Introduction of two way system on Blackthorn Road, Sandyford Industrial Estate

inabina · 29-11-2012 5:26pm

traffic backed up badly already...also on carmenhall road. What are these nutters thinking when they do these plans. Really hope they revert back. Stupid. Madness. but nothing is a surprise in this country.

coylemj · 29-11-2012 5:54pm

Drove through today at 15:30 when it should have been a breeze. I drove south-east along Blackthorn Ave. with the Luas line on my left heading for the roundabout at the end of Brewery Road. At the new traffic lights at the junction with Blackthorn Road I was stopped for exactly two minutes and this lead to a massive buildup behind me. Previously the traffic coming down the hill on Blackthorn Road could turn right straight into a lane dedicated to them, they could then seamlessly merge into the left lane if they were heading to the roundabout at the end of Brewery Road. Now both sets of traffic have to go through a brand new bottleneck in the form of a set of traffic lights which wasn't required before.

I pity any retailers or shops in the estate, especially the Chinese Szechuan Restaurant because he is going to lose out badly. Anybody with any sense will avoid the place until they put things back to the way they were.

markpb · 29-11-2012 8:54pm

Absolutely no traffic anywhere in the estate at 5:45 when I was leaving this evening.

omega666 · 30-11-2012 1:50am

markpb wrote: »

Absolutely no traffic anywhere in the estate at 5:45 when I was leaving this evening.

which estate are you talking about?
Because I left at 5:40 and while not as bad as earlier in the week there was still a delay.

RosieJoe · 30-11-2012 11:55am

markpb wrote: »

Absolutely no traffic anywhere in the estate at 5:45 when I was leaving this evening.

omega666 wrote: »

which estate are you talking about?
Because I left at 5:40 and while not as bad as earlier in the week there was still a delay.

I left at 5:50 and there wasn't any delay

Larbre34 · 30-11-2012 12:42pm

coylemj wrote: »

Drove through today at 15:30 when it should have been a breeze. I drove south-east along Blackthorn Ave. with the Luas line on my left heading for the roundabout at the end of Brewery Road. At the new traffic lights at the junction with Blackthorn Road I was stopped for exactly two minutes and this lead to a massive buildup behind me. Previously the traffic coming down the hill on Blackthorn Road could turn right straight into a lane dedicated to them, they could then seamlessly merge into the left lane if they were heading to the roundabout at the end of Brewery Road. Now both sets of traffic have to go through a brand new bottleneck in the form of a set of traffic lights which wasn't required before.

I pity any retailers or shops in the estate, especially the Chinese Szechuan Restaurant because he is going to lose out badly. Anybody with any sense will avoid the place until they put things back to the way they were.

Not a snowballs chance of that.

Its the same with any traffic system change, and God knows there have been enough of them in and around Dublin for the last 20 years, its a few days of chaos until the tweaking is done and then the new pattern settles in, I know its inconvenient for people but you'd think the world was ending. I did get stuck in it the first evening but ive adjusted my routine a bit and itll be much improved within the week

People might as well get used to the fact that the thrust of all Government and state body policy is to put the car at the bottom of the food chain and more and more road space and priority is going to be handed back to buses and bikes and other facilities so it aint ever going to get any better for the private driver. For instance, when the work starts on the Luas connector in the city next year you will effectively not be able to take a car through the centre of town any more and forever after that. Time to break out the Lycra.

homer911 · 30-11-2012 1:12pm

I agree that the new arrangements need a bedding in period, but there are things that they have done wrong and things they can fix immediately

Sitting for a full 2 minutes at the lights beside the luas (with no queue) is unacceptable - they can and should fix this NOW
The lack of co-ordination between these lights and the toucan lights beside Stillorgan Luas stop is unacceptable
The left filter lane after MS is ludicrously short, and the left filter option is useless when there are four or more cars waiting to turn right
Turning left here is dangerous - while they set the stop line for the opposing right turning lane (when you come around this corner) further back, the lane here is far too narrow and I have yet to witness a car take this corner without driving over the solid lines - it could so easily have been made wider with so much space on the side of the road
The absence of a pull-in spot for the Air Coach and buses is unforgivable

Zascar · 30-11-2012 1:28pm

Very well said Homer, my sentiments exactly, there are a few more to add also I'll post later...
AS already said, demanding they revert back is a waste of time - but fixing the above mentioned problems is perfectly achievable...

coylemj · 30-11-2012 6:09pm

Well if they do change the lights so that they operate according to demand and not like old clockwork driven (no flexibility) lights, let's hope that unlike DLR Co. Co. they put wide enough sensors at the lights. The sensors designed to detect people turning right at the junction of Newtownpark Ave and the Monkstown bypass and at Deansrange Cross are way too narrow. If even a VW Polo or similar small car aims properly, they can straddle the sensor without either the left or right wheels hitting it so the lights think there's nobody turning right and only one car gets to go through, no filter for the people behind.

patrickbrophy18 · 01-12-2012 6:46pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

People might as well get used to the fact that the thrust of all Government and state body policy is to put the car at the bottom of the food chain and more and more road space and priority is going to be handed back to buses and bikes and other facilities so it aint ever going to get any better for the private driver. For instance, when the work starts on the Luas connector in the city next year you will effectively not be able to take a car through the centre of town any more and forever after that. Time to break out the Lycra.

Unfortunately, buses will also get held up by the backwards engineering of the road network because they also use the same roads as cars for the most part. In case you didn't notice, there are grass patches between the pedestrian paths and the road itself which would be better suited to the paving of cyclist facilities. This means that the road shape would have remained the same without turning cyclists into obstacles. Eventually (when the economy recovers), underpasses could be provided for pedestrians and cyclists resulting in a conflict free zone for all road users. Hidden cameras and lighting could be installed in the construction phase to ensure that ruffians don't intimidate pedestrians and cyclists using the underpasses.

My sympathy goes out to the motorists who use the M50 to get to Sandyford because they will have to get up earlier to beat the previously non-existent tailbacks. This essentially defeats the purpose of the M50 by adding time to their journeys off it. Moreover, slowing down traffic at crucial points, particularly between major business hubs will put a strain on the flow of business. The purpose of wider roads is to facilitate the smoother flow of business between one hub and another by reducing the journey length time-wise. This creates a stronger link between business hubs and places in general.

While such roads would be used by the private car in the short term, it is hoped that public transport (preferably in the form of bus rapid transit) would be deployed to these roads to reduce car usage in the long term. With traffic calming (pretty much like that in Sandyford), it's merely bus transit and not bus rapid transit. On the broader spectrum, it is a complete joke that it takes an hour in most cases for a bus route to complete a trip that is less than 10 miles in length. This should take half an hour at most. This is one of the main reasons why I strongly disagree with traffic calming on any portion of such routes because it will make them more time consuming. Hence, less attractive. I do acknowledge the fact that excessive stops and neighborhood detours are a major factor as well. Either-way, if the money is not there to create a metro or underground DART system, we should be helping existing bus routes to achieve rapid transit status.

Larbre34 · 02-12-2012 11:38am

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Unfortunately, buses will also get held up by the backwards engineering of the road network because they also use the same roads as cars for the most part. In case you didn't notice, there are grass patches between the pedestrian paths and the road itself which would be better suited to the paving of cyclist facilities. This means that the road shape would have remained the same without turning cyclists into obstacles. Eventually (when the economy recovers), underpasses could be provided for pedestrians and cyclists resulting in a conflict free zone for all road users. Hidden cameras and lighting could be installed in the construction phase to ensure that ruffians don't intimidate pedestrians and cyclists using the underpasses.

My sympathy goes out to the motorists who use the M50 to get to Sandyford because they will have to get up earlier to beat the previously non-existent tailbacks. This essentially defeats the purpose of the M50 by adding time to their journeys off it. Moreover, slowing down traffic at crucial points, particularly between major business hubs will put a strain on the flow of business. The purpose of wider roads is to facilitate the smoother flow of business between one hub and another by reducing the journey length time-wise. This creates a stronger link between business hubs and places in general.

While such roads would be used by the private car in the short term, it is hoped that public transport (preferably in the form of bus rapid transit) would be deployed to these roads to reduce car usage in the long term. With traffic calming (pretty much like that in Sandyford), it's merely bus transit and not bus rapid transit. On the broader spectrum, it is a complete joke that it takes an hour in most cases for a bus route to complete a trip that is less than 10 miles in length. This should take half an hour at most. This is one of the main reasons why I strongly disagree with traffic calming on any portion of such routes because it will make them more time consuming. Hence, less attractive. I do acknowledge the fact that excessive stops and neighborhood detours are a major factor as well. Either-way, if the money is not there to create a metro or underground DART system, we should be helping existing bus routes to achieve rapid transit status.

When BRT is rolled out over the next 20 years as a cheap LUAS-lite it will be put on dedicated corridors laid at the expense of existing road space, so all your other preferred business and private traffic will suffer anyway. The NTA have a draft objective to take a lane off the Stillorgan Road to do it. Every single urban traffic plan and objective from now on is to disadvantage the private car, within 10 years that will be aggressively so

patrickbrophy18 · 02-12-2012 10:24pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

When BRT is rolled out over the next 20 years as a cheap LUAS-lite it will be put on dedicated corridors laid at the expense of existing road space, so all your other preferred business and private traffic will suffer anyway. The NTA have a draft objective to take a lane off the Stillorgan Road to do it. Every single urban traffic plan and objective from now on is to disadvantage the private car, within 10 years that will be aggressively so

The problem with all of this is the word in bold. Let's go ahead and implement backwards measures and make it less attractive to do business :rolleyes:. Oh, and while we're at it, let's put a strain on those who actually make a contribution to our economy :rolleyes:. The sad fact is that those who benefit most from such measures are often careless, useless, self-righteous sponges or socialists who revel in the destruction of actual progress. In a time of economic down turn, the last thing we should be doing is adopting policies which cater for such parasites.

Going by the style of your post Larbre34, you obviously agree with the works done in Sandyford Industrial Estate and don't care what effect traffic calming has to the accessibility of business centers. Any money spent disadvantaging the car is such a waste because it will obviously have an impact on bus corridors. I certainly don't think improvements to infrastructure should be done at the expense of anyone. For example, I think if infrastructure is to be improved, it should be for all road users.

Measures such as those in Sandyford are one sided and backward which is a typical Irish solution given that backwardness is still very much so prevalent in our culture today. It makes me embarrassed to be Irish. It's no wonder so many intelligent people are emigrating because we keep on adopting counter-productive laws, policies and measures.

inabina · 02-12-2012 10:34pm

Does anybody know what the logic was for making this 2 way? Could they have implemented cycle lanes without making it 2 way? the introduction of the 2 way system is only offering a second route for traffic to face the beacon hotel bottle neck.. traffic from the area already has multiple options for reaching the beacon hotel area and M50. I just don't get that logic and I know the area well from working in the estate.

Was there a demand from businesses in the area (Des Kelly, Brooks etc.) perhaps?

melekalikimaka · 02-12-2012 11:02pm

i work there, things needed to improve, for one theres barely any bus service in there, luas is ok service, its the idiots who go through westwood that hold me up the most, been tempted to get there early and padlock the gates some mornings, its not a road to be used as it is by people trying to get into the estate

Cookie_Monster · 02-12-2012 11:38pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The problem with all of this is the word in bold. Let's go ahead and implement backwards measures and make it less attractive to do business :rolleyes:.

it's not less attractive to business. It means less traffic on the roads so less delay for trucks and shipments. It means more staff using PT or cycling meaning a business can improve it's carbon footprint and provide a positive statement to its customers / shareholders about sustainability and the less cars on the road improves the local area visually, air quality wise and socially.

patrickbrophy18 · 03-12-2012 12:03am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

it's not less attractive to business. It means less traffic on the roads so less delay for trucks and shipments. It means more staff using PT or cycling meaning a business can improve it's carbon footprint and provide a positive statement to its customers / shareholders about sustainability and the less cars on the road improves the local area visually, air quality wise and socially.

Cookie_Monster, do you not agree though that infrastructure improvements in areas like Sandyford should make journey's for those using public transport faster by reducing journey lengths?

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for reducing the carbon footprint. However, with the way the various councils are going about it at the moment, you'd swear that bicycles were the one and only solution. While they are entirely fuel efficient and excellent for health, I think public transport has a far more promising future in terms of reducing car usage due to their mechanically propelled nature.

Larbre34, I was in a bad mood when I posted that last reply and I lashed out at you unnecessarily and I'm sorry. I don't disagree with everything you said in your latest post on this thread as the Stillorgan Road does indeed have the space for a brilliant BRT at three lanes in width each way. The unfortunate thing is that traffic calming measures in the Dun Laoghaire burrough anyway are having a negative impact on journey times for buses.

monument · 03-12-2012 12:17am

General question: How many people here are aware that the changes are a part of a compensative plan for the area which already went out to public consultation and has the support of most stakeholders?

@ patrickbrophy the rest of this post is only aimed at you, as here and elsewhere you are directly or indirectly claiming to know a lot about traffic management. It seems you're some sort of expert... It's clear you're jumping the gun with your anti-cycling ranting. Why?...

Reason 1:

All major traffic changes need between a few days to a few weeks (or more) before people get used to them and/or for tweeks to be made.

There's examples of this happening where the focus is to get cars moving faster. It happened recently in Ballina in Co Mayo when a two way system was changed to a one-way system. Everybody complained about the traffic but the traffic quickly settled back down after a short time.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Unfortunately, buses will also get held up by the backwards engineering of the road network because they also use the same roads as cars for the most part. In case you didn't notice, there are grass patches between the pedestrian paths and the road itself which would be better suited to the paving of cyclist facilities. This means that the road shape would have remained the same without turning cyclists into obstacles. Eventually (when the economy recovers), underpasses could be provided for pedestrians and cyclists resulting in a conflict free zone for all road users. Hidden cameras and lighting could be installed in the construction phase to ensure that ruffians don't intimidate pedestrians and cyclists using the underpasses.

My sympathy goes out to the motorists who use the M50 to get to Sandyford because they will have to get up earlier to beat the previously non-existent tailbacks. This essentially defeats the purpose of the M50 by adding time to their journeys off it. Moreover, slowing down traffic at crucial points, particularly between major business hubs will put a strain on the flow of business. The purpose of wider roads is to facilitate the smoother flow of business between one hub and another by reducing the journey length time-wise. This creates a stronger link between business hubs and places in general.

While such roads would be used by the private car in the short term, it is hoped that public transport (preferably in the form of bus rapid transit) would be deployed to these roads to reduce car usage in the long term. With traffic calming (pretty much like that in Sandyford), it's merely bus transit and not bus rapid transit. On the broader spectrum, it is a complete joke that it takes an hour in most cases for a bus route to complete a trip that is less than 10 miles in length. This should take half an hour at most. This is one of the main reasons why I strongly disagree with traffic calming on any portion of such routes because it will make them more time consuming. Hence, less attractive. I do acknowledge the fact that excessive stops and neighborhood detours are a major factor as well. Either-way, if the money is not there to create a metro or underground DART system, we should be helping existing bus routes to achieve rapid transit status.

Reason 2:

A. The changes are not just for cyclists or people on foot, but aimed at maximising the traffic flows in and out of the business park.

B. Bus lanes are included in the changes to the business park under the Sandyford Urban Framework Plan. So:

Did you know bus priority was included but ranted about cyclists anyway? OR,
Did did you not have a clue about the plans and decided to use buses as a way to attack cyclists?

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The problem with all of this is the word in bold. Let's go ahead and implement backwards measures and make it less attractive to do business :rolleyes:. Oh, and while we're at it, let's put a strain on those who actually make a contribution to our economy :rolleyes:. The sad fact is that those who benefit most from such measures are often careless, useless, self-righteous sponges or socialists who revel in the destruction of actual progress. In a time of economic down turn, the last thing we should be doing is adopting policies which cater for such parasites.

Going by the style of your post Larbre34, you obviously agree with the works done in Sandyford Industrial Estate and don't care what effect traffic calming has to the accessibility of business centers. Any money spent disadvantaging the car is such a waste because it will obviously have an impact on bus corridors. I certainly don't think improvements to infrastructure should be done at the expense of anyone. For example, I think if infrastructure is to be improved, it should be for all road users.

Measures such as those in Sandyford are one sided and backward which is a typical Irish solution given that backwardness is still very much so prevalent in our culture today. It makes me embarrassed to be Irish. It's no wonder so many intelligent people are emigrating because we keep on adopting counter-productive laws, policies and measures.

Reason 3:

You might be claiming it was a "bad mood" but really you're showing your true colours by trying to link types of people you don't like with people who choice a modes of transport you don't like to see prioritised, and your basic name calling.

I put some bits in bold because you seem to really like bold bits for some reason

markpb · 03-12-2012 2:15pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

The sad fact is that those who benefit most from such measures are often careless, useless, self-righteous sponges or socialists who revel in the destruction of actual progress. In a time of economic down turn, the last thing we should be doing is adopting policies which cater for such parasites.

Awesome post, some superb arguments made there :-)

homer911 · 03-12-2012 5:43pm

Latest post from DLRCOCO

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,8918,en.html

(Their graphic is terrible!)

elleelle19 · 03-12-2012 5:55pm

The Bus Gate restrictions on Carmanhall Road have been removed and motorists from this area can now exit directly onto Blackthorn Drive (via the Beacon Retail Area and Dunnes Stores)

It's about time they took down the restrictions at Dunnes, don't think I have ever even seen a bus go through there

Zascar · 03-12-2012 6:00pm

Everyone just ignored it anyway..

03-12-2012 6:39pm

Zascar wrote: »

Everyone just ignored it anyway..

Yeah, i had no idea. I used to exit that way the odd time.

The green light for the turn on blackthorn road is now much longer which has improved things.

The two way system is still an accident waiting to happen. I was looking out the window at lunch when one of the road workers began to remove the cones for the first time. Literally as he removed the second cone a Merc drove in the wrong lane and had to jam on and pull into the left.

Dubl07 · 03-12-2012 7:27pm

elleelle19 wrote: »

It's about time they took down the restrictions at Dunnes, don't think I have ever even seen a bus go through there

Zascar wrote: »

Everyone just ignored it anyway..

Those of us who tended to obey the signage and wanted to exercise our right of way coming out of the Beacon beside Roche Bobois took our lives in our hands. Quite apart from the no-through-road, traffic abjectly ignores the speed limit and there frequently seem to be vans parked to the right there as you exit, blocking visibility.

I was in the estate today and gave up on turning right onto Blackthorn Road after ten or fifteen minutes. Instead I turned left, looped right round via the hospital and down to the Luas to get to Aldi. Pain in the behind.

monument · 03-12-2012 7:41pm

homer911 wrote: »

Latest post from DLRCOCO

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,8918,en.html

(Their graphic is terrible!)

Yeah, it really does not look like something for public consumption. Looks more like a map from deap within a technical document.

monument · 03-12-2012 7:42pm

homer911 wrote: »

Latest post from DLRCOCO

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/newsevents/latestnews/title,8918,en.html

(Their graphic is terrible!)

Yeah, it really does not look like something for public consumption. Looks more like a map from deap within a technical document.

patrickbrophy18 · 03-12-2012 7:46pm

monument wrote: »

@ patrickbrophy the rest of this post is only aimed at you, as here and elsewhere you are directly or indirectly claiming to know a lot about traffic management. It seems you're some sort of expert... It's clear you're jumping the gun with your anti-cycling ranting. Why?...

I'm not anti-cycling as it is fuel efficient and very healthy. On the other hand, I'm anti "turn the clock back solutions:rolleyes:" which is exactly the case in Sandyford Industrial Estate and elsewhere. They could have easily used the green patches on both sides of the road to install cycle lanes instead of taking away the actual road space for said installation. This way, the road geometry and function (i.e. one-way system) stays the same. The following sample map shows more or less what I'm talking about:

Blue: Cobblestone zebra crossings to improve safety for pedestrians.
Orange: Shared cyclist and pedestrian crossing path without cobblestone.
Red: Off road outer cycle path between pedestrian path and road.

monument wrote: »

Reason 1:

All major traffic changes need between a few days to a few weeks (or more) before people get used to them and/or for tweeks to be made.

There's examples of this happening where the focus is to get cars moving faster. It happened recently in Ballina in Co Mayo when a two way system was changed to a one-way system. Everybody complained about the traffic but the traffic quickly settled back down after a short time.

In the Ballina example above, it can only have been an improvement as I can only guess that the former two way roads were not wide enough for bi-directional traffic. One-way roads often cut out the complications involved in two way traffic. This includes the tailbacks caused by right and left turning traffic flow and an easier, comprehensive facilitation of crossroads and other branching roads and lanes. This results in less traffic signal permutations whereby a lot more time can be redistributed back to the green man offering pedestrians more crossing opportunities and hence priority. Ergo, it's a win-win situation for all.

monument wrote: »

Reason 2:

A. The changes are not just for cyclists or people on foot, but aimed at maximising the traffic flows in and out of the business park.

B. Bus lanes are included in the changes to the business park under the Sandyford Urban Framework Plan. So:
Did you know bus priority was included but ranted about cyclists anyway? OR,

Did did you not have a clue about the plans and decided to use buses as a way to attack cyclists?

In this particular thread, we are talking about Blackthorn Road where the backwards engineering in question was carried out. I saw the proposed layout from their website which didn't include a bus lane on Blackthorn Road despite the fact that it is used by the 114 bus. I can't see a bus lane on this map here. Also, the council have decided to place cycle lanes on the road when there was more than enough space on the green patches for the provision of a completely segregated cycle path. The map I provided above shows how this could have been achieved.

monument wrote: »

Reason 3:

You might be claiming it was a "bad mood" but really you're showing your true colours by trying to link types of people you don't like with people who choice a modes of transport you don't like to see prioritised, and your basic name calling.

I put some bits in bold because you seem to really like bold bits for some reason

I have to admit that the small type face made me laugh

. I was in a bad mood at the time of my reply two posts ago whether you believe it or not. Anyway, I have no gripe with road users in general. I do have a gripe with irresponsible ones and this includes irresponsible motorists too.

Larbre34 · 04-12-2012 1:15am

markpb wrote: »

Awesome post, some superb arguments made there :-)

indeed, makes Hitler look like a centrist does our Patrick

sk8board · 05-12-2012 9:51pm

how have these changes been working out for the 9-5 commuters - how long does it take to get from Microsoft area to the M50?

Paddy

monument · 05-12-2012 10:46pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I'm not anti-cycling as it is fuel efficient and very healthy. On the other hand, I'm anti "turn the clock back solutions:rolleyes:" which is exactly the case in Sandyford Industrial Estate and elsewhere. They could have easily used the green patches on both sides of the road to install cycle lanes instead of taking away the actual road space for said installation. This way, the road geometry and function (i.e. one-way system) stays the same. The following sample map shows more or less what I'm talking about:.......

Problems with that are as follows:

They are not reversing the flow of general traffic for cycling. Contra-flow cycle lanes could be done without changing the traffic flow. The aim is also to change flows in and out of the estate -- including to push or force some traffic on to underutilised roads and away from the busier roads, and optimising exit and entry points. One-way everywhere isn't always best for traffic.
Even if we did not have the above problem listed... The designers are almost exclusively working with the current road, which is a low cost solution. Your solution on the other hand, has huge cost implications.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

In the Ballina example above, it can only have been an improvement as I can only guess that the former two way roads were not wide enough for bi-directional traffic....[/B].

Wrong.

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I have to admit that the small type face made me laugh . I was in a bad mood at the time of my reply two posts ago whether you believe it or not. Anyway, I have no gripe with road users in general. I do have a gripe with irresponsible ones and this includes irresponsible motorists too.

We'll agree to disagree on this but I maintain you showed your true colours -- everybody else can make up their own minds.

patrickbrophy18 · 05-12-2012 11:56pm

monument wrote: »

They are not reversing the flow of general traffic for cycling.

Duly noted monument. The function of the road is entirely different though with cycle lanes in parts.

monument wrote: »

Contra-flow cycle lanes could be done without changing the traffic flow.

I've never understood the purpose of contra-flow cycle lanes. Would that not be more dangerous for cyclists?

monument wrote: »

The aim is also to change flows in and out of the estate -- including to push or force some traffic on to underutilised roads and away from the busier roads, and optimising exit and entry points.

I can appreciate this alright. In essence, it creates a more even distribution of traffic around the estate. In fact, a CPO was made around the corner from this road for a new stretch of road. I wonder if this has anything to do with it?

monument wrote: »

One-way everywhere isn't always best for traffic.

I agree there too. It could become very problematic if huge detours were being made. One-way systems are usually implemented in heavy traffic conditions where parallel roads exist in close proximity with ample connector lanes for turning around.

monument wrote: »

Even if we did not have the above problem listed... The designers are almost exclusively working with the current road, which is a low cost solution.

I understand this as on-road cycle lanes only require a paint job on the tarmac with bicycle symbols on it. Depending on the condition of the tarmac, it might need partial or complete resurfacing to minimize turbulence and other discomforts experienced by cyclists. As a matter of interest, how much to road signs cost to make?

monument wrote: »

Your solution on the other hand, has huge cost implications.

How goes that?

Bar Blackthorn Drive, every other road in Sandyford Industrial Estate has grass patches between the pedestrian path and the roads themselves. According to Google Earth, most of them are well over 2 meters in width which would be perfect for a relatively extensive series of spacious segregated cycle paths. There are grass patches that are 4 meters in width which could accommodate two way cycle tracks.

Having said all of that, the collective cost of doing this to all roads in the estate would probably be tens of millions. Nevertheless, breaking a project like this into small sub-projects over a 10 - 15 year period shouldn't incur a huge annual cost. Then again, that's just my opinion.

monument wrote: »

Wrong.

My bad!:D

I've only been through Ballina once and that was on my way back from Westport. I'll take your word for it!;)

ted1 · 06-12-2012 7:04pm

A contra flow lane may be safer, as cyclists see on coming traffic as oppose to traffic coming from the rear.

omb0wyn5ehpij9 · 06-12-2012 11:32pm

On the way home frmo work this evening I saw somebody in an Audi jeep drive go down Arkle road from Carmanhall road, drive up and over the footpath/grass verge at the end of the road and then straight onto Blackthorn Avenue!

Dubl07 · 06-12-2012 11:34pm

BDJW wrote: »

On the way home frmo work this evening I saw somebody in an Audi jeep drive go down Arkle road from Carmanhall road, drive up and over the footpath/grass verge at the end of the road and then straight onto Blackthorn Avenue!

Anarchy! Hurray!!!

patrickbrophy18 · 07-12-2012 12:16am

BDJW wrote: »

On the way home frmo work this evening I saw somebody in an Audi jeep drive go down Arkle road from Carmanhall road, drive up and over the footpath/grass verge at the end of the road and then straight onto Blackthorn Avenue!

There's no excuse for that at all. It sound's like the driver was either over the limit or was generally a dangerously s&*t driver. He/she should count themselves lucky that no-one was critically injured or even worse, killed in the process. For his/her sake, I hope the rest of their journey went a hell of a lot smoother than that and more importantly, that nobody fell victim to the drivers reckless behavior. If I was there, I would have taken down the number plate and reported the incident to the guards.

07-12-2012 12:30am

BDJW wrote: »

On the way home frmo work this evening I saw somebody in an Audi jeep drive go down Arkle road from Carmanhall road, drive up and over the footpath/grass verge at the end of the road and then straight onto Blackthorn Avenue!

It would actually be great if that was an exit. Instead everyone coming out of the two Atrium buildings car park has to head one way into a bottleneck.

RE*AC*TOR · 07-12-2012 11:42am

Colleague of mine was hit by another motorist turning in the "new" wrong direction on the Blackthorn Rd.

monument · 10-12-2012 12:42am

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

Duly noted monument. The function of the road is entirely different though with cycle lanes in parts.

I've never understood the purpose of contra-flow cycle lanes. Would that not be more dangerous for cyclists?

I can appreciate this alright. In essence, it creates a more even distribution of traffic around the estate. In fact, a CPO was made around the corner from this road for a new stretch of road. I wonder if this has anything to do with it?

I agree there too. It could become very problematic if huge detours were being made. One-way systems are usually implemented in heavy traffic conditions where parallel roads exist in close proximity with ample connector lanes for turning around.

I understand this as on-road cycle lanes only require a paint job on the tarmac with bicycle symbols on it. Depending on the condition of the tarmac, it might need partial or complete resurfacing to minimize turbulence and other discomforts experienced by cyclists. As a matter of interest, how much to road signs cost to make?

How goes that?

Bar Blackthorn Drive, every other road in Sandyford Industrial Estate has grass patches between the pedestrian path and the roads themselves. According to Google Earth, most of them are well over 2 meters in width which would be perfect for a relatively extensive series of spacious segregated cycle paths. There are grass patches that are 4 meters in width which could accommodate two way cycle tracks.

Having said all of that, the collective cost of doing this to all roads in the estate would probably be tens of millions. Nevertheless, breaking a project like this into small sub-projects over a 10 - 15 year period shouldn't incur a huge annual cost. Then again, that's just my opinion.

My bad!:D

I've only been through Ballina once and that was on my way back from Westport. I'll take your word for it!;)

Quick reply:

Contra-flow is used to allow bicycles / buses etc to go against the general flow of traffic when you don't have the space to allow all the traffic to go two way or where you don't want all traffic to go two way (it could be you want traffic to flow differently or you want to restrict it etc).

Contra-flow has a good safety record. When done even half right, there shoud be no safety issue.

Turning green area into a cycle path, footpath or a general road lane is a lot more costly than just painting lines and putting up signs to rework the road space you have. When digging up green space to change it you are likely to have extra planning costs, extra material costs, extra man power costs, extra equipment costs, more costs related to utilities, waste costs etc.

Irish and Proud · 11-12-2012 12:40am

Zascar wrote: »

I left way after 6pm tonight on purpose, usually by this time its pretty free but it was still at a standstill. The length of the slip road to turn left towards the luas tracks is about 5m, ridiculous, they should have brought it way back. Then the sequence of the lights to turn right towards Sandyford has got even worse!! Not kidding, the right filter light is green for 5 seconds. One guy was slow off the mark, got beeped, and at least 4 cars then proceeded to break the red and go through anyway. Do these idiots not realise that making a stupid sequence makes people do silly things, increasing the changes of an accident? Honestly we should demand a proper explanation of what this was done, someone should hang for this monstrosity...

The short left lane! - You have the National Transport Authority (NTA) and their National Cycle Manual spec to thank for that - the NTA do not want left turn lanes any longer than 30m in Urban Areas. There's a much better way devised by the Dutch for handling motorists and cyclists at junctions - my feeling is that the NTA are just anti-car and are using cyclists as an excuse for their anti-car measures. The type of junction just built in Sandyford is no longer recommended in Holland - the left turning motorists should be in a separate lane and on a different phase to other traffic movements so that cyclists can cross the left turning traffic path (at the junction) safely. With that done, the length of the left lane should not make any difference to cyclists as they would remain to the left all the way to the junction where they would be phased in properly.

lechiennoir · 12-12-2012 11:21am

My heart goes out to anyone commuting to the Sandyford Industrial Estate by car. The place is an absolute catastrophe.

wally79 · 18-12-2012 6:06pm

I think at least part of the problem can be traced back to the clever idea to bring the luas bridge down on the bewleys side of the road rather than extending it over one of the main sandyford exits.

I am no engineer but wouldnt it have been possible and sensible not to put a luas crossing on such a busy junction?

Larbre34 · 19-12-2012 2:44pm

wally79 wrote: »

I am no engineer but wouldnt it have been possible and sensible not to put a luas crossing on such a busy junction?

Possible, yes, sensible, no. Elevating Luas at that location would have been prohibitively costly and intrusive.

I'm not sure people really understand that the private car is number 5 on a priority list of 5 transport modes, it is overt national policy and it will continue to be disadvantaged in order to provide even incremental improvements to rail, bus, pedestrian or cyclist.

Zascar · 19-12-2012 3:01pm

It seems to have settled down now but it still takes ages to get out from the Arkel / Carmanhall Road at 5-6pm. There seems to be so much extra traffic coming down the Blackthorn Road. The road towards the Roundaboud looks like a nightmare too

GreeBo · 19-12-2012 3:11pm

Why on earth is the lane for turning left so short?
5 cars waiting to turn right and no one can move on the road, yet there is ample room to extend the turn left lane for another 50m.

Also will there be anyone moving on the cars/taxis etc that stop outside microsoft picking people up every evening at rush hour? Its no longer easy to just pass them now with oncoming traffic...

19-12-2012 4:25pm

Just got an email from DLR traffic:
'Sandyford Business Park – Current Traffic Concerns
Dún Laoghaire – Rathdown County Council has recently completed a number of
improvements to the footpaths, road surfacing and accessibility measures for
pedestrians and cyclists, as well as upgrading a number of signalised traffic
junctions, into and within the Sandyford Business Park.
These modifications are based on the Mobility Policies and proposals outlined in
the Council’s Development Plan 2010 – 2016 and further detailed in the
Sandyford Urban Framework Plan 2011 – 2016. The over-arching objective is to
alter the industrial appearance of the Estate to a Business Park and in so doing,
introduce more sustainable transport and mobility measures. This in turn will
provide a more user friendly and safer environment for all.
Included in these changes was the reverting of the short section of Blackthorn
Road, between Burton Hall Road and Blackthorn Avenue, from one-way to twoway
traffic. This was introduced on Wednesday, 28th November 2012.
The rationale behind this change is to improve permeability for all road users
internally within Sandyford Business Park. Figures, to date, show that over 1,000
cars on a daily basis are turning up from Blackthorn Avenue into Blackthorn Road,
with the majority of cars accessing the businesses along the roadway section
before the junction with Burton Hall Road. The highest recorded figures, to date,
were on 11/12/2012 when 173 cars turned up Blackthorn Road between 8.00am
and 9.00am, and reached a daily total of 1,126 cars.
In addition the modifications to the road layout on Blackthorn Road, was as a
response to the many complaints received about traffic speeding and crisscrossing,
as drivers approach Blackthorn Avenue, which in turn made it very
dangerous for pedestrians to cross the roadway safely. Likewise, concerns were
expressed about the lack of pedestrian priority at Burton Hall Road and
Blackthorn Avenue junctions.
Like all works undertaken by the Traffic Section, post – construction monitoring is
on-going to measure the affects of the changes and to address any problems
arising from the modifications carried out.
In Sandyford this monitoring is by way of the four traffic control cameras, plus
on-site recording of journey times from various locations within the Estate as well
as comments received from the Sandyford Business District Association and
directly from local businesses and employees.
The feedback would seem to indicate that the new measures have improved
internal traffic permeability generally and is providing increased safety for
pedestrians, particularly the 6,000 approximate daily users of the Luas service.
However, while the new junction at Blackthorn Road / Blackthorn Avenue is
handling over 1,200 cars between 5.00pm and 6.00pm, with recorded figures of
925 cars approaching from Blackthorn Road and over 350 cars from Blackthorn
Avenue / Stillorgan Luas stop direction, strong concerns have been received in
relation to the traffic flows through the Estate during evening peak.
The worst affected area is the roadway and businesses off Burton Hall Road,
which in turn is having a knock-on affect on other areas, most notably between
5.00pm and 5.45pm. The problem is compounded by the high volume of traffic
accessing Sandyford Business Park via the Leopardstown Roundabout.
Recorded journey times show that trips from Arena Road to the Beacon junction
via Blackthorn Road, Benildus Avenue and Drummartin Link Road range between
8 to 10 minutes before 5.00pm to over 20 minutes during the slow evening peak
before returning to normal around 6.00pm.
During the same period, trips from the Bracken Road area to the Leopardstown
Roundabout increases from about 7 minutes to approximately 20 minutes. It
should be noted that these journey times take account of the normal nightly
queuing approaching the roundabout.
While the re-balancing of priority between traffic and other road users was always
likely to affect the flow of vehicular movement through the Estate, Traffic Section
fully understands the concerns expressed about the delays within the short
evening period, which should be placed in context against the benefits generated
by the overall proposals.
Traffic Section will continue to monitor the traffic and pedestrian movements over
the next few weeks and will continue to optimise traffic flows and movements on
the more congested roadways within the Estate and make adjustments, where
possible, to cater for the delays being experienced during the evening peak'

So looks like they are admitting that traffic times are now much longer in getting out of the business pk yet we have to look at the overall context...ie its better for pedestrians and cyclists so us drivers can go stuff themselves!

Irish and Proud · 19-12-2012 7:59pm

Larbre34 wrote: »

Possible, yes, sensible, no. Elevating Luas at that location would have been prohibitively costly and intrusive.

I'm not sure people really understand that the private car is number 5 on a priority list of 5 transport modes, it is overt national policy and it will continue to be disadvantaged in order to provide even incremental improvements to rail, bus, pedestrian or cyclist.

This old and tired "People are wedded to their cars" myth was demolished as far back as 2004 when the Luas became operational. So good and so reliable (well certainly the Green Line anyway) is the service that people switched (AFAIK, 100,000 of them) - just a couple of days ago, I came off the M50 and rather than drive into Rathgar, I just parked in Dundrum and rode the Luas (much prefer that) - excellent piece of infrastructure. If the authorities were more concerned with investing in public transport (and rolling our more Luas lines etc) rather than trying to force people from their cars, we'd have a much better modal balance.

It's high time that this country was run by intelligent people rather than the gombeens we have at the helm. About cycling/pedestrian infrastructure - all I would say is tear up that silly cycle manual and just copy the cycling standards used in Holland - the standards that seem to work!

monument · 19-12-2012 9:10pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

This old and tired "People are wedded to their cars" myth ...

Dublin has around 100,000 people commuters traveling 4km and less, so, yes people are wedded to their cars.

It's clearly not a myth.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

...was demolished as far back as 2004 when the Luas became operational. So good and so reliable (well certainly the Green Line anyway) is the service that people switched (AFAIK, 100,000 of them)

Luas.ie says it had around 80,000 passangers on the network a day. That's actually 80k trips -- given most people make two trips a day, that's closer to 40k users daily.

Nowhere near all of those transferred from cars -- some were new trips and many came from buses.

The roads around the Luas are now nearly as full with cars as they ever were.

Irish and Proud wrote: »

If the authorities we more concerned with investing in public transport (and rolling our more Luas lines etc) rather than trying to force people from their cars, we'd have a much better modal balance.

When you say authorities and mean the officials -- a hell of a load of those are very much so for investing in public transport.

But when we had money most of our politicians and much of the public were a lot more fixated on road building without any balance.

A mix of things needs to be done, including investing in and giving priority to walking between public transport and work places etc. This is exactly what the project subject of this thread.

spank_inferno · 20-12-2012 1:34pm

Do people think the terrible traffic situation will eventually drive business out of the estate?

Irish and Proud · 20-12-2012 9:47pm

monument wrote: »

Dublin has around 100,000 people commuters traveling 4km and less, so, yes people are wedded to their cars.

It's clearly not a myth.

Even if it's not, people have the right to choose their mode of transport - what the authorities have got to do is make available/viable, alternative modes - not force people from their cars. If people are so wedded to their cars, just look at the car parks at train stations - my main mode into work is the train. BTW, look at the increase in the numbers cycling...

monument wrote: »

Luas.ie says it had around 80,000 passangers on the network a day. That's actually 80k trips -- given most people make two trips a day, that's closer to 40k users daily.

Nowhere near all of those transferred from cars -- some were new trips and many came from buses.

The roads around the Luas are now nearly as full with cars as they ever were.

...but at least there's now an alternative - one I'm happy to use instead of driving all the way in to Rathgar (I sometimes have to go there) - that's with a 20 minute walk each way!

monument wrote: »

When you say authorities and mean the officials -- a hell of a load of those are very much so for investing in public transport.

All talk and little action - sure there were great rail plans in the 1960's for Dublin - I think there was an inner loop (underground) planned at one stage while there was an underground route proposed from Sandymount/Lansdowne to Broadstone (and on from there as a surface route) at another.

monument wrote: »

But when we had money most of our politicians and much of the public were a lot more fixated on road building without any balance.

...and of course, you know why that was - there was plenty in it for the farmers, developers and speculators who have far too much power in this country. The amount paid for land was disgraceful - how many Luas lines could have been built with the excessive money paid out. In short, I'm starting to think that the motorways were a cover for the massive compensation scam by the above mentioned parties - remember that FF tent - I'm sure there's an FG tent somewhere nowadays.

monument wrote: »

A mix of things needs to be done, including investing in and giving priority to walking between public transport and work places etc. This is exactly what the project subject of this thread.

I was a pedestrian today - I know one thing that would be a start if you want modal rebalancing - zebra crossings on our main streets - plenty of them like in France. The carpark at Millfield Shopping Centre in Balbriggan has quite a few zebra crossings with no physical speed measures etc - it works!!! For cycling, bring in some Dutch engineers and take road design completely out of the remit of the NTA.

As a motorist today, a pedestrian was crossing at an unofficial crossing point (there's actually no official one as it happened), so I just let her cross - as my driving instructor said: "Feet on Street, let them Complete" - it's no big deal. If there was more co-operation between people in general, then things would work better.

patrickbrophy18 · 05-01-2013 7:23pm

Irish and Proud wrote: »

The short left lane! - You have the National Transport Authority (NTA) and their National Cycle Manual spec to thank for that - the NTA do not want left turn lanes any longer than 30m in Urban Areas. There's a much better way devised by the Dutch for handling motorists and cyclists at junctions - my feeling is that the NTA are just anti-car and are using cyclists as an excuse for their anti-car measures.

I couldn't have put it better myself. Improving cycling infrastructure should ideally be carried out without inconveniencing road users such as those on buses and cars. By doing so, they are creating a resentment and rivalry of sorts between motorists and cyclists. In other words, they are adding fuel to the "anti-car/anti-cyclist" fire. The work carried out has undoubtedly had a negative impact on the journey times of the 114 given that it shares the same road as other motorists such as cars and trucks.

I was on Blackthorn Road the other day off peak and noticed the tailbacks this abomination has caused as well as the pathetically small left turn lane. If this is off peak, I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for motorists going to places like Tallaght or Blanchardstown at rush hour. While the M50 has improved significantly over the years, this is being counter-acted by dis-improvement measures to roads which feed into and off it.

AltAccount · 05-01-2013 7:30pm

patrickbrophy18 wrote: »

I couldn't have put it better myself. Improving cycling infrastructure should ideally be carried out without inconveniencing road users such as those on buses and cars. By doing so, they are creating a resentment and rivalry of sorts between motorists and cyclists. In other words, they are adding fuel to the "anti-car/anti-cyclist" fire. The work carried out has undoubtedly had a negative impact on the journey times of the 114 given that it shares the same road as other motorists such as cars and trucks.

I'd think it's important to distinguish between a decision being made to deliberately inconvenience motorists in order to make cycling easier, versus an attempt to make cycling easier that's ineptly executed and has an impact that wasn't intended.

I'd like to think it's the latter, which do you think it is?

Introduction of two way system on Blackthorn Road, Sandyford Industrial Estate

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