on single mothers and sex outside of marriage and that in the past Irish society had a healthy attitude to sex?

    Obviously they do not approve of pre-marital sex, they also dissaprove of abortions.

    Now you can answer my question - Considering the church teachings how is this womans actions in both regards the fault of catholicism ?

    If her actions are based out of a fear of public perception /what her neighbours would say or think well then I would say her values are completely distorted and have nothing to do with actual faith or religion and more with the appearance of same/vanity. In this particular case she was mentally unbalanced as far as I can see. Catholicism did not make her do this.


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    #49
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    wes wrote: »
    I get that they would care about people perceptions, but considering the Church's view on abortion, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that would carry a far greater stigma if found out.

    yes -and here's the point- abortions are rarely found out, they are often kept as guilty secrets.

    whereas it's much harder to conceal a child.

    so therefore, by continuing with a pregnancy and child-rearing, a single woman would be open to much more shame and criticism than if she had had an abortion.


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    #50
    ~me~
    Closed Accounts Posts: 324 ✭✭~me~


    i was a catholic (albeit not a very good one!) and went to mass almost every sunday right up until my 'out of wedlock' child was born and i have to say i was treated really well not only by people who went to church but also the priest and helpers. so i dont think its really an issue these days within most churches. i was only a teenager as well so its not like they assumed i was married or whatever.
    then i realised i was honestly only a catholic as a result of indoctrination (sp?) and did some research and i now find the religion controlling and hypocritical so im an atheist, but my point was not everyone in the church is against single mothers even though its against the religion. and not all single mothers feel as if they'll be banished by the church if they fall pregnant.


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    #51
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    DTrotter wrote: »
    Not to open a can of worms but what was the churches offical view on child abuse?

    I assume they were against it.

    However, there crime was protecting those responsible. Which is something they are clearly guilty of and are rightly condemned for.
    DTrotter wrote: »
    Too much sweeping stuff under the carpet in Ireland, as long as everything looked good on the outside.
    Women have abortions for various reasons; rape, health, feeling they wouldn't able to provide for the child, birth control and I truly believe the stigma of being a single unmarried mother was one.

    Unlike the child abuse, the church has feck all to do with abortions, nor did they hide them or help provide them. In fact they would probably physically stop them if they could get away with it.

    Sorry, I don't buy your reasoning. Its a huge stretch to blame the Catholic church on abortions.


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    #52
    DTrotter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 232 ✭✭DTrotter


    Morlar wrote: »
    Obviously they do not approve of pre-marital sex, they also dissaprove of abortions.

    Now you can answer my question - Considering the church teachings how is this womans actions in both regards the fault of catholicism ?

    If her actions are based out of a fear of public perception /what her neighbours would say or think well then I would say her values are completely distorted and have nothing to do with actual faith or religion and more with the appearance of same/vanity. In this particular case she was mentally unbalanced as far as I can see. Catholicism did not make her do this.

    Well there's a difference between catholocism and the organisation run by self righteous celibate men who obviously didin't give a f** about the vulnerable in Ireland.


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    #53
    philologos
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,479 ✭✭✭✭philologos


    Morlar wrote: »
    Obviously they do not approve of pre-marital sex, they also dissaprove of abortions.

    Now you can answer my question - Considering the church teachings how is this womans actions in both regards the fault of catholicism ?

    If her actions are based out of a fear of public perception /what her neighbours would say or think well then I would say her values are completely distorted and have nothing to do with actual faith or religion and more with the appearance of same/vanity. In this particular case she was mentally unbalanced as far as I can see. Catholicism did not make her do this.

    IMO, I consider bearing a child out of wedlock to be a blessing. Sure the child was produced in circumstances which could be considered unfavourable but there is a lot of hope for the future, and it's a heartening thing to bring another life into the world.

    Edit: I wonder would the reaction on this thread be different if she killed the child while still in the womb?


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    #54
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    sam34 wrote: »
    yes -and here's the point- abortions are rarely found out, they are often kept as guilty secrets.

    whereas it's much harder to conceal a child.

    True enough, but again the option of adoption (go away and have the child elsewhere) would make more sense for a God fearing Catholic.
    sam34 wrote: »
    so therefore, by continuing with a pregnancy and child-rearing, a single woman would be open to much more shame and criticism than if she had had an abortion.

    True enough, but do you actually have any proof this you know actually happened? Its just speculation.

    What we do know, is that people went away to a convent or some place and had the child and gave them up for adoption and came back with no one the wiser. We know of instance of this happening, which seems to have been the preferred Catholic way of handling it.


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    #55
    sam34
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,073 ✭✭✭sam34


    wes wrote: »
    True enough, but again the option of adoption (go away and have the child elsewhere) would make more sense for a God fearing Catholic.



    True enough, but do you actually have any proof this you know actually happened? Its just speculation.

    What we do know, is that people went away to a convent or some place and had the child and gave them up for adoption and came back with no one the wiser. We know of instance of this happening, which seems to have been the preferred Catholic way of handling it.

    going away for the duration of the pregnancy may not always be feasible or practical. and it presumably would involve someone in the family knowing, and the pregnant girl's greatest cause for concern could very well be teh reaction of her own family.

    what do you want proof of? single mothers being frowned on by the church and strict catholics?? im not sure what proof you're looking for. i certainly have witnessed it myself - when (only 6 years ago) a priest refused to baptise my niece because her mother wasnt married.

    there are plenty people out there who have had similar experiences. we've all heard the old biddies whispering and gossiping about single mothers. plenty people will testify to how they were treated in teh magdalene laundries and how corrupt they were made to feel. to say thats just "speculation" is grossly dismissive.


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    #56
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    DTrotter wrote: »
    Well there's a difference between catholocism and the organisation run by self righteous celibate men who obviously didin't give a f** about the vulnerable in Ireland.

    There is a big difference between the teachings and spirit of catholicism (as I see it) and the practices and attitude of certain religious organisations.


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    #57
    ~me~
    Closed Accounts Posts: 324 ✭✭~me~


    sam34 wrote: »
    going away for the duration of the pregnancy may not always be feasible or practical. and it presumably would involve someone in the family knowing, and the pregnant girl's greatest cause for concern could very well be teh reaction of her own family.

    what do you want proof of? single mothers being frowned on by the church and strict catholics?? im not sure what proof you're looking for. i certainly have witnessed it myself - when (only 6 years ago) a priest refused to baptise my niece because her mother wasnt married.

    there are plenty people out there who have had similar experiences. we've all heard the old biddies whispering and gossiping about single mothers. plenty people will testify to how they were treated in teh magdalene laundries and how corrupt they were made to feel. to say thats just "speculation" is grossly dismissive.

    the 'old biddies' that ive come accross have been alot more tolerant than gossiping teenagers to be honest. ive had many old women id never talked to before giving me cards/money/medals for my baby so i think it is 'speculation'. yes, lots of people do frown upon it but in my experience its more the type that go to tea parties/horseriding on a sunday morning than those that go to church. old biddies just see the baby as a blessing not a sin.


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    #58
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    wes wrote: »
    I get that they would care about people perceptions, but considering the Church's view on abortion, I am going to go out on a limb here and say that would carry a far greater stigma if found out.

    Not 25 years ago in Ireland it was routine for young girls who got pregnant to be shipped off somewhere for a few months; from the time that their bump was obvious till after they could have their baby put up for adoption. They would then arrive back and conceal the whole incident (sometimes ad infinitum). Such was the level of shame about having a child outside of marriage.

    You can be sure that there were many who chose an abortion who would not otherwise done so because of the shame our (catholic) society put on them.


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    #59
    Morlar
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,273 ✭✭✭Morlar


    dvpower wrote: »
    You can be sure that there were many who chose an abortion who would not otherwise done so because of the shame our (catholic) society put on them.

    Just out of curiosity do you ascribe ANY degree of personal responsibility to the woman herself for getting pregnant or of deciding to have an abortion in the example you give there ?


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    #60
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    Temporary insanity? More like a physoctic break which would have happened around 5 months when the "baby" started to move around inside her.


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    #61
    DublinWriter
    Registered Users Posts: 9,555 ✭✭✭DublinWriter


    Jakkass wrote: »
    Another Catholic-bashing frenzy. Just when you think it's all over, it begins all over again.
    Turn the other cheek much?


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