domestic rider banned for steroid abuse

Daroxtar · 28-07-2015 9:51am

I'll say one thing, I'm going to be going up one place on a few strava segments.

cython · 28-07-2015 9:55am

average_runner wrote: »

Ok, so now you want to bring testing in for minor, u-21, junior, intermediate a and b, senior for club and county level, that would require alot of testers I tell ya.

Remember GAA has a massive membership compare to cycling.

If Irish Athletics was to test every member it be bankrupt

I do think senior county teams should be tested but not at work. There is no opportunity for these guys to go professional, in cycling there is an opportunity.

So no GAA player has ever gone to Australia and gotten paid to play??? Of course they have! Admittedly it is a different code they are paid for, but the opportunity arose through GAA, and almost certainly would not have come about through cycling, football, or most other sports played here.

I think you are missing the point here that just because an athlete may be tested at work, or more tiers become eligible, etc. it does not mean that there will be a huge upsurge in the amount of resources that might be required. In reality, of the club-level cyclists, or whatever other athletes you may care to name, how many of them are actually tested under these circumstances? I strongly doubt it's anywhere near all of them, and likely not all that frequently, especially based off the feedback RE testing earlier in the thread. The same happens in other sports here, so no reason that widening the net for testing in GAA is automatically going to see a huge jump in resources required.

The GAA also has massively deep pockets compared to amateur-level cycling in Ireland, so remember that too! If they want to continue to take in the money that they do, I would argue they have an obligation to spend on keeping the game clean.

lennymc · 28-07-2015 9:55am

Daroxtar wrote: »

I'll say one thing, I'm going to be going up one place on a few strava segments.

I'm going to be going up one place in last years gorey. Is last still last?

Daroxtar · 28-07-2015 10:06am

lennymc wrote: »

I'm going to be going up one place in last years gorey. Is last still last?

Yes but your Veloviewer score for the segment will increase

Brian? · 28-07-2015 10:08am

Junior wrote: »

To be fair even a 20Kg weight loss is very possible with diet and training. Cos it's what I did last year, I was up around 90kg mark and dropped to 71kg. Got myself a coach for 10 months, got a structured program, got a food plan and pushed myself. I hope to try do it all again this winter - I've had a year off the bike with the arrival of kids so dropping a large amount of weight doesn't make you a doper.

20kg over 10 months is healthy enough. Fair play. I've seen the reccommend action of keeping weight loss to 1kg a week plenty of times, so your 20kg is even slow progress by that standard. I think the more overweight your are the easier it is to lose weight.

10kg in a month is not healthy, you'll drop a fair amount of muscle while dropping weight that quickly. Dropping 10kg in a month and keeping power and muscle mass, that's suspicious as it's highly improbable to do without something like Cleanbuterol.

sconhome · 28-07-2015 10:09am

Zipp101 wrote: »

The Irish Times now running with the story with a photo of himself pictured with Sean Kelly with "Kelly hit with four year drug ban" in the title. :rolleyes:

Fairly reaching having to use a 10 year old photo just to bait with the 'Kelly' connection in the headline. :rolleyes:

Junior · 28-07-2015 10:24am

Brian? wrote: »

20kg over 10 months is healthy enough. Fair play. I've seen the reccommend action of keeping weight loss to 1kg a week plenty of times, so your 20kg is even slow progress by that standard. I think the more overweight your are the easier it is to lose weight.

10kg in a month is not healthy, you'll drop a fair amount of muscle while dropping weight that quickly. Dropping 10kg in a month and keeping power and muscle mass, that's suspicious as it's highly improbable to do without something like Cleanbuterol.

I dropped 10-12 Kg relatively quickly and I had most of of the rest of it gone before race season got too heavy.. anyways that's neither here nor there ..

Boo Dopers ! Yaaaaaah Victory for Anti Doping officials !

dragratchet · 28-07-2015 10:29am

the sad thing about stories like these is that they have two effects. 1) warns off others from trying the same thing but 2) introduces people to the idea that these drugs are cheap, obtainable and effective. the more stories you hear the more normalized it becomes for some

manwithaplan · 28-07-2015 10:37am

Quigs Snr wrote: »

Having had this guy pull the legs off me up in Clonard around the time of this, I feel a little better !

That makes you second on the podium so. We should form a support group.

zurbfoundation · 28-07-2015 10:42am

Junior wrote: »

I dropped 10-12 Kg relatively quickly

it depends on the starting point, with out knowing your physiology, 90kg is high - so you can make quick gains (or losses) at the beginning - the curve flattens out as you approach a more realistic weight.

<SNIP>

Jimoslimos · 28-07-2015 10:51am

cython wrote: »

The GAA also has massively deep pockets compared to amateur-level cycling in Ireland, so remember that too! If they want to continue to take in the money that they do, I would argue they have an obligation to spend on keeping the game clean.

I'd argue because the GAA places such an emphasis on its amateur ethos it has even more of a responsibility to ensure that doping stays out of its games.

The guys playing club football/hurling and kids at underage don't have access to the same level of medical support that professional athletes (or even top intercounty players). Doping carries a much greater level of risk (health not career) to these players.

ford2600 · 28-07-2015 11:20am

Dominic Munnelly, who post on fitness forum here, recently did a few radio interviews on prevalence of steroid use in Ireland.

I remember at time looking up how to take them safely and what most guys were doing.

My take home was you need a lot of expertise(even then you are accepting certain risks) but most lads do about as much research as they might do to calculate their protein intake.

Why would you? In the cold light of day it's utter stupidity and recklessness with your health, but in a competitive environment(whether to make an inter county panel, make the Munster development squad etc) some young men will always do stupid sh1t, cheat and take a chance. In my experience with playing, it's not really about the rules, but what the referee will let go defines GAA/rugby/soccer approach to a game; the more competitive the more acute that is.

Given what an amateur athlete gives up in terms of time/effort other hobbies that have to go doping is never as simple as an amateur.professional divide.

The GAA, rugby in particular need to be as proactive as possible to protect the health of their athletes and the spirit of their sport. Cycling has had enough deaths and clean athletes with broken spirits to do all sports without complacency ruining other sports.

As a GAA person and a sports van in general, I always feel people keep cycling as the lighting rod for all doping discussion so they don't need to look at their own sports. In mainstream media cycling only ever gets mentioned for most part in the context of doping.

bogmanfan · 28-07-2015 11:24am

If the authorities really think there's an issue with doping, would they be able to spot test the entire top 20 finishers from a random race some weekend? That would certainly put the wind up anybody who was contemplating going down that road. People will only dope if they think they can get away with it.

Koobcam · 28-07-2015 11:50am

dragratchet wrote: »

these drugs are cheap, obtainable and effective

All true.

JK.BMC · 28-07-2015 11:52am

lennymc wrote: »

I'm going to be going up one place in last years gorey. Is last still last?

I'm still gonna be just ahead of ya!
ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚ðŸ˜‚

LeoD · 28-07-2015 11:57am

TBH, this whole debacle should hardly come as a surprise to anyone. Sport at all levels has slowly been going down the tubes for years with the growing acceptance of the 'do whatever is necessary to win' attitude. Just look at field sports like soccer/rugby/football/etc - the constant deliberate cheating that takes place every minute is brushed off as 'part of the game' - deliberate obstruction, jersey pulling, tripping, etc. "Ah he's a crafty/wiley ol' player that fella". No, he's a cheat. I read an article in the golf section a while back in the Limerick Leader where the author took issue with the eulogy at some old man's funeral. The story was told how the deceased was a great man for shaving shots of his handicap to which everyone in the church laughed at. The author of the article was less impressed with the fact that this was serial cheating and was ruining amateur golf. Now that sports nutrition supplements seem to be the norm (another scam btw), are we surprised someone looks for something a bit stronger? Cycling seems to have morphed into some sort of arms race in an effort to get ahead - is a 5k TT bike really necessary for a 6km TT at Gorey/Charleville/etc? A few years ago at our club league I remember one of the lads saying that for sure there was doping in Irish amateur cycling - I thought yer man was a clown for suggesting it and was watching too much telly. Ah well...

Leroy42 · 28-07-2015 11:57am

Will be interesting to see how the cycling community reacts to this.

Has was mentioned, this guy has his own business. (cycle shop as I understand)

Will people on here avoid his shop in the future? I ask as there is much vitriol doled out in terms of drug taking in the pro ranks and now that this has hit home here does it change our mindset?

I wouldn't be in the catchment area of the shop anyway, so no effect on me, but will others avoid his shop in the future?

LeoD · 28-07-2015 12:00pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

I wouldn't be in the catchment area of the shop anyway, so no effect on me, but will others avoid his shop in the future?

Should have a few good second hand bargains available this week I'd say so probably worth a visit.

Brian? · 28-07-2015 12:11pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how the cycling community reacts to this.

Has was mentioned, this guy has his own business. (cycle shop as I understand)

Will people on here avoid his shop in the future? I ask as there is much vitriol doled out in terms of drug taking in the pro ranks and now that this has hit home here does it change our mindset?

I wouldn't be in the catchment area of the shop anyway, so no effect on me, but will others avoid his shop in the future?

I don't think he owns the shop. It's my local bike shop, I'll still use it as long as try keep up their level of service. Great bunch of lads to deal with.

Leroy42 · 28-07-2015 12:45pm

According to this article on Stickybottle it is his shop

http://www.stickybottle.com/latest-news/former-sean-kelly-team-rider-ciaran-kelly-to-race-again-for-new-bikeworx-squad/

cython · 28-07-2015 12:48pm

Brian? wrote: »

I don't think he owns the shop. It's my local bike shop, I'll still use it as long as try keep up their level of service. Great bunch of lads to deal with.

He is a director of CK Bikeworx as a company, so it's probably safe to say he at least has a stake in the shop/business. I wouldn't be surprised if CK in that stood for Ciaran Kelly, in fact, but pretty sure ownership is at the most split between himself and his father, but might even be just his.

ItsAnEasyGame · 28-07-2015 1:01pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

Will be interesting to see how the cycling community reacts to this.

Has was mentioned, this guy has his own business. (cycle shop as I understand)

Will people on here avoid his shop in the future? I ask as there is much vitriol doled out in terms of drug taking in the pro ranks and now that this has hit home here does it change our mindset?

I wouldn't be in the catchment area of the shop anyway, so no effect on me, but will others avoid his shop in the future?

I just cycle as a hobby. This wont phase me using the shop. The lads are all a pleasure to deal with including himself.

check_six · 28-07-2015 1:02pm

LeoD wrote: »

Just look at field sports like soccer/rugby/football/etc - the constant deliberate cheating that takes place every minute is brushed off as 'part of the game' - deliberate obstruction, jersey pulling, tripping, etc. "Ah he's a crafty/wiley ol' player that fella". No, he's a cheat.

They had a discussion on the Second Captains show with Richie Sadlier and he made some salient points. The main thrust was that why when you see all the cheating hijinks on the pitch in front of your eyes would you assume they have much higher moral standards off it? He also said that in his own career he had spent one season getting injections every week of an unknown substance and played better than ever. He didn't question the club's system while he was in it then, but he looks at it very differently now.

In the big sports there is a financial aspect to the cheating, but at any level there is ego involved. "I won and that's all that matters" is prevalent everywhere people compete against each other. I can't understand it myself, but you will have all played some game, at any level, even a five-a-side with jumpers for goalposts, where an opponent cheats furiously and is delighted with themselves because they "won" in the end. There are loads of people like that and competitive sports attracts them.

manwithaplan · 28-07-2015 1:05pm

Having now read the full report, hats off to all involved with pursuing the case to its conclusion. The amount of work involved must have been very significant and, although the rider's defence was patently ridiculous, no short cuts were taken in systematically dismantling it through evidence and testimony.

A job well done - fair play to yiz.

Brian? · 28-07-2015 1:11pm

cython wrote: »

He is a director of CK Bikeworx as a company, so it's probably safe to say he at least has a stake in the shop/business. I wouldn't be surprised if CK in that stood for Ciaran Kelly, in fact, but pretty sure ownership is at the most split between himself and his father, but might even be just his.

Fair enough. His Da is sound and the other lads who work in the shop are sound as well. I don't see why they should suffer for his mistakes.

manwithaplan · 28-07-2015 1:17pm

Brian? wrote: »

Fair enough. His Da is sound and the other lads who work in the shop are sound as well. I don't see why they should suffer for his mistakes.

I'd agree with this - shop there if you like the products and service.

laraghrider · 28-07-2015 1:18pm

Is this a valid point and apologies if this sounds plainly ridiculous but I genuinely know nothing at all about doping investigations and what it takes to prove innocents or guilt. From my reading of the story this guy, Ciaran Kelly, took PED's and tried in vain to go all Alberto Contodor on it even going to the length of producing meat from his "source" in a bid to prove himself innocent. What followed was an investigation involving 3 staff for 5 months. Now assuming they should have been assigned to other work and this would have had a knock affect for whatever else they were doing he has caused a financial issue for the FSA. Is it unreasonable to give him the bill given he knew he was guilty and was essentially stringing them along with his "i got it from this butcher, who gets it from argentina". Say 3 staff at (figure out of the air) €3k a month = €45k. Should he not be given that bill now given it was he who caused it?

lennymc · 28-07-2015 1:30pm

one thing struck me from the report - the fsai "took two poultry samples which originated in China as they thought it would be a useful sample to take for testing for Clenbuterol"

How likely is it that Chinese chicken available in Ireland contains Clenbuterol (The report also mentioned Mexican meat), and how likely is it that it is possible to ingest chicken and return a positive test for Clenbuterol? This really does highlight the importance of knowing where your food comes from!

Russman · 28-07-2015 1:37pm

laraghrider wrote: »

Is this a valid point and apologies if this sounds plainly ridiculous but I genuinely know nothing at all about doping investigations and what it takes to prove innocents or guilt. From my reading of the story this guy, Ciaran Kelly, took PED's and tried in vain to go all Alberto Contodor on it even going to the length of producing meat from his "source" in a bid to prove himself innocent. What followed was an investigation involving 3 staff for 5 months. Now assuming they should have been assigned to other work and this would have had a knock affect for whatever else they were doing he has caused a financial issue for the FSA. Is it unreasonable to give him the bill given he knew he was guilty and was essentially stringing them along with his "i got it from this butcher, who gets it from argentina". Say 3 staff at (figure out of the air) €3k a month = €45k. Should he not be given that bill now given it was he who caused it?

I can see that argument, but I don't think I agree fully with it. Say some fella was genuinely innocent of something, and it might take a lot of legwork to prove, he might decide not to because of a potential future bill that he can't afford.

Political Wall Map · 28-07-2015 1:39pm

laraghrider wrote: »

Is this a valid point and apologies if this sounds plainly ridiculous but I genuinely know nothing at all about doping investigations and what it takes to prove innocents or guilt. From my reading of the story this guy, Ciaran Kelly, took PED's and tried in vain to go all Alberto Contodor on it even going to the length of producing meat from his "source" in a bid to prove himself innocent. What followed was an investigation involving 3 staff for 5 months. Now assuming they should have been assigned to other work and this would have had a knock affect for whatever else they were doing he has caused a financial issue for the FSA. Is it unreasonable to give him the bill given he knew he was guilty and was essentially stringing them along with his "i got it from this butcher, who gets it from argentina". Say 3 staff at (figure out of the air) €3k a month = €45k. Should he not be given that bill now given it was he who caused it?

Give the lad some credit then.... He created more jobs than any of my local tds.... I know there were only short term jobs.... But he boosted the local economy by €45k if that's the case.....

gordongekko · 28-07-2015 1:45pm

http://www.the42.ie/fred-brazil-doping-test-2239754-Jul2015/

Lumen · 28-07-2015 1:48pm

gordongekko wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/fred-brazil-doping-test-2239754-Jul2015/

I'm sure they have more than just one!

cunavalos · 28-07-2015 1:55pm

The report is interesting reading and i know there was involvement of at least one forum contributor in the case (So this is not a personal attack) but i am a little concerned about the involvement of the independent testing of the meat in the Dublin lab.

I come from a scientific background and i can't see what was ever going to be achieved by it, even if the testing had been carried out to Industry Best Practices it would never have been admissible.

All it has done is complicate the case and IMHO damage the reputation of the Analyst and indirectly the Company. There really was no reason for the analyst to get involved other than as a favour to an acquaintance and a common link between his hobby and profession and as far as i can see this was facilitated by Cycling Ireland.

Glass Prison 1214 · 28-07-2015 1:58pm

gordongekko wrote: »

http://www.the42.ie/fred-brazil-doping-test-2239754-Jul2015/

Only Freds take drugs

Beasty · 28-07-2015 2:11pm

Glass Prison 1214 wrote: »

Only Freds take drugs

Just to make it absolutely clear - not all Freds take banned substances....

TonyStark · 28-07-2015 2:16pm

Brian? wrote: »

I don't think he owns the shop. It's my local bike shop, I'll still use it as long as try keep up their level of service. Great bunch of lads to deal with.

Seconded.

I feel a little let down at what's happened but there are far worse crimes out there in the world. I don't see any boycotts of the department stores that run child labour camps.

Always a sound bunch when it comes to buying bits and pieces. Ever spin out with that group @Brian? They have regular enough spins.

death1234567 · 28-07-2015 2:16pm

check_six wrote: »

In the big sports there is a financial aspect to the cheating, but at any level there is ego involved. "I won and that's all that matters" is prevalent everywhere people compete against each other. I can't understand it myself, but you will have all played some game, at any level, even a five-a-side with jumpers for goalposts, where an opponent cheats furiously and is delighted with themselves because they "won" in the end. There are loads of people like that and competitive sports attracts them.

Cheating has been going on in amateur golf for years but through handicap manipulation rather than drugs. I suspect the level of cheating and the type of people who cheat is the same in amateur/junior sports like cycling, triathlon, rugby, GAA and it's much, much more prevalent than people think.

Brian? · 28-07-2015 2:19pm

TonyStark wrote: »

Seconded.

I feel a little let down at what's happened but there are far worse crimes out there in the world. I don't see any boycotts of the department stores that run child labour camps.

Always a sound bunch when it comes to buying bits and pieces. Ever spin out with that group @Brian? They have regular enough spins.

Never. My cycling is all on week days, I work shifts. Weekend groups are no good to me. You?

TonyStark · 28-07-2015 2:23pm

Brian? wrote: »

Never. My cycling is all on week days, I work shifts. Weekend groups are no good to me. You?

They mentioned that they had two groups but never ventured over. There are good options now in Maynooth with the Shop and the Chain Gang on a Sunday so never went over.

funnyclub · 28-07-2015 2:40pm

Its a family run business with a few none family working there, I've been in there a few times to purchase stuff and I will use them again if needed they are all a sound bunch of lads and very helpful. I don't see why this should affect their lively hoods. I'm not condoning what happened but he will serve his ban other people's lively hood's should not be affected.

diomed · 28-07-2015 2:43pm

death1234567 wrote: »

Cheating has been going on in amateur golf for years but through handicap manipulation rather than drugs.

In a pitch & putt competition my partner used the leather wedge to get out of trouble (leather wedge=kick the ball into play with your shoe).
I made sure we lost. :P

RobFowl · 28-07-2015 2:49pm

He's been through the process found guilty and banned so is serving his time now.
Just remember its a real person at a vulnerable time we're talking about here.
Before writing anything just think how it would be if it was your mate or a family member.

lennymc · 28-07-2015 2:50pm

Is there any support for people in his situation? I'm sure it would be hard (regardless of how he came to be in that situation) to actually be in that situation.

edit - by support, I mean counseling or rehabilitation or any of that stuff

Russman · 28-07-2015 3:11pm

RobFowl wrote: »

He's been through the process found guilty and banned so is serving his time now.
Just remember its a real person at a vulnerable time we're talking about here.
Before writing anything just think how it would be if it was your mate or a family member.

Agreed. He made a mistake, its not like he sold nuclear launch codes to anyone. Let him do the time and return if he wants to.

Remember, every time a soccer player dives its the same thing, cheating is cheating (well, apart from the whole health risk thing).

Undercover Elephant · 28-07-2015 3:26pm

I find that one's view of cheating tends to vary according to who you're cheering for. It shouldn't but it does.

godtabh · 28-07-2015 4:20pm

Russman wrote: »

Agreed. He made a mistake, its not like he sold nuclear launch codes to anyone. Let him do the time and return if he wants to.

I cant believe I am going to write this but the Lance Armstrong supporters take this approach. People probably could forgive the doping but its the cover up (in both cases) that makes this worse.

BikeRacer · 28-07-2015 4:35pm

Russman wrote: »

Agreed. He made a mistake, its not like he sold nuclear launch codes to anyone. Let him do the time and return if he wants to.

Remember, every time a soccer player dives its the same thing, cheating is cheating (well, apart from the whole health risk thing).

I thought that too until I read the report, the way he he went out of his way to try and throw the local Butcher under the bus without any thought to his business/livelihood changed my mind though. I have zero sympathy for him now.

Doc07 · 28-07-2015 5:19pm

Does the cyclist's agent/representative get a free pass in all this? Just curious as to other opinions, especially those with a lot more experience of Irish cycling than me. It reads like he was complicit in the 'butcher meat' story. This is not speculation, I am merely taking this information from a published document. This same agent accused Greg LeMond of doping without any evidence and then quickly removed the allegations online. Again this is not speculation, this has been reported in UK media and archived.

If I have gone too far off topic ignore me.

Eamonnator · 28-07-2015 5:29pm

Doc07 wrote: »

Does the cyclist's agent/representative get a free pass in all this? Just curious as to other opinions, especially those with a lot more experience of Irish cycling than me. It reads like he was complicit in the 'butcher meat' story. This is not speculation, I am merely taking this information from a published document. This same agent accused Greg LeMond of doping without any evidence and then quickly removed the allegations online. Again this is not speculation, this has been reported in UK media and archived.

If I have gone too far off topic ignore me.

In a criminal case, if a barrister, puts forward a defence for his client, does it mean, that he is complicit in the matter?
I think not. McQuaid was representing Kelly, nothing more.

YeahOK · 28-07-2015 5:39pm

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

my mother mentioned it to me on the phone

This is how you know stuff has gone mainstream in Ireland.:D Love it!

domestic rider banned for steroid abuse

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