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Over 1,200 licensed guns stolen in five years

124

Comments

  • #152
    Satan Polaroid
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Satan Polaroid


    Rew wrote: »
    All those are in the current legislation, like I said we have extreamly tight laws but the people that matter don't seem to know that!

    My understanding was that there was too much left to interpretation, and thus implementation varies from district to district.

    Is this not the case?


  • #153
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Satan Polaroid wrote: »
    My understanding was that there was too much left to interpretation, and thus implementation varies from district to district.

    Is this not the case?

    Not at all, its all in black and white there arn't too many gray areas. The main problem that the law has been updated a number of times in the last few years and relevent people haven't updated that understanding or policies.

    Only parts of the new law have been enacted so far by the minister leaving some gaps, but every power that the Supers could wish for is in there for them to use right now. The commissioner has been quoted as saying he has no powers in the area but thats not true he has direct power over handgun licencing for example because they are a restricted firearm (restrictyed firearms are designated by the minister as he sees fit). He (commissioner) is well within his rights to issue guidelines to all supers on firearms licencing and they have it in their power to grant licences (for non-restricted firearms) with any and all conditions that they see fit (including access to medical records). If those arn't met or if after the licence is granted they are failed to be maintained (ie you leave your gun club) he can revoke the licence and therefore the firearm. The relevent legislation is well worth a read. Sparks on the shooting forum is very well read about it and can answer questions very easily.

    Whats happeing ATM is the gardai are operating on adhoc system for licencing. There are no guidelines laid down or standardisation so one applicatrion to the next district to district its radically differant. I was granted every one of my licences withing 2 weeks other people have waited 12 months+. One super will refuse all pistols another will grant them. Some supers will require safes others wont etc. Even down to stations and even different Gardai within satations you will get different practices. All because there is no master policy coming down the line. The shooters have been seeking a stable, standard system for years. Some supers have openly said they will only grant a pistol licence if there taken to court and the tax payer forks out for the bill.

    A Firearms Consultative Panal exists which is made up of all interest parties (hunters, target shooters, DoJ and Gardai). They have hammered out alot of this in the past but Ahern seems to be bypassing them on all this to a certain degree.

    Ill piece together some highlights from the legislation tomorrow, Too late now :D


  • #154
    budda15c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    metman wrote: »
    What many of our 'new contributors' to the ES forum seem to be forgetting, is that many of the posters here on ES are the ones cleaning up the mess when someone gets shot. Its all well and good shooting little holes in your little paper targets, but some of us see the reality of shootings and the carnage involved. Some of us have also had firearms pointed at us and even fired at us in the course of our work, so yes you're damn right its an emotive issue.

    I can't speak for everyone here, but I have the greatest respect for all members of the ES and its a dangerous and much of the time thankless job. But metman, don't be so patronising, to people who have listened to your points and are attempting to debate an issue.


  • #155
    budda15c
    Closed Accounts Posts: 329 ✭✭budda15c


    metman wrote: »
    In response to the question, what would you take into the afterlife? Heckler replies:



    I have no further questions your honour :rolleyes:

    Fairplay, Hopefully your CID, otherwise your talents are really being wasted. You have managed to take a joke, from a ridiculous thread and take it completely out of context:rolleyes:


  • #156
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Some general info taken from the shooting forum:

    Licenced firearms figures:
    TYPE|2007/08|2006/07|2005/06|2004/05|2003/04
    Shotgun|177,455|174,832|171,916|173,556|170,236
    Rifle|56,689|50,986|48,536|47,596|44,967
    Crossbow|79|76|72|76|73
    Pistol|1,551|1,125|751|289|1
    Revolver|284|214|131|58|0
    Other|62|54|43|34|27
    Total|233,120|227,287|221,449|221,609|215,304


    Firearms Acts 1925-2006:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=51833658&postcount=1

    Fachtna Murphy in front of the public accounts committee:
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=57951977&postcount=190
    Fachtna Murphy wrote:
    The issue about which the Deputy speaks is the licensing authority, which is essentially the local superintendent. The person who has absolute charge of licensing is the local superintendent, subject, of course, to the courts. The court decided that the Garda Commissioner of the day could not issue guidelines or directions to superintendents, and that every superintendent had to deal with each case on its own merits.

    But since the 1st of Aug 2006:
    Section 3A

    Issue of guidelines etc. by Commissioner.

    3A.—(1) The Commissioner may, with the consent of the Minister, from time to time issue guidelines in relation to the practical application and operation of any provision of the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006.

    (2) In particular, the Commissioner may issue such guidelines in relation to applications for firearm certificates and authorisations under this Act and to the conditions which may be attached to those certificates and authorisations.

    Note pistols are restricted firearms and:
    Section 3
    (2) Application for a restricted firearm certificate shall be made to the Commissioner.

    Here are the requirements to get a licence:
    Section 4
    Conditions of grant of firearm certificate.


    4.—(1) An issuing person shall not grant a firearm certificate unless he or she is satisfied that the applicant complies with the conditions referred to in subsection (2) and will continue to comply with them during the currency of the certificate.

    (2) The conditions subject to which a firearm certificate may be granted are that, in the opinion of the issuing person, the applicant—


    (a) has a good reason for requiring the firearm in respect of which the certificate is applied for,

    (b) can be permitted to possess, use and carry the firearm and ammunition without danger to the public safety or security or the peace,

    (c) is not a person declared by this Act to be disentitled to hold a firearm certificate,

    (d) has provided secure accommodation for the firearm and ammunition at the place where it is to be kept,

    (e) where the firearm is a rifle or pistol to be used for target shooting, is a member of an authorised rifle or pistol club,

    (f) has complied with subsection (3),

    (g) complies with such other conditions (if any) specified in the firearm certificate, including any such conditions to be complied with before a specified date as the issuing person considers necessary in the interests of public safety or security, and

    (h) in case the application is for a restricted firearm certificate—

    (i) has a good and sufficient reason for requiring such a firearm, and
    (ii) has demonstrated that the firearm is the only type of weapon that is appropriate for the purpose for which it is required.


    (3) An applicant for a firearm certificate shall supply to the issuing person the information requested in the application form and such further information as the issuing person may require in the performance of the person’s functions under this Act, including, in particular—

    (a) proof of identity,
    (b) proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,
    (c) written consent for any enquiries in relation to the applicant’s medical history that may be made from a health professional by or on behalf of the issuing person, and
    (d) names and addresses of two referees who may be contacted to attest to the applicant’s character.


    (4) A member of the Garda Sıochana may inspect the accommodation for a firearm provided by an applicant for a firearm certificate or require the applicant to provide proof of its existence.

    (5) The Minister, in consultation with the Commissioner, may by regulations provide for minimum standards to be complied with by holders of firearm certificates in relation to the provision of secure accommodation for their firearms.

    (6) In this section “health professional” means doctor or psychiatrist registered under any enactments governing the profession concerned or a clinical psychologist.

    And you cannt apply at all if:
    Section 8
    Persons disentitled to hold a firearm certificate or a permit.

    8.—(1) The following persons are hereby declared to beThe disentitled to hold a
    firearm certificate, that is to say:—


    ( a ) any person under the age of sixteen years, and

    ( b ) any person of intemperate habits, and

    ( c ) any person of unsound mind, and

    (d) any person who has been sentenced to imprisonment for—

    (i) an offence under the Firearms Acts 1925 to 2006, the Offences Against the State Acts 1939 to 1998 or the Criminal Justice (Terrorist Offences) Act 2005, or
    (ii) an offence under the law of another state involving the production or use of a firearm, and the sentence has not expired or it expired within the previous 5 years,


    (e) any person who is bound by a recognisance to keep the peace or be of good behaviour, a condition of which is that the person shall not possess, use or carry any firearm or ammunition, and

    (f) any person not ordinarily resident in the State (except a person who is temporarily so resident) for a period of 6 months before applying for a firearm certificate.


    (2) Any person who is by virtue of this section disentitled to hold a
    firearm certificate shall also be disentitled to hold a permit under this Act
    in relation to any firearm or ammunition.


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  • #157
    civdef
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,057 ✭✭✭civdef


    I'm going to chime in here too to back up TheNog (though I'm trying not to get too involved in the thread here personally because I have strong opinions on the subject).

    Robust debate on issues relating to Emergency Services is the very purpose of this forum, but where it descends into incivility and back seat modding, infractions will and have been handed out.


  • #158
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    Also the UK banned handguns and their gun crime is up 700%.
    Yes you but you cannot attribute the rise in gun crime to the ban. Gun crime is on the rise here in Ireland too.


  • #159
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    Yes you but you cannot attribute the rise in gun crime to the ban. Gun crime is on the rise here in Ireland too.

    Im not saying that handguns keep crime down what im saying is a ban doesnt prevent a the massive rise in gun crime.


  • #160
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    can anyone put forward the commisioners view on this. explain it.


  • #161
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    so who is it that checks gun owners? checks they have safe etc?


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  • #162
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    whats been lost here and pro-gun people like to ignore is the difference between a firearm and a golf club, hammer or whatever other item they decide to use. The difference is a Glock (as an example) has only 1 purpose. It was designed, manufactired and is priimarily purchased to shoot living things dead. Thats a simple fact concerning firearms. hammers are for diy in my hands, a car is for transport. A firearm used to kill someone is not being misused, its being used for its intended purpose. legal or not.

    Now, people have asked for some evidence. Obviously as I said, I will not use PULSE for such purposes nor will I post any information obtained from it on a message board so instead I will point you in the direction of good auld Mr Williams who can freely state the facts withouit fear or being sacked.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crime-Wars-Paul-Williams/dp/1903582830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229411583&sr=8-1

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gangland-True-Crime-Dublin-Ireland/dp/0862785766/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229411583&sr=8-2

    Both books detail numerous murders commited by legally held firearms that had been stolen either for use in a specific crime or simple for future use. Actually, every chaper in Crimelords mentions a case involving a stolen firearm including one case where the entire gun safe and its contents were taken from a house.

    In fact its now being suggested that the gun used in east Wall may have been stolen from the victim within a few days of being used.

    Also, the ban will come in. Less than 5% of this country legally hold a firearm and I would suggest that the anti-ban side would not even double that figure leaving about 90% welcoming a ban.


  • #163
    Vegeta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    whats been lost here and pro-gun people like to ignore is the difference between a firearm and a golf club, hammer or whatever other item they decide to use. The difference is a Glock (as an example) has only 1 purpose. It was designed, manufactired and is priimarily purchased to shoot living things dead. Thats a simple fact concerning firearms. hammers are for diy in my hands, a car is for transport. A firearm used to kill someone is not being misused, its being used for its intended purpose. legal or not.

    Firstly karlito I mean no offence by this so take it at face value, there are no digs here.

    You are not a firearms expert, neither am I, but I know a lot more about them than you. So I can safely say that the above paragraph is not accurate.

    You better tell every target shooter in the country that they're using their firearms wrong and they should be killing living things with them rather than shooting paper.

    You better tell the manufacturers that they're designing, making and selling the wrong kind of firearms too. They should be designing them for killing things rather than punching the tightest groups possible in paper.

    Just how many target shooting disciplines in Ireland are you familiar with, how much of the hardware do you have first hand knowledge of?

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=58249628&postcount=498

    Tell me how the air pistol being used by the lady in the link above was designed to kill things?

    Your lack of knowledge on this subject is very evident in the above paragraph. There are thousands of firearms in this country which are actually quite bad at killing things due to accuracy being their key design feature. They are simply not designed to kill anything.

    Yes there are quite a few firearms designed to kill (especially hunting types) but to say that all firearms have a sole purpose to kill, is quite bluntly, wrong.
    Now, people have asked for some evidence. Obviously as I said, I will not use PULSE for such purposes nor will I post any information obtained from it on a message board so instead I will point you in the direction of good auld Mr Williams who can freely state the facts withouit fear or being sacked.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Crime-Wars-Paul-Williams/dp/1903582830/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229411583&sr=8-1

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Gangland-True-Crime-Dublin-Ireland/dp/0862785766/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1229411583&sr=8-2

    Both books detail numerous murders commited by legally held firearms that had been stolen either for use in a specific crime or simple for future use. Actually, every chaper in Crimelords mentions a case involving a stolen firearm including one case where the entire gun safe and its contents were taken from a house.

    I have to say I admire Mr. Williams, especially when the Minister was asked for this information (on behalf of shooting organisations) twice in Dail questions in the last 2 years, he said the Gardai did not have the figures.
    In fact its now being suggested that the gun used in east Wall may have been stolen from the victim within a few days of being used.

    Did Aidan O'Kane have a licensed handgun?
    Also, the ban will come in. Less than 5% of this country legally hold a firearm and I would suggest that the anti-ban side would not even double that figure leaving about 90% welcoming a ban.

    I think you'd be surprised by the public, there were two threads discussing this is politics and legal issues and both of them heavily criticised the Minister for trying to be "tough on crime" but his actions having no effect, they can see right through this. Also in a radio interview one of the people from East Wall said the same thing. How will banning licensed handguns effect Johnny Scumbag when he can buy one for 200 quid from one of his buddies?

    Do you honestly think this ban will have an effect on crime and the number of firearms you will face while on duty?

    I do not think this ban will make being a member of AGS any safer.

    Consider the ban in England, has this stopped gun crime rising? No

    Look at the figures, 2002, 2003, 2004 there were 28 handguns reported stolen. There was only 1 licensed handgun to a civilian in 2004. Where did the others come from? 1200 firearms stolen in 4-5 years, single illegal shipments contain up to 180

    Northern Ireland has over 10,000 licensed handguns. That's 5 times the amount here yet they have half the population. Criminals are 10 times more likely to find one there to steal.

    Also the ban is on new licenses, there will still be 1800 handguns (about 1200 actual pistols/revolvers) if the applicants meet the criteria.

    You think the anti-ban folk want loose laws, that's the last thing we want. We want to see the Minister actually do something useful compared to this smoke and mirrors bullsh1t he is currently pulling. This will have no effect bar kill the future of a sport.

    How about enforcing all the legislation that Rew has posted up, that'd be an excellent start.


  • #164
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    you want people to buy a book from a self grandising hack rather then get their information from the minister and gardai?

    "legally held firearms" so what? he's not banning legallly held firearms, only legally held handguns. legally firemans (shotugns etc) will continue to be issued.


  • #165
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Vegeta wrote: »
    Look at the figures, 2002, 2003, 2004 there were 28 handguns reported stolen. There was only 1 licensed handgun to a civilian in 2004. Where did the others come from? 1200 firearms stolen in 4-5 years, single illegal shipments contain up to 1800

    I find that hard to believe unless you are referring to shipments brought in by PIRA during the 80's.


  • #166
    Vegeta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    eroo wrote: »
    I find that hard to believe unless you are referring to shipments brought in by PIRA during the 80's.

    :o

    Apologies, you're right, its a typo, the figure I meant to quote is 180.

    Article here


  • #167
    hk
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭hk


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    "legally held firearms" so what? he's not banning legallly held firearms, only legally held handguns. legally firemans (shotugns etc) win continue to be issued.

    The following is taken from the statement issued by the dept, his review of the leglislation will not only cater for a handgun ban, it is clear that rifles and shotguns could be banned also in the not to distant future depending on a series of annual reviews.

    "the Minister will keep under annual review, in consultation with the Garda Commissioner, the outcome of the licensing procedure and, if the outcome of that procedure leaves a situation which still poses an unacceptable risk to the community, will use new powers, which the Bill will contain, to ban outright any type of firearm"

    considering the figure of 1200 guns being stolen in the past few years, apparently includes only 27 firearms classed as a hand gun (class covers more than semi auto centerfire or even rim fire pistols) the majority of gun stolen were rifles or shotguns, if those kinds of figures continue over the next few years an outright ban on any type of firearm may be more forthcoming than expected.

    I hold three FAC btw, one for a handgun, you could guess the type. I have plenty of family involved in the fight against the gangland culture, some of whom carry a firearm off duty as a concequence, I also carry a firearm at work and I am involved in combating this area also. I am most annoyed for two reasons, a) I really do not like having my holding a FAC for a particular type of firearm mentioned every time a criminal uses one. b) I am sick of where our country has gone and im sick of the rapid decent of our society into a drugs and crime culture, the government of this country should focus on real solutions to the problem rather than tackeling this issue by bringing in pointless leglislation which will provide no protection to the people of the state or to the people who have undertaken to maintain its security for those people. Sports shooting presents no threat to the security of the state, criminality does and nothing is being put forward to stamp this out.


  • #168
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Vegeta wrote: »
    :o

    Apologies, you're right, its a typo, the figure I meant to quote is 180.

    Article here

    That was a rare enough seizure. Gardai believe most illegal weapons come in as part of drug shipments, not through big weapons shipments, with only maybe 1 or 2 guns with each shipment.


  • #169
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    I apologise, clearly firearms arent being manufactured for the millions of military and police that use them. Its obvious they are being manufactured for shooting at paper thus needing large 5.56 ammunition or is the us military simple altering every weapon they buy? Please also dont assume just because I dont own a gun doesnt mean I have no knowledge or dealing with them, Im simple not trying to muddy the water with pellet guns or air rifle.

    Also, Williams isnt a hack, hes a respected reporter that the majority of Gardai will tell you knows what hes talking about. He also doesnt state stats about legal V illegal use. He speaks about individual cases where the origins of the weapon are known. In many cases the origin of the weapon is unknown. And while were on this sibject, can anyone back up the claim thats being repated here multiple times? Can anyone show evidence that the majority of illegal guns in Ireland were smuggled in?

    Do I think removing legally held firearms will make it safer as a Garda? yes I do. I think it will reduce the amount I could find in a criminals hands by 1200 while greatly reducing the chances of me responding to a Dunblane, Abbylara,London or the multitide of other incidents where legal weapons were used against police.

    Also, Im not even suggesting that a ban will be the greatest move ever in combating crime but you cant ignore the fact that everyday in this world a legally held firearm is used against police, in murders and in many violent situations. People need to also realise that showing violent crime on the rise is a smoke screen. Simple reality is that a lot of non violent crime is on the up as well such as bank fraud.


  • #170
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    That was a rare enough seizure. Gardai believe most illegal weapons come in as part of drug shipments, not through big weapons shipments, with only maybe 1 or 2 guns with each shipment.

    There was 27 on that shipment along with 20kg of heroin and cannabis:


  • #171
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    I apologise, clearly firearms arent being manufactured for the millions of military and police that use them. Its obvious they are being manufactured for shooting at paper thus needing large 5.56 ammunition or is the us military simple altering every weapon they buy?

    5.56 is small in the grand scheme of things. You can't legally shoot a dear with the civilian version of 5.56 (.223) in this country as it would be considered to small to bring it down clean. It also has issues for police use like numerous failures to penetrate glass/widscreens.

    Firearms vary massivly alot of models and makes would be very unsuitable for military or police use. There is more of a cross over between the guns used by police and the average target shooters whats expected of them is similar in terms of use and abuse and accuracy. Once you get in to compeditive shooting at any kind of serious level the guns are either custom made from scratch or a stock gun has a **** load of work done to it by a pro gun smith.

    You wouldnt take a Hummer H2 to Iraq :D


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  • #172
    ScubaDave
    Registered Users Posts: 404 ✭✭ScubaDave


    Id say there are many soldiers that wouldnt take a standard hummer to iraq if they had the choice!


  • #173
    dresden8
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,290 ✭✭✭dresden8


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    Well this is going faster than I can keep up but having read the latest posts allow me to clear something up, Garda stations are not the subject of attacks. It probable has something to do with all the police wandering around the places.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2008/0122/breaking20.htm

    http://www.tribune.ie/news/article/2008/oct/26/garda-station-burglaries-targeting-sensitive-data/

    Hmm.....................


  • #174
    Vegeta
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 11,393 ✭✭✭✭Vegeta


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    I apologise, clearly firearms arent being manufactured for the millions of military and police that use them. Its obvious they are being manufactured for shooting at paper thus needing large 5.56 ammunition or is the us military simple altering every weapon they buy? Please also dont assume just because I dont own a gun doesnt mean I have no knowledge or dealing with them, .

    Look Karlito I don't want to come across as insulting but you do not know a great deal about firearms. I am not assuming, your posts on the topic make this clear. I have huge respect for your profession so please don't take this stuff personally.

    A) 5.56 is not a big centre fire rifle round. It is considered small-to-medium. For example my brother has had a .270 and currently has a .300 winchester magnum
    B)5.56 is a NATO round, it is not used by civilians here.
    C) The closet thing is the .223 remington, it is plain stupid to put 5.56mm ammunition in a .223 rifle. See here

    Is your arguement that just because the army use guns that all guns the world over have to be designed the same? Surely you can see the false logic in this.
    Im simple not trying to muddy the water with pellet guns or air rifle

    Air rifles are classed as firearms here, so where is the mud
    Air rifles can be dangerous just like any garden tool can be lethal if misused.

    Look I have no problem with you taking the stance you are, its your opinion and you are perfectly entitled to it.

    But when you say that all guns are designed to kill, well I cant sit by and see that kind of incorrect 'fact' being thrown about the place.


  • #175
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    ScubaDave wrote: »
    Id say there are many soldiers that wouldnt take a standard hummer to iraq if they had the choice!

    Very true and some that wouldn't take 5.56mm or 9mm given the choice. This could spark a whole new thread from Manic Moran ;)


  • #176
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    I thought Karlitoway meant 5.56 was big for just shooting a piece of paper...


  • #177
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    Rew wrote: »
    Very true and some that wouldn't take 5.56mm or 9mm given the choice. This could spark a whole new thread from Manic Moran ;)

    I kindof had both extremes. I had one of those hillbillly-armoured Hummers and an Abrams tank, some days I'd ride one, some the other. Face it, you can't make social calls in a tank. Well, you could, but probably only in situations requiring a specific social statement. I've no problem with the 5.56mm, though I'd have preferred a different rifle, and I rather like the 9mm for the capacity, but I needed to buy better magazines.

    However, I think you're both arguing past each other. It is true that 99% of Glocks were designed with the killing people bit in mind. They're pretty good at it (I don't like them, myself, I'm in the SIG camp, but that's beside the point). However, it is also not true to say that there are no international sports which involve the shooting of said Glocks against targets, be they steel plates, bowling pins, or whatever else happens to be used. For example, the Euro-2009 ISPC championship is being held in the Czech Republic. (In recent years, the European ISPC handgun competitions were held in France, Greece, Germany, Sweden and Switzerland. The next World championship will be in Bali, Indonesia. Even the UK hosted the world championship in 1993. It's a true dual-use item, used in a popular, world-wide sport. You cannot say that someone cannot have a legitimate sporting purpose to own a Glock.

    NTM


  • #178
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    yes a 'legitamte sport' *wink* *wink*

    can't wait for some rpg manufacture to start up an rpg target shooting competition, it will do wonders for its reputation.


  • #179
    Traumadoc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,523 ✭✭✭Traumadoc


    never pulled my chain, but it is a sport that is taken very seriously,by a lot of shooters


  • #180
    Manic Moran
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 16,462 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manic Moran


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    can't wait for some rpg manufacture to start up an rpg target shooting competition, it will do wonders for its reputation.

    Be a bit pricey, I think, no? I mean, just imagine the cost in range improvements required to conduct such a sport safely. And that's not counting the ammo.

    Then again, I'm saying this from a country where privately owned artillery and tanks are legal. Oddly enough, they've never had a incident that I'm aware of, probably because we've got lots of room for overshoot.

    [ETA: Besides, we're not talking about inventing a new sport which has no traction around the world. We're talking about participating in a sport which most of what we would consider the first world seem to have no difficulty with and already exists.]

    NTM


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  • #181
    ART6
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,632 ✭✭✭ART6


    metman wrote: »
    I used the term, as it encompasses a number of weapons that are privately owned, not just Glocks. As I said, I don't personally have a problem with private ownership of weapons, provided checks and balances are in place. Despite this there's no arguiing with the figures; 1,200 licensed weapons have been stolen. .

    I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but a casual visit to the shooting forum recently suggested that 1,200 weapons is about the total licenced guns in civilian hands (as far as I recall - the figures for some incomprehensible reason seem to be unclear). So are we to believe that everyone had their guns stolen in the period of the statistic, or is this another of our government's massaging of the statistics to justify their initiatives? Let's face it, they have been caught at that enough times for it to become an insult to the people's intelligence.


  • #182
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    ART6 wrote: »
    I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but a casual visit to the shooting forum recently suggested that 1,200 weapons is about the total licenced guns in civilian hands (as far as I recall - the figures for some incomprehensible reason seem to be unclear). So are we to believe that everyone had their guns stolen in the period of the statistic, or is this another of our government's massaging of the statistics to justify their initiatives? Let's face it, they have been caught at that enough times for it to become an insult to the people's intelligence.

    You have it bit messed up. 230,000 is the total number of licened firearms. 1200 in the last 5 years is the number of stolen/lost firearms (thats all stolen/lost firearms not just licenced ones). 27 is the number of stolen/lost handguns in the last 5 years (thats all stolen/lost handguns not just licenced ones). That makes for a 0.1% theft/loss rate per year.

    I think if proper storage was required for all firearms that rate would drop way way down.


  • #183
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Its funny but think the attitude to firearms is the same one that has kept tasers, CS Gas, stab vests, rigid cuffs, extendable battons out of the Gardai's hands for so long. They generate the same "What if" responses from alot of people. It turned my stomach to see the pictures inthe latest Garda Review (I know getting OT).


  • #184
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    Its funny but think the attitude to firearms is the same one that has kept tasers, CS Gas, stab vests, rigid cuffs, extendable battons out of the Gardai's hands for so long. They generate the same "What if" responses from alot of people.

    Couldn't disagree more! I'm all for AGS getting TASERs and pepper spray.


  • #185
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Rew wrote: »
    1200 in the last 5 years is the number of stolen/lost firearms (thats all stolen/lost firearms not just licenced ones). 27 is the number of stolen/lost handguns in the last 5 years (thats all stolen/lost handguns not just licenced ones).

    How many illegal firearms were reported lost by criminals?:confused:


  • #186
    hk
    Registered Users Posts: 118 ✭✭hk


    I think he is suggesting that some may have wandered from garda custody, and in fairness there is a point to be examined, the minister stated that 7 or 8 handguns were stolen in 2003, but there were no licienced handguns in the country for sporting purposes at that time. he was asked the other day how many have been stolen, gone missing etc from the gardi, he said he needs more time to get those stats, however the minister for defence was able to account for how many weapons have gone missing from DF custody, all of which have gone missing/stolen on operational duty outside the state, they even know where a rifle lost overboard from a ship is, its just to deep to get back!


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  • #187
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    Couldn't disagree more! I'm all for AGS getting TASERs and pepper spray.

    I wasn't directing the comment at you more a general comment on Irish attitudes to such things.


  • #188
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    How many illegal firearms were reported lost by criminals?:confused:

    LOL, not many i'd imagine, but the 1200 stat as hk says inclueds alot of things and even guns stolen from museums that no longer work.


  • #189
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Rew wrote: »
    LOL, not many i'd imagine, but the 1200 stat as hk says inclueds alot of things and even guns stolen from museums that no longer work.

    Yeah I know, I just thought it was funny. :D


  • #190
    deadwood
    Registered Users Posts: 1,938 ✭✭✭deadwood


    Rew wrote: »
    LOL, not many i'd imagine, but the 1200 stat as hk says inclueds alot of things and even guns stolen from museums that no longer work.
    Those pirates in the Indian Ocean must have got a hold of a few of these babies.
    blunderbuss-2.jpg

    Aaaarrhh. Hand over the tanker, or i'll blast ye.


  • #191
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Karlitosway1978 wrote: »
    Yeah I know, I just thought it was funny. :D

    I've heard of crims doing some really stupid things though! :D


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  • #192
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    http://breakingnews.ie/ireland/mhsnmhgbsnmh/
    09/01/2009 - 09:02:24
    Gardaí are investigating the theft of up to 30 guns from a licensed firearms dealership in Co Tipperary early this morning.

    The owners of the dealership in the Cregg area of Carrick-on-Suir returned home from a night to find four men waiting outside the premises.

    At least one of the men was carrying a firearm.

    The couple were taken into the house and the gang proceeded to steal an assortment of guns, including pistols and rifles, before fleeing in the family car.

    No shots were fired during the robbery and nobody was injured.

    The Gardaí say they are particularly keen to locate the stolen car, a beige or champagne-coloured Honda Civic Saloon with the registration 03 WX 5048.

    That and a licensed handgun stolen in a Limerick suburb(reported in local press) means 31 licensed firearms have been stolen already in 09. Gardai have said regarding the handgun in Limerick, they fear it will be used in crime in the future.


  • #193
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    The Sig in Limerick seems to have not been locked up which is shocking but the details are limited so far. I still stand by what i've said abd Paul Willaims (who was refered to earlier in the tread) was on the Last Word Yesterday sating that going after licenced guns will have no effect, he was actually very positive about licened shooters.

    Nothing cant prevent these stye or robberies.


  • #194
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    The Sig in Limerick seems to have not been locked up which is shocking but the details are limited so far. I still stand by what i've said abd Paul Willaims (who was refered to earlier in the tread) was on the Last Word Yesterday sating that going after licenced guns will have no effect, he was actually very positive about licened shooters.

    Nothing cant prevent these stye or robberies.

    Well regarding the Sig, if it had been stored in a Garda Station(theory previously mentioned) it would not now be in criminal hands.


  • #195
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    eroo wrote: »
    Well regarding the Sig, if it had been stored in a Garda Station(theory previously mentioned) it would not now be in criminal hands.

    That was done to death already and you certainly can't say that for sure (see the link I posted to the 2 pistols that made there way from a Garda Station to a criminals appartment).


  • #196
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    Rew wrote: »
    That was done to death already and you certainly can't say that for sure (see the link I posted to the 2 pistols that made there way from a Garda Station to a criminals appartment).

    Well they seem to be making there way from private hands into criminals hands more often than they would if they were in Garda Stations.


  • #197
    Eru
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,357 ✭✭✭Eru


    Rew wrote: »
    Nothing cant prevent these stye or robberies.

    Are you serious? You see no way to stop legal firearms from being stolen from a firearm dealer? If they were not available for sale and not available to legally own they could not have been stolen. Its fairly simple.

    And this blows the theory concerning theft V smuggling out of the water.


  • #198
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Re-read the thread. the senario that happend was well covered and there is no easy way to combat it. It's well used against banks and other cash rich business for a while now. Also the figures for stolen firearms are listed earlier its not a big secret thats been busted now.

    The theory is far from blown, its a fact that lots of guns come in in the drug shipments (something Paul Williams went on about the other day). How many firearms dealers are robbed each week versus how many drug shipments are landing in? We have a 0.1% legal firearm theft rate hardly epidemic.

    No legal firearms doesnt not equate to no criminals haveing guns. The criminals need to be delt with to stop the crime.


  • #199
    eroo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,084 ✭✭✭eroo


    http://www.independent.ie/national-news/raid-gun-haul-likely-to-end-up-in-hands-of-feud-gangs-1597815.html
    Last month, it was revealed that 31 handguns had been stolen by criminals since the law was relaxed four years ago. These included a variety of pistols and revolvers taken from the owners' homes.
    Granted it is not an epidemic, it is still 31 handguns in the possession of scrotes. 31 too many imo.


  • #200
    TheNog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,160 ✭✭✭TheNog


    Heres a simple idea that could be implemented quite easily for firearms dealers:

    Have their premises alarm monitored in such a way that if the alarm is deactivated within a certain time frame say between 5.30pm to 8.30am the next day, the alarm company calls Gardai right away. Would go a long way to prevent this type of MO.


  • #201
    Rew
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 8,679 Mod ✭✭✭✭Rew


    Yeah I was thinking about something similar alright. Would make the premisis the time locked like a bank. This guy was pretty remote by the sounds of it so I would say they would wait till 9am and do it anyway. His setup sounds like he ran some sort of shooting busniess like clays etc on site and also acted as a dealer. Its quite a common setup here. I've mentioned duress codes before as well, but as you said whould sombody use a duress code with peoples lives at stake.


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