How are the English different from us?

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

Pure negativity again rather than any attempt to contribute positively to the forum. Its very easy to complain about the nature and type of posts by others without attempting to contribute positively. Well done both. How many times did you both report posts for being off topic or not suitable on forum?
Back to the start then- So the thread OP asks an innocent question -he places it on the history & heritage forum. Why not attempt to place the answers into a suitable context relating to the forum. Instead you complain... pathetic lack of initiative.

Look at the OP again.

We are different. Try looking at how the class system took hold and control of society in England, compare this to how the same hierarchical structure dismantled in Ireland. How did this effect the general type of stereotypical view of Irish people. Take the period 1870 to 1990 for example and look at the social change in both countries. Ireland faced revolution isolation and certain levels of poverty. England faced war and the end of empire. Place answers in historical context. Relate answers to our heritage.

I do report posts, most of which are ignored although in fairness to Dubhthach I find him more responsive, fairer and less acerbic that your retorts.

That out of the way, and as you are throwing down the gauntlet, take this debate back to basics. Your comments above cover far more ground than that implied by or even can be inferred from the OP – your remarks extend to the views and perceptions of the English when it comes to class, Ireland and the Irish.

Firstly, look at the OP. It’s badly phrased, imprecise and the initial poster has - in his/her single additional post to the topic after dozens of responses – days ago essentially reiterated the opening post and added nothing else. However, s/he has had time to add the following to another thread

Jesus I hate feckin spiders. Two worst experiences...I met a rather large huntsman in the northern beaches while on acid….

And, continuing to ignore this thread, s/he went on elsewhere to post about playing with Lego. Now, does that cr@ap merit you getting worked up?

To use your own expression, place the answers question in a suitable context. So what is meant by “English”? What social class? What ethnic background? What level of education? What level of intelligence? As a student, L.Cert just over, I went to England to get a summer job, (like everyone then we pretended to be farmers’ sons, rough and hardened, in the belief that it was easier to get a job there), started working as a cleaner in a Grimsby fish factory. I fitted in, as did the couple of schoolmates with me. I liked my English colleagues, they were friendly, polite and fun. I went out with them for drinks on paynight, and even was told by a semi-literate foreman that I had a future, might even be promoted if I lost my Paddy accent. They were nice, friendly and fun, superficially, but we had nothing in common. Socially elsewhere, I got laid by several girls (not all at the same time) from Hull University at parties because I was the first Irish person they had met who is not a construction worker and had an ability to discuss existentialism, Sartre, de Beauvoir and Camus with them, topics that were very important in those days. We were no different and had a great time. How would they have treated me had I been a brickie/chippie/sparks? They would not have bothered talking to me, I would have been just another Paddy. View it in context. (Paddy, what is the difference between a joist and a girder? One wrote Ulysses, the other Faust.)

In 'business' people want to learn what others know and can impart - there is no class system and no frontier when it comes to money, debate on class/ethnicity is a BS topic for sociologists and academics. If one meets a Brit of similar education/background, there are no issues. But if you meet a Brit who is less educated than you, there will be problems. There is an arrogance in those people that is hard to stomach, and it was exemplified during the Celtic Tiger when - for example – English bankers came over here with a supercilious attitude of “We will show Paddy how to do it” and lost their collective shirts. Sadly too many Paddy bankers had inferiority complexes and followed suit.

I disagree with you on a 'dismantled' Irish class system - there always was one here and it never was dismantled – the entire coda of Brehon law was based on it, everything and everybody body had a price/value. It continued long after the Brehon Codex disappeared. After ‘Surrender & Regrant’ came along a class system prevailed among the “Irish” - Do you think the various Desmonds, Fitzgeralds, Butlers, O’Neills, O’Briens, etc. were nice & friendly to their servants and tenants? In the 1800’s, 1900’s and even today the class system prevails with town looking down on country and vice-a-versa. Similarly there was a class system in “England” (let’s go with that geographic definition) even before William the Bastard came along. And after his arrival, there was a hierarchy, serf, villain, yeoman, lord of the manor, knight of the Shire, etc. It continued when the English came to Ireland with Cromwell. Snobbery, better to be the ‘First Commoner’ of the County rather than accept a ‘new’ title. And all that prevails to this day, both in England and Ireland and is important to some people. Henry Vivien Pierpont Conyngham, Viscount whatever-he-was before he inherited and became the 8th Marquess Conyngham, was viewed as an Irishman when at school in England and as such was known as ‘Boggy’ - now does that explain it?

As for Boston / Berlin and the US legal system being closed to ours than Germany’s, I suggest that the poster who wrote that try standing up in our High Court and cite a US case law precedent and see what happens (after the laughter dissolves!). Actually Delaware is about the only State that has commonality with Irish /English law, as each State has its own ‘corpus legis’ and several e.g. Louisiana has heavy overtones of the Code Napoleon.

And to those daft Spaniards the OP was on about, he should have told them what happened to the Armada sailors when they were shipwrecked on our West Coast. Those poor eejits who came here to help the Irish were, after being cast ashore, knocked on the head, throats slit and robbed of everything, including the clothes they wore.

Sorry for the long post, as Oscar W said ‘I did not have time to write a short one’

Through inter-marriage we've managed to erase and blend most of the differences that might have existed centuries ago. Some of my English ancestors who arrived in the 17th century, stayed and intermarried, hence developed an Irish branch of the family.

A look through the various Irish phone directories, will reveal as many Anglo-Norman and English surnames, as there are traditional Irish. In the case of the Anglo-Normans, we know from history they blended in remarkably well. Who for instance nowadays, would regard surnames like Power or Fitzgerald as being anything but Irish ?

There are some subtle differences though, one being we seem to get worked up over hot religious and political topics - English people don't, or at least to the same extent. Pints, sport, good conversation, music and the craic are common to both, or at least in the circles I revolved in.

It seems inherent in the OP's question, that these 'differences' have to be 'eeked out' - due to the cultural blending, they're not readily apparent apart from accent.

They have slot machines in their pubs, very odd stuff.

Peregrinus wrote: »

Hence also a continuing difference in social attitudes to government and the exercise of government power, which persists to this day.

Do you mean Irish attitudes to exercise if government power?
What do you see as the differences?

DanielODonnell wrote: »

Well maybe on the english side but certainly not my own personal ancestry as it is mainly Gaelic with some Norse from scotland. Religion kept the english / plantation scots segregated from my catholic ancestors.

But the Scottish people stoll came from the same background (although with some Norse and Angle input in certain areas).

Fratton Fred wrote: »

All the people on these islands come from the same background, do you think the early inhabitants of Ireland and Scotland just appeared out of nowhere, or flew in over England?

The main difference is that a lot of England had European influence far more recently thanks to the Angles, Saxons and Normans.

As for Scotland, are you referring to the Gaelic ones, the Pictish ones or the Caledonii?

All of them I suppose. Picts was just a name for the people in the part of Britain the Romans didn't conquer (north of the wall) the Caledonni was a group that fell under this banner.
The Gaels obviously were the Irish who the Romans originally called Scotti (and Gael being a term given to Irish raiders by the Welsh).

Lord Riverside wrote: »

In my experience, the English are generally much better at panning, preparation, organisation and being systematic and thorough than the Irish are. I don't know if this is cultural or genetic.

I'm not so sure ... I've lived there and they're quite capable of making unbelievable messes too!

Our planning issues came down to local authority corruption due to structural inadequacy. It has very little to do with culture and more to do with an era of rotten politics.

Ireland also comes from decades of failure to spend money on infrastructure which meant we'd rather messy roads etc etc until recently. All the planning in the world won't make up for not having the cash to build usable roads!

I didn't find all that much cultural difference between Ireland and non-London parts of England. I feel very at home in more rural parts of SW England more so than anywhere else. It's extremely similar to Cork & Southwesten Ireland. Same maritime vibe, similar village costal architecture etc etc

Main difference is we don't have ownership of a big old imperial heritage which always gives old imperial countries an air of arrogance smaller ones don't have. England is actually probably the only non-reconstructed empire too. France, Spain, Belgium, the Netherlands, Austria etc were all knocked down several pegs by WWI, WWII erc

England pretty much wound down the empire somewhat less dramatically without ever having to face defeat or occupation of its own country.

I think it's that relative success (mostly because they were an island and easily defensible against the Germans) that has given them a bit of a misplaced sense of superiority that goes down very badly internationally.

Also, they've had wars with or attempted to invade almost everyone on the planet which tends to have left centuries of bad feelings.

I'm not blaming the modern generations in Britain for any of this. I actually think modern day Britain is a very decent place full of mostly very warm, open minded friendly people but, they've a not altogether pleasant legacy to integrate into their indentity that Ireland doesn't have. That includes empire, wars, the class system etc etc

That's largely what makes us different. Other than that we're culturally about as similar as two places could be!