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I have an idea for an app...

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Comments

  • #52
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    This just reinforces my point, tax returns can vary hugely depending on a range of different scenarios depending on marital status, no of children, residency, sources of income, health etc etc etc. This is exactly my point, why is it you feel that you can pre-empt what's involved in preparing a tax return yet others can't when it comes to app/web development?

    Because
    1) scope of typical app requests varies more wildly than scope of typical accountancy requests.
    2) you don't get unserious people who are convinced they'll be completely rich - if only they can get their accounts done in a hurry.
    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    Respectfully, nowhere is this more prominent in the accountancy. Every small business owner thinks their wife or daughter is a book keeper and will expect a reduction in the fee. I'd say most of the freelancers on here think they give their accountant a spreadsheet with a nice tidy bow wrapped around it just because they use one of the umpteen free invoicing tools that are out there.

    Weren't you just saying: I know of no other profession that openly criticizes it's customers i.e. the people who buy your services than freelance developers and designers."?

    Anyway, where are you going with this - you think accountants have the same problems as web developers?

    Hey, have you considered starting off conversations by asking people what their budget is? I hear its a good way of qualifying your potential customers.


  • #53
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    Respectfully, you're wrong. For every developer that is approached by an "entrepreneur" about the next facebook, or linkedin multiply that by ten for every accountant that has been approached about a half ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet, and basically any business idea you can conceive. How does an accountant possibly quote for these types of jobs?

    Well, you are the one saying that accountants have a better system than web developers - so, you tell us?


    Joking aside: you still don't get it.

    Whether they have a half-ass idea for a restaurant, sweet shop, retail outlet etc, just tell them you'll charge them between 500 euro a month and 2000 a month to do their books - depending on how flaky they seem.

    And you are done. Because you can service 95% of all of those businesses with a fee within a factor of 4 of each other. Or certainly factor of 10.

    Am I wrong about this?


    There is no factor of 1000 misunderstanding there.

    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    Why do posters on this forum think that they have a unique set of circumstances compared to any other profession?

    Because they genuinely do.


    (Not different to every profession, though. Tell an architect or construction engineer you want to build a mansion, and see what they ask you. Bet they ask about your budget pretty early. Ask a car engineer to build you a 'sportscar' and see what happens.)


    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    My opinion is that, web development, design and services around the internet in general are all relatively new services compared to law, tax, accounting, architecture. As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway. Therefore we get these hordes of freelancers who have no concept of what professional services really entails and ultimately we end up with forums like these with disgruntled posters cribbing about how their clients don't value them.

    So, your theory is that no one in tech knows how to be professional, and as a result, they are all here crying to each other.

    First off, yes, there could be professional membership. Maybe some day there will be. Expect your software to cost *a lot* more. I'm going to stick my neck out here, and say software in practice is typically more complex than accounting. (Not because I might be wrong, but because it sounds controversial.) So, if you want regulated membership controlled disciplines, no problem - people will then quickly learn they can't get an app built from the carded professionals for less than 100K; that'd solve all these problems, yes. It'd destroy a lot of utility, though.


    Secondly, there's no problem on this forum, developers are not here crying to each other. Their skills are in demand. This is a forum for developers talking to developers, and sometimes they like to swap stories about the crazy things they've been asked - which is fair enough - its how we learn from each other.

    The only reason there's a thread here, is because some people thought it might make sense if we could make the forum also more useful to non-developers, seeking services of developers. Not because anyone is particularly trying to obtain clients here; but because it'd be a nice thing to do, and might create utility.

    FWIW, you've convinced me personally that's just a bad idea. Not that its up to me in any way, but if it was, I'd now be in favour of no change to the forum charter. This is why we can't have nice things; etc.


  • #54
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    fergalr wrote: »
    Because
    1) scope of typical app requests varies more wildly than scope of typical accountancy requests.
    2) you don't get unserious people who are convinced they'll be completely rich - if only they can get their accounts done in a hurry.

    Respectfully... how do you know, are you a qualified accountant? If I was to reverse question 1 and say that there is more to a typical tax return than a typical app request , how many app developers would be jumping down my throat?
    fergalr wrote: »
    Anyway, where are you going with this - you think accountants have the same problems as web developers?

    No, i think that web developers have the same problems as everyone else and should stop whining about it an concentrate on providing a good service and managing client expectations.
    fergalr wrote: »
    Hey, have you considered starting off conversations by asking people what their budget is? I hear its a good way of qualifying your potential customers.

    I will admit that I am going to try this but judging by the amount of disgruntled developers on this forum it may not be the best approach.


  • #55
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    Respectfully... how do you know, are you a qualified accountant? If I was to reverse question 1 and say that there is more to a typical tax return than a typical app request , how many app developers would be jumping down my throat?

    Just tell me whether its typical for clients to estimate costs for accountancy services that are off by a factor of 100 or 1000?

    Or would a factor of 10 about cover it?


  • #56
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    fergalr wrote: »
    Just tell me whether its typical for clients to estimate costs for accountancy services that are off by a factor of 100 or 1000?

    Or would a factor of 10 about cover it?

    It doesn't happen in the first instance because client expectations are managed from the beginning. It's very simple and usually in this format: Meet the client, exchange ideas, provide a quote saying I expect this website to take this much time and cost this much, here is an example of a similar website I've developed and this is what it entails. In the event that there are overruns which are no fault of my own my daily rate is x. Finally, I require an initial upfront payment of % before I can commence work.
    If you have no experience in building said website or particular aspect of the site, you contact your professional body or someone who has an find out the average time & cost and relay that to the client.


  • #57
    croo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    As a result, there's no real professional membership with any type of clout for regulating these professions and because of the nature of the internet and the concept of open source, this would be an anathema to many people in the profession anyway.
    I failed to see what bearing open source has on this discussion either way? Would you care to elaborate on the concept of open source?


  • #58
    v638sg7k1a92bx
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,913 ✭✭✭v638sg7k1a92bx


    croo wrote: »
    I failed to see what bearing open source has on this discussion either way? Would you are to elaborate on the concept of open source?

    No I would not but I'm sure you would love that. Maybe you could create a new thread in the open source forum and I may consider contributing.


  • #59
    croo
    Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 1,336 Mod ✭✭✭✭croo


    Tristan CoolS Dust wrote: »
    No I would not but I'm sure you would love that. Maybe you could create a new thread in the open source forum and I may consider contributing.
    Well I just wanted to judge your level of competency to make such statements of fact. It appears now that your comments re open source have no bearing on the discussion and you just threw it in there to make it look like you know something about the world of software development? So, now I wonder what we should make of all other statements you make.


  • #60
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    Mod Note: This discussion was intended to be on whether or not we would continue to permit - or how we would ban - discussion on the "I have an idea and want free advice" theme in the future. It is not a discussion on whether or not professionals should be paid for their work, nor whether or not developers should "stop whining" and that side tangent ends here or bans will be issued. I am not prepared to entertain the notion that the Development forum is where people come to complain about developers charging for their work.


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  • #61
    fergalr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,922 ✭✭✭fergalr


    Sparks wrote: »
    Mod Note: This discussion was intended to be on whether or not we would continue to permit - or how we would ban - discussion on the "I have an idea and want free advice" theme in the future. It is not a discussion on whether or not professionals should be paid for their work, nor whether or not developers should "stop whining" and that side tangent ends here or bans will be issued. I am not prepared to entertain the notion that the Development forum is where people come to complain about developers charging for their work.

    So, I've been involved in the tangent part of the thread too - so that's partly my fault - didn't mean for it to get so off topic; apologies.

    For my part, though, the off-topic discussion just again serves to illustrate the pitfalls of trying to permit the "I have an idea and want free advice".

    Probably even trying to agree ground rules that make sense to everyone, and don't invite drawn-out meta-discussion, would be tough.


  • #62
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    fergalr wrote: »
    Probably even trying to agree ground rules that make sense to everyone, and don't invite drawn-out meta-discussion, would be tough.

    To be blunt, over the past year I've been finding I'm getting more and more tired modding a development forum as a developer when half the threads appear to be "solve my college assignment for me" and the other half are "do free work for me", neither of which is of any interest to me as a developer (well, I prefer engineer, but choose your own professional title is a perennial game for this industry :) ).

    The few threads of interest have been the exception to this, but they've all been threads that started talking about development (or wound up there on a tangent), whether about practices or the local development community or anything else to do with the actual job. I don't mind seeing threads where old hands mentor new ones - that's quite beneficial and nice to see. But the threads that just seem to treat the forum as a free resource -- I'm of the personal opinion that they should just be banned outright. But decisions like that taken solo don't often work out well, so I thought discussing it with other developers might be worth a try...


  • #63
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Colonel Panic wrote: »
    Did you even read his post?
    The same thought crossed my mind, TBH.
    Sparks wrote: »
    I don't mind seeing threads where old hands mentor new ones - that's quite beneficial and nice to see. But the threads that just seem to treat the forum as a free resource -- I'm of the personal opinion that they should just be banned outright. But decisions like that taken solo don't often work out well, so I thought discussing it with other developers might be worth a try...
    I don't mind someone trying to use the forum as a free resource - in reality, if you're seeking advice on a coding issue, that's what you're doing, isn't it?

    I've long been a fan of this article. What it imparts about asking questions online is something that should be adapted and recommended for all fields of research. But for something like that to work, people have to actually read it and as we saw in the little tangent in this thread, if they're not going to even read the responses made to their posts, the chances are that they're not going to read this.

    So on one side I'm loathed to see a blanket ban, because there are people who do make the effort not to abuse this and other fora when they come with their questions. There are people who want to genuinely take on technical business partners and realize the onus is on them to sell the idea. Or who have done their homework and are not simply coming here to waste everyone's time with some vague idea they had in the pub the night before.

    What I suggested earlier may be a way to quickly filter out these good 'eggs' from the bad; anyone who doesn't follow the guidelines can be quickly identified, reported and nuked.

    But I can also recognise that it may be easier simply to impose an outright ban because these good 'eggs' are so rare.


  • #64
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    I came across this simple site a few days ago, it gives a rough guide to what it costs to build an app.

    It could be a good starting point for people wondering what it costs.

    http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com/


  • #65
    Trojan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 16,413 ✭✭✭✭Trojan


    jester77 wrote: »
    I came across this simple site a few days ago, it gives a rough guide to what it costs to build an app.

    It could be a good starting point for people wondering what it costs.

    http://howmuchtomakeanapp.com/

    That's a nice, friendly site which effectively says "Absolute minimum: $5000, more like $10,000-20,000 if you want anything more complicated than bare bones functionality on a single platform".

    Which you'll see in most of the posts here :)

    🎙️ The Recognized Authority Podcast



  • #66
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    And it's probably the fault of the thread title, but this thread wasn't actually about building apps, but whether or not we should allow the "I have an idea" genre of threads in the forum anymore :)


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  • #67
    Sheeps
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,763 ✭✭✭Sheeps


    A how to ask for advice thread would be great, and freedom to rip the living piss out of someone who posts a stupid idea for an app thread would be great!


  • #68
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sparks wrote: »
    And it's probably the fault of the thread title, but this thread wasn't actually about building apps, but whether or not we should allow the "I have an idea" genre of threads in the forum anymore :)
    ...
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Note that, this isn't limited to apps alone (the title of this thread could also read "I have an idea for a Web site"), but apps in particular are in vogue for the get-rich-quick brigade and the vast majority of these threads appear to be about them.


  • #69
    Sparks
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 40,038 ✭✭✭✭Sparks


    I'm not blaming you TC, I couldn't think of a clearer title myself...


  • #70
    jester77
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,264 ✭✭✭✭jester77


    Sparks wrote: »
    I'm not blaming you TC, I couldn't think of a clearer title myself...

    ah so a poor specification had lead to an undesirable result :D


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