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10 More Years Of Austerity - John Bruton

2»

Comments

  • #52
    Tail Docker
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,954 ✭✭✭Tail Docker


    Davarus Walrus wrote: »
    You see, this is the type of cheap and vague rhetoric that seems to be popular. The Weakest and the Strongest. A battle to the death.

    Fire out a couple of the things you would have done differently. Back of a fag packet type of answers.

    Unsecured/Juniour Bondholders would have sung for it for a start, with negotiated percentile payments to Senior bondholders - think 10%, not 100%. All bank debt would have remained just that -bank debt. Tax rates for corporations would have been fixed at the 10% rate, but actually collected, at 10% - not the 1% they accept. No dodges or excuses. Like it or leave, you'll get no better anywhere else.

    Pensions, salaries and perks in the PS would have died on their arse, same for all past pension deals done - €37k max PA to any one person, regardless. Like it or leave it.

    I could go on. Might as well dream here as in bed.

    Red tape for start-up enterprises would go out the door on their arse too - bend over backwards to get people into business. If every small business employed two people, and you had dozens starting every day, unfettered, people would create their own wealth. The State kills more businesses than it creates.


  • #53
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    FG has always thought of themselves as elite and always will. Hell bent on passing the burden over in stealth taxes knowing full well that those at the bottom can't afford it. But it's better in their opinion than having higher taxes on the wealty.

    Soon they be telling us that there is no bank debt

    sooner they are out of power the better.


  • #54
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Davarus Walrus wrote: »
    The current Government didn't decide to become unpopular out of choice. They had to make some of the most radical decisions at an economic level in the history of the State. If there were viable and workable alternatives to what they had to do then I'm sure they'd be on it like a fly on shít.

    So excuse me if I find people like Paul Murphy going on about no water charges, no cuts to services and a €13 an hour minimum wage, as being the type of political woo that should be questioned. It's the worst type of cynical populism masquerading as socialism.

    I don't think they did but that doesn't mean they have the intelligence and ethics to prevent the worst of in society from getting worse.


  • #55
    Son Of A Vidic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,370 ✭✭✭✭Son Of A Vidic


    visual wrote: »
    FG has always thought of themselves as elite and always will.

    Just think of an Irish version of Harry Enfield's Tory Boy character, but with a huge Cow's Lick added.


  • #56
    cooperguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    visual wrote: »
    FG has always thought of themselves as elite and always will. Hell bent on passing the burden over in stealth taxes knowing full well that those at the bottom can't afford it. But it's better in their opinion than having higher taxes on the wealty.
    At what level would you consider someone wealthy and what should the tax be increased to?


  • #57
    IvaBigWun
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 5,368 ✭✭✭IvaBigWun


    They can go fúck themselves.

    Our nationwide mantra of "ah sure it'll be grand" is slowly morphing into "wait. what?!" and all the better for it.

    More austerity? More USC?

    You're having a fúcking laugh! Its almost revolution time.






    *takes deep breaths and counts to ten*


  • #58
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    cooperguy wrote: »
    At what level would you consider someone wealthy and what should the tax be increased to?

    Apple Goggle would be good examples
    not wasting money on hot air projects like wind power. Having enough cop on not to sign up to a self imposed carbon tax. Wasting money make a private water company and costly meters. The list is endless but transfer of banking debt was beyond belief. Yes FF made a total ass of it but FG knowing continued with it.

    Everything FG/Lab has touched has gone wrong
    even the spin about transferring short term loans to long term.

    But back to your question 100k & 60% tax and look for savings doing things differently not spend all day every day dreaming up stealth taxes and setting up quangos.


  • #59
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    cooperguy wrote: »
    At what level would you consider someone wealthy and what should the tax be increased to?

    It's not a matter of absolute value but relative value. Someone who has more should bear the burden more than someone who has less. Someone who has more can bear more burden than someone with less. Head of school in UCD (head of zoology, medicine ect) has a wage of 150 grand plus. If we take into account the other perks of the job that is a conservative estimate.

    Now he has taken a pay cut but he hasn't had to change house, car or holidays. In a society where people are becoming homeless people with downs syndrome are being assessed for medical cards and poverty is increasing that simply isn't good enough.

    Public bodies like the HSE have massive amounts of money wasted every year. I would say the same is true for many state bodies.

    Reduce the deficit by all and any means but target the less well off in society as a last resort.


  • #60
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭emo72


    visual wrote: »
    Apple Goggle would be good examples
    not wasting money on hot air projects like wind power. Having enough cop on not to sign up to a self imposed carbon tax. Wasting money make a private water company and costly meters. The list is endless but transfer of banking debt was beyond belief. Yes FF made a total ass of it but FG knowing continued with it.

    Everything FG/Lab has touched has gone wrong
    even the spin about transferring short term loans to long term.

    But back to your question 100k and look for savings doing things differently not spend all day every day dreaming up stealth taxes and setting up quangos.

    ah man. thats a great reply. its all real too. im with ya:pac:


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  • #61
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭emo72


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    It's not a matter of absolute value but relative value. Someone who has more should bear the burden more than someone who has less. Someone who has more can bear more burden than someone with less. Head of school in UCD (head of zoology, medicine ect) has a wage of 150 grand plus. If we take into account the other perks of the job that is a conservative estimate.

    Now he has taken a pay cut but he hasn't had to change house, car or holidays. In a society where people are becoming homeless people with downs syndrome are being assessed for medical cards and poverty is increasing that simply isn't good enough.

    Public bodies like the HSE have massive amounts of money wasted every year. I would say the same is true for many state bodies.

    Reduce the deficit by all and any means but target the less well off in society as a last resort.

    ah jesus mate to much realism and honesty there. what you say is fair and it makes sense. this wont go down well with the austerity junkies. prepare for the onslaught!


  • #62
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    Please wait . . . you post is in a queue . . . . shils have been dispatched and will be with you shortly


  • #63
    kikidelvin
    Registered Users Posts: 109 ✭✭kikidelvin


    oppenheimer1 wrote: »
    I think Mr Burton is being overly pessimistic. From the experiences of other countries it generally takes about 10 years to get over the kind of shock we went through. We are halfway through that, so I expect another 5 years of budget tightening - but that the worst is over.


    At the end of that period there may be a time where there will essentially be no change in the budget position and a further few years until we see real movement on things like tax reductions or increases in benefits.

    Another five years of cuts etc. and there will be feck -all left for them either to tax or levy or reduce .


  • #64
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    emo72 wrote: »
    ah jesus mate to much realism and honesty there. what you say is fair and it makes sense. this wont go down well with the auterity junkies. prepare for the onslaught!

    Austerity is the excuse and disguises that taxes are transfered from the wealty to the poor.

    Water is a good example
    medical cards for rich kids while slightly older poorer kids lose theirs
    The new health insurance will be another
    Why wasn't child allowance means tested ?

    This is all about redistribute of wealth during a critical time when there isnt money in a lot of peoples pockets.


  • #65
    emo72
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,317 ✭✭✭emo72


    visual wrote: »
    Austerity is the excuse and disguises that taxes are transfered from the wealty to the poor.

    Water is a good example
    medical cards for rich kids while slightly older poorer kids lose theirs
    The new health insurance will be another
    Why wasn't child allowance means tested ?

    This is all about redistribute of wealth during a critical time when there isnt money in a lot of peoples pockets.

    FG just can't understand that

    "does your child still have downs syndrome?" what a horrific question and downright stupid question. and enda says he knows this is wrong and its not what he wanted. WELL HIS GOVERNMENT IMPLEMENTED THE REVIEW OF DISCRETIONARY MEDICAL CARDS. really ENDA your government instructed the HSE to make hundreds of millions of savings with medical cards, what did you think would happen. you are are disgrace to this country.how do you even sleep??? then he ****ing cries about the hurt it caused? no he is only concerned about the votes it cost him. dont forget this when the general election comes around. FF/FG/LAB are all equally responsible.


  • #66
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    He was a mealy mouthed appeaser with Unionists.

    He was a mealy mouthed appeaser with the British.

    He's now a mealy mouthed appeaser with European banks.

    At least he's consistent.


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  • #67
    ryan101
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,671 ✭✭✭ryan101


    comongethappy wrote: »
    Why wasn't child allowance means tested ?

    As he even says himself, it is hard to believe the likes of Michael O'Leary gets children's allowance every week. Something is badly wrong in this country.
    But sure as John says it's ten more years of austerity for himself and Michael.


  • #68
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    I use to consider myself centre of the road seeing the flaws at both extremes but its all gone wrong. Greed nepotism self interest is alive and well in FF & FG lab PDs Greens all chancers might start out with good intentions but thats it.

    Watching the Dail and leaders questions its clear the independent and SF are earning their keep.

    I didn't care for the garda commissioner but its clear he was forsed to step down and the hole garda saga is just hagging in the air like a bad smell

    No one in jail with all the corruption in banks & government and more importantly no one prepared to take on senior civil servants who are the hidden players and have a lot to do with where we are now.

    I gave my vote for council to SF as ive no idea what my previous councilors where doing.
    I gave my vote for Europe to SF because I believe they will represent irish people interest before Europe's

    there is too many European laws that are really a tax

    so this is my first time voting SF even if I'm wrong about them they can't be worse than idiots off on some save the world crusade that results in carbon tax and higher motor tax.


  • #69
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    visual wrote: »
    Apple Goggle would be good examples
    not wasting money on hot air projects like wind power. Having enough cop on not to sign up to a self imposed carbon tax. Wasting money make a private water company and costly meters. The list is endless but transfer of banking debt was beyond belief. Yes FF made a total ass of it but FG knowing continued with it.

    Everything FG/Lab has touched has gone wrong
    even the spin about transferring short term loans to long term.

    But back to your question 100k & 60% tax and look for savings doing things differently not spend all day every day dreaming up stealth taxes and setting up quangos.

    Fcuking hell. This kind of sh*te angers me. Why the fcuk would I bother getting a good educatiton and working for years to get to a good position within my industry/company, only to give 60% of my salary away? What's the point?

    Lunatics.


  • #70
    Mongfinder General
    Registered Users Posts: 1,992 ✭✭✭Mongfinder General


    visual wrote: »
    I use to consider myself centre of the road seeing the flaws at both extremes but its all gone wrong. Greed nepotism self interest is alive and well in FF & FG lab PDs Greens all chancers might start out with good intentions but thats it.

    Watching the Dail and leaders questions its clear the independent and SF are earning their keep.

    I didn't care for the garda commissioner but its clear he was forsed to step down and the hole garda saga is just hagging in the air like a bad smell

    No one in jail with all the corruption in banks & government and more importantly no one prepared to take on senior civil servants who are the hidden players and have a lot to do with where we are now.

    I gave my vote for council to SF as ive no idea what my previous councilors where doing.
    I gave my vote for Europe to SF because I believe they will represent irish people interest before Europe's

    there is too many European laws that are really a tax

    so this is my first time voting SF even if I'm wrong about them they can't be worse than idiots off on some save the world crusade that results in carbon tax and higher motor tax.

    The Provos have a "hit list" a mile long and even longer memories. Fine Gaelers have probably most to fear from them in Ireland. The Provos have arguably a better relationship with Unionists these days than with FG, and definitely a better working relationship for sure.

    What scares the other parties is change, be it it for better or worse. The Provos will punch way above their weight in Europe and piss a lot of people off. They won't be afraid of anything that gets in their way here. And they can get very close and personal very quickly.


  • #71
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    Dave! wrote: »
    Fcuking hell. This kind of sh*te angers me. Why the fcuk would I bother getting a good educatiton and working for years to get to a good position within my industry/company, only to give 60% of my salary away? What's the point?

    Lunatics.

    60% would be on what earned over100k
    guess you rather pay zero.

    I really hope your not paided out of tax payers money in some quango or semi state.

    By the way there is a lot of people who have gone through collage who dont earn above 100k


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  • #72
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Dave! wrote: »
    Fcuking hell. This kind of sh*te angers me. Why the fcuk would I bother getting a good educatiton and working for years to get to a good position within my industry/company, only to give 60% of my salary away? What's the point?

    Lunatics.

    I came from a relatively poor background to get a decent education. At no point during my years in poverty would I say "only on 60 grand a year (After tax) f that!!".

    The other point is if people are concerned primarily about the money rather than love of subject then they are in education for the wrong reasons.


  • #73
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Which is worse. Increasing homelessness or people giving up more of their salaries until the recession ends. Everyone seems to be pro austerity until it comes to their own salaries. These cuts are hitting the very worse off making it harder for people to get education in the first place.


  • #74
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    Mongfinder General wrote: »
    The Provos have a "hit list" a mile long and even longer memories. Fine Gaelers have probably most to fear from them in Ireland. The Provos have arguably a better relationship with Unionists these days than with FG, and definitely a better working relationship for sure.

    What scares the other parties is change, be it it for better or worse. The Provos will punch way above their weight in Europe and piss a lot of people off. They won't be afraid of anything that gets in their way here. And they can get very close and personal very quickly.

    I have watched Enda face as he replies to SF and its apparent his dislike for them shows no bounds. But more importantly he lacks any answer and resorts to draging it back to SF and its relationship with IRA.

    Are we forever to be in 1916 or stuck in the troubles of NI

    time to move on

    what I do know is come election time I don't want FF or FG in power. Its just a merry dance with one or the other always in government.

    But being realistic I guess that not change for many years. Both have the same policies and same scruples.


  • #75
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Dave! wrote: »
    Why the fcuk would I bother getting a good educatiton ... only to give 60% of my salary away?

    Your education wasn't very good if you have to ask such an oh-so-stupid question.

    Here you go.


  • #76
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    visual wrote: »
    60% would be on what earned over100k
    guess you rather pay zero.

    Ah, that's not as bad.
    I'd rather pay a reasonable rate that doesn't stifle my motivation for advancing my career.
    visual wrote: »
    I really hope your not paided out of tax payers money in some quango or semi state.

    By the way there is a lot of people who have gone through collage who dont earn above 100k

    Yes, most people (including college graduates) don't earn over 100k, nor do I.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    I came from a relatively poor background to get a decent education. At no point during my years in poverty would I say "only on 60 grand a year (After tax) f that!!".

    Me too, and neither would I. Nor would I begrudge someone who does have ambitions to earn more than that. It bothers me that other people get to define someone else's ambitions or say "that's enough for you buddy" even if the person came from poverty themselves and created their wealth through their own hard work.
    steddyeddy wrote: »
    The other point is if people are concerned primarily about the money rather than love of subject then they are in education for the wrong reasons.

    "Education for education's sake" is not the only reason to go to college. Unfortunately my college course was pretty sh*t so I got little out of it, but going to college to learn a set of skills to equip you with the ability to e.g. start a business, build an app, is as valid a reason to study as indulging your love of Shakespearean sonnets. Being primarily concerned about money isn't good though, no.


  • #77
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Your education wasn't very good if you have to ask such an oh-so-stupid question.

    Here you go.

    Maybe that answers some other question, just not my one.

    I don't aim to advance my career and increase my salary because of energy supply systems, no. That doesn't motivate me hugely.


  • #78
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Dave I don't begrudge anyone a high wage. The reason I want people on a higher wage to take more of a hit isn't spite it's a desire the protect the worse off in society. I think a happy society is one where we reward those who work hard but also protect those who need it.


  • #79
    WilyCoyote
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,059 ✭✭✭WilyCoyote


    jjbrien wrote: »
    His Bro Richard Bruton is the one on Griffith Avenue

    And his wife is MOTORMOUTH!


  • #80
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    Dave! wrote: »
    Maybe that answers some other question, just not my one.

    I don't aim to advance my career and increase my salary because of energy supply systems, no. That doesn't motivate me hugely.

    Here's your question about why you should get a good 'educatition' only to 'give away' 60% of your salary:
    Why the fcuk would I bother getting a good educatiton and working for years to get to a good position within my industry/company, only to give 60% of my salary away?

    You wouldn't be 'giving away' 60% of your salary you'd be investing in the very system that has enabled you, the system that spends your taxes on:
    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Motorways/roads, airports, ports, police, courts, prisons, hospitals, universities, graduates, publicly funded R&D, controlled borders, schools, defence, energy supply systems, tax breaks, mortgage relief etc.

    Don't listen to silly 'ol me though, listen to the 'Father of Capitalism':
    The subjects of every state ought to contribute towards the support of the government, as nearly as possible, in proportion to their respective abilities; that is, in proportion to the revenue which they respectively enjoy under the protection of the state. The expense of government to the individuals of a great nation is like the expense of management to the joint tenants of a great estate, who are all obliged to contribute in proportion to their respective interests in the estate.

    Adam Smith
    Wealth of Nations


  • #81
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Karl Stein wrote: »
    Your education wasn't very good if you have to ask such an oh-so-stupid question.

    Here you go.

    In fairness ad hominin attacks are indicative of a poor argument. I agree that those better off need to pay a heavier burden but attacking a person's education isn't the way about it.


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  • #82
    Karl Stein
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,689 ✭✭✭Karl Stein


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    ad hominin attacks

    I didn't attack the person, did I? I thought I was questioning his views.

    He could be a perfect gentleman for all I know.


  • #83
    Cookie_Monster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,522 ✭✭✭✭Cookie_Monster


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Dave I don't begrudge anyone a high wage. The reason I want people on a higher wage to take more of a hit isn't spite it's a desire the protect the worse off in society. I think a happy society is one where we reward those who work hard but also protect those who need it.

    As it is those on higher wages already take a vastly bigger hit than those on lower ones. Why should they continue to be hit for more and more while getting less and less in return?

    http://www.ronanlyons.com/2009/07/28/a-little-quiz-on-irelands-income-tax/
    while it's alittle out of date now, it's not going to have changed massilvy:
    Ireland’s top 0.5% of earners, the 11,714 people who earned more than €275,000 in a year, paid almost 18% of all income tax, over €2bn in total. Their average tax rate was 27.5%.
    Almost 770,000 people earned less than €17,000. Understandably, given tax credits, these workers paid a tiny amount of tax, €20m in total. Their average tax rate was about 0.5%.
    It’s in the middle, though, where things seem to go all screwy. The median earner, earning about €25,000, paid just 4% in income tax! As I argued before, we seem to have got ourselves into a situation where the typical Irish worker pays hardly any income tax and yet seems to think they are heavily taxed.


  • #84
    The Diabolical Monocle
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,618 ✭✭✭The Diabolical Monocle


    "The biggest mistake you can make in politics is to promise something that you can’t or won’t deliver"

    - J. Bruton


    ....... mmmmmm yeah. No I'm pretty sure theres one particular bigger mistake.


  • #85
    cooperguy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,650 ✭✭✭cooperguy


    visual wrote: »
    But back to your question 100k & 60% tax and look for savings doing things differently not spend all day every day dreaming up stealth taxes and setting up quangos.

    I just have a problem with the government getting more of your wage than the person who earned it (and I earn nowhere near 100k). What is the point in trying to increase your profits or wages if you only get 40c out of every euro. People who earn 100k or more already pay the vast majority of the income tax in the country.


  • #86
    visual
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,267 ✭✭✭visual


    nearly 1/4 of everything you buy with the remaining money is taxed at the VALUE ADDED TAX rate of 23%

    because you don't get the benefit of tax loopholes

    now how much tax are you really paying ?

    when you have a larger salary you can use pension funds buy property with tax relief

    when you don't there is no loopholes or tax breaks


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