Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

Crooked Jack · 23-06-2012 3:01pm

K-9 wrote: »

Who would these be?

Well there were a few at that partiualr event, cant remember them all but for my money the best speaker was Dr Conor Patterson. here's a bit about him.

http://www.nmea.net/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=28&Itemid=33

also of interest is this article. I think it's good because it takes an outsiders point of view and is therefor less emotive. It's from New Economic Perspectives, a group of professional economists, legal scholars, and financial market practitioners.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/sinn-fein-emerges-as-the-only-honest-and-economically-literate-irish-party.html

and just in case you think that's a hack job, here's a bit about the authors.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/p/about.html

K-9 wrote: »

Well I read their last budget submission and it seems to consist of something for everybody in the audience if your on welfare, low or medium wages, all mostly paid by those on over 100k.

WHAT?!?!!? The scurrilous bastards. Dont they know there are millionaires out there who cant afford to put fuel in their yachts.

Chucky the tree · 23-06-2012 5:00pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

also of interest is this article. I think it's good because it takes an outsiders point of view and is therefor less emotive. It's from New Economic Perspectives, a group of professional economists, legal scholars, and financial market practitioners.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/2012/05/sinn-fein-emerges-as-the-only-honest-and-economically-literate-irish-party.html

and just in case you think that's a hack job, here's a bit about the authors.

http://neweconomicperspectives.org/p/about.html

Or less informative since it's from an outsider.

Crooked Jack · 23-06-2012 5:06pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Or less informative since it's from an outsider.

More informative i felt because they're totally impartial and not just trying to defend the stance of one political party or another. It's purely about the economics.

Chucky the tree · 23-06-2012 5:13pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

More informative i felt because they're totally impartial and not just trying to defend the stance of one political party or another. It's purely about the economics.

Obviously you felt he was more informative. Considering the article mentions absolutely nothing in detail about SF's economic policies or why they are good then it's clearly not purely about the economics. The article is about having a rant at neo libralism and how terrible austerity is, pretty much complete fluff tbh.

southsiderosie · 23-06-2012 5:15pm

MOD NOTE:

Can folks dial back on the sniping, personal digs, and face-palming? Thanks.

Crooked Jack · 23-06-2012 5:27pm

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Obviously you felt he was more informative. Considering the article mentions absolutely nothing in detail about SF's economic policies or why they are good then it's clearly not purely about the economics. The article is about having a rant at neo libralism and how terrible austerity is, pretty much complete fluff tbh.

The article was an overview of the position of all the parties. It's hardly going to go into detail about each and every one of each party's economic policies as it would be a million pages long. If you want details on some of Sinn Fein's economic policies I suggest you try their website.
To be honest I just think you dont like the fact that the usually reliable "sinn fein's economic policies are rubbish" defence is slowly but surely being eroded.
You'll forgive me if I put more stock in the word of this guy -

"William K. Black, J.D., Ph.D. is Associate Professor of Law and Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. Bill Black has testified before the Senate Agricultural Committee on the regulation of financial derivatives and House Governance Committee on the regulation of executive compensation. He was interviewed by Bill Moyers on PBS, which went viral. He gave an invited lecture at UCLA’s Hammer Institute which, when the video was posted on the web, drew so many “hits” that it crashed the UCLA server. He appeared extensively in Michael Moore’s most recent documentary: “Capitalism: A Love Story.” He was featured in the Obama campaign release discussing Senator McCain’s role in the “Keating Five.” (Bill took the notes of that meeting that led to the Senate Ethics investigation of the Keating Five. His testimony was highly critical of all five Senators’ actions.) He is a frequent guest on local, national, and international television and radio and is quoted as an expert by the national and international print media nearly every week. He was the subject of featured interviews in Newsweek, Barron’s, and Village Voice."

- than some bitter boards ranter.

Chucky the tree · 23-06-2012 5:35pm

Crooked Jack wrote: »

The article was an overview of the position of all the parties. It's hardly going to go into detail about each and every one of each party's economic policies as it would be a million pages long. If you want details on some of Sinn Fein's economic policies I suggest you try their website.
To be honest I just think you dont like the fact that the usually reliable "sinn fein's economic policies are rubbish" defence is slowly but surely being eroded.
You'll forgive me if I put more stock in the word of this guy -

"William K. Black, J.D., Ph.D. is Associate Professor of Law and Economics at the University of Missouri-Kansas City. Bill Black has testified before the Senate Agricultural Committee on the regulation of financial derivatives and House Governance Committee on the regulation of executive compensation. He was interviewed by Bill Moyers on PBS, which went viral. He gave an invited lecture at UCLA’s Hammer Institute which, when the video was posted on the web, drew so many “hits” that it crashed the UCLA server. He appeared extensively in Michael Moore’s most recent documentary: “Capitalism: A Love Story.” He was featured in the Obama campaign release discussing Senator McCain’s role in the “Keating Five.” (Bill took the notes of that meeting that led to the Senate Ethics investigation of the Keating Five. His testimony was highly critical of all five Senators’ actions.) He is a frequent guest on local, national, and international television and radio and is quoted as an expert by the national and international print media nearly every week. He was the subject of featured interviews in Newsweek, Barron’s, and Village Voice."

- than some bitter boards ranter.

I have tried there website and read there policies plenty of times, I think they are a joke. I've no idea if this guy even read SF policies or any of the other parties policies. Maybe he simply going on the soundbites he picked up from radio and newspapers. I honestly don't care which economist likes or doesn't like SF's economic policies, I can read them myself and come to my own conclusions.

Also if the guy has appeared significantly in a Michael Moore movie then I'd seriously question how impartial or balanced that person is.

purplepanda · 24-06-2012 9:18pm

Nodin wrote: »

It's not a "proposal". Everyone in the North is entitled to an Irish passport.

So SF propose that only Irish passport holders in NI get a vote, why not extend the "franchise" to all citizens on the NI electoral register then?

After all all those potential voters actually do live in Ireland, & it would be wrong & undemocratic to deny them voting rights :pac:

junder · 03-07-2012 12:19am

It's seems Connor murphy has been found guilty of discrimantion after sll

Department of Regional Development discriminated against candidate

The Department of Regional Development has lost a religious discrimination case at an industrial tribunal.

It found evidence by Sinn Fein's Conor Murphy "implausible and lacking credibility".

The case was brought by Alan Lennon, a Protestant overlooked for the post of chairman of NI Water.

Deciding Mr Lennon was discriminated against, the tribunal believe Mr Murphy - minister at the time - also broke the code of practice for appointments.

In March 2011, Mr Murphy appointed a Catholic as chairman, Sean Hogan, ahead of four others shortlisted after interview, all of them Protestants.

According to the tribunal, Mr Hogan was selected because "he was not from a Protestant background and because he was known to the minister and his (then Sinn Fein) ministerial colleagues", Michelle Gildernew and Caitriona Ruane, who were consulted about the appointment.

The BBC has seen the 26-page decision issued to those involved.

It concluded: "The tribunal is in considerable doubt as to whether the merit principle was adhered to by the minister and whether Mr Hogan was the best candidate."

It also said Mr Murphy had added new criteria to the selection process "in order to secure Mr Hogan's appointment", something it viewed as a breach of the code and procedures for appointments.

The tribunal disputed Mr Murphy's claim he was unaware of the religion of the candidates.

'Material bias'
"In the reality of the political and religious environment in Northern Ireland, the tribunal finds the minister's evidence is implausible and lacks credibility."

The tribunal also said that during Mr Murphy's time as DRD minister - between 2007-2011, there was "a material bias against the appointment of candidates from a Protestant background".

The findings added: "The tribunal is concerned that Dr (Malcolm) McKibbin as permanent secretary with DRD and currently head of the NI Civil Service was not more aware of the situation."

The tribunal rejected Mr Lennon's claim there was also political discrimination, saying there was "a paucity of evidence".

Mr Lennon's case was assisted by the Equality Commission.

Its chief executive Evelyn Collins said: "We supported this case because it is our view that the standards of fairness and non-discrimination that we expect in employment situations should apply equally to all public appointments.

"A key part of this is the requirement for a sufficient degree of transparency and accountability in the process to assure people that selection is based on merit and that, if unlawful discrimination occurs, it can be challenged."

The DRD said in a short statement it would take time to consider the ruling.

In a statement Mr Murphy said: "I absolutely refute any allegation of discrimination against Alan Lennon on religious grounds.

"I stand over all of the appointments I made as the regional development minister and adhered to all the set criteria for such appointments.

"The department have six weeks to decide whether to appeal this ruling. Having read the ruling myself I would be urging the department to utilise the appeals process."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 12:33am

junder wrote: »

It's seems Connor murphy has been found guilty of discrimantion after sll

Department of Regional Development discriminated against candidate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303

Doubt there's much too it. If there was an unfair selection they would have said that they discriminated on the basis that they knew the candidate. Instead they rejected all discrimination.

poeticseraphim · 03-07-2012 2:42am

If the economy continues to expand as current figures (VERY NEW FIGURES I WILL ADMIT) sugggest and if the EU deal does change the game for Ireland...we see Bond yields continue to drop (they are under 5% huge drop) will this make it difficult for Sinn Féin to attack what the Govt has done as it is having benefits.

Unemployment figures have dropped slightly and if bond yields even stay stable for the summer we have turned a corner..(touch wood)..

And the debt terms appear to have changed..

I am going out on a limb here and am going to suggest that SF support may be in fact quite shallow and a knee jerk reaction to the crisis.

And as we come out of it a lot will support will fall away.

Ok cards on the table I consider myself a social democrat i favour health services for all and edutaion through direct taxation ...however i favour a free market economy..

Sinn Féin favour a state gas company a state IT company we are all going to work for the state...this strategy did not work for bertie

Their policy is rhetoric

If we go into recovery and we have lets say one or two tough budgets then an easier one and we begin to see an end to austerity, i think they will lose a lot of support.

I suppose i am centre left healthcare welfare education from taxation and i am prepared to pay realistic taxation needed for that (as in similar rates to some other EU countries) however i could never vote for Sinn Féin. Beyond moral reasons . They seem to think running an economy is like organising a balance sheet...so long as it all adds up they are doing it right..i think it is because of their experience in a highly subsidised economy in the north. You have to turn profits ..growth and an ecomomy needs teeth and competivess to do that and mobility. Recession is part of a healthy economy.

Another thing the economy is already too full of ideology from both the right and left....it needs objectivity. There are sometimes when higher taxes might pay off there are sometimes when they may not.

One huge mistake is the idea that you can use stimulus to grow a real economy or parts of it..you can't ..you can fake it..thats what happened with the property sector ..subsidies overfuelled it along with lax banking regulation fuelled by the govts desire for tax revenue ..to put back into subsidising the property sector....Sinn Féin wants to do the same thing....yu can invest in infrastructure but it's supply and demand ..you cant supply the demand or fake demand...especially in a high tax economy (which i support) but you have to allow industries to contract as there is not a market ...

As for green energy...at the moment that is something you pour money into..it's not something you get money out of..it will be some time i suspect before this changes...there is a lot of protectionism regarding non green energy sources and stopping this would perhaps harm the economy..it is difficult to make it proffitable beyond a small industry

Not to mention with a SF govt i actually think it would harm our reputation abroad politically and investment wise...

They are not social democrats ..they are socialists

The pension reserve fund is almost empty..to be honest the only other funding now is private pensions which has been listed by Adams as a possible source of funds...and this WOULD KILL OUR REPUTATAION WITH IVESTORS ABROAD..it sends the message that the Govt does not respect private property rights and no one would feel their investments were safe and it would mean borrowing would again become dearer for us and we would end up paying more interest...

as i social emocrat i believe in the right to private property ..funding through taxation fine..

Do people think Sinn Féin will lose a lot of support in the recovery?

Sad to think that they have something invested in Irelands crisis..but then all opositions do..but it says a lot about their rhetoric...plus the fact that it is clear from their rhetoric and policies that they don't believe they will get into power either...

I think SF peaked too soon...who knows

Happyman42 · 03-07-2012 10:03am

poeticseraphim wrote: »

I think SF peaked too soon...who knows

I admire your optimism, but what is plainly evident through all of this crisis is that our systems of governance have to change and change fundamentally.
The new and growing by the minute scandal emerging in Barclays has already sparked off a tribunal and will further highlight how greed has overpowered even the most earnest intent of those that govern us.
I don't think pure socialism is the answer but we certainly need to ensure that fairness and equality are enshrined in our government. SF are a credible socialist party and have worked hard at community level to get where they are. I can only see that continuing. They will continue to attract those who want a fairer system.

laoch na mona · 03-07-2012 2:50pm

purplepanda wrote: »

So SF propose that only Irish passport holders in NI get a vote, why not extend the "franchise" to all citizens on the NI electoral register then?

After all all those potential voters actually do live in Ireland, & it would be wrong & undemocratic to deny them voting rights :pac:

unless they identify themselves as irish (i.e have a passport) why should they get a say in who runs the country

Laminations · 03-07-2012 2:52pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

unless they identify themselves as irish (i.e have a passport) why should they get a say in who runs the country

So all Irish passport holders, anywhere in the world should have a vote? or just the ones in NI?

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 2:54pm

laoch na mona wrote: »

unless they identify themselves as irish (i.e have a passport) why should they get a say in who runs the country

I think that anyone who lives in Ireland (the island of Ireland) has a vested interest in the running of the country. Equally decisions made in Stormount will affect people over the border especially in terms of transport, tourism and fisheries.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 3:21pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I think that anyone who lives in Ireland (the island of Ireland) has a vested interest in the running of the country. Equally decisions made in Stormount will affect people over the border especially in terms of transport, tourism and fisheries.

You are confusing 'island' and 'country'. Seeing as we share this island with Britain, should we be allowed vote for British parliament as we have a vested interest in what happens on this island??

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 3:23pm

Laminations wrote: »

You are confusing 'island' and 'country'. Seeing as we share this island with Britain, should we be allowed vote for British parliament as we have a vested interest in what happens on this island??

What happens in the British parliament has little relevance to anyone in the republic. One thing that does interest me from Westminster is that they control our corporation tax rate so I would like to see that devolved.

junder · 03-07-2012 3:27pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

junder wrote: »

It's seems Connor murphy has been found guilty of discrimantion after sll

Department of Regional Development discriminated against candidate

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-18526303

Doubt there's much too it. If there was an unfair selection they would have said that they discriminated on the basis that they knew the candidate. Instead they rejected all discrimination.

An entire department found guilty of discrimantion, the sinn fein Minister has been accused of effectively lieing to cover up this discrimination, but you doubt there is much to it

junder · 03-07-2012 3:29pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Laminations wrote: »

You are confusing 'island' and 'country'. Seeing as we share this island with Britain, should we be allowed vote for British parliament as we have a vested interest in what happens on this island??

What happens in the British parliament has little relevance to anyone in the republic. One thing that does interest me from Westminster is that they control our corporation tax rate so I would like to see that devolved.

What happens in the dail has little relevance to me

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 3:40pm

junder wrote: »

What happens in the dail has little relevance to me

That will be the case for a lot of people, especially if you live and work in the north-east. Feel free to not vote.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 3:56pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

That will be the case for a lot of people, especially if you live and work in the north-east. Feel free to not vote.

How does what happens in the Dail interest the North? We don't control the budget for the north or implement policy in the north apart from cross border agreements.

If you live in the north and are Irish then you are Irish living outside of Ireland (the state governed by the Dail), with as much connection to the Dail as an Irish person living in London. Your politicians sit in Stormont. Why should you get a vote and not all Irish people outside of Ireland?

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 4:08pm

Laminations wrote: »

How does what happens in the Dail interest the North? We don't control the budget for the north or implement policy in the north apart from cross border agreements.

If you live in the north and are Irish then you are Irish living outside of Ireland (the state governed by the Dail), with as much connection to the Dail as an Irish person living in London. Your politicians sit in Stormont. Why should you get a vote and not all Irish people outside of Ireland?

I worked in the republic until a year ago but couldn't vote because I lived the other side of the border. I can't vote for a party who will be in government in the UK so it makes no difference to me what they do.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 4:25pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

I worked in the republic until a year ago but couldn't vote because I lived the other side of the border. I can't vote for a party who will be in government in the UK so it makes no difference to me what they do.

Plenty of people work in Ireland (and live here) without being entitled to vote here. I'd imagine the CEO of Pfizer does more business here (and pays in more tax) then you are ever likely to but they don't get a vote.

Describe the criteria you want for people to get a vote. Lets see what criteria you can come up with to try and make it just for NI Irish.

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 4:35pm

Laminations wrote: »

Plenty of people work in Ireland (and live here) without being entitled to vote here. I'd imagine the CEO of Pfizer does more business here (and pays in more tax) then you are ever likely to but they don't get a vote.

Describe the criteria you want for people to get a vote. Lets see what criteria you can come up with to try and make it just for NI Irish.

Anyone living permanently in the island of Ireland would have the right to vote for both the president and in Dáil elections.

Out of interest, does Mary McAleese have the right to vote?

Laminations · 03-07-2012 5:50pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Anyone living permanently in the island of Ireland would have the right to vote for both the president and in Dáil elections.

Out of interest, does Mary McAleese have the right to vote?

But the island of Ireland is two separate countries. What rationale do you have extended voting rights over a political border and then stopping at a geographical border (the coast) rather than the whole of Britain? Or does it just suit you only to include NI. What makes Irish living in Northern Ireland different (or more entitled to a vote here) than Irish living in England or Wales or America?

fasttalkerchat · 03-07-2012 5:54pm

Laminations wrote: »

What makes Irish living in Northern Ireland different (or more entitled to a vote here) than Irish living in England or Wales or America?

Fisheries, transport and tourism decisions made here affect both jurisdictions here but can be made by people in just on jurisdictions. The effect of a road upgrade through county Tyrone is important for the people of Donegal but not for people in Liverpool or California.

Laminations · 03-07-2012 6:05pm

fasttalkerchat wrote: »

Fisheries, transport and tourism decisions made here affect both jurisdictions here but can be made by people in just on jurisdictions. The effect of a road upgrade through county Tyrone is important for the people of Donegal but not for people in Liverpool or California.

Tenuous. Our foreign affairs policy affects lots of people and our corporation tax too and our fisheries policy....

There is a case for allowing anyone with an Irish passport a vote but restricting it to NI (just to boost SF support) which is a reason another poster gave is self serving and hasn't been well argued

RandomName2 · 03-07-2012 6:56pm

It only needs to be said again because people refuse to listen:

You can only vote in the jurisdiction in which you live.

Why?

Because you vote for representatives to represent your jurisdiction.

We don't vote for any representatives that are returned to Stormont because Stormont has no jurisdiction here. Nobody in Northern Ireland votes for any representative returned to the Dail, Seanad, or Aras because none of these bodies have any jurisdiction in Northern Ireland.

southsiderosie · 03-07-2012 7:08pm

MOD NOTE:

While I think the passport issue would make for an interesting thread on its own (and if you'd like, I can pull those posts out to start a new one), but in the meantime this thread is supposed to be about whether or not SF could be in government. So let's take a step back from the usual trench warfare and get back on topic, thanks.

Sinn Féin-A responsible thread for adults.

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