Is college a privilege or a right?

Taco Chips · 23-09-2012 9:49pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

I know they do but not to the level of a 4th year biochemsit.

Yes, but a student in 4th year biochemistry hasn't gotten there by accident and has definitely got the smarts to go a long way.

The point I was trying to make is that the university system is flexible enough so the majority of people tackling hard subjects have the ability/desire to do so in the first place. It's not like there are legions of incompetent biochemists being produced by colleges.

steddyeddy · 23-09-2012 9:52pm

Taco Chips wrote: »

Yes, but a student in 4th year biochemistry hasn't gotten there by accident and has definitely got the smarts to go a long way.

The point I was trying to make is that the university system is flexible enough so the majority of people tackling hard subjects have the ability/desire to do so in the first place. It's not like there are legions of incompetent biochemists being produced by colleges.

Well Im a biochemist and I would disagree to be honest as would a lot of other scientists.

Edit: Sorry thats not fair. I should say they are competent but not as good as they could be. The wrong people are getting into college.

Taco Chips · 23-09-2012 10:05pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Well Im a biochemist and I would disagree to be honest as would a lot of other scientists.

Edit: Sorry thats not fair. I should say they are competent but not as good as they could be. The wrong people are getting into college.

Interesting, but what makes you think that there are so man undiscovered talented potential biochemists out there? Enough to warrant overhauling the whole education system?

Odysseus · 23-09-2012 10:12pm

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Speaking as someone who left 2nd level at 15 with no qualifications, it was another 15 years before i got my degree; 3rd level should be an option that is available to anyone who desires it. I would see it as a right, but I would be in favour of low interest loans being available to facilitate people right up to PhD level. When people graduate and enter the work place they start to pay back the loans.

PizzamanIRL · 23-09-2012 10:35pm

Its a right to all

Based on intelligence and academic ability.

Only people who are serious about their education should be in college, no messers or clowns like school that just distract the class.

m5ex9oqjawdg2i · 23-09-2012 10:37pm

Education should be a right and all should have access to it.

doolox · 23-09-2012 10:41pm

.....specifically for education and development of all adults, working or non working where loans are paid back through levies on wages earned above a certain threshold over the working lifetime of the recipient.

For example if someone uses their loan to get a degree but cannot get a relevant job out of it and are unemployed or in a min wage temporary job, they should not have to pay back the loan immediately.

When they finally get a relevant job that pays well enough then they should pay back the loan.

Degrees in abstract and obscure subjects should be excluded from such a scheme and only degrees with a fair chance of securing employment should be considered for the scheme.

I do not know how the government could enforce payment in the event of the person emigrating and this is a big risk with such a scheme. It might be possible to extend collection across EU borders but would need co-operation with other EU members.

seantorious · 23-09-2012 10:42pm

Its a right to all

Education should be a right but in reality it has to remain a privilege to those who have academic ability. We can't afford to train x hundred journalist majors per year when only a certain percent will get a job in the industry and could have got along with a 2 year course or training our of school.
It should be based on industry needs and not the desire to study something.
It may be a right but we have to accept the fact that education is expensive and something we have to moderate as horrible a phrase as that is.

23-09-2012 10:48pm

Odysseus wrote: »

Speaking as someone who left 2nd level at 15 with no qualifications, it was another 15 years before i got my degree; 3rd level should be an option that is available to anyone who desires it. I would see it as a right, but I would be in favour of low interest loans being available to facilitate people right up to PhD level. When people graduate and enter the work place they start to pay back the loans.

Like most British students, I got a loan for my BA and it might be low interest, but it's still about 100 euro a month to pay back and I'm a low earner. It makes a massive difference to my take home pay. I don't find it fair that I have to pay this back every month for the rest of my working life when I worked really hard and did really well, while other people got a full grant to mess around for 4 years and then fail or graduate with a third, just because they came from 'poor' families. Seems much fairer for capable/dedicated students to get funding, regardless of family background.

BOHtox · 23-09-2012 10:51pm

Its a right to all

I think the right to access to education is a right. The education itself should be a privilege. You should have to pay for it. If that means you take a year or two after the leaving cert and work well then so be it. You might see the drop out rate fall so...

steddyeddy · 23-09-2012 11:06pm

Taco Chips wrote: »

Interesting, but what makes you think that there are so man undiscovered talented potential biochemists out there? Enough to warrant overhauling the whole education system?

Thanks for asking and sorry if my posts came across as being dismissive. I know that the talent is out there because I meet them. The most talented students I know have been mature students or those who came to science through an access course.

On the converse I have worked with certain sections of society who consider it a right that they go to college. They by and large are sections of society who have traditionally gone to college and traditionally they havent been the sort that apreciated it or excelled at it. Im talking about anyone who thinks their economic circumstances entitle them to college over someone who really wants to go to college.

Anyone who enters science and doesnt know what they want to do shouldnt be there and there are plenty of people like that. This year we had a guy enter who wanted to do physics or botany. The same year we had someone who in his part time read biochemistry books for fun and wanted to investigate the quantum mechanics of photosynthesis. He looked that up himself and hes a natural scientist. People like that are having to return as mature students where people who can afford grinds or better student-teacher ratios are getting in.

Again this is just my opinion so Im not out to offend people.

Ziphius · 23-09-2012 11:23pm

Its a right to all

steddyeddy wrote: »

Anyone who enters science and doesnt know what they want to do shouldnt be there and there are plenty of people like that. This year we had a guy enter who wanted to do physics or botany.

I have to challenge you on this. I'm certain that many (perhaps most) students starting college have no idea what the want to do career wise. And restricted entry only to those with a fixed career plan, I feel, is unfair. Science courses in Irish universities are typically very broad and allow students to sample many fields before settling on their on niche of interest.

I think we need to maintain a balance in our education system between education as a process of vocational advancement and a means unto itself.

IsThisIt??? · 23-09-2012 11:26pm

I find myself developing an opinion that could prove unpopular, but here it goes anyway.

I think too much money is being wasted on students with poor academic ability in lesser known institutes. There are lads getting around 200 points in their leaving, who still get to do some sort of business course (for example) in some lesser known college and receive the same financial assistance as someone who receives above average results in their leaving cert and has proven themselves academically able. I'm not talking about the grant here (which I think needs drastic reform), I mean the government paid fees.

I'm not picking on the colleges which offer these courses as I find they offer good range of interesting and worthwhile courses to many capable students. I even wonder about my own college (NUIG), especially with the arts program. I don't have any figures to hand but the drop out rate after first year seems huge, I see this as a waste of government money with a lot of these students basically entering college with the knowledge that they're only going to be around for 1 year so they'll just enjoy it.

Exceptions do need to be made in certain circumstances but, more generally, a greater degree of importance has to be put on academic ability and intelligence before the government hand over any money.

steddyeddy · 23-09-2012 11:31pm

Ziphius wrote: »

I have to challenge you on this. I'm certain that many (perhaps most) students starting college have no idea what the want to do career wise. And restricted entry only to those with a fixed career plan, I feel, is unfair. Science courses in Irish universities are typically very broad and allow students to sample many fields before settling on their on niche of interest.

I think we need to maintain a balance in our education system between education as a process of vocational advancement and a means unto itself.

Im not even talking about people who have a career path worked out. Im talking about people with an interest over those who dont. I agree that its hard to know straight after school but there are people out there who do have an interest in science or whatever before starting college.

bnt · 23-09-2012 11:38pm

Not everyone leaving school should go to university, but if they don't ... what else do they do these days?

There was a time when it was quite feasible and acceptable to take on an apprenticeship instead - and it didn't mean you were thick, it just meant that you weren't suited to the academic lifestyle. They do still exist e.g. for hairdressers and car mechanics, and I would never look down my nose at someone who can rebuild an engine or style hair beautifully. There used to be industrial apprenticeships, though, and those have all but vanished along with the industries that provided them.

SO now there appears to be a conveyor belt leading straight from school to university, and woe betide anyone who falls off the belt ... too much is at stake now, which leaves me wondering why anyone would take an "Arts" degree. :P

megaten · 23-09-2012 11:40pm

It's more of a nuisance than either really.

Gordon Gecko · 23-09-2012 11:42pm

The students who do the best in their Leaving Cert exams should be allowed to do whatever they want in University - regardless of their social background, family income or anything else like that. You can wax on about how bad the Leaving Cert is and such, but it rewards the people who work and study hard and is a dozen times better than the "lottery system" proposed by that cretin von Prondzynski! Hence cold hard results should be the sole determinant of who gets into college.

Sitec · 23-09-2012 11:48pm

I think choosing a college degree at 18 is too young, that's why many younger people fail college and money is wasted.
The truth is I'm 25 and returned to college two years ago, best decision I've ever made but I know if I was 18 in the same situation I would have pissed the whole experience away. I think people should get real world experience for two or three years after completing secondary school. Not only to see what profession they want to pursue but to get some real life skills and then decide.

bnt · 23-09-2012 11:52pm

PS: I think the word "right" is a bit misused in this thread. If you have a "right" to do something, it means that no-one can just stop you from doing it. But it does not imply an obligation on anyone else to help you do it.

So a "right" to education doesn't mean that it's going to be free or paid for, only that you won't be excluded because of who you are. I have the "right" to own a Ferrari, but I probably never will. No-one's stopping me, I just can't afford it.

A better word would be one used in the USA to describe things like Medicare and Social Security: "entitlement".

Ziphius · 23-09-2012 11:53pm

Its a right to all

steddyeddy wrote: »

Im not even talking about people who have a career path worked out. Im talking about people with an interest over those who dont. I agree that its hard to know straight after school but there are people out there who do have an interest in science or whatever before starting college.

Of course. Perhaps I misread you. My point was that someone with a broad general interest in a science (or any discipline) shouldn't be precluded from studying it.

Turtwig · 23-09-2012 11:54pm

In the ideal anyone should be allowed access to whatever education they wish to try.

In the practical world students should be means tested, interviewed for interest levels e.g why they want to study this course? and independently performance reviewed based on their performances. Not to see if they're attaining grades but if they're actually working through the content or engaging with it. I don't buy the suggestion that high achievers in the leaving cert should be given priority. The Leaving Cert is a joke at the moment. If they're rote learners then you don't really want them to be given priority. I'd rather the student who got a C in maths because he questioned every single axiom and theorem because he couldn't understand them. Not the student who was lazy, or the one who just learnt off the theorems.

The current system though is a sham. 70-80% of students study subjects they have no interest in, blatantly question the relevance of lectures, some still excel and then complain afterwards when they get no jobs as if that was the whole purpose of their mostly wasted education in the first place. The purpose of education is education itself. I hate it utterly when people dismiss arts as a subject. Universities are mostly degree factories at this stage.

Rayne Wooney · 24-09-2012 12:02am

IsThisIt??? wrote: »

I think too much money is being wasted on students with poor academic ability in lesser known institutes. There are lads getting around 200 points in their leaving,

There was a Chinese kid in my school, an absolute genius. The maths teachers went to him when they were stuck on a problem, they reckoned he could become one of the leading mathematicians in Ireland. He got A1 100 points in maths on the Leaving, D3 in English and Geography, and failed the rest... 230 points I think he got not enough for any decent math course in college.

Academic ability isn't how many points you get on the Leaving.

steddyeddy · 24-09-2012 12:04am

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There was a Chinese kid in my school, an absolute genius. The maths teachers went to him when they were stuck on a problem, they reckoned he could become one of the leading mathematicians in Ireland. He got A1 100 points in maths on the Leaving, D3 in English and Geography, and failed the rest... 230 points I think he got not enough for any decent math course in college.

Academic ability isn't how many points you get on the Leaving.

Bingo!

IsThisIt??? · 24-09-2012 12:11am

Rayne Wooney wrote: »

There was a Chinese kid in my school, an absolute genius. The maths teachers went to him when they were stuck on a problem, they reckoned he could become one of the leading mathematicians in Ireland. He got A1 100 points in maths on the Leaving, D3 in English and Geography, and failed the rest... 230 points I think he got not enough for any decent math course in college.

Academic ability isn't how many points you get on the Leaving.

I accept this, which is why I said exceptions do need to be made in certain circumstances. In fact, the student from your school would be quite an easy exception to spot given that English is not his first language.

I don't think the Leaving Cert is a perfect measure of academic ability and I especially don't think it's an accurate measure of intelligence, however it is all we have to work with at the minute.

Einhard · 24-09-2012 12:31am

I think that access to education is a right, but that doesn't necessarily mean it should be free. I mean, I have the right to go on foreign holidays, and to drive a car, but that doesn't mean I should get them gratis.

However, neither do I believe that fnancial status should be an obstacle to education. I'd favour a loans system for students, with re-payments kicking in once a certain level of income was achieved.

Some of that money could then be used to directly target those from lower socio-economic background who, almost two decades after free fees, still do not access third level in anywhere near the numbers of their middle class counterparts. The sad fact about free fees is that they have entrenched inequality of access, not diminished it.

Galwayguy35 · 24-09-2012 4:45am

Its a right to all

I did my Leaving Cert in 1992 which was when fees where still there if people wanted to go to college.

Did some people who wanted to go not get the chance because they couldn't afford it?

The answer is yes but on the other hand those in my class who went worked their asses off to get good points because they knew it was costing their parents a lot of money and the idea of just going for a year to do no study and dropping out would have sounded crazy.

Sala · 24-09-2012 9:48am

The system we have is flawed but it is fundamentally basedon the ideas that thje smartest people who apply get into the courses first and a low family income is not a bar to acess. However, I think more money needs to be directed into 2nd level education to help people in disadvantaged schools progress to 3rd level.

I went to college as it was expected and I floated through my BA, only putting in the work at exam time. I'm glad I have it as I couldn't have done professional exams without it, but that's pretty much all it's useful for.

After working for a couple of years and doing professional exams and a diploma, I find that as a working adult paying for your own courses, making a more informed and career based decision to do further study, you work a lot harder. I'm glad to see a move towards more distance learning and part-time courses in colleges.

Sir Pompous Righteousness · 24-09-2012 9:55am

Its a right to all

Free education is a pivilege. Rights are only those thing that can be taken away from you, i.e., natural or negative rights. Positive rights, like free heathcare or free educattion are privileges.

speedboatchase · 24-09-2012 9:58am

Its a right to all

A right? Does that mean that everyone should go to college despite their academic ability?

Slurryface · 24-09-2012 10:09am

Its a right to all

speedboatchase wrote: »

A right? Does that mean that everyone should go to college despite their academic ability?

Yes, and of course someone else should foot the bill!:mad:

24-09-2012 10:10am

Its a right to all

speedboatchase wrote: »

A right? Does that mean that everyone should go to college despite their academic ability?

A right to do something is not an obligation to do it

Turtwig · 24-09-2012 10:10am

speedboatchase wrote: »

A right? Does that mean that everyone should go to college despite their academic ability?

Ideally yes, academic ability contrary to popular stigma is something acquired not born with. There will of course be a teensy tiny percentage of people who will have innate advantages or disadvantages over others but compared to the whole these are remarkably few.

Odysseus · 24-09-2012 10:30am

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »

Like most British students, I got a loan for my BA and it might be low interest, but it's still about 100 euro a month to pay back and I'm a low earner. It makes a massive difference to my take home pay. I don't find it fair that I have to pay this back every month for the rest of my working life when I worked really hard and did really well, while other people got a full grant to mess around for 4 years and then fail or graduate with a third, just because they came from 'poor' families. Seems much fairer for capable/dedicated students to get funding, regardless of family background.

Surely you will only pay back the cost of your fees plus a fixed amount of interest, you can't be paying this back until your in your late sixites.

Blisterman · 24-09-2012 10:35am

I think it's a privilege, but I also think that education and a well trained workforce is in the best interests of everyone in a society, so it should be supported by the government.

I do think, however, there should be caps on how many places are funded on each course, based on predicted demand for certain skills.

ie, there's only going to ever be a small demand for footwear designers, yet that's an extremely popular course here in the UK.

The best system would be to have, maybe 20 places a year which are funded by the government, offered to the students who show the most promise (not necessarily those with the most points).

Any other university who wants to offer such a course, won't get any government funding, and will have to charge appropriate fees, thus discouraging people who aren't suited towards courses they may be better suited for, and for which there's greater demand.

You'll still have rich kids parents paying their kids way into uni, but that will happen anyway, and at least this way the government's not paying.

Lollipops23 · 24-09-2012 10:40am

Its a right to all

I think it's a privilege, but it should be available to anyone who works hard enough for it. You don't have an automatic "right" to it, you need to put in the effort and have the smarts to make it work.

I saw far too many idiots in college who were just there to drink and piss away mammy and daddy's cash. They're not what 3rd level education is about.

speedboatchase · 24-09-2012 10:42am

Its a right to all

Jernal wrote: »

Ideally yes, academic ability contrary to popular stigma is something acquired not born with. There will of course be a teensy tiny percentage of people who will have innate advantages or disadvantages over others but compared to the whole these are remarkably few.

So every single person who wants to study biochemistry for example, no matter their ability, has a right to be part of a degree course - this what you're saying?

donalg1 · 24-09-2012 10:44am

Its a right to all

Personally I dont think there should be college grants available to anyone, the country is broke after all. If I was in charge I would do away with them altogether, I would however, put a scholarship scheme in place, say if you get 500 - 600 points in your leaving cert you get a grant / scholarship. I would also try and encourage some of the leading businesses in the country to offer some sort of scholarship scheme, as in they give you grants for college and then you go work for them when you finish.

24-09-2012 10:46am

Odysseus wrote: »

Surely you will only pay back the cost of your fees plus a fixed amount of interest, you can't be paying this back until your in your late sixites.

The problem is that people on a low to average income, i.e most people, are only earning enough to pay back the interest. I've been paying mine off for over 2 years now and still haven't even paid off the interest. It gets automatically deducted from your pay, same as tax and National Insurance, so if you take some time off work (no paid holidays in my industry) the interest starts to build back up. I took a year off full time work to do a Masters and the interest was building up the whole time.

My loan wasn't for fees, it was mainly for living costs, which were pretty damn high in Dublin at the time. I took out the bare minimum and worked part-time all the way through college, but it's still a lot of money. The UK student loan system is really, really flawed. It's so disheartening to see so much of your monthly pay go towards your loan, but know that it's making very little difference.

Mr Benevolent · 24-09-2012 10:54am

Its a right to all

Privilege.

Knockout_91 · 24-09-2012 10:56am

Its a right to all

It is a privilege which most don't appreciate.

I'll give you my experience. I went to University in the West of Ireland and I dropped out after 6 weeks. I missed the withdrawal date by exactly 14 days.

I came back to Dublin, found myself a job, and took two years out working in said job.
This year I decided to return to college to get myself a degree. I am now attending a University in Dublin. Because I missed the withdrawal date in the West by a mere 14 days, I have now found myself having to pay registration fees of €2,288 PLUS €3,500. I phoned the college in the west saying how unfair it was to claim 50% of fees from the Government considering I was only in their college for 3 or so weeks and if there was anything they could do and they said no.

I'm now working a part time job in order to pay off a loan for approx €5000 for this year alone (excluding cost of living). My parents don't contribute a cent (even though they can afford to) as they already paid the registration fees in the West, which is fair enough.

After all that, my point is, it angers me seeing all these people receiving grants, living the college life getting hammered every second night, while I'm struggling to pay off €5000 and can't afford to head out with them as I've work first thing the next morning plus I simply can't afford the nights out like them.

Many of them will more than likely drop out anyways.

It's funny how they can afford to get sh*tfaced every night yet they can't afford college fees?

The system is a joke here.

Turtwig · 24-09-2012 10:57am

speedboatchase wrote: »

So every single person who wants to study biochemistry for example, no matter their ability, has a right to be part of a degree course - this what you're saying?

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

24-09-2012 11:01am

It should be open to only those who can afford it

Allie Agreeable Refrigeration wrote: »

The problem is that people on a low to average income, i.e most people, are only earning enough to pay back the interest. I've been paying mine off for over 2 years now and still haven't even paid off the interest. It gets automatically deducted from your pay, same as tax and National Insurance, so if you take some time off work (no paid holidays in my industry) the interest starts to build back up. I took a year off full time work to do a Masters and the interest was building up the whole time.

My loan wasn't for fees, it was mainly for living costs, which were pretty damn high in Dublin at the time. I took out the bare minimum and worked part-time all the way through college, but it's still a lot of money. The UK student loan system is really, really flawed. It's so disheartening to see so much of your monthly pay go towards your loan, but know that it's making very little difference.

Slightly off topic but as you said the loan is automatically deducted form your pay but what happens if you move abroad to work? I assume you are required to set up some other system of payment or do people try to avoid paying it?

speedboatchase · 24-09-2012 11:01am

Its a right to all

Jernal wrote: »

Yes, that is what I'm saying.

Seems to go against the principle of "higher-level" education, if you ask me.

Turtwig · 24-09-2012 11:06am

speedboatchase wrote: »

Seems to go against the principle of "higher-level" education, if you ask me.

Yeah I guess if you still want education to remain elitist that doesn't bode well.

UCDVet · 24-09-2012 11:06am

College is a joke.

'Full-time' students go to school 7 months out of the year. Even when class is in session most of them treat it like a joke. They are far more concerned with getting drunk and laid than education.

The behavior at/around the dorms at UCD is unbelievable. More like a pack of unsupervised monkeys than students. I was literally told by a university official that things 'quite down' once kids start failing out.

24-09-2012 11:07am

Madisyn Loose Bleach wrote: »

Slightly off topic but as you said the loan is automatically deducted for pay but what happens if you move abroad to work? I assume you are required to set up some other system of payment or do people try to avoid paying it?

Both. You're supposed to arrange to pay it back, but hardly anyone does. It's a lose-lose situation, though, because if you don't pay it back, the interest builds up and you're back to square 1. They chase you up eventually so you can't avoid paying it forever. I've actually just moved abroad and I'm delaying getting in touch with them because I just can't afford to pay anything back at the moment. I need to pay my rent and eat.

Awful system, IMO. Really awkward. If I could go back and do college again, I'd have taken a year out beforehand to save up as much as I could in advance.

granturismo · 24-09-2012 11:15am

UCDVet wrote: »

. I was literally told by a university official that things 'quite down' once kids start failing out.

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

speedboatchase · 24-09-2012 11:16am

Its a right to all

Jernal wrote: »

Yeah I guess if you still want education to remain elitist that doesn't bode well.

Elitist = people who have achieved academic grades that allow them to participate in courses related to their field of knowledge amid like-minded peers? If you say so... although that sounds preferable to a free-for-all of whoever feels like attending, no matter their knowledge. Maybe give them a degree for participation too? Would be "elitist" to just give awards to people who worked harder before and during the course.

24-09-2012 11:17am

Its a right to all

granturismo wrote: »

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

He might have been told figuratively about how down and depressed they all are once the kids leave

UCDVet · 24-09-2012 11:17am

granturismo wrote: »

Is there another way of being told rather than 'literally'?

Yes. There are many other ways.

If you really don't know of any, I'll explain some.

Is college a privilege or a right?

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