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Vote of no confidence.

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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Yeah fair enough, there's no room for name calling of our glorious leader...I mean there was a time I'd be taken out and hung for it, not just get it deleted. I miss those days...
    The man really ires me though, to the point where I just can't help myself but stoop to that level...only certain radio DJs annoy me more. Wouldn't want boards to end up in court over it so I'll cease and desist.
    As for backing up claims:
    CJ Haughey wrote:
    "He's the most clever, the most cunning, the most devious of them all".
    http://www.anirishlife.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=111&Itemid=31
    http://www.politics.ie/wiki/index.php?title=Charles_J._Haughey

    Like I said, knowing what we know of Charlie now, that's some character reference...


    [edit] BTW whatever happened to the "OMG no political threads on teh afterhours" rule?


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Wertz wrote:
    [edit] BTW whatever happened to the "OMG no political threads on teh afterhours" rule?
    No idea, but the "Don't argue with a moderator" rule is still in place.
    Just so you know.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 11,909 ✭✭✭✭Wertz


    Hey, who's arguing? I know better than that. I was complying with any moderator's requests (as usual) and adding to the thread...


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭ghostdancer


    nah, i'm grand with him staying as he is.

    when there's actually any vague proof of him doing anything illegal or wrong, instead of just some inconsistencies between his bank account records, and what he can remember, as well as claims of wrongdoing from a proven liar like Tom Gilmartin, who has immunity from the tribunal, despite there being absolutely no evidence to back up those claims, that's when i'll want him to go.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,336 ✭✭✭Mr.Micro


    Bertie appears incapable of telling the truth .Why should he be good enough to lead Ireland in 2007 and on. How could one believe him about anything has said or says in the future in his political office ? I feel he is not acceptable now and an insult to all those who struggled for the liberation of this country.Haughey was his trainer enough said . He should go now .Whats so great about his leadership ?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 2,367 ✭✭✭Agamemnon


    It's no surprise Bertie was re-elected when you look at the alternative: the laughable Enda Kenny, FFS. Kenny is the William Hague of Irish politics and people didn't want to live with the embarrassment of having a plank of wood like that as Taoiseach. You'd find more charisma and leadership in a cardboard box with a smiley face drawn on it.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,176 ✭✭✭nyarlothothep


    Id warrant that people dont want to upset the applecart when the economy is good, and that they may associate the state of the economy with the governments tenure in office. And that the alternatives are equally as bad, better the devil you know yadda yadda...

    Things might improve if there was a general political mobilization of the people.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm not so confident in the opposition either, but at the very least Brian Cowen should take over as Taoiseach for the sake of Irish politics. People are cynical enough about politics! At least if we get rid of Bertie we can have a few years without corruption hanging over the government. Until Cowen has to appear before a tribunal that is, as is the Fianna Fail way........


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Karoma wrote:
    Far from it, but I'm keeping out of this to be objective.
    I removed anything that may be defamatory (Stating as fact ...the name-calling...)
    Please, people, back up your claims or (One way or another) it'll be one of the last things you post.


    An accessible guide to defamation / libel laws in Ireland:
    http://www.digitalrights.ie/2006/01/06/libel-laws-in-ireland/

    (We're not going to get into a legal discussion here- there are appropriate fora for that.)

    Please, as you were...
    .


  • Registered Users Posts: 19,396 ✭✭✭✭Karoma


    Folks, we're giving you a chance to discuss something more than the weather or "Wudja do 'er?!". Boards LTD is legally responsible for the information posted here. We will remove any content posted that puts Boards at risk. We will, as ever, ban the particularly stupid. We will also prevent such discussion in future.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    Karoma wrote:
    Folks, we're giving you a chance to discuss something more than the weather or "Wudja do 'er?!". Boards LTD is legally responsible for the information posted here. We will remove any content posted that puts Boards at risk. We will, as ever, ban the particularly stupid. We will also prevent such discussion in future.
    Cheers, buddy.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Things might improve if there was a general political mobilization of the people.
    How would you go about doing that though? You'd first need a wide range of policies which would appeal to your target population, with enough appeal that it won't piss off business interests and those with a lot to lose from radical reforms.

    Next you'd need to get your faces into the media, which is an expensive process. You'd either need independent financing or some sponsors with deep pockets, which again goes back to policies. And again, you need to have a support base before doing that, which is hard to get without media coverage, in a catch-22 situation.

    Once you have policies, a party structure, a support base, and regular media coverage, you need to actually get into power. Actually on the whole, its not too hard a process. Find a sponsor or two, political and legal experts, a marketing team, and away you go. If it was up to me, I'd enact the following reforms:
    • More stringent controls on the banking and financial sector to prevent them throwing money at people who really can't afford to pay it back.
    • Anti property investment legislation, as was recommended in the Bacon report (actually implemented but cancelled due to a shortage of housing stock at the time).
    • Much tighter control of the civil service, in particular the health service, with wide layoffs and pay freezes until they are on a par with the private sector, pension reform also.
    • Sweeping reforms of the outdated armed forces in Ireland, with a focus on smaller, better trained and equipped groups, and a considerably enhanced naval and air profile. The days of the mass army are long gone, and if its not effective, remove it. Yes I know Aegis cruisers cost a fortune, but you only need to buy them once every 50 years.
    • Enhanced support for entrepreneurs and small business people, with low interest loans and favourable grants for that purpose. And a branch of the government whose sole purpose it is to help them market and sell their product internationally and nationally.
    • Much higher government investment in local industry and technology - open an Irish built car manufacturing plant for example, or make boats our speciality, this is an island after all. There are also exciting things being done in the field of renewable resources and biotech, automation, the list is endless. This is also where you can put your recently fired/retired civil servants.
    • Reforms of the police and prison systems, making them better equipped but fewer in numbers, and a real alternative to the failed prison system we have currently in place, focused on proper rehabilitation.
    • A review and reform of border controls and immigration.
    • A foreign policy focused on trade and the exchange of raw materials and ideas with other nations, in particular poorer countries (a la what China is doing right now), leveraging our favourable position within the EU, which offers free access to a market of a half a billion people. As it is most of our foreign policy is flogging faith-n-begorrah.
    • A minimal taxation policy.
    • Loosened local intellectual property laws, which have historically lead to massive advancements in technology whenever it occurred (see again China and in fact the US around the turn of the last century).
    • Reforms of the agricultural sector, focusing on better returns for the effort put in, and specialised food crops.
    • Complete educational reforms, and a much larger investment into the educational system. I don't mean by this more pay for teachers, I mean more teachers, more schools, and the latest cutting edge equipment in schools and universities.
    • Strong anti corruption legislation, mandatory end to end financial transparency for all public servants above a certain level, and using the new ubiquity of the internet to allow the general population to have more of a say in local government.
    • Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure.
    • Much development on the process of teaching the Irish language, and the focus on Irish culture in general. Particular emphasis would be placed on the works of people like Jim Fitzpatrick.
    • Support for the concept of a united Ireland, but passive support only. If the people of the north vote to rejoin the south, they are more than welcome.

    Now thats an Ireland I'd like to live in.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    I know people are all upset that the tribunals are making him look bad but to be quite blunt they'd already made his character quite questionable, to me at least, long before the elections. Do you people really believe that were there another election next year and he were to run again that he would not be voted in again??? Most of his constituents probably couldn't tell you much about his decisions in goverment, what they could tell you about is his aid to the local community. So in short people get upset because it appears that according to the tribunal and evidence in it he may have been (trying to be as careful to avoid defamation/accusation as possible here) getting payments he should not have been accepting, when lets face it, he effectively pays the public to vote for him, they just fail to realise it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 668 ✭✭✭mise_me_fein


    Don't think the average man really cares too much about all the goings on in the past weeks as long as the country's going well. Bertie is a very likable leader. A big sports fan. I can relate to him a lot more than most of the politicians.

    I think most people would be thinking(most ordinary people, not the yuppie's) ok he did wrong, country's going well, as long as he doesn't do it again fair enough.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,766 ✭✭✭Reku


    as long as he doesn't do it again.
    *snigger*
    *cough*
    Bwaahaaahaaa!:D

    Sorry:o


  • Registered Users Posts: 37,295 ✭✭✭✭the_syco


    agamemnon wrote:
    It's no surprise Bertie was re-elected when you look at the alternative: the laughable Enda Kenny, FFS. Kenny is the William Hague of Irish politics and people didn't want to live with the embarrassment of having a plank of wood like that as Taoiseach. You'd find more charisma and leadership in a cardboard box with a smiley face drawn on it.
    I've reported your post for your defamatory remarks regarding carboard boxes. I'd like to remind you that not only are carboard boxes provide many homeless people with a home...
    Much tighter control of the civil service, in particular the health service, with wide layoffs and pay freezes until they are on a par with the private sector, pension reform also.
    Enhanced support for entrepreneurs and small business people, with low interest loans and favourable grants for that purpose. And a branch of the government whose sole purpose it is to help them market and sell their product internationally and nationally.
    Pretty sure that state back companies getting free advertisement is against anti-sompetion laws.
    Reforms of the police and prison systems, making them better equipped but fewer in numbers, and a real alternative to the failed prison system we have currently in place, focused on proper rehabilitation.
    I always giggle when I read this.
    A foreign policy focused on trade and the exchange of raw materials and ideas with other nations, in particular poorer countries
    Wouldn't that f**k over our farmers?
    A minimal taxation policy.
    This is taking the piss, now. Lots of reforms, with less money to do them with.
    Loosened local intellectual property laws, which have historically lead to massive advancements in technology whenever it occurred (see again China and in fact the US around the turn of the last century).
    You mean encourage state-sponsored piracy?
    Reforms of the agricultural sector, focusing on better returns for the effort put in, and specialised food crops.
    This is simple. Increase the mimimum percentage that farmers get from their produce. Anti-competitve, though.
    Complete educational reforms, and a much larger investment into the educational system. I don't mean by this more pay for teachers, I mean more teachers, more schools, and the latest cutting edge equipment in schools and universities.
    There are less teachers, as it's not a job people aim for anymore. You want more people, you have to offer an incentive. Also, teachers face a lot more bad behaviour these days, with no ability to combat it.
    Strong anti corruption legislation, mandatory end to end financial transparency for all public servants above a certain level, and using the new ubiquity of the internet to allow the general population to have more of a say in local government.
    Always thought that that was a god thing...
    Infrastructure, infrastructure, infrastructure.
    Just with less tax, yes?
    Much development on the process of teaching the Irish language, and the focus on Irish culture in general. Particular emphasis would be placed on the works of people like Jim Fitzpatrick.
    Agreed, but to teach the language (as you'd learn French), and not learn how to repeat poems.


  • Registered Users Posts: 21,611 ✭✭✭✭Sam Vimes


    humanji wrote:
    If the majority are idiots, then what stopped the opposition from conning them into voting for their side?
    fear of the unknown. Something which is a defining characteristic of idiots
    DesF wrote:
    It's called democracy.

    It means people have a choice, every five years ao, to decide who governs them.

    You don't like the choice made, it doesn't make the people who made the choice idiots however.
    making a different choice to me does not necessarily make someone an idiot. But choosing a leader who is widely known to be corrupt does make someone an idiot

    Kaiser2000 wrote:
    Why aren't people out protesting about the farce that is this latest Tribunal? Or the shambles that is the M50 in the morning?
    they are. Every morning thousands of people gather on the m50 for a go-slow protest. :)


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    the_syco wrote:
    Pretty sure that state back companies getting free advertisement is against anti-sompetion laws.
    Anti competition laws don't prevent any amount of free advice though. Are grants anti competition as well? How about low corporate tax rates? Should we close down Enterprise Ireland?
    the_syco wrote:
    I always giggle when I read this.
    Well, I didn't neccessarily mean a health farm now, did I?
    the_syco wrote:
    Wouldn't that f**k over our farmers?
    Farming in this country is a complete write off as it, for the most part. Its only kept as war proofing, and farmers earn their money from subsidies, not profits. Same with a lot of first world countries really. I was referring to raw materials such as ore and stuff you can't get locally, however.
    the_syco wrote:
    This is taking the piss, now. Lots of reforms, with less money to do them with.
    With 20% of the population employed in the civil service, you'd save most of your tax bill with the other reforms I mentioned. We can start with €200,000 a year consultants and work our way down.
    the_syco wrote:
    You mean encourage state-sponsored piracy?
    In the sense of swashbuckling bandits, no. In the sense of an environment where the free exchange of ideas and inspiration is in place, yes. The term piracy has been bandied about heavily by certain vested interests of late as well. All I can say is, that is how the US, Japan, and now China got their industries off the ground.
    the_syco wrote:
    This is simple. Increase the mimimum percentage that farmers get from their produce. Anti-competitve, though.
    I'm not sure what you mean by this.
    the_syco wrote:
    There are less teachers, as it's not a job people aim for anymore. You want more people, you have to offer an incentive. Also, teachers face a lot more bad behaviour these days, with no ability to combat it.
    Well, lets include those issues in the reform package! Also, last time I checked, teachers had a pretty good deal: good pay, long holidays, gold plated pension, and they can still receive their pay and have their jobs held for them if they run for political office.
    the_syco wrote:
    Just with less tax, yes?
    Strip down the civil service and armed forces, put them into profitable businesses, and you'll have all the money you need.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 668 ✭✭✭mise_me_fein


    farohar wrote:
    *snigger*
    *cough*
    Bwaahaaahaaa!:D

    Sorry:o


    It's just the way it is. People will be a lot more forgiving when they actually like someone and a lot of people like Bertie, hence calling him Bertie and not Ahern.


  • Registered Users Posts: 26,061 ✭✭✭✭Terry


    fear of the unknown. Something which is a defining characteristic of idiots
    Really?
    I'd like to hear more of this definition of yours.

    Now as I understand it, people vote for their local representatives.
    I didn't vote FF, but I didn't vote for the leader of the party of my local representative either. That was left to the people in his constituency.

    However, his leadership status was voted for by members of his party.

    If the local FF representative in my constituency was a better politician than the one I voted for, then s/he would have been given my vote.
    I like to vote for the person doing the most for their constituents and not on party preference.
    I believe the term used is "floating voter".
    I'm certainly not going to vote for someone just because my mothers mothers mother voted for their party.

    My local representative was re-elected, because he is continuously doing the job he is paid to do.
    making a different choice to me does not necessarily make someone an idiot. But choosing a leader who is widely known to be corrupt does make someone an idiot
    Again, party members and the people in that corrupt leaders (whoever s/he is) constituency are the ones who voted for that person.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Don't be silly, voting for someone in FF in the last election was a vote for Bertie to be Taoiseach.


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