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Is college a privilege or a right?

13»

Comments

  • #102
    granturismo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,931 ✭✭✭granturismo


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Yes. There are many other ways.

    If you really don't know of any, I'll explain some.


    OMG, like I literally cant wait.


  • #103
    ScumLord
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,789 ✭✭✭✭ScumLord


    Knockout_91 wrote: »
    Because I missed the withdrawal date in the West by a mere 14 days, I have now found myself having to pay registration fees of €2,288 PLUS €3,500. I phoned the college in the west saying how unfair it was to claim 50% of fees from the Government considering I was only in their college for 3 or so weeks and if there was anything they could do and they said no.
    Just ignore all those letters they eventually go away.


  • #104
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    granturismo wrote: »
    OMG, like I literally cant wait.

    *Literally* means they actually did it. As in, they actually told me that once irresponsible students failed out, it would be quieter around the dorms.

    They could have *implied* that; without stating it directly. They could have *hinted* at it or *alluded* to it. They could have said, 'As the semester continues on things tend to quiet down as students focus more on their studies'; without directly saying the future dropouts are the source of the excessive noise and childish behavior.


  • #105
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    College should be a right but controlled, all you see is total losers getting grants to do some nonsenical course which will guarantee a dole queue career, they then spend college drinking and partying with free state money.

    The grant system should be abolished and instead allow for it to direct pay a students needs like accomadation where the landlord would get paid, tuition fees paid also and give no direct money to students, it would cut out alot on the alcohol fuelled binges that students prefer to go on rather than studying.


  • #106
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    speedboatchase wrote: »
    Elitist = people who have achieved academic grades that allow them to participate in courses related to their field of knowledge amid like-minded peers? If you say so... although that sounds preferable to a free-for-all of whoever feels like attending, no matter their knowledge. Maybe give them a degree for participation too? Would be "elitist" to just give awards to people who worked harder before and during the course.

    Well, effort alone shouldn't merit reward. People should be judged solely on the quality of their work produced not the effort they put into it. Many degrees are going the way of just overloading people with work and seeing who bothers to put the most effort in it as a form of assessment. Worse still, some people even get a proportion of their grade decided by their attendance in lectures. Labs I can partly understand but lectures? Does merely showing up and attending actually mean you're learning something? How does it even go towards show competency in understanding areas of biochemistry?

    In my experience, people who have interests in something, no matter how initially crap they're at that something, always seem to get good at it and continuously keep improving themselves to freakish levels. People who have ability but no interest seem to stay at that same constant level forever. I know personal experience is an extremely limited measure of anything so it might not always be the case but I think purely from reasonableness the ideal should be that everyone deserves the chance if they squander it, they squander it.


  • #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be open to only those who can afford it
    UCDVet wrote: »
    College is a joke.

    'Full-time' students go to school 7 months out of the year. Even when class is in session most of them treat it like a joke. They are far more concerned with getting drunk and laid than education.

    That's simply not true in fairness. Yes people enjoy themselves during University but that's part of it but the vast majority do take their studies seriously too. People who don't generally get found out, they make get pass degrees etc but very few if any will graduate with a decent degree without putting in plenty of effort.

    On the length of time, it is 8 months the college year but people need the summers to work to earn some money for the year, yes its difficult nowadays to get a summer job but when was in undergrad I was working for 4 months of every summer, straight from the day after my last exam until I went back after the summer, with maybe a week or so holidays during the summer.


  • #108
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Personally I dont think there should be college grants available to anyone, the country is broke after all. If I was in charge I would do away with them altogether, I would however, put a scholarship scheme in place, say if you get 500 - 600 points in your leaving cert you get a grant / scholarship. I would also try and encourage some of the leading businesses in the country to offer some sort of scholarship scheme, as in they give you grants for college and then you go work for them when you finish.

    The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

    What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

    Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

    One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

    So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
    I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

    I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

    I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

    Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

    Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

    It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.


  • #109
    bnt
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,031 ✭✭✭✭bnt


    Stinicker wrote: »
    College should be a right but controlled, all you see is total losers getting grants to do some nonsenical course which will guarantee a dole queue career, they then spend college drinking and partying with free state money.

    The grant system should be abolished and instead allow for it to direct pay a students needs like accomadation where the landlord would get paid, tuition fees paid also and give no direct money to students, it would cut out alot on the alcohol fuelled binges that students prefer to go on rather than studying.
    If what I saw at UCD in the last few years was any guide, it's not the Grant or other govt. money that bankrolls the binges, but rather The Bank of Mum & Dad. The grant is so puny these days that it could hardly fund a lavish lifestyle: €1,270 a year if you live within 45 miles of the university. "Free Fees" does not cover accommodation, either.

    Death has this much to be said for it:
    You don’t have to get out of bed for it.
    Wherever you happen to be
    They bring it to you—free.

    — Kingsley Amis



  • #110
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

    What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

    Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

    One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

    So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
    I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

    I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

    I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

    Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

    Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

    It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

    Fantastic post.

    The only issue I have with it is that the current system forces students to stick with courses they don't like. For example, a student might love Leaving Cert maths, use that as basis for thinking they'd like pure maths a degree, works really hard in the Leaving Cert and then realise half way through their first semester, or later, that they actually hate the subject. But they can't go back, the jobs prospects for this course are still supposedly quite good.They can transfer but usually a fear of losing the grant and fees causes them to press on to finish the thing. Further fear of loss of support from their parents makes things even worse again. It's mind boggling in many ways but you probably see it every year. If that same fear remains when they, or someone else, is paying their fees you'll still have the same problem.
    The bottom line is that many students are too young to afford College themselves, so the people who want the value for their money are usually the parents and they'll often force them into the courses of action that they desire. Not the one desired by the student.


  • #111
    Allie Agreeable Refrigeration
    Posts: 0 ✭ Allie Agreeable Refrigeration


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

    What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

    Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

    One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

    So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
    I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

    I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

    I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

    Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

    Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

    It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

    I would have to agree with you - the students at the college where I did my BA who were funded by the state or Mammy and Daddy generally didn't appreciate the education they were receiving and did very little. I was always motivated because it was all coming out of my own pocket.

    That said, I got a scholarship for my Masters and was so, so grateful for it. I worked harder than anyone and got the best results, because I didn't want to let the university down after they'd given me that chance. I wouldn't have been able to afford to do the Masters otherwise. I think there should be some state funding, but it should go towards students with proven academic ability and motivation, not just those from poorer families.


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  • #112
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Jernal wrote: »
    Fantastic post.

    The only issue I have with it is that the current system forces students to stick with courses they don't like. For example, a student might love Leaving Cert maths, use that as basis for thinking they'd like pure maths a degree, works really hard in the Leaving Cert and then realise half way through their first semester, or later, that they actually hate the subject. But they can't go back, the jobs prospects for this course are still supposedly quite good.They can transfer but usually a fear of losing the grant and fees causes them to press on to finish the thing. Further fear of loss of support from their parents makes things even worse again. It's mind boggling in many ways but you probably see it every year. If that same fear remains when they, or someone else, is paying their fees you'll still have the same problem.
    The bottom line is that many students are too young to afford College themselves, so the people who want the value for their money are usually the parents and they'll often force them into the courses of action that they desire. Not the one desired by the student.

    Very true. Students have the briefest window to transfer and I absolutely agree the system needs to be more flexible. I imagine that this will never happen as it will increase the workload for the army of admin workers who infest our universities. Where I work we have 1:1 parity between admin/teaching staff...the mind boggles as to what all these admin staff are doing. I (and my colleagues) research, write and deliver our own lectures, set and correct assignments, set and correct exams. Put all the marks onto an excel sheet which is uploaded to a central secure system by the dept. secretary ...

    I would be in favour of adopting the US style Liberal Arts degree where students are required to do a few modules outside their specialised area and flexibility within the system encourages and enables a far broader educational experience.

    In Ireland we actively discourage cross-disciplinary work - heaven forbid an English student should learn about Shakespeare's world placing his works in their historical context and...gasp...also be able to do some biology modules...or politics...or psychology...or that a business student should study the history of art...or geography...:eek:


  • #113
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »
    I would have to agree with you - the students at the college where I did my BA who were funded by the state or Mammy and Daddy generally didn't appreciate the education they were receiving and did very little. I was always motivated because it was all coming out of my own pocket.

    That said, I got a scholarship for my Masters and was so, so grateful for it. I worked harder than anyone and got the best results, because I didn't want to let the university down after they'd given me that chance. I wouldn't have been able to afford to do the Masters otherwise. I think there should be some state funding, but it should go towards students with proven academic ability and motivation, not just those from poorer families.

    I agree - I was only able to fund my PhD by winning competative scholarships (and working...;)).

    Scholarships are vital but should be available only to those who have proven their ability by attaining excellence in their primary degree.

    At the moment we fund BA's for everyone - with a high number of wasters - but give little to those who have proven their abilities and want to go on to post-grad (H.dips are the only post-grads who get financial support).

    We grudgingly give free fees (which are by no means guaranteed) to our proven best and brightest but nothing towards living expenses expecting them to work to support themselves while at the same time completing a PhD. It's all arseways IMHO.


  • #114
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Very true. Students have the briefest window to transfer and I absolutely agree the system needs to be more flexible. I imagine that this will never happen as it will increase the workload for the army of admin workers who infest our universities. Where I work we have 1:1 parity between admin/teaching staff...the mind boggles as to what all these admin staff are doing. I (and my colleagues) research, write and deliver our own lectures, set and correct assignments, set and correct exams. Put all the marks onto an excel sheet which is uploaded to a central secure system by the dept. secretary ...

    I would be in favour of adopting the US style Liberal Arts degree where students are required to do a few modules outside their specialised area and flexibility within the system encourages and enables a far broader educational experience.

    In Ireland we actively discourage cross-disciplinary work - heaven forbid an English student should learn about Shakespeare's world placing his works in their historical context and...gasp...also be able to do some biology modules...or politics...or psychology...or that a business student should study the history of art...or geography...:eek:

    The HSE is held accountable to some degree by the outside public. The University Administrations systems though? Heaven forbid if the general public, students or the academic faculties got wind of what it is they actually do! Some are worked until their bones begin to tear, others just labour on to some degree. It's a bit like a highly disorganised version of CIA with no need for secrecy, when you talk to people in internalised departments they still haven't a clue what the group they're in liason with is actually doing. It's just a never ending loop of confusion combined with frustration after confusion with frustration and somewhere in between you have both grad and undergrad students getting catered for. The whole thing is a mess!


  • #115
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Personally I dont think there should be college grants available to anyone, the country is broke after all. If I was in charge I would do away with them altogether, I would however, put a scholarship scheme in place, say if you get 500 - 600 points in your leaving cert you get a grant / scholarship. I would also try and encourage some of the leading businesses in the country to offer some sort of scholarship scheme, as in they give you grants for college and then you go work for them when you finish.

    The problem with this - and I speak from experience as a lecturer in an Irish university - is that due to the way our points system/2nd level is structured in many cases all 500-600 points in the Leaving Cert demonstrate is an ability to retain information and regurgitate it. We teach 2nd level students to 'learn it off' -'it' being the parts deemed likely to come up in the exams. We do NOT teach them to critically analyse, to question, to think outside the neat little boxes. The key to success in the Leaving Cert is to remain firmly inside the box and just repeat what you were told. :mad:

    What we end up with are university students (not all, but in my experience the majority) who will never achieve more than 'average' marks as they lack the ability to undertake independent study and the motivation to push themselves.

    Some one mentioned a student who has 5 hours of lectures a week - firstly, some of those would be options that student has personally selected. Secondly, this misses the point of lectures where the lecturer has 50 minutes max to impart the relevant information on a complex topic. A lecture cannot be anything more than a broad stroke guide to the important bits - the student must then take personal responsibility for further study.

    One of the areas I lecture on is the Reformation - in 50 minutes all I can do is outline the background to the situation re: Rome that annoyed Luther so much, give a brief run through of previous reformers who inspired Luther, show how Luther's theology differed from Rome's etc - then I have to cover Calvin, Knox, the Anabaptists, Henry VIII, Elizabeth's Anglican Communion compromise, political ramifications etc etc etc. ALL of this in 50 minutes!!

    So that lectures didn't turn into 50 minute dictation sessions I used to put the most of the info on Blackboard afterwards so that students could actually concentrate on listening, asking questions, thinking about the topic - what I got in return was a small minority (about 5%) who engaged fully, 5% who thought lectures/ stuff on Blackboard was all they needed and were happy to regurgitate, 5% who didn't bother with lectures and just used Blackboard. 5% who didn't even do that much and the remaining 80% who hovered around the 50% mark as they would read an extra book or two but never really question what they were reading to any depth.
    I no longer put lectures on BB - instead I tell students they can email me and I will send them on. The engaged 5% usually email me within a day, a further 20% will email me in the days before the exam. That is the level of commitment to education from most Irish university students. I should add that the 5% who make it worthwhile are nearly always mature students or students who are coping with a learning disability like dyslexia.

    I also teach mature students through Oscail (distance education run by DCU) and the difference is palpable. Most of these students have been many years out of education, many have no Leaving Cert, but ALL are committed, engaged, interested and want to understand.

    I love seeing American students - they are determined to get their monies worth and genuinely engage with the topics.

    Too many Irish students not only think a university education is a right - they think they should get a degree for just turning up occasionally.

    Most are content to regurgitate without understanding what they heard in those few lectures they turned up to and feel hard done by that not only are they expected to read books all by themselves - the lecturers have the audacity to fail to underline the 'important' bits in the books for them.

    It strikes me - and I am not alone, most of my colleagues feel the same - that as a university education is perceived as 'free' most Irish students have no mass on it. They are there for the craic and a 'sure I might as well get a degree' attitude prevails. I firmly believe that if students had to pay - via student loans - that they would be far more likely to be determined to get value for their money.

    This.

    I've been a student more than once over the last decade, and I've seen all the stuff you mention there. I'm fine with 3rd level education being a right, and the grant helped me support myself through 2 postgrads. It's appalling to see so many classmates who just didn't give a toss and thought they'd be fine just turning up, or just using the notes, or focusing on exams when 2/3 of a course was based on practical work. Most of them were using daddy's car or cash, or were there because everyone else goes to college, instead of wanting to learn something. Too many thought the degree was a trophy or status item. Very few actually sat down and read anything beside the lecture notes.

    Appalling, but not tragic. Screw 'em, I worked harder, got better results, so I'll take their job opportunities while they hand me sandwiches from behind a deli counter.


  • #116
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Sarky wrote: »
    Screw 'em, I worked harder, got better results, so I'll take their job opportunities while they hand me sandwiches from behind a deli counter.

    The Deli counter probably pays more though. :p


  • #117
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'll take job satisfaction over wages any day. I've seen and experienced some sh*tty things arising from being stuck in a repetitive dead end job.

    How many deli staff wake up every morning with "awesome! I get to go to work, woo!"?


  • #118
    UCDVet
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭UCDVet


    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    That's simply not true in fairness. Yes people enjoy themselves during University but that's part of it but the vast majority do take their studies seriously too. People who don't generally get found out, they make get pass degrees etc but very few if any will graduate with a decent degree without putting in plenty of effort.

    On the length of time, it is 8 months the college year but people need the summers to work to earn some money for the year, yes its difficult nowadays to get a summer job but when was in undergrad I was working for 4 months of every summer, straight from the day after my last exam until I went back after the summer, with maybe a week or so holidays during the summer.

    I have to respectfully disagree. Maybe certain academic programs are different; I'm sure there are some very difficult/selective/prestigious programs where the students really do work hard; but from what I've seen personally - the vast, vast majority do not.

    I've had friends who'd go out and binge drink/socialize 3-4 nights per week while only managing to attend half of their actual classes. They'd go on about how much work they had to do; but really it was from neglecting their studies for weeks or months and trying to make up for it in a grand push. In the end, I don't think I knew a single student who spent more than 30 hours per week devoted to their studies - and that's when school is in session.

    You've said 8 months; but when I counted it up using UCDs calendar I came up with closer to 7. Regardless; that's four months zero hours per week followed by eight months of drinking, partying, and maybe 20 hours of class work; with two weeks of 'Oh my gawd! School is soooo hard' as they prep for their tests.

    Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)


  • #119
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'll take job satisfaction over wages any day. I've seen and experienced some sh*tty things arising from being stuck in a repetitive dead end job.

    How many deli staff wake up every morning with "awesome! I get to go to work, woo!"?

    This time of year I get to say 'ooh please, please, please let me have some mature students, dyslexics and Yanks!!!!' :(


  • #120
    Gorky
    Registered Users Posts: 3 ✭Gorky


    Its a right to all
    I must agree with Biggins...


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  • #121
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be open to only those who can afford it
    UCDVet wrote: »

    Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)

    I completely disagree with this, I earned somewhere in the region of 5 to 6k in the summer months. This funded my petrol, insurance eating during the day and socalsing throughout the year along with buying clothes, going away and buying other things I wanted. If I had to go to college during the summer then I couldn't have worked full time meaning my parents would have to have funded all the things I could cover myself due to having a summer job.

    Also lecturing is only a small part of a "lecturers" work, research is the main part and it is essentially what they are in the university to do, lecturing is an inconvenience for them in reality. They need the summer months to catch up.


  • #122
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    UCDVet wrote: »
    Truthfully, my problem isn't even with the ones who do party and still pass - personally I think school should be a year-around affair; at least for so called 'professional students'; my problem is the ones who show up with no intention of even passing (and the schools that tolerate them)

    The problem here is running the taught programs. Even though the current Irish system is quite reliant on undergrads for funding from the State. Universities gain little themselves from taught programmes, especially undergrad ones : they need to do research! They need to attract funding for that research and get stuff published in reputable journals. All of this falls on the lecturers to do out side of their usual teaching commitments. This requires a substantial amount of time. If you expect them to devote the summer months to teaching as well . . .. Some Junior Lecturers are suffering really badly in this current climate. Most of them don't even like teaching, they just want to do research, tighten the noose around them further and you'll just make an already rocking ship even more unstable.


  • #123
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    Its a right to all
    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    UCDVet wrote: »
    College is a joke.

    'Full-time' students go to school 7 months out of the year. Even when class is in session most of them treat it like a joke. They are far more concerned with getting drunk and laid than education.

    That's simply not true in fairness. Yes people enjoy themselves during University but that's part of it but the vast majority do take their studies seriously too. People who don't generally get found out, they make get pass degrees etc but very few if any will graduate with a decent degree without putting in plenty of effort.

    On the length of time, it is 8 months the college year but people need the summers to work to earn some money for the year, yes its difficult nowadays to get a summer job but when was in undergrad I was working for 4 months of every summer, straight from the day after my last exam until I went back after the summer, with maybe a week or so holidays during the summer.
    Yes well that was when you were in college, times have changed now.


  • #124
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be open to only those who can afford it
    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    Yes well that was when you were in college, times have changed now.

    I'm still in college albeit doing a PhD now. But it was only just over 4 years ago I did my undergrad so things haven't changed that much.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time with the best of them, I was out twice a week at least all through college bar final year where it was probably once a week. None of it stopped me doing well in my exams.


  • #125
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    I completely disagree with this, I earned somewhere in the region of 5 to 6k in the summer months. This funded my petrol, insurance eating during the day and socalsing throughout the year along with buying clothes, going away and buying other things I wanted. If I had to go to college during the summer then I couldn't have worked full time meaning my parents would have to have funded all the things I could cover myself due to having a summer job.

    There is also the fact that lecturers are not actually off during the summer. My contract gives me 21 days annual leave - including Xmas and Easter recess.

    Easter study month is when we are swamped by students who suddenly realise they have done feck all and are panicking. Plus finishing up the last of the admin for modules one is coordinating plus dealing with countless emails re:my granny died so I couldn't do....

    In May the summer exams are on and we are on a strict deadline to correct them. As the scripts come in, we have to get stuck in as it is likely we will have at least one module whose exam is days before the deadline so it's all go go go with correcting (and some people have appalling handwriting which doesn't help!). In a typical year I would have 200 1st year core module + 170 option modules scripts, 150 2nd year core + 60 x 3 options scripts, 100 3rd year core module + 40 x 5 option scripts to correct by mid June.

    Late June/early July is exam board time when every student's performance in every module is discussed - for me that's over 430 1st years, 320 2nd years and 280 3rd years. Plus factor in bickering academics who just can't stfu and move on...

    Rest of July is 'leave' time - in reality that is when research on our own field of expertise is undertaken so we can publish, publish, publish!

    August is repeats and discussions of new modules. Sept is researching and updating lectures or writing new ones for new modules before term starts again at the end of the month.

    Xmas break is spent correcting modules examined by continuous assessment (including 10,000 word dissertations) and getting a head start on writing the May/August exam papers - including liaising with colleagues.

    It really isn't feasible to extend the academic year unless the workload of individual lecturers was significantly reduced.


  • #126
    Sir Pompous Righteousness
    Closed Accounts Posts: 437 ✭✭Sir Pompous Righteousness


    Its a right to all
    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »
    Yes well that was when you were in college, times have changed now.

    I'm still in college albeit doing a PhD now. But it was only just over 4 years ago I did my undergrad so things haven't changed that much.

    Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed my time with the best of them, I was out twice a week at least all through college bar final year where it was probably once a week. None of it stopped me doing well in my exams.
    Actually in economic terms 4 years is a big deal given that the recession started about 4 years ago and the economy has gone down since meaning less jobs for students during the summer.


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  • #127
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be open to only those who can afford it
    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    There is also the fact that lecturers are not actually off during the summer. My contract gives me 21 days annual leave - including Xmas and Easter recess.

    Easter study month is when we are swamped by students who suddenly realise they have done feck all and are panicking. Plus finishing up the last of the admin for modules one is coordinating plus dealing with countless emails re:my granny died so I couldn't do....

    In May the summer exams are on and we are on a strict deadline to correct them. As the scripts come in, we have to get stuck in as it is likely we will have at least one module whose exam is days before the deadline so it's all go go go with correcting (and some people have appalling handwriting which doesn't help!). In a typical year I would have 200 1st year core module + 170 option modules scripts, 150 2nd year core + 60 x 3 options scripts, 100 3rd year core module + 40 x 5 option scripts to correct by mid June.

    Late June/early July is exam board time when every student's performance in every module is discussed - for me that's over 430 1st years, 320 2nd years and 280 3rd years. Plus factor in bickering academics who just can't stfu and move on...

    Rest of July is 'leave' time - in reality that is when research on our own field of expertise is undertaken so we can publish, publish, publish!

    August is repeats and discussions of new modules. Sept is researching and updating lectures or writing new ones for new modules before term starts again at the end of the month.

    Xmas break is spent correcting modules examined by continuous assessment (including 10,000 word dissertations) and getting a head start on writing the May/August exam papers - including liaising with colleagues.

    It really isn't feasible to extend the academic year unless the workload of individual lecturers was significantly reduced.

    I understand all this, I'm doing a PhD myself so see a lot of this first hand. I actually edited my post to comment on this however for the sake of that post I was speaking about it from a students point of view which is why I didn't go into detail about the lecturers side of things.


  • #128
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    UCDVet wrote: »

    I've had friends who'd go out and binge drink/socialize 3-4 nights per week while only managing to attend half of their actual classes. They'd go on about how much work they had to do; but really it was from neglecting their studies for weeks or months and trying to make up for it in a grand push. In the end, I don't think I knew a single student who spent more than 30 hours per week devoted to their studies - and that's when school is in session.

    This reminded me of an experience I had when I first started lecturing. A student handed in an essay that was so...disjointed... that I wondered if perhaps they had a learning disability I was unaware of. Got in touch with the disability support unit, they never heard of him. Didn't want to fail it in case the student may be undiagnosed so I sent it (removed student's name) to two separate educational psychologists working in two different institutions to get their opinion. Both concluded that the essay read like it had been written in the pub by someone who didn't give a ****e.

    I failed it. Student's Daddy threatened me with legal action :rolleyes:


  • #129
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    This reminded me of an experience I had when I first started lecturing. A student handed in an essay that was so...disjointed... that I wondered if perhaps they had a learning disability I was unaware of. Got in touch with the disability support unit, they never heard of him. Didn't want to fail it in case the student may be undiagnosed so I sent it (removed student's name) to two separate educational psychologists working in two different institutions to get their opinion. Both concluded that the essay read like it had been written in the pub by someone who didn't give a ****e.

    I failed it. Student's Daddy threatened me with legal action :rolleyes:

    Sorry to hear that. On what grounds did daddy threaten to sue you? The grounds that you exposed his son as someone who shouldnt be there?


  • #130
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Sorry to hear that. On what grounds did daddy threaten to sue you? The grounds that you exposed his son as someone who shouldnt be there?

    Oh, there are always a few Daddy's or Mammies threatening to sue whoever dared fail their little Sorcha or Faichra so we double correct each other's work to make doubly sure that those who deserve to fail - really do fail. Sometimes though it's out of our hands...


  • #131
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Walking through college today its really amazing what a large number of people think of college. They just dont respect the fact that they are very lucky to be there.

    There has been a huge amount of this generation that have seen college as a fashionable thing to do. People who think like that shouldnt be there. You shouldnt just go to college because your friends are going.

    People have talked here about mature students actually wanting to learn and I agree. The fact is every mature student is assessed for suitability in the course they applied for and that in my opinion is the way to do it. Im glad Trinity are bringing in a similar method because the cao has being sending us wave after wave of the entitlement generation who in a lot of cases bouth their way into college through grind schools and have no real interest in the course at hand. Its frankly shocking that we have students who go out three times a week in some cases and were paying for it while some students really struggle to by the college essentials (books, lab gear ect). Mammy and daddy's well funded offspring are grinding their way into college and they simply shouldnt be funded.

    Take me as an example my grammer is terrible. I do read a lot of books but I have a long way to go before I would be comfortble with my writing. For science the writing is very basic and too the point which suits me. My teachers in essence didnt give a flying about actually teaching and teaching a student to love a subject. Yet If I applied through the cao to literature I would get in. Despite the fact I would be unsuitable for the course. Its not to much to screen people before we as taxpayers fund people who are wasters. If mammy and daddy are paying for their kids clothes, rent and whatever they can pay their yearly fees. That way the entitlement generation wont be wasting taxpayers money and my time as an academic.


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  • #132
    sock puppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    As a proud functioning alcholic I have to say I'm offended by the railing against students going out several times a week.


  • #133
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    Totally off topic, but eddy did you ever consider reading a book (or paper) on scientific writing e.g Craft of Scientific Writing by Alley, or even Dawkins' more fun for easy reading "Oxford Book of Modern Scientific Writing." There are loads others.

    I don't have access to the databases at the moment but if you can find it there's an excellent paper about how writing boring technical writing actually costs discoveries and progress. (Iirc, the paper cites Watson's and Cricks last paragraph's or sentence's visible enthusiasm as the reason the gravity of what they had discovered struck the reader. It also showed how numerous discoveries in crystallography were glossed over because the papers' abstracts were too cold and aloof - the discoveries ended up being discovered on more than one occasion! Internet and blogs today somewhat negate this though. But still. If you can find it, it's worth it. Just keep pm'ing me every month if you can't. :D)


  • #134
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    sock puppet wrote: »
    As a proud functioning alcholic I have to say I'm offended by the railing against students going out several times a week.

    The only thing I would say to you is that people like that arent students. Their just people who attend college.


  • #135
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Jernal wrote: »
    Totally off topic, but eddy did you ever consider reading a book (or paper) on scientific writing e.g Craft of Scientific Writing by Alley, or even Dawkins' more fun for easy reading "Oxford Book of Modern Scientific Writing." There are loads others.

    I don't have access to the databases at the moment but if you can find it there's an excellent paper about how writing boring technical writing actually costs discoveries and progress. (Iirc, the paper cites Watson's and Cricks last paragraph or sentence visible enthusiasm as the reason the gravity of what they had discovered struck the reader. It also showed how numerous discovered in crystallography were glossed over because the paper abstracts were too cold and aloof. Internet and blogs today somewhat negate this though. But still. If you can find it, it's worth it. Just keep pm'ing me every month if you can't. :D)


    Hey I actually read Dawkin's book thanks! I think its fantastic and it contains some beautiful pieces of biochemistry in particular (found in some of the zoology papers). My scientific writing is good at the moment thanks. My grammer in everyday English needs much improving though. So when Dawkins writes a book on that Ill snap it up!

    Yes Rosalind Franklin discovered DNA's helixical structure before Watson or Crick did. In fact I think they visited her office while she was away and looked at her notes (or so the story goes).


  • #136
    Turtwig
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Hey I actually read Dawkin's book thanks! I think its fantastic and it contains some beautiful pieces of biochemistry in particular (found in some of the zoology papers). My scientific writing is good at the moment thanks. My grammer in everyday English needs much improving though. So when Dawkins writes a book on that Ill snap it up!

    Yes Rosalind Franklin discovered DNA's helixical structure before Watson or Crick did. In fact I think they visited her office while she was away and looked at her notes (or so the story goes).

    If you'll excuse me for being presumptuous. I think I know where you're coming from the suggestions in this thread I got were excellent.
    (Gave me an excuse to read more classics too. :D )

    But yeah Dawkins is one hell of a writer. Seriously he needs to write a piece of fiction like Sagan did. Um, yeah I heard that story too. Love those little background stories in science actually.


  • #137
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Jernal wrote: »
    If you'll excuse me for being presumptuous. I think I know where you're coming from the suggestions in this thread I got were excellent.
    (Gave me an excuse to read more classics too. :D )

    On the contrary I would call it being helpful, thanks. I will look at that thread and move away from the sterile science books!


  • #138
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 24,714 ✭ [Deleted User]


    It should be open to only those who can afford it
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Its frankly shocking that we have students who go out three times a week in some cases and were paying for it while some students really struggle to by the college essentials (books, lab gear ect). Mammy and daddy's well funded offspring are grinding their way into college and they simply shouldnt be funded.

    Students in going out shocker!! Come on going out is part and parcel of college and of life in general. As I've said earlier I was out twice a week during my undergrad and it had no effect on my exams and I go out as much now if now more. I got no grant either by the way so saying "we are paying for it" is nonsense, I either used the money I earned in summer jobs or got money from my parents.

    Imo people should be funded regardless of their parents income, just because they went to a grind school should not be a reason not to fund them in university, its a separate thing altogether. Also just because people go to a grind school for their leaving cert year does not mean they are rolling in money.

    Of course People who earn more money in turn pay tax a lot more tax also so they are already putting more money towards the countrys coffers as things are, its ridiculous to expect them to then pay large sums of money for university tuition fees. What's the point in earning a high wage if its all taken off you.


  • #139
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    Students in going out shocker!! Come on going out is part and parcel of college and of life in general. As I've said earlier I was out twice a week during my undergrad and it had no effect on my exams and I go out as much now if now more. I got no grant either by the way so saying "we are paying for it" is nonsense, I either used the money I earned in summer jobs or got money from my parents.

    Imo people should be funded regardless of their parents income, just because they went to a grind school should not be a reason not to fund them in university, its a separate thing altogether. Also just because people go to a grind school for their leaving cert year does not mean they are rolling in money.

    Of course People who earn more money in turn pay tax a lot more tax also so they are already putting more money towards the countrys coffers as things are, its ridiculous to expect them to then pay large sums of money for university tuition fees. What's the point in earning a high wage if its all taken off you.

    I don't think anyone is quibbling with students going out. What people are complaining about is the number of students for whom the purpose of going to university is the social aspect and have scant interest in the actual purpose of attending a university which is to gain an education.

    I know that several times last year when I taught a case study class of 30 2nd years (average age 20) on more than one occasion students requested we open the windows as the smell of stale alcohol off a good few of their fellow students would gag a donkey - this class was held between 3-5 pm on a Wednesday.


  • #140
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »
    Students in going out shocker!! Come on going out is part and parcel of college and of life in general. As I've said earlier I was out twice a week during my undergrad and it had no effect on my exams and I go out as much now if now more. I got no grant either by the way so saying "we are paying for it" is nonsense, I either used the money I earned in summer jobs or got money from my parents. .

    Fair enough but is that the sort of thing that taxpayers should be funding?
    Imo people should be funded regardless of their parents income, just because they went to a grind school should not be a reason not to fund them in university, its a separate thing altogether. Also just because people go to a grind school for their leaving cert year does not mean they are rolling in money.

    I wouldnt say that all private school or grind students are rich. On the contrary my aunt and uncle crucified themselves to get their kids into private school. My arguement is the leaving cert is supposed to test academic ability of all kids. When you give one kid grinds and extra teachers and another goes to a school where the teachers dont care then there are too many varibles for the leaving to test ability. My arguement was that the kids who felt college was an entitlement were not as academically gifted as those who came after them (eg mature students). The grinds and the private school can make up for a lack of academic ability. When students go to college because they feel entitleled to it then we get to a stage where people arent going to excell.

    Of course People who earn more money in turn pay tax a lot more tax also so they are already putting more money towards the countrys coffers as things are,.

    As I voted academic ability alone should dictate who gets into college and their suitabilty for the course should dictate what course they get into. Not mammy and daddys money.

    I always hear students talking about their parents worked hard for their money ect and their perfectly right. Their parents barring inheritence probrably did work hard for the money. Their kids should benifit of that but in no way should they be given an academic advantage over a student that hasnt the good fortune to have wealthy parents. To think that a student feels entitled to college not because of money he earned but money his daddy or mammy earned is why we have the wasters we do in college.

    A student should be there for academic reasons alone and I think college entails sacrifice. For a kid from a wealthy family that might mean his parents paying large fees and for a poor student (of which there are many) that might mean barely eating.
    its ridiculous to expect them to then pay large sums of money for university tuition fees. What's the point in earning a high wage if its all taken off you

    Like in American colleges for example? I suppose high tuition fees there put people off working to try and earn a high wage?


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