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7 dead in Californian Shooting
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Pathetic. This whole sorry mess and the sorry state of this sick individual's head.
I've worked in big newsrooms across the world for years and no story even comes close to paralleling the frequency that these shootings by privileged/white guys in the US pop up and the extensive coverage that they get.
While mental illness is obviously at the root of it, there's just so many factors at play that it's hard to see how these kind of incidents will ever go away - from second amendment and gun ownership laws and attitudes to this 'celebrity' culture created around the asshats who perpetrate these crimes, to the narcissism and materialism and oneupmanship bred by facebook/online culture, on and on ad nauseum. Those seemingly harmless albeit annoying features can become dangerous among people like this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.
I hate that this guy's innermost thoughts are blasted across the web for all and sundry to read and be influenced by. That he can name-drop a bunch of innocent people who are just going about their lives and all of a sudden they're the gaze of the internet and their lives are changed for the worse forever more. Not to mention his victims of course.
What made him think that his innermost thoughts and takes on the world were of any consequence or interest to the public in the first place is what's so wrong with this narcissistic-inspired celebrity culture around these mass murderers. Fcuk his manifesto. Fcuk 'learning a lesson' from this. How many more 'lessons' does America need to learn?
Not usually a Michael Moore fan but he pretty much sums this whole thing up for me -
I don't know if that made him think the way he did.
But I think you are right in the way that being rich etc helped him get away with his attitude and behavior for so long.
Apparently he had pushed people at a party off a ledge ...if he had been poor or something I think something would have been done. He would have had been checked into a hospital or something.this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.
Strip away the accessorizes and look at just the person and that was what he was. If he had not had the accessorizes of wealth and respectability perhaps people would have seen the rest of him sooner.0 -
..........The way the media hype up the perpetrator may have something to do with it also. The media here are awful, we agree on that
This individual wasn't affected by most of those problems
To the ones like that, the whole being all over the media, police cars, and and and is just their next best dream come true
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The media seems to have turned it's attention towards the Misogynist angle which I think sucks because it doesn't look at the bigger picture and may be why they are going that route. The call of hate crime when the majority of those that died were men seems misplaced to me right now. Also the hate crime angle only being played towards the women is a little insulting when he talked ill of the Asian fella at the party and his Asian housemates..he also killed three Asian men (Him identifying as a EurAsian and emphasizing his whiteness)
I agree that there were a few things at play here, but the thing is, his target was a sorority, and his ramblings only really talk about hating men in relation to women. Just because he was bad at killing women doesn't mean he wasn't motivated wholly or in part by a hatred of them, and I think his writing makes that fairly clear. If you think about somebody like the Shankill Butchers, they killed a number of protestants by accident, but nobody doubts their motivation as a hatred of catholics.
It's also worth noting that this is the latest in a couple of recent and very troubling incidents with a common theme. It's the first I've really seen get mainstream coverage, but you have to think of it in that context. I would argue that there has been far more blame put at the door of mental illness than misogyny by many outlets, and frankly I'm not entirely sold on that as the be all and end all.0 -
jill_valentine wrote: »I agree that there were a few things at play here, but the thing is, his target was a sorority, and his ramblings only really talk about hating men in relation to women. Just because he was bad at killing women doesn't mean he wasn't motivated wholly or in part by a hatred of them, and I think his writing makes that fairly clear. If you think about somebody like the Shankill Butchers, they killed a number of protestants by accident, but nobody doubts their motivation as a hatred of catholics.
It's also worth noting that this is the latest in a couple of recent and very troubling incidents with a common theme. It's the first I've really seen get mainstream coverage, but you have to think of it in that context. I would argue that there has been far more blame put at the door of mental illness than misogyny by many outlets, and frankly I'm not entirely sold on that as the be all and end all.
My local news outlet has been playing the misogynist angle. CNN also went that route but seem to be losing interest in the story. Al Jazeera on the other hand haven't talked much about it at all and didn't show pictures of the guy and just about mentioned his name about half way into the story. It started with calling him madman..
If he did have Aspergers, it explains his difficult time socializing. It also may explain his attitude towards women. The tough time people will have with that is the fact he was getting treatment...so, perhaps the treatment didn't help. Over here that will hurt the NRA's argument about funding for mental illness rather than stricter gun controls. If treatment might not help and someone like him can get a gun....it doesn't give much confidence0 -
jill_valentine wrote: »I agree that there were a few things at play here, but the thing is, his target was a sorority, and his ramblings only really talk about hating men in relation to women. Just because he was bad at killing women doesn't mean he wasn't motivated wholly or in part by a hatred of them, and I think his writing makes that fairly clear. If you think about somebody like the Shankill Butchers, they killed a number of protestants by accident, but nobody doubts their motivation as a hatred of catholics.
Pretty sure the 3 guys he stabbed to death at the start of his rampage weren't accidental.0 -
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auldgranny wrote: »Manic Moran you say the police cannot look for a warrant without just cause. A man's parents going to them and tellingv them he had psychiatric problems and had posted threats online would not seem like just cause enough to you?
They should have just phoned in to say he was an Al Quaeda supporter and was making threats - he'd have been in the back of a SWAT van within the hour. Editing a few of his missives would have done the trick, change a few "bullies" into "infidels" - job done.0 -
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Pathetic. This whole sorry mess and the sorry state of this sick individual's head.
I've worked in big newsrooms across the world for years and no story even comes close to paralleling the frequency that these shootings by privileged/white guys in the US pop up and the extensive coverage that they get.
While mental illness is obviously at the root of it, there's just so many factors at play that it's hard to see how these kind of incidents will ever go away - from second amendment and gun ownership laws and attitudes to this 'celebrity' culture created around the asshats who perpetrate these crimes, to the narcissism and materialism and oneupmanship bred by facebook/online culture, on and on ad nauseum. Those seemingly harmless albeit annoying features can become dangerous among people like this most recent individual, who clearly had chronic social and interpersonal skills, a personality disorder and a propensity towards violence and anger...and then easy access to a bunch of lethal weapons.
I hate that this guy's innermost thoughts are blasted across the web for all and sundry to read and be influenced by. That he can name-drop a bunch of innocent people who are just going about their lives and all of a sudden they're the gaze of the internet and their lives are changed for the worse forever more. Not to mention his victims of course.
What made him think that his innermost thoughts and takes on the world were of any consequence or interest to the public in the first place is what's so wrong with this narcissistic-inspired celebrity culture around these mass murderers. Fcuk his manifesto. Fcuk 'learning a lesson' from this. How many more 'lessons' does America need to learn?
Not usually a Michael Moore fan but he pretty much sums this whole thing up for me -
America is never going to learn as long as it keeps scapegoating these individuals.
I disagree with Moore on one fundamental claim he makes. Violence is way more saturated and woven into the fabric of American life. I have to turn off the news when my child is in the room. Stories of gun shots and 7 year olds getting raped on their doorsteps. EVERY SINGLE night. So I turn it off.
Elementary school students get lock down drills now, along with their tornado and firedrills, thus validating the school shooting as a normal part of life.
Narcissism, materialism, entitlement, the violent solution, the gun as a symbol of individual power, as well as sexual exploits tied into male self esteem.... everyone is complicit in creating these values and then everyone scapegoats the monster when everyone had a little part in his creation. When everyone takes that on board, maybe America will learn its lesson.0 -
jill_valentine wrote: »Rather think you've missed the point there.
They haven't really. You mentioned Shankill Butchers and accidentally killing protestants, he didn't accidentally kill men he targeted them as well. The guy hated absolutely everyone, men and women, different races etc. he just focused on women more. It was symptom rather than a cause IMO.0 -
They haven't really. You mentioned Shankill Butchers and accidentally killing protestants, he didn't accidentally kill men he targeted them as well. The guy hated absolutely everyone, men and women, different races etc. he just focused on women more. It was symptom rather than a cause IMO.
To clarify then; my point is that the ultimate breakdown of victims isn't solely what determines somebody's motive. If somebody spends hours and hours ranting about how much they hate women, and hate men because of women, and then sets out to shoot down a sorority, it's safe to say their perceived issue with the world is not how Subway put the cheese on.
Again, yes there were plenty of other factors, and yes he hated everyone, but as you say, he focussed on women in particular. All I'm getting at is that looking at the intended victims would probably offer more insight than just looking at who he managed to actually kill. Once something like this actually starts happening, there's a large element of "opportunity targeting"0 -
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The morale of this story is for normal well adjusted people who know odd, creepy and weird people to try and get to know them, attempt to help them if they can and if they can't be helped keep an eye on them before they blow up.0
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jill_valentine wrote: »Rather think you've missed the point there.
I didn't think it was a very good point. Aside from anything else very few of the Protestants killed by the Shankill Butchers were cases of religious mistaken identity. People are more than capable of having multiple motivations or indeed not having any.0 -
I didn't think it was a very good point. Aside from anything else very few of the Protestants killed by the Shankill Butchers were cases of religious mistaken identity. People are more than capable of having multiple motivations or indeed not having any.
Lenny Murphy the leader of the Shankill Butchers would probably have been a psychopathic murderer and criminal regardless of the Troubles.
The average loyalist murder was committed by a kid you had shaking hands when he ran up to a stranger presumed to be a Catholic and put a bullet in him and would not have been sure until he heard a radio bulletin or read the newspaper that he had actually killed someone.
Murphy meanwhile killed for kicks. He was totally cool and calm as he went about killing.
He had his mates would drive around in a black taxi to pick up Catholics staggering home from the pub. He enjoyed cutting them with butcher knives and beating them black and blue with a tire iron. When he killed his victims he cut their throat back to the spine with a cleaver and usually displayed the bodies in a grotesque posture so that the throat wound was laid wide open.
Killing people was as casual for Murphy as going for chips, getting drunk or picking up women.
Had Rodger been a taller more physically powerful man and if he had learned how to socialize and interact with women he would simply have been a more effective killer.
Ted Bundy for instance was a handsome man who was erudite and cultured, extremely intelligent, charming and adored by women.
Bundy could only get sexual satisfaction through the torture, rape and murder of women so the facade of a man who your daughter would take home to Mom was an ideal.
He would befriend women by wearing a plaster cast on his arm or leg and struggle to carry a bundle of books so that women would be only too happy to help him carry them to his car where he would hit over the head and take them away.0 -
Tail Docker wrote: »They should have just phoned in to say he was an Al Quaeda supporter and was making threats - he'd have been in the back of a SWAT van within the hour. Editing a few of his missives would have done the trick, change a few "bullies" into "infidels" - job done.
That is actually a strangely interesting point.0 -
Call Me Jimmy wrote: »That is actually a strangely interesting point.
The Muslim guys who were planning to bomb the Tyger Tyger nightclub in London constantly ranted about the "sluts" and "whores" who frequented the place. They adopted Islam because they were socially inept and also inept with the opposite sex and because Islam prescribes murder for women who break Islamic rules they plotted to kill infidel women. Islamist ideology was simply a mask for their psychopathic motivations.0 -
I meant from the American perspective where one felt someone they knew was on the brink, other authorities have failed, if the 't'-word gets dropped, that person would be more likely to be detained.
I just thought it was interesting.0 -
But I agree Islam is a good fit if someone harbours ill-feeling towards women.0
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Hollywood must be blamed for fueling the fantasies of lone shooters because the icons of American action movies are the laconic loners who come into town and blow everyone away such as The Man With No Name, The Terminator, Paul Kersey, John McClane, Mad Max, and Neo.
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I have a brother with AS and you would not believe how difficult he finds it to see things as most others. He has a complete lack of empathy and it caused the family problems for years. When my grandfather died he told my mother he was not sad because he was old and sick and that's what happened to old and sick people. When my sister lost a baby he asked her why she was sad about something that was not even alive. He is not intentionally cruel or heartless, he just does not feel for others.
I am not saying he could ever do anything sick like this but he can be as emotionally detached as that guy in the videos.
Its seems to me this guy was extremely bitter, fuled from years of stewing over percieved injustice. I would have assumed this was an emotional mindset rather than an intellectual response? excuse my ignorance but do people with AS not generally view things more logically, ie with an emotional detachment like carriag says is the case with their brother? Or is there a variety in emotions that they might feel..like be void of empathy but able to compute jealousy?
My cousin is autistic and well capable of rage but it is generally as a result of logical reasoning, say for example, he cant fit a jigsaw piece together, his rage will be a snap reaction to that frustration? but he would never have the capability to "hold a grudge" against the jigsaw for previously annoying him?
Suppose it deppends where on the spectrum you lie, just interested to know?0 -
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Master of the UniverseJoin Date:Posts: 34766
Hollywood must be blamed for fueling the fantasies of lone shooters because the icons of American action movies are the laconic loners who come into town and blow everyone away such as The Man With No Name, The Terminator, Paul Kersey, John McClane, Mad Max, and Neo.
Indeed, we must put a halt to all media that portrays violence in any way for fear of lone gunmen!
Quick, hand in your action movie DVDs for destruction before we're all blown away! :eek:0 -
Well, there's the usual conspiracy theories out there that satanism had something to do with it or that Elliot Rodger doesn't exist ("Where is his body!?!") and this was a ploy to take guns away from Americans.
And, of course, the Illuminati :pac:0 -
Well, there's the usual conspiracy theories out there that satanism had something to do with it or that Elliot Rodger doesn't exist ("Where is his body!?!") and this was a ploy to take guns away from Americans.
And, of course, the Illuminati :pac:
I blame chemtrails. Which are illuminati clouds so we should get rid of clouds too. I'll be busy yelling at them.0 -
From quickly reading through it two things struck me
He played ALOT of video games.
And he didnt know the Lottery existed till he turned 18!0 -
The US won't, since the gun lobby has (a) purchased enough politicians that it can kill pretty much any laws that might restrict the sale of guns and (b) wound up the public into such a state of fear that they feel that the only answer to their continually violent society and the lurid reporting of it is, well, to buy lots more guns.Foxhound38 wrote: »How many times does some unhinged nutcase need to shoot up a school before the US does something about its gun culture?
One possible way out is if enough of the honest, decent, peaceful part of society can realize that there are enough of them out there to repudiate the gun lobby. But until that time though, the gun lobby will continue to help perpetuate the slaughter.
Otherwise, well, what The Onion says:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,361310 -
The US won't, since the gun lobby has (a) purchased enough politicians that it can kill pretty much any laws that might restrict the sale of guns and (b) wound up the public into such a state of fear that they feel that the only answer to their continually violent society and the lurid reporting of it is, well, to buy lots more guns.
One possible way out is if enough of the honest, decent, peaceful part of society can realize that there are enough of them out there to repudiate the gun lobby. But until that time though, the gun lobby will continue to help perpetuate the slaughter.
Otherwise, well, what The Onion says:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this,36131
Three of the victims were killed with knives. Rodger also tried to kill people with his car. He could have used petrol to burn down the sorority house and kill many more people.
Banning or restricting guns does not keep guns out of the hands of maniacs.
It prevents law abiding citizens from having a means to defend themselves.
Criminals and maniacs do not obey the law and therefore they would ignore bans and restrictions on firearms.
America is already so heavily armed a society that it is insanity for a homeowner NOT to own a gun or guns to protect his family.
There is no way in hell that people are going to hand over their guns if laws were passed against guns.0 -
I couldn't be bothered rebutting this tiresome nonsense for the zillionth time.Banning or restricting guns does not keep guns out of the hands of maniacs. It prevents law abiding citizens from having a means to defend themselves.
The statistics are strikingly clear and to one ratio or another, are repeated ad nauseam in every country in the world.
If you have a gun, you are far, far more likely to suffer from gun violence, either self-inflicted (intentionally or otherwise) or not self-inflicted (intentionally or otherwise).
Pretending otherwise -- or repeating long-debunked NRA-sponsored talking points as you have here -- isn't going to make somebody with a gun any less likely to suffer injury or death.0 -
Three of the victims were killed with knives. Rodger also tried to kill people with his car. He could have used petrol to burn down the sorority house and kill many more people.
Banning or restricting guns does not keep guns out of the hands of maniacs.
It prevents law abiding citizens from having a means to defend themselves.
Criminals and maniacs do not obey the law and therefore they would ignore bans and restrictions on firearms.
America is already so heavily armed a society that it is insanity for a homeowner NOT to own a gun or guns to protect his family.
There is no way in hell that people are going to hand over their guns if laws were passed against guns.
Pity Adam Lanza's mom didn't have a gun.:rolleyes:0 -
Pity Adam Lanza's mom didn't have a gun.:rolleyes:
There are hundreds of millions of firearms in circulation in the U.S. There is no way Americans are going to give up those weapons therefore unless they want to be robbed and killed no American with any sense is not going to own a gun to protect themselves and their property. Basic common sense. It is different in Ireland where there are few guns in private hands.
The genie is not going back in the bottle in the U.S. Get real.0 -
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Call Me Jimmy wrote: »That is actually a strangely interesting point.
It is interesting to think about but I don't think it is remotely true. Lots of the US terrorism cases I have heard of in recent years involve somebody saying stuff on the internet. The FBI noticing , contacting them pretending to be Al Quaeda and collecting intel on them for months. Usually encouraging them alone the way so that they can collect good evidence.0 -
Some of the sensationalism in this thread is good enough to be on CNN and FOX...0
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It's not one thing or the other though, is it? The media always looks for simplistic, easy soundbite solutions, to cases like this. To pin the blame on one factor among many is both to do an injustice to all the victims (including the killer- unpleasant and ultimately totally culpable though he was, he was an unhappy person who could perhaps have been helped) and to fail to learn anything from the situation.
To big up the mental illness angle is to ignore the bigger picture, and I say that as a mental health professional who is equally angry when obvious mental health issues are ignored in such stories! If ER did have Aspergers (which is not a mental illness, but a developmental disorder anyway), then it explains the obvious difficulties with social understanding he had, as well as the rigid and rule-based behaviour, and the objectification of other people. This maybe explains why he went so much further in pursuit of his beliefs than most other internet misogynists, but it doesn't dictate the focus of his obsession.
In my opinion, he was an outwardly privileged, but ultimately socially disadvantaged individual who was frustrated sexually/romantically with little ability to reflect on the reasons for this.Yeah, this is true. He was half-white, 'Eurasian', and seemed to identify himself with white privilege, wealth, materialism, while expressly hating himself for being biracial. That seemed to be a very deciding factor in all of this - he hated being half-Asian and looked down on non-whites, and that self-hatred seemed to fuel an anti-Asian violence that kicked off the whole rampage.
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I agree with both of you up to a point, but it looks to me as though some of you are using this discussion for your own agendas. Terms like 'white privilege' do nothing except alienate large sections of society. It's the same with the equally cringeworthy term 'rape culture'. Lots of people feel they deserve certain things - people of all races, classes and genders. Society as a whole needs to be looked at rather than this finger pointing that seems to be going on. Being from a wealthy background can certainly make people more out of touch with some of life's harsher realities but I don't necessarily think it makes most of them feel more entitled when it comes to romantic success. Rodger's mental health issues and society as a whole are the big picture.
Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.0 -
White privilege is a load of bullshit. Guy had serious mental issues.0
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Vito Corleone wrote: »White privilege is a load of bullshit. Guy had serious mental issues.
He wasn't white he was mixed race.0 -
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Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.
Statistically this isn't happening though.0 -
Vito Corleone wrote: »I know, which makes it even more ridiculous in this context.
George Zimmerman also wasn't white. Tough to tell from the media coverage. Not that it really matters, I don't think it's a racial thing0 -
Why is it so difficult for some people to admit we all have a collective responsibility, and that a lot of nastiness/dysfunction out there is from all sections of society? I'm not fond of this gender war that seems to be going on at the minute. I'm not saying this to be controversial, but there are a lot of angry young women who could very well follow in the footsteps of some of these men, and some of the feminist rhetoric isn't helping.
Because we can't fix this stuff if we don't come to grips with it at the root. It's not a question of gender war, the simple reality is, incidents like this are practically unheard of from young women. They're over-represented in the US, and they're over represented by young men of white extraction and a particular social strata.
Therefore, there has to be some differentiating factor between young American men, and say, old Venezuelan women, in play. There is no point pretending this is a universally presented crime.
It's not equally distributed between male and female, so it's not a "human" thing. It's not seen equally from country to country, so it's not biological or purely a function of mental illness. And it's not some racially inherent thing because you simply do not see young Irish guys doing stuff like this proportionately and they're as pasty as it gets. There is something in the commonalities between these figures which makes it easier for them to behave like this than it is for others.
IMHO, it's likely something in the socialisation of this particular recipe of person which greases the gears, but regardless, there's no point pretending Tina Turner is 100% as likely as a financially comfortable angry teenage/early 20 something boy to perpetrate a public mass murder.0 -
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Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men. Projection a gogo there. In any event trying to tease out what was going through this insane bastard's mind is going to be difficult, even with his reams of rants on the matter.jill_valentine wrote: »Again, yes there were plenty of other factors, and yes he hated everyone, but as you say, he focussed on women in particular. All I'm getting at is that looking at the intended victims would probably offer more insight than just looking at who he managed to actually kill. Once something like this actually starts happening, there's a large element of "opportunity targeting"
"Women" and men who "got them" were the focus of his insanity. People, normal people. People, especially men not like him. In his fúcked up mindset he was doing everything "right" as far as what he thought the template was. He wasn't ugly, he had money, he had connections, he had his beemer, he had brains, but women were going for as he saw it thugs and non white men and he couldn't even score a kiss.
If anything this insane rampage was as much about him raging against the society at large that he felt fed him BS and gave him a sense of entitlement. Not a good mix when you add in him being an insane weirdo.
I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.jill_valentine wrote: »They're over-represented in the US, and they're over represented by young men of white extraction and a particular social strata.
The guns are part of it sure and guns can cause more deaths a lot more easily even in the hands of an idiot, but Canada with a pretty similar amount of guns about the place doesn't suffer from this kinda rampage like the US does. Hell go back 60 years in the US when you could mail order a Tommie gun and it wasn't happening. There were more guns, more lax gun laws, in the same nation, yet mass killings like this simply weren't happening. So what has changed?
I dunno, I'd reckon it's too much comparative thinking. We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be, ideals we're told that we can all reach(which is bullshít), images of the rare really successful types and we're told we could be just like that(if you buy product A). The American dream gone wrong(and not just in America) This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al. It intensifies any weakness or perceived weakness in people. Not just in tragedies like this chump kicked off, but IMH a lot of depressive type mental illnesses are being triggered and ramped up by the same culture. Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men. Projection a gogo there. In any event trying to tease out what was going through this insane bastard's mind is going to be difficult, even with his reams of rants on the matter.
"Women" and men who "got them" were the focus of his insanity. People, normal people. People, especially men not like him. In his fúcked up mindset he was doing everything "right" as far as what he thought the template was. He wasn't ugly, he had money, he had connections, he had his beemer, he had brains, but women were going for as he saw it thugs and non white men and he couldn't even score a kiss.
If anything this insane rampage was as much about him raging against the society at large that he felt fed him BS and gave him a sense of entitlement. Not a good mix when you add in him being an insane weirdo.
I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.
The guns are part of it sure and guns can cause more deaths a lot more easily even in the hands of an idiot, but Canada with a pretty similar amount of guns about the place doesn't suffer from this kinda rampage like the US does. Hell go back 60 years in the US when you could mail order a Tommie gun and it wasn't happening. There were more guns, more lax gun laws, in the same nation, yet mass killings like this simply weren't happening. So what has changed?
I dunno, I'd reckon it's too much comparative thinking. We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be, ideals we're told that we can all reach(which is bullshít), images of the rare really successful types and we're told we could be just like that(if you buy product A). The American dream gone wrong(and not just in America) This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al. It intensifies any weakness or perceived weakness in people. Not just in tragedies like this chump kicked off, but IMH a lot of depressive type mental illnesses are being triggered and ramped up by the same culture. Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.
It's true America has an aspirational soul, and there is a tyranny of perfectionism at some level.
This guy may have had everything, but in context of his environment, he was pretty average. They all have bmws, lots of money and are beautiful in Santa Barbra [ I was struck when I watched the vdieo of the golden California sun shining across his face- he must have been aware of the chiarascuro. He was punching above his weight.
Americans have a sense of rights and entitlement that you will find nowhere else in the world, and for the most part I think that's a good thing, a nation of citizens and not of subjects, but when it crosses a line, it leads to violence.
Misogyny may have been a small part of it, but it's bigger than that, it articulates a wider alienation and narcissicm that has steeped through the culture, particularly on the younger generations.0 -
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I'd be with you there, it's most certainly a societal thing. As you say it tends to happen in a particular type and in a particular society far more than it does elsewhere. Yes there can be outliers like that insane prick in Norway a couple of years ago, but they are outliers. It's a regular thing in the US. It's the first country you think of when you hear of a gun rampage.
I respectfully disagree that the US is the worst country in the world for these gun rampages. The reason they are such big news is because of their relative rarity. When these massacres stop making the news, then it's time to worry. America's neighbour south of the border is host to a lot more extreme and wanton violence. I remember reading about an all-female Mexican town where most the males had been killed. RTE don't bother reporting this as it's an everyday occurrence.
Then you have our friends in the Middle East influenced by the "religion of peace". Children are indoctrinated since birth to die for Allah...it's noble to become a martyr as a suicide bomber. I won't say much more about these folk as some posters have a fit if their hobby horses in Pallywood are criticised. My point is there are many, many countries more violent than America.We're bombarded from birth with images of what we should be.... This bombardment has become intense in the last 30 years and really intense since the interwebs with Arsebook et al.... Take this idiot, he was on a few forums with others of a like mind. Blaming PUA types IIRC as well as women. This feeling of "support" enables some people. Makes them feel like they're right and others believe in them. Some might even ramp up the madness as a competition for attention. Dunno how a society can get that genie back into the bottle though.
Completely agree that internet fora facilitate these loners stay the way they are (if not become that way). Echo chambers on internet fora are dangerous things. You don't feel quite as insane when dozens of other loners confess that they're hopeless with women too and that they share the same anger because of it. You can become quickly detached from reality when the only other people you talk to are nutters too. This kid should have switched off the computer and joined a soccer team or something.0 -
Sure, but who did he target and kill first? His rants also show real hate for non white men.
I also thought it was interesting that he stabbed those guys to death. That's much more personal than shooting someone and takes a lot more rage.
I feel pretty certain he had a personality disorder, namely Narcissism. And I'm not talking about the way we sometimes throw that word around when describing self-involved people - I think this guy had a serious, full blown case of Narcissistic personality disorder. In some ways, that's more dangerous because a lot of mental disorders are chemical and can be medicated, but personality disorders aren't. The only treatment is therapy and very few narcissists believe they need it. This guy was in therapy and clearly it wasn't working because he couldn't fathom the possibility that he was the problem.
In that respect, he was always a ticking time bomb, unless he somehow ended up in a world that adored him the way he felt he deserved. And even at that, he was always going to be rejected by someone because we all are at some point. He just fixated this on sexual conquests - women - and the people who were getting what he could not - other men (especially minorities).
Women were the objects he couldn't have - and I emphasize objects, because it's clear he didn't see them as people - and other men were the reasons he couldn't have them. He felt rejected by women, but betrayed by men. That coupled with the fact that his roommates were Asian, and he was part Asian himself and clearly had difficulty accepting that, is why I think those killings were so much more personal and rage-filled. Those three guys represented betrayal and self-hatred.0 -
Just finished reading the manifesto. Quite staggering in so many ways. I suppose the main thing that sticks out is that if the story is completely truthful, the level of detail is quite astonishing. He must have had an unbelievable memory. Plus it appears that he was a fairly gifted writer in many ways so part of the tragedy is he had so much potential. With the connections he had I'm sure that he could have easily made something of himself, perhaps a scriptwriter or something like that. If he had thrown himself into something he was good at, sooner or later he was bound to start attracting girls, instead of pontificating about what a magnificent gentleman he was and how they should start forming a queue outside his door for the privilege of his time, or other such rubbish.
However, unfortunately this is all if-history now. What does strike me is that the divorce of his parents hit him quite hard. Now I don't want to go down the road of blaming this or them for what happened eventually, that would be completely uncalled for, but I think both of them (especially the mother) indulged him far too much, there are numerous examples in the manifesto where he was bought the latest video games, laptops, designer gear, he flew first class, went to private concerts, film premieres etc. Essentially he was used to getting his own way and he could not comprehend why he could not use money to pay for (or rather attract) a pretty blonde girl in the same way he could say a Hugo Boss shirt. This ultimately led to his immense frustration and refusal to do anything about it, instead believing himself to be perfect from birth, how women choose the wrong type of men, how other races are inferior to him etc etc. The stepmother ironically enough comes across as a fairly balanced individual throughout, seemingly being generally hard but fair when he was growing up, until very near the end, where she tells him that his little brother is going to grow up to be much more successful in both personal and professional endeavours. Now whether this was the result of a lot of frustration because of his odd behaviour, I don't know, but it seemed an incredibly heartless thing to say and may well have pushed him over the edge.
It is quite difficult to appreciate just how much his bitterness towards the opposite sex pushed him to commit such atrocities. Sure, I would imagine the vast majority of us have had times during our lives where we get a little depressed that the girls we like don't reciprocate our attention or prefer to date different guys, but generally this passes. Unfortunately for Elliot, like many things in life, the more successful you are at something, the more options you have and people must have been able to smell the desperation off him miles away. Imagine getting incredibly drunk and gatecrashing a party where you know no one and then he compounds matters by trying to push some girls off a ledge, which is obviously extremely dangerous, he himself was lucky to only suffer a broken leg. The whole thing just reeks of depression.
The bitterness and entitlement came across so strong in his writing, it would have been fairly obvious within a few minutes of speaking to him how close to the surface this was. In all honesty, I cannot really imagine any sane girl wanting to date him with that many hangups, even those who may be starved of options. He essentially came across as way too weird. Mind you, it was classic reaction formation in psychology, he absolutely hated women because deep down he wanted to be with a woman more than anything. He even hints at this several times before his total meltdown, how if even one girl had given him the time of day, he would have called the whole thing off. I'm not sure which is scarier here, the power that women had over him, or the fact that he took rejection so badly he wanted to kill several lives in the process.
Mind you, I read somewhere else, either here or on another forum that sex was surpisingly not actually his main fixation. He was more obsessed with power, being seen to be popular, having people thinking that because he had a pretty girlfriend he was seen as one of the desired people, that he could have sex with whoever he wanted.
A tragic tale really, hopefully some good can come out of it, perhaps if not to do with reducing the availability of guns, then making parents and teachers more aware of when an individual like this is liable to crack, through extra exposure to these problems or something similar.0 -
OnTheCouch wrote: »Just finished reading the manifesto. Quite staggering in so many ways. I suppose the main thing that sticks out is that if the story is completely truthful, the level of detail is quite astonishing. He must have had an unbelievable memory. Plus it appears that he was a fairly gifted writer in many ways so part of the tragedy is he had so much potential. With the connections he had I'm sure that he could have easily made something of himself, perhaps a scriptwriter or something like that. If he had thrown himself into something he was good at, sooner or later he was bound to start attracting girls, instead of pontificating about what a magnificent gentleman he was and how they should start forming a queue outside his door for the privilege of his time, or other such rubbish.
However, unfortunately this is all if-history now. What does strike me is that the divorce of his parents hit him quite hard. Now I don't want to go down the road of blaming this or them for what happened eventually, that would be completely uncalled for, but I think both of them (especially the mother) indulged him far too much, there are numerous examples in the manifesto where he was bought the latest video games, laptops, designer gear, he flew first class, went to private concerts, film premieres etc. Essentially he was used to getting his own way and he could not comprehend why he could not use money to pay for (or rather attract) a pretty blonde girl in the same way he could say a Hugo Boss shirt. This ultimately led to his immense frustration and refusal to do anything about it, instead believing himself to be perfect from birth, how women choose the wrong type of men, how other races are inferior to him etc etc. The stepmother ironically enough comes across as a fairly balanced individual throughout, seemingly being generally hard but fair when he was growing up, until very near the end, where she tells him that his little brother is going to grow up to be much more successful in both personal and professional endeavours. Now whether this was the result of a lot of frustration because of his odd behaviour, I don't know, but it seemed an incredibly heartless thing to say and may well have pushed him over the edge.
It is quite difficult to appreciate just how much his bitterness towards the opposite sex pushed him to commit such atrocities. Sure, I would imagine the vast majority of us have had times during our lives where we get a little depressed that the girls we like don't reciprocate our attention or prefer to date different guys, but generally this passes. Unfortunately for Elliot, like many things in life, the more successful you are at something, the more options you have and people must have been able to smell the desperation off him miles away. Imagine getting incredibly drunk and gatecrashing a party where you know no one and then he compounds matters by trying to push some girls off a ledge, which is obviously extremely dangerous, he himself was lucky to only suffer a broken leg. The whole thing just reeks of depression.
The bitterness and entitlement came across so strong in his writing, it would have been fairly obvious within a few minutes of speaking to him how close to the surface this was. In all honesty, I cannot really imagine any sane girl wanting to date him with that many hangups, even those who may be starved of options. He essentially came across as way too weird. Mind you, it was classic reaction formation in psychology, he absolutely hated women because deep down he wanted to be with a woman more than anything. He even hints at this several times before his total meltdown, how if even one girl had given him the time of day, he would have called the whole thing off. I'm not sure which is scarier here, the power that women had over him, or the fact that he took rejection so badly he wanted to kill several lives in the process.
Mind you, I read somewhere else, either here or on another forum that I don't think sex was his main priority. He was more obsessed with power, being seen to be popular, having people thinking that because he had a pretty girlfriend he was seen as one of the desired people, that he could have sex with whoever he wanted.
A tragic tale really, hopefully some good can come out of it, perhaps if not to do with reducing the availability of guns, then making parents and teachers more aware of when an individual like this is liable to crack, through extra exposure to these problems or something like that.
I read the entire thing on Sunday. The writing wasn't too bad, reminded me of Catcher in the Rye, a lot! The key in the story to me was the fact he said he had constantly been rejected...he wasn't rejected, he didn't approach girls. He felt by being around them, they should come up to him. He didn't have anything about him to suggest any woman would throw herself at him just on appearance. If it's true that he had Aspergers it would account for him not approaching women and also for him locking himself away, playing video games and being resentful of those who can socialize. Couple that with going through teenage hormones and not getting laid and into your early 20's without getting laid and having what seemed like a strong sexual drive. It seems like it all boiled over. He only wanted sex, everything else in his life was handed to him. He couldn't have sex (without resorting to a hooker) and didn't have the courage or social skills to even speak to women
Even in his last attempt to get a woman, that party that he got thrown off the ledge. He didn't approach any women. He bumped a guy out of the way that was talking to a woman because he felt an Asian man wasn't better than him and he should get white women easier, with him being a EurAsian...He didn't have a sense of entitlement just because he was a guy. He also sat on the ledge beside a group of guys and girls, expecting them to invite him into their group. He believed guys who had less to offer than him, got women with ease. He was driving to Arizona to buy lottery tickets because he believed he needed wealth to get women...that's a pretty unique to America thing...in Ireland you might think if you want to get models or celebrity women you need to have money because that's who they go for...or at least that's what you see in the media. But in the US, many women go for money.
Also from what one of his consellors was saying to him, if you believe him (which I do because he was going to his death and it seemed like a very honest account..he portrayed himself as a loser) that community he was in may have had women who were materialistic or out for big muscular guys. It's even something I've heard many times about specifically women in Southern California...so, that's not a gender thing I'm getting at or that his counselor was getting at, but a geographic thing0 -
Your not comparing like with like though.Maid of the Mist wrote: »I respectfully disagree that the US is the worst country in the world for these gun rampages. The reason they are such big news is because of their relative rarity. When these massacres stop making the news, then it's time to worry. America's neighbour south of the border is host to a lot more extreme and wanton violence. I remember reading about an all-female Mexican town where most the males had been killed. RTE don't bother reporting this as it's an everyday occurrence.
Then you have our friends in the Middle East influenced by the "religion of peace". Children are indoctrinated since birth to die for Allah...it's noble to become a martyr as a suicide bomber. I won't say much more about these folk as some posters have a fit if their hobby horses in Pallywood are criticised. My point is there are many, many countries more violent than America.
Completely agree that internet fora facilitate these loners stay the way they are (if not become that way). Echo chambers on internet fora are dangerous things. You don't feel quite as insane when dozens of other loners confess that they're hopeless with women too and that they share the same anger because of it. You can become quickly detached from reality when the only other people you talk to are nutters too. This kid should have switched off the computer and joined a soccer team or something.
Its rare if unheard of in the countries you mention, for a young man from a village or town, in a peaceful area, to go crazy and kill at random in schools or shops.
America brings its kids up in a dog eat dog world this is the result.0 -
Vito Corleone wrote: »I actually had an argument about Zimmerman's trial (I believe he was innocent) with a friend of mine, and when I asked what race he was my friend replied "white". The mind boggles.
Unless something has changed on the Irish form since the last time I filled one out, he'd be qualified as "white/Caucasian." "Hispanic" seems to be more an American thing, and US forms often distinguish between "white" and "white (Hispanic)"
This is weeds, however.0
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8rMYyegT5Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nfYlJXHs27U
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