M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

marno21 · 02-02-2020 4:04pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Where the influence could be / would be in determining what the capital budget is spent on ,if there's say 10 billion and its spent on Dart underground and metro North ,then there's nothing left over for new motorways ...

The Greens will be a junior coalition member though, and if it's presumably FF as the senior partner, roads investment is guaranteed or there will be a significant rural backlash were all the money to be spent in Dublin.

The Greens have said that they are pro connecting Cork and Limerick but they would prefer to connect Ireland's 5th city with Limerick and connect Cork as a byproduct of this. When the economic sums are done and this is proven to be a non runner, they might cop on and get behind the M20 for regional connectivity, or improved public transport or whatever.

The constituencies that the M20 runs through will elect quite a few FF TDs and these TDs will not be rowing in behind any east Limerick/N24 option.

Limerick74 · 03-02-2020 7:55pm

More from the Green Party on the M20 https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Green-Party-defends-stance-on-Cork-to-Limerick-motorway-2b0f4e04-61a8-41a0-bca3-b0df8e684e40-ds

Kevtherev1 · 03-02-2020 9:20pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

More from the Green Party on the M20 https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Green-Party-defends-stance-on-Cork-to-Limerick-motorway-2b0f4e04-61a8-41a0-bca3-b0df8e684e40-ds

Notice in that launch it mostly the local Councillors talking rather then Eamon. This launch is the greens attempt at gaslighting the rural electorate into voting for them.

Cookiemunster · 03-02-2020 9:27pm

Limerick74 wrote: »

More from the Green Party on the M20 https://www.echolive.ie/corknews/Green-Party-defends-stance-on-Cork-to-Limerick-motorway-2b0f4e04-61a8-41a0-bca3-b0df8e684e40-ds

Jaysus. So they all accept that all the towns need to be bypassed and the the current route needs to be upgraded but they still against the M20? I thinking even more that this is a Ryan solo run and none of them have the balls to stand up to him.

prunudo · 03-02-2020 9:44pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Jaysus. So they all accept that all the towns need to be bypassed and the the current route needs to be upgraded but they still against the M20? I thinking even more that this is a Ryan solo run and none of them have the balls to stand up to him.

I get the impression that Ryan thinks he is the only man in the country (or the world) that can save the planet from climate change. He seems he's putting hinself under a lot of pressure to get into government.

Reputable Rog · 03-02-2020 10:08pm

I think patience has worn fairly thin, FF/FG will be crucified next time out in the 4 affected constituencies if the road isn’t delivered.

Cork Trucker · 03-02-2020 10:11pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

I think patience has worn fairly thin, FF/FG will be crucified next time out in the 4 affected constituencies if the road isn’t delivered.

Once the Greens don't get in we stand a chance. they are trying to justify it in the echo today as per earlier article because Moran is from Mayo and Bogue is from Limerick. If anything those 2 should know how badly it is needed.

pajoguy · 03-02-2020 10:19pm

Re open the limerick to cork railway line...... Yeah because we have the massice population densities required for such a project.... Do these people just think soundbites like this wash with people..... we need to keep these green fingers off this project.

roddney · 03-02-2020 11:16pm

prunudo wrote: »

I get the impression that Ryan thinks he is the only man in the country (or the world) that can save the planet from climate change. He seems he's putting hinself under a lot of pressure to get into government.

In fairness it seems they are advocating building of m24 rather than the m20. This would link Waterford, Cork, Limerick and places in between, with the argument that this would be a more balanced Munster regional motorway.

marno21 · 03-02-2020 11:19pm

roddney wrote: »

In fairness it seems they are advocating building of m24 rather than the m20. This would link Waterford, Cork, Limerick and places in between, with the argument that this would be a more balanced Munster regional motorway.

But from a political rather than Roads point of view, how do you win votes in an infrastructurally starved constituency like Cork North Central by proclaiming you're going to scrap the already limited plans for roads in the area in favour of building a just as expensive motorway through the Ballyhoura Mountains in Limerick?

Cookiemunster · 03-02-2020 11:21pm

roddney wrote: »

In fairness it seems they are advocating building of m24 rather than the m20. This would link Waterford, Cork, Limerick and places in between, with the argument that this would be a more balanced Munster regional motorway.

Read through this thread (even a few pages back) and you'll see why an M24 won't solve the issues on the N20. The M20 is the only game in town.

SeanW · 03-02-2020 11:34pm

Aontachtoir wrote: »

If/when SF get in, cancelling the M20 will almost pay for returning the pension age to 65 for the next two years. A few forums on Irish unity mostly aimed at antagonising the DUP (a party in another country) can eat up the rest.

I don't understand why people on this board are so focused on the Greens while completely ignoring the damage SF (who are polling far, far higher) would do to infrastructure investment. Populists don't invest. If SF poll as highly as they have done today, and get into government, the M20 and most other road projects are probably toast.

The "Greens" have already helped cancel half of the Dublin Metro because it might upset some of their voter base in Ranelagh - this at a time when the Green Line is already maxed out with thousands of new apartments being built along the line. And now they oppose the M20 - easily one of the most important road projects in the country right now.

With that they've already proven they're unfit to govern. SF might be scary for other reasons, you could argue that they're unfit too. But we should be scared of the Greens the most based on what they've already said and done.

prunudo · 03-02-2020 11:49pm

roddney wrote: »

In fairness it seems they are advocating building of m24 rather than the m20. This would link Waterford, Cork, Limerick and places in between, with the argument that this would be a more balanced Munster regional motorway.

They must be the only green party in the world that advocate a longer and more time consuming journey by car as being more beneficial.
Its a shame there isn't a realistic green alternative.

marno21 · 03-02-2020 11:53pm

prunudo wrote: »

They must be the only green party in the world that advocate a longer and more time consuming journey by car as being mire beneficial.
Its a shame there isn't a realistic green alternative.

That's projected to carry a quarter the traffic of the lowest trafficked section of the N20 and a sixth the traffic of the busiest section of the N20.

riddlinrussell · 04-02-2020 11:43am

prunudo wrote: »

They must be the only green party in the world that advocate a longer and more time consuming journey by car as being more beneficial.
Its a shame there isn't a realistic green alternative.

Join the Greens and change them from within?

JamesBond2010 · 04-02-2020 2:06pm

riddlinrussell wrote: »

Join the Greens and change them from within?

U will turn to the dark side then

;) :cool: :cool: NOOOOOooo:D:D:D

mydiscworld · 05-02-2020 4:39pm

So when are we expecting the final route design?

Bass Reeves · 05-02-2020 4:56pm

mydiscworld wrote: »

So when are we expecting the final route design?

Before Christmas..................but God only knows which Christmas

Markcheese · 05-02-2020 4:58pm

It's probably the route that should have been done originally , a cork, Waterford and limerick and Waterford motorway all meeting in tipp .. then heading to meet up with Galway motorway on the way to Dublin , rather than individual Dublin motorways ... But that ship has long sailed ,

It probably still makes some sense ... To link the 3 cities by motorway ,
But they'll still have to upgrade the n20... And bypass the towns ...

serfboard · 05-02-2020 6:41pm

Markcheese wrote: »

But they'll still have to upgrade the n20... And bypass the towns ...

Which just shows the daftness of the Green's proposal if you dig into it - they're going to build the M24, and bypass the towns.

Would that be a half-arsed bypass, or a proper bypass?

And what are they going to do about the deadly-dangerous section around Knockbarry/Ballybeg (south of Buttevant)? Leave that as it is? Or bypass that too? If they are going to bypass it, then we'll have a Buttevant bypass followed by a Knockbarry bypass?

And what about the dangerous section around Bánóg?

The Green's proposal is a joke, and hasn't a hope of happening. The M24 may indeed get built, but only after the M20.

As I've said before, Blarney to Patrickswell is 80 KM, that's 50 minutes on the M20 by the form of Public Transport known as a bus, which the Greens, with their pure oul snobbery, don't want to hear anything about.

marno21 · 05-02-2020 6:49pm

serfboard wrote: »

Which just shows the daftness of the Green's proposal if you dig into it - they're going to build the M24, and bypass the towns.

Would that be a half-arsed bypass, or a proper bypass?

And what are they going to do about the deadly-dangerous section around Knockbarry/Ballybeg (south of Buttevant)? Leave that as it is? Or bypass that too? If they are going to bypass it, then we'll have a Buttevant bypass followed by a Knockbarry bypass?

And what about the dangerous section around Bánóg?

The Green's proposal is a joke, and hasn't a hope of happening. The M24 may indeed get built, but only after the M20.

As I've said before, Blarney to Patrickswell is 80 KM, that's 50 minutes on the M20 by the form of Public Transport known as a bus, which the Greens, with their pure oul snobbery, don't want to hear anything about.

It's ludicrous.

Instead of one proper solution they propose 2 half baked solutions, which will cost more and cause more hassle than the proper solution. With less benefits.

serfboard · 05-02-2020 7:02pm

marno21 wrote: »

Instead of one proper solution they propose 2 half baked solutions, which will cost more and cause more hassle than the proper solution. With less benefits.

There's a reason that they were kept away form the Transport portfolio in the last coalition that they were in - and I'd fully expect the same to happen again if the numbers dictate it.

pajoguy · 05-02-2020 10:23pm

It will be broadly similar to the route chosen in 2010.

alias no.9 · 05-02-2020 10:48pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

For the umpteenth time, it doesn't save money. It doesn't help the majority of people using the road, commuters into Cork and Limerick. It doesn't bypass the overchoked towns on the route. It doesn't replace the highly dangerous 19th century alignment along most of the route. It doesn't address the fact that Mallow to Blarney needs a dual carriage/motorway now. Any route other than following the N20 still leaves all these things needing to be done.

And who in their right mind would take the 3 hour journey via Portlaoise when even the awful current road takes half that time?

That indeed is my point, it will facilitate approximately the same percentage of the current N20 traffic as a new route via Cahir (we could round it off at 0%) but would cost even less. Did it really need a :rolleyes:

Cookiemunster · 05-02-2020 11:20pm

alias no.9 wrote: »

That indeed is my point, it will facilitate approximately the same percentage of the current N20 traffic as a new route via Cahir (we could round it off at 0%) but would cost even less. Did it really need a :rolleyes:

There aren't any emojis anywhere in my post?????

alias no.9 · 06-02-2020 12:04am

Cookiemunster wrote: »

There aren't any emojis anywhere in my post?????

We're clearly on very different wavelengths. You responded to a post I made which was never meant to be taken seriously. I thought that would have been very obvious but maybe I should have included a :rolleyes: to remove any doubt.

Limerick - Cahir - Cork is bat**** crazy, if nonsense cost savings are an argument for Limerick - Cahir - Cork, then Limerick - Portlaoise - Cork would trump it on the basis that it would save even more. Let me be clear, both are bat**** because they fail at their primary objective.

trellheim · 09-02-2020 6:46pm

Is this to be tolled when built ? Cant imagine it not being with probably a few toll points at Mallow , Croom and at either end

BelfastVanMan · 09-02-2020 10:09pm

trellheim wrote: »

Is this to be tolled when built ? Cant imagine it not being with probably a few toll points at Mallow , Croom and at either end

4 tolls in 65 miles?

I'll head via Ballylanders, thanks..

Shedite27 · 10-02-2020 10:53am

trellheim wrote: »

Is this to be tolled when built ? Cant imagine it not being with probably a few toll points at Mallow , Croom and at either end

There'll be one, at most.

hans aus dtschl · 10-02-2020 10:56am

Has there been any draft design of the tolling?

I'd expect one between Blarney P&R and Cork, southbound. Not sure if/where it'd be necessary Northbound.

Bass Reeves · 10-02-2020 11:09am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

Has there been any draft design of the tolling?

I'd expect one between Blarney P&R and Cork, southbound. Not sure if/where it'd be necessary Northbound.

If it is tolled it will be tolled between Mallow and Cork city maybe just before Blarney. There could be a case to toll it twice because of commuter traffic into both cities, in that case it would be rolled again around Croom

cjpm · 10-02-2020 12:32pm

I’m pretty sure it can’t be tolled for the sections that are an online upgrade. As where it’s on line the road is already in public use and has been paid for. That rules out a toll just before Blarney.

Cookiemunster · 10-02-2020 12:44pm

cjpm wrote: »

I’m pretty sure it can’t be tolled for the sections that are an online upgrade. As where it’s on line the road is already in public use and has been paid for. That rules out a toll just before Blarney.

If it's a motorway then there has to be an alternative route for non motorway traffic. I'm pretty sure the alternative route covers tolls too (open to correction though).

niloc1951 · 10-02-2020 1:06pm

Cookiemunster wrote: »

If it's a motorway then there has to be an alternative route for non motorway traffic. I'm pretty sure the alternative route covers tolls too (open to correction though).

There are no tolls on the M8/M7 alternative route (R639, N77)

Cookiemunster · 10-02-2020 1:15pm

niloc1951 wrote: »

There are no tolls on the M8/M7 alternative route (R639, N77)

You've taken me up completely wrong there. I didn't say there had to be tolls on the alternative route. I was saying that once there's an alternative route, there can be tolls on a motorway.

Isambard · 10-02-2020 6:00pm

the non-motorway route (ie the old N20) from Cork to Rathduff is not fit for modern traffic and is in no way a proper alternative.

hans aus dtschl · 10-02-2020 9:39pm

Isambard wrote: »

the non-motorway route (ie the old N20) from Cork to Rathduff is not fit for modern traffic and is in no way a proper alternative.

I don't think it really matters, as the plan is to do an M40 North and they'll probably toll as you access that.

Reputable Rog · 10-02-2020 9:50pm

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't think it really matters, as the plan is to do an M40 North and they'll probably toll as you access that.

There are no plans to do an M40 north.

hans aus dtschl · 10-02-2020 9:58pm

Reputable Rog wrote: »

There are no plans to do an M40 north.

It's in CMATS for delivery "before 2040" so there are plans.
But I think you mean as part of the current scheme, which I agree with.

What I'm saying is that the idea is to have both P&R at Blarney and M40 North completed and then toll between the two, rather than on the existing N20 Blarney to Blackpool section. Presumably severely restrict traffic in Blackpool by all sorts of other means also.

steeler j · 11-02-2020 12:06am

A pro m20 via cahir politician had gone in in Tipperary,I remember having an argument with him about during the local elections

Isambard · 11-02-2020 2:50am

hans aus dtschl wrote: »

I don't think it really matters, as the plan is to do an M40 North and they'll probably toll as you access that.

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

cjpm · 11-02-2020 8:15am

Isambard wrote: »

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

South of Burnfort Junction. That’s where online upgrade ends and the proposed new route runs to the east of the existing N20.

Isambard · 11-02-2020 10:22am

that's surely assuming the adoption of the previous planned route. If there is to be a toll (and this is the first I have heard of it) it would have to be, I agree, north of that point on what would be effectively a Mallow bypass.

hans aus dtschl · 11-02-2020 10:56am

Isambard wrote: »

I don't see any intention to do the M40 concurrently with the M20. As someone said, they can't put a toll on an existing already paid for road which would mean the toll could not be south of Rathduff

I understand what you're saying and it makes sense. In CMATS they mention multi-point tolling which may give a clue as to how they plan to address it.

What I'm talking about is slightly different: restricted access directly into Blackpool and tolls onto each arm of the M40 North (East and Westbound). Agreed this is probably outside the scope of the M20.

pajoguy · 11-02-2020 11:49am

New GreenTD in Limerick Brian Leddins second question after being elected was in relation to the M20.
He said there was a process ongoing and he would be in favour of what ever the outcome is. He mentioned rail but I dont believe the route selection will involve the trainsðŸ€£ðŸ€£ðŸ€£

Sam Russell · 11-02-2020 3:48pm

I think the M20 suggestion from Eamonn Ryan was part of his scatter gun approach to Green policy - not well thought out and not well informed, and lacking details.

serfboard · 11-02-2020 7:40pm

pajoguy wrote: »

New GreenTD in Limerick Brian Leddins second question after being elected was in relation to the M20.
He said there was a process ongoing and he would be in favour of what ever the outcome is. He mentioned rail but I dont believe the route selection will involve the trains

This is one I've been pondering and I'd be interested to hear people's opinions here on it.

What about if we said that, as they do in Germany, we'd build a rail line from Patrickswell to Charleville alongside the M20? It's a distance of less than 30KM, and would end the current ridiculous rail journey between Limerick and Cork that takes 100 minutes currently. It might get the Greens on board?

As part of it, you could build a new station in Patrickswell with a big Park n' Ride. I realise that the line from Patrickswell to the city would have to be re-laid, but that could come out of the rail infrastructure budget as a separate item. The rail line from Patrickswell into Limerick has a big advantage too in that it passes right beside the industrial estate of Raheen and a station there could encourage commuters to use it.

keane2097 · 11-02-2020 7:57pm

Well the positive thing about that interview with Brian Leddin is that he said something to the effect that 'if the experts come back and tell us the M20 is the best decision then that's the way we'll go'.

It's a shame we have to redo all the feasibility studies done previously but at the same time it has been what, 10/15 years in the meantime? I'd be happy enough to plough ahead myself but I can't see my way to losing my mind if someone thinks it's worth redoing the maths and the rest to see if it all still adds up 10+ years later.

AugustusMinimus · 11-02-2020 8:01pm

Great to hear some sensible snippets from the Green Party.

Limerick74 · 11-02-2020 8:28pm

serfboard wrote: »

This is one I've been pondering and I'd be interested to hear people's opinions here on it.

What about if we said that, as they do in Germany, we'd build a rail line from Patrickswell to Charleville alongside the M20? It's a distance of less than 30KM, and would end the current ridiculous rail journey between Limerick and Cork that takes 100 minutes currently. It might get the Greens on board?

As part of it, you could build a new station in Patrickswell with a big Park n' Ride. I realise that the line from Patrickswell to the city would have to be re-laid, but that could come out of the rail infrastructure budget as a separate item. The rail line from Patrickswell into Limerick has a big advantage too in that it passes right beside the industrial estate of Raheen and a station there could encourage commuters to use it.

I like your thinking with P&R. An issue with the existing Foynes to Limerick line is that it crosses two busy roads (Rosbrien & Childers) at grade. Childers Rd would be difficult to bridge but Rosbrien Rd is almost impossible with the N18 flying over it at the same location. Another option is to connect the new rail line from Charleville into the existing Limerick - Limerick Junction line near Ballysimon. This line is grade separated from all roads into Colbert. Still it will be very expensive whichever way it went.

M20 - Cork to Limerick [preferred route chosen; in design - phase 3]

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