DART+ (DART Expansion)

Grandeeod · 19-12-2014 11:37pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

At least the levy for the Green Line extension (to Cherrywood) was actually eventually spent to build the extension.

I wonder is the cash collected for other projects on a very long finger (Metro West for example) being protected?

Im not entirely sure that Cherrywood got the money from the developers.

Tom Manning...RPA.

However, Tom Manning of the Railway Procurement Agency said the property developers' difficulties had not affected the line's development.

"There is a 30-year timeframe for the State to recoup the money, so that could be as many as three or more economic cycles," he said.

Grandeeod · 19-12-2014 11:45pm

From 2012 in relation the the Cherrywood luas.

An estimated €150 million of the €300 million cost of the Luas Cherrywood extension was to be funded by development levies but much of this has yet to be paid for reasons generally associated with the downturn.

Source.

http://irishplanningnews.ie/planning-levies-expected-to-be-reduced/

Aard · 20-12-2014 12:08am

murphaph wrote: »

MW has one for sure.

Yep with Fingal and South Dublin. Given that DU is far more likely to go ahead than MW, I'm surprised the city council didn't draw up a development contribution scheme for it.

Schadenfreudia · 20-12-2014 11:07am

An estimated €150 million of the €300 million cost of the Luas Cherrywood extension was to be funded by development levies but much of this has yet to be paid for reasons generally associated with the downturn.

I assume that means that whatever was collected went towards the extension??

All very opaque, isn't it?

AngryLips · 12-01-2015 2:38pm

Possible plans to extend Dart further north as part of DU project

Telchak · 12-01-2015 3:00pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Possible plans to extend Dart further north as part of DU project

This isn't news, it's been planned for years. I recall news stories and drawings within a year or two of Transport 21's announcement of the possibility of going as far as Drogheda.

AngryLips · 06-02-2015 1:16pm

Looking beyond DU - could we see the underused Phoenix Park Tunnel alignment becoming a possible future Luas line once Dart Underground is built?

Telchak · 06-02-2015 1:26pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Looking beyond DU - could we see the underused Phoenix Park Tunnel alignment becoming a possible future Luas line once Dart Underground is built?

As part of what route? Doesn't seem to be any obvious one suited to light rail.

GerardKeating · 06-02-2015 1:36pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Looking beyond DU - could we see the underused Phoenix Park Tunnel alignment becoming a possible future Luas line once Dart Underground is built?

Doubt it, it is still in active daily use.

Schadenfreudia · 06-02-2015 1:54pm

Is the tunnel single track?

AngryLips · 06-02-2015 2:25pm

Telchak wrote: »

As part of what route? Doesn't seem to be any obvious one suited to light rail.

Well given that every single disused alignment into the city is currently Luas (Green Line) or about to be (BXD), I'm sure that they'll come up with some way of getting better utility from this section. Doesn't one of the crayon plans for Fingal include a service from Heuston northwards?

GerardKeating wrote: »

Doubt it, it is still in active daily use.

There is plenty of space on that alignment, they could reduce IR from two tracks down to one and potentially have plenty of space leftover for Luas.

L1011 · 06-02-2015 4:58pm

Should be possible to gauntlet the two gauges through if needed

Sam Russell · 06-02-2015 5:38pm

In my view, it was one of the daftest decisions that the Luas project made was to go with the UK gauge rather than the Irish one.

A similar mistake is going to be made with the BRT design if they go with bendy buses.

L1011 · 06-02-2015 5:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

In my view, it was one of the daftest decisions that the Luas project made was to go with the UK gauge rather than the Irish one.

A similar mistake is going to be made with the BRT design if they go with bendy buses.

Ancient mythology is that it was done on purpose to stop Irish Rail getting their hands on it. It has reduced rolling stock costs too but had definitely cost in flexibility.

With Harcourt St. Station mostly empty since Pod closed we could have been looking at a proper reopening of the Harcourt line if it was 1600mm.

Grandeeod · 06-02-2015 6:39pm

L1011 wrote: »

Ancient mythology is that it was done on purpose to stop Irish Rail getting their hands on it. It has reduced rolling stock costs too but had definitely cost in flexibility.

With Harcourt St. Station mostly empty since Pod closed we could have been looking at a proper reopening of the Harcourt line if it was 1600mm.

I don't believe that ancient mythology had anything to do with the guage. First of all, it was CIE that started the project in the first place through their Light rail office back in the mid 90s. The were removed from the project when the RPA was created in 2001 through an ammendment of the Transport Act. The guage is the international standard and was always going to be. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest the luas guage was ever going to be 1600mm and nor should it have ever been.

As for Harcourt St Station, it was never a runner to reopen and would not have provided a better service than the current luas line.

GerardKeating · 06-02-2015 6:58pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Is the tunnel single track?

Twin Track

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3018/3096683272_968f1ab6b9.jpg

http://www.hidden-dublin.com/images/rail/Resources/phoenixparktunne.jpeg

http://www.google.com/url?sa=i&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=images&cd=&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CAcQjRw&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hidden-dublin.com%2Fimages%2Frail%2Frail018.html&ei=igDVVL6UJ_T37Abo_oCAAQ&bvm=bv.85464276,d.ZGU&psig=AFQjCNFYxD166_cppAJGuJsnxd1xhViozw&ust=1423331735529316

Grandeeod · 06-02-2015 7:19pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Looking beyond DU - could we see the underused Phoenix Park Tunnel alignment becoming a possible future Luas line once Dart Underground is built?

Even in post DU world, I think the PPT route should be retained as a heavy rail alignment.

Markcheese · 06-02-2015 8:26pm

Daft question and probably done to death but was there much advantage or saving in going for the slightly narrower gauge ?

Sam Russell · 06-02-2015 8:49pm

Even the old Victorian trams were the 1.6m gauge. It made no sense and probably saved very little - given the saving only applied to the rolling stock. It is the same rail, only slightly further apart.

Think of the benefit to tourism if we had a few geriatric trams running from Amien St (Connolly) to Kings Bridge (Heuston)? Other countries do this. London still run a few RouteMaster buses on heritage routes.

D.L.R. · 06-02-2015 9:27pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Even the old Victorian trams were the 1.6m gauge. It made no sense and probably saved very little - given the saving only applied to the rolling stock. It is the same rail, only slightly further apart.

Think of the benefit to tourism if we had a few geriatric trams running from Amien St (Connolly) to Kings Bridge (Heuston)? Other countries do this. London still run a few RouteMaster buses on heritage routes.

I think the problem with that idea is more to do with lack of enterprise, than gauge.

SeanW · 06-02-2015 9:56pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Daft question and probably done to death but was there much advantage or saving in going for the slightly narrower gauge ?

Probably made it easier to get "off the shelf" (i.e. less customised) trams from Europe.

Sam Russell · 06-02-2015 10:02pm

SeanW wrote: »

Probably made it easier to get "off the shelf" (i.e. less customised) trams from Europe.

Again, it only saved on the trams themselves, not any of the infrastructure.

Sam Russell · 06-02-2015 10:04pm

Could DU be built using a single bore tunnel something like those used for the Dublin Port Tunnel? It should be a lot cheaper, and a lot of the London Underground uses this type of tunnel.

afatbollix · 06-02-2015 10:08pm

Only the older tunnels are single bore. The standard is twin bore now for safety.

Grandeeod · 06-02-2015 10:18pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Again, it only saved on the trams themselves, not any of the infrastructure.

Trams were part of the "infrastructure". What is your point regarding building luas to a 1600mm gauge?

murphaph · 06-02-2015 10:29pm

Standard gauge for Luas was absolutely the right decision. Being able to buy off the shelf makes a huge difference to your bargaining power.

markpb · 06-02-2015 11:19pm

Markcheese wrote: »

Daft question and probably done to death but was there much advantage or saving in going for the slightly narrower gauge ?

The question should be the other way round - what advantage would there have been in building to the less-common Irish standard? You can't mix trains and trams on the same line (for safety) so none of the existing rail stock could use it anyway. If you ever wanted to convert it to train operation, you'd need to change the power and signalling which would be expensive. And, even then, no-one in their right mind (except Los Angeles in the 90s) would run heavy rail on-street.

So, given that we're never going to run Irish trains on it, why build it to an Irish train standard?

LeinsterDub · 06-02-2015 11:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Even the old Victorian trams were the 1.6m gauge. It made no sense and probably saved very little - given the saving only applied to the rolling stock. It is the same rail, only slightly further apart.

Think of the benefit to tourism if we had a few geriatric trams running from Amien St (Connolly) to Kings Bridge (Heuston)? Other countries do this. London still run a few RouteMaster buses on heritage routes.

And would they only be single decker trams (were there single decker trams) or would we all raising the cabling height too? Would we be happy delaying the actual trams behind the heritage trams for sake of a few tourist?

Sam Russell · 06-02-2015 11:47pm

I for one would not travel on the open top deck sitting a short distance from the overhead power line. Maybe we could make some look-a-like old trams - the way 'old vintage' wedding cars are done (based on Ford Granada parts).

Maybe I mean trams that look old but are not.

strassenwo!f · 07-03-2015 12:48am

We'd better give this a bump, because this thread is about to fall off the front page of the forum.

Let's try this:

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

Grandeeod · 07-03-2015 1:52am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

We'd better give this a bump, because this thread is about to fall off the front page of the forum.

Let's try this:

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

They are not to hot on it financially and I fear they would support opposition to it in the East Wall area on the basis of disruption and consultation.

murphaph · 07-03-2015 7:37am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

Wherever gets them the most votes, just like the rest.

The Dark Knight · 07-03-2015 8:57am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I see SF are having their conference this weekend. Where are they on the interconnector project?

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

salmocab · 07-03-2015 12:48pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

Bit OTT there with the shinners the Irish soccer team are dirt I doubt even the shinners would make that call

Schadenfreudia · 07-03-2015 3:19pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

I doubt they'll promise any of those things in their manifesto - they aren't the Labour Party.

Oasis_Dublin · 07-03-2015 3:53pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

That really sounds like a Fianna Fáil manifesto from the middle of the last decade!

Deedsie · 09-03-2015 8:10pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

The only party that have not had the option to break their election promises and I haven't heard much of what they say to be that bad?

The status quo parties have done a great job with our economy, envy of the world it is. They same parties that have overseen our pathetic infrastructure development.

Victor · 09-03-2015 8:20pm

The Dark Knight wrote: »

I'd say their official manifesto will have it and another 5 underground lines in place by end 2016 + and additional 12 Luas lines in place by Q2-17.
They'll do all this with no interruption to traffic, ending the water charges, reducing income tax to 10% and paying back all the property charge (including paying everybody 20% interest on that)

Of course all this will be financed by the top 10 richest people in Ireland and those evil multinationals!

Vote SF..... They'll give you the sun, the moon and the stars!!
(and guarantee World Cup wins for Irish Rugby AND Soccer Teams)

Let's not go there.

Moderator

The Dark Knight · 11-03-2015 11:21pm

Deedsie wrote: »

The only party that have not had the option to break their election promises and I haven't heard much of what they say to be that bad?

The status quo parties have done a great job with our economy, envy of the world it is. They same parties that have overseen our pathetic infrastructure development.

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Schadenfreudia · 12-03-2015 10:01am

The Dark Knight wrote: »

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Well, as this appears to be morphing into an anti-SF/left thread I might say that in the circumstances the parties that brought the State to economic catastrophe, FF/FG/Labour, and their allies in the media (which cheered both the property bubble and the Bankster bail-outs) are clearly in a state of panic.

The endless dredging of bogs for bodies having utterly failed to move SF in the polls, the "Jobstown Kidnap" by the "Left" having equally failed to dent the support for independents they are now going to roll out victims of abuse on the lines of the Maria Cahill road-show.

Frankly, it is now obvious that 50% of the population are on to the rotten Establishment-in-panic and no amount of re-cycled propaganda will work on them. How can anybody even think of voting for those traitors and criminals in FF/FG/Labour?

Let's hope that gets to 55% by the next election.

Apologies for going off-topic.

Zebra3 · 12-03-2015 10:39am

The Dark Knight wrote: »

And I hope they never have a chance to break election promises.

I'm totally disillusioned with the Irish political establishment. I don't know who I'll vote for in next election, but I do know the luney left and the shinners are definitely not the answer.
Just look at their record this week alone:
1. N. Ireland assembly in crises again as mammy London government is parachuted in again.
2. More allocations of kangaroo courts by very brave man from louth.

How can anybody even think of voting for these criminals.

Apologies for going off-topic.
Maybe mods can move last few posts to politics section?

Don't forget about the ring wing parties who colluded with the Catholic Church in running their slave labour camps, turned a blind eye to their paedophile rings and still to this day refuse to prosecute members of those rings who facilitated child rapists and moved the rapistsaround the country so as to keep them free with a fresh set of victims.

Van.Bosch · 12-03-2015 11:21am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

The endless dredging of bogs for bodies having utterly failed to move SF in the polls, the "Jobstown Kidnap" by the "Left" having equally failed to dent the support for independents they are now going to roll out victims of abuse on the lines of the Maria Cahill road-show.

Apologies for going off-topic.

Wow

Aard · 12-03-2015 11:39am

Back on topic everybody.

No more warnings. You know where the Politics forum is.

- Mod.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 3:13pm

Apologies if this is a stupid question, but is this a case of the project being shovel ready and just waiting for the cheque signature or if there was financial approval would there still be countless more legal and planning hoops to jump through?

From their site:

A Railway Order for the DART Underground was made by An Bord Pleanála on 15th December 2011. The full decision is available from An Bord Pleanála's website. A judicial review of An Bord Pleanála's decision was concluded by the High Court on 25th March 2014, at which time the Railway Order became effective.

Is that the planning permission side sorted? Irish planning laws confuse me..

Aard · 11-06-2015 3:22pm

Essentially yes, it is a funding issue.

If you want to get really "planning-y" you could also say that we are still waiting for the Minister for Transport to sign the GDA Transport Strategy.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 3:37pm

Interesting, could be a nice election sweetner.
With all the plans about the pedestrianised layout at college green I'm sure it has occured to them that they're going to have to take knock quite a few cars off the road which strenghtens the case. We might yet see a holistic approach to Dublin's problems. The cynic in me fears otherwise however...

1huge1 · 11-06-2015 6:28pm

Well according to the Frequently asked questions section of the report released yesterday showing how the aim to remove so many cars out of the city centre.

http://dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/FINALFINALFAQS.pdf

Does the study propose underground rail?
It is unlikely that current proposals for underground rail facilities will become operational during the
period of the Study (2015-2023)

I can't believe I went to the bother of reading through that

I am officially a nerd

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 7:55pm

So my cynicism was warranted..

This city is destined to be second rate as long as we have such a hamstrung, divided approach to fixing problems.

Grandeeod · 11-06-2015 8:13pm

hardy_buck wrote: »

So my cynicism was warranted..

This city is destined to be second rate as long as we have such a hamstrung, divided approach to fixing problems.

In terms of public transport, the country in general, not just Dublin.

hardy_buck · 11-06-2015 8:25pm

Unfortunately so Grandeeod...

IMO it's the way this country is set up politically, it's bottom up as opposed top down which as a result favours localism and parish pump politics rather than holistically planned approaches.

The only solution to Dublin's issues as far as I can see would be to opt for a London style system where a mayor with actual powers was held accountable for the operation of an integrated transport system. I can safely say that this won't happen in my lifetime though!

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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