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Greece ?????????

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    #62
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    4leto wrote: »
    As for how we got here, that's irrelevant really, personally how did I accrue my debts, that doesn't really matter all I know is I have to pay them. Its the same with Ireland.
    Are you serious? No really? Christ no wonder we're bending over if people can't play spot the difference, nor understand relevance.

    OK, let me ask you this 4leto; if you build up a debt you will pay it off and that's great, but would you be willing to pay the larger debts of a neighbour down the street? Would you be willing to pay off the huge debts of a gambler that was a stranger to you? If you walked into your bank expecting to pay off your car loan debt say, only to find it the price of a house mortgage, would you just pay it? Of course you wouldn't, these would be the actions of a fool, yet that is precisely what every man woman and soon their children are and will be doing for at least a generation. That's best case scenario.

    That singular action of Lenihan and his cronies to guarantee foreign and domestic speculators to the delight of same* was among the most scabrous, stupid and damn near treasonous mistake in the short history of this state.










    *no doubt the usual bleats of "oh but the IMF and bankers thought this was a good idea" will be heard soon. What would you expect them to say? Turkeys aint gonna vote for Xmas

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #63
    4leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    I know what FF in general did was stupid beyond words and also NAMA was another almighty F/up, but it was done, we are here, we can't reverse it and we can't stick 2 fingers up and say we are not going to pay it back. So how we got here IS one for the history books.

    Besides apart from our bank debts we are still running a massive deficit so a lot of our borrowing is paying for our social debt as well to the tune of 20 billion a year. That's nearly 500 million a week.

    So my point still stands we are in no position to judge Greece.


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    #64
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    4leto wrote: »
    I know what FF in general did was stupid beyond words and also NAMA was another almighty F/up, but it was done, we are here, we can't reverse it and we can't stick 2 fingers up and say we are not going to pay it back.
    Actually we still could default on those NAMA/Speculator debts and tell them to get bent, or re negotiate. Lenihans glorious fcukup/bank bailout means we will default, it's a question of when. We're nowhere near out of the default woods yet for all the happy spin being put on it. We can't pay off this debt. I'll put my own money on that bet(like a load of vultures in the financial world already have). So why keep putting good money after bad on a debt we're highly unlikely to cover? An orderly restructuring of the debts, while scraping off the silly debts of gamblers would work. It will be a hard for a time for this country, but mark me know, it's gonna be hard anyway, if not much worse. We're facing as a world a lot of changes on the economic front. If we do a structured default now it's my fervent view we'll avoid a much harder full default down the line.

    So my point still stands we are in no position to judge Greece.
    If you can't see the differences between the two countries fiscal policies and those of it's peoples since joining the Euro(and before. Greece lied to join), then...

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #65
    4leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Actually we still could default on those NAMA/Speculator debts and tell them to get bent, or re negotiate. Lenihans glorious fcukup/bank bailout means we will default, it's a question of when. We're nowhere near out of the default woods yet for all the happy spin being put on it. We can't pay off this debt. I'll put my own money on that bet(like a load of vultures in the financial world already have). So why keep putting good money after bad on a debt we're highly unlikely to cover? An orderly restructuring of the debts, while scraping off the silly debts of gamblers would work. It will be a hard for a time for this country, but mark me know, it's gonna be hard anyway, if not much worse. We're facing as a world a lot of changes on the economic front. If we do a structured default now it's my fervent view we'll avoid a much harder full default down the line.


    If you can't see the differences between the two countries fiscal policies and those of it's peoples since joining the Euro(and before. Greece lied to join), then...

    I absolutely agree I was actually going to put it in dark ink we will default just like Greece will. So I was looking at another thread about a disabled kid getting an entitlement scrapped, I am afraid over the next few years there is going to be a lot more stories like that.

    The bankers basically lied that was the whole crux of why stupid Lenihan made that decision, "HA" he believed them.

    But if the government cutback hard in the next budget and our growth rates continues to be as good, we may get through this upcoming crisis. I sometimes think we are in a kind of phony war, just likes Britain in 39, I think the IMF will start imposing their will on us soon. I think they are staying out because we are still digging into the pension reserve fund (our pension reserve fund for our pensions), when that is gone, we are in for it.


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    #66
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    Wibbs wrote: »
    damn near treasonous


    It is/was treason. How anyone can come to another conclusion is beyond my comprehension. Many politicians and civil servants should be in jail over this.

    4leto wrote: »

    The bankers basically lied that was the whole crux of why stupid Lenihan made that decision, "HA" he believed them.


    Groundless. All of this guffawing over Lenihan makes me sick. This is the worst possible outcome for the state and it's all his and the previous administrations fault.


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    #67
    Wibbs
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,092 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    squod wrote: »
    It is/was treason. How anyone can come to another conclusion is beyond my comprehension. Many politicians and civil servants should be in jail over this.
    I agree 100%. But unless we as a nation and people pull our finger out it's never going to happen. I'd add bankers to that mix of criminals.
    4leto wrote: »
    I absolutely agree I was actually going to put it in dark ink we will default just like Greece will. So I was looking at another thread about a disabled kid getting an entitlement scrapped, I am afraid over the next few years there is going to be a lot more stories like that.
    Agreed.
    The bankers basically lied that was the whole crux of why stupid Lenihan made that decision, "HA" he believed them.
    IMHO he was more complicit than that. That's my opinion of course but I'd stand by it. It was as much about protecting the regulars at the FF tent at the Galway races, mixed in with blind panic and pure ignorance and lack of innovative thinking, with a large side order of listening to the very people who had built the foundations of the oncoming storm.
    But if the government cutback hard in the next budget and our growth rates continues to be as good, we may get through this upcoming crisis.
    I really doubt it TBH. The figures are simply too large, the international financial confidence in us is shaky and the same people who brought this shíte on us(and the western world) are betting on us going around the U bend. When a financial market environment exists were it's possible, encouraged, nay makes financial sense to bet against an otherwise recoverable situation it's inevitable such an entity being bet against will fail. The ones placing the bets are taking the bets and stand to win either way.
    I sometimes think we are in a kind of phony war, just likes Britain in 39, I think the IMF will start imposing their will on us soon. I think they are staying out because we are still digging into the pension reserve fund (our pension reserve fund for our pensions), when that is gone, we are in for it.
    Oh I agree and like your comparison to the phoney war. It's pretty accurate IMHO. People are in a false sense of security now. Well those who are making payments at the moment. The large mass of the "ah we're just about alright" folks. The "oh god I've just about made my loan payments in the last six months but was late with 3 of them" folks are going to get company soon. I know a fair few of the latter. People who didn't go exactly mad in the "boom" either. Just got married, had kids and bought a massively overvalued house. At the time I was questioning this loudly, but B) I'm a cheapskate, who hates owing banks and only buys what I do for cash, otherwise do without B) I don't have a family to house and support and C) hindsight is 20/20. So no prophet was I. But even for me who owes nothing and owns everything I have outright can see the shíte hitting the fan more than it has so far. It's very worrying.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



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    #68
    4leto
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,940 ✭✭✭4leto


    Wibbs wrote: »
    I agree 100%. But unless we as a nation and people pull our finger out it's never going to happen. I'd add bankers to that mix of criminals.

    Agreed.

    IMHO he was more complicit than that. That's my opinion of course but I'd stand by it. It was as much about protecting the regulars at the FF tent at the Galway races, mixed in with blind panic and pure ignorance and lack of innovative thinking, with a large side order of listening to the very people who had built the foundations of the oncoming storm.

    I really doubt it TBH. The figures are simply too large, the international financial confidence in us is shaky and the same people who brought this shíte on us(and the western world) are betting on us going around the U bend. When a financial market environment exists were it's possible, encouraged, nay makes financial sense to bet against an otherwise recoverable situation it's inevitable such an entity being bet against will fail. The ones placing the bets are taking the bets and stand to win either way. Oh I agree and like your comparison to the phoney war. It's pretty accurate IMHO. People are in a false sense of security now. Well those who are making payments at the moment. The large mass of the "ah we're just about alright" folks. The "oh god I've just about made my loan payments in the last six months but was late with 3 of them" folks are going to get company soon. I know a fair few of the latter. People who didn't go exactly mad in the "boom" either. Just got married, had kids and bought a massively overvalued house. At the time I was questioning this loudly, but B) I'm a cheapskate, who hates owing banks and only buys what I do for cash, otherwise do without B) I don't have a family to house and support and C) hindsight is 20/20. So no prophet was I. But even for me who owes nothing and owns everything I have outright can see the shíte hitting the fan more than it has so far. It's very worrying.

    Yes a very good assessment, I am been a tad to optimistic that we can maintain a 2% growth rate when our spending power is constantly being eroding and Europe and America are both in danger of going into the feared double dip recession.

    So unfortunately I agree with you, the ****e is going to hit the pan probably as soon as next year.

    But I do like to think Lenihan was just a thick, for him to have been complicit would have been morally incomprehensible. But he was probably over influenced by his "friends" so I suppose that was a complicity.


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    #69
    amacca
    Registered Users Posts: 6,780 ✭✭✭amacca


    niallsparky wrote: »
    Why do you have so many question marks in your thread title OP when you haven't even asked a question?

    perhaps it was wishful thinking????????????

    maybe he/she aspires to ask a question one day???????????????????????


    ????????????????


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    #70
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    4leto wrote: »
    Yes a very good assessment, I am been a tad to optimistic that we can maintain a 2% growth rate when our spending power is constantly being eroding and Europe and America are both in danger of going into the feared double dip recession.

    So unfortunately I agree with you, the ****e is going to hit the pan probably as soon as next year.

    But I do like to think Lenihan was just a thick, for him to have been complicit would have been morally incomprehensible. But he was probably over influenced by his "friends" so I suppose that was a complicity.

    Lenihan spent tens of millions on advice, ignored all of it and ran the place into the ground. No excuses for the man.


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