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Tractors and machinery on the road

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Comments

  • #52
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    BrianD wrote:
    I have seen R roads where there is central markings but the lanes aren't wide enough for HGV's.
    Really? I haven't seen any R roads where HGVs are constantly over the white line. Sometimes there will be the odd hairpin bend or narrow bridge where a long artic has no choice but to cross over the centre marking. In these cases they should yield to oncoming traffic. Truck drivers are generally aware of the extra resonsibility that comes with driving a large heavy vehcile
    Though common sense would dictate that you yield to the larger vehicle.
    Common sense would also dictate that a 16 year old whose only practical training is daddy showing him how to drive in a field is not allowed out on public roads in a 3.49 metre wide combine harvester without an escort and without any roadworthiness checks
    It's taken as read in other countries that you will encounter vehicles that may be wider than the traffic lane, so why not here?
    Taken as read? i've had a look in the UK Highway code (a more comprehensive document than our ROTR) and there is nothing about vehicles being over lane widths


  • #53
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    BrianD3 wrote:
    Well I don't know where you are driving but where I live and drive I see many 70s and early 80s tractors on the roads every day.

    Tractors in the Dublin area tend to be much newer and better equipped than in more rural counties. This is probably due to higher incomes, the preference for tillage instead of livestock farming and the necessary use of tractors on much busier roads. I agree that there are still many 1970s tractors such as the MF 135/165 in operation in rural Ireland. You won't see too many 8000 series John Deeres 'down the country' but they are quite common in the Dublin area.
    PS I have seen two open tractors without roll over protection being driven on the road recently, although I agree with the earlier point that this is fairly uncommon.

    It's quite common in North County Dublin especially in the Rush area. The Gardaí seem to turn a blind eye to it when driven on public roads. The reason that they are without a roll bar is to gain access to glass houses although they should be equipped with the fold-down types. A dealer in this area sells cabless Universals specifically for that purpose.


    Who is at fault if an oncoming vehicle collides with say a combine harvester which is overlapping a continuous white line but isn't wide enough to require an escort. Surely it should be the combine driver who takes all or the majority of the blame.

    It's a debateable point. I personally would prefer an escort if I was driving an extra wide vehicle on bendy roads.. Some combine operators move very early in the morning but I think that this can be even more dangerous as other motorists may assume that the roads are quiet.

    Re: going over continous white lines. I frequently have to do this on narrow roads. Even when the road is just wide enough it is necessary to move out to avoid striking pedestrians on the footpath with the truck's/buse's side mirrors. I know one road in the Dublin area that has a continous white line even though it is only 10 feet wide.


  • #54
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    BrianD3 wrote:
    Really? I haven't seen any R roads where HGVs are constantly over the white line. Sometimes there will be the odd hairpin bend or narrow bridge where a long artic has no choice but to cross over the centre marking. In these cases they should yield to oncoming traffic. Truck drivers are generally aware of the extra resonsibility that comes with driving a large heavy vehcile

    Common sense would also dictate that a 16 year old whose only practical training is daddy showing him how to drive in a field is not allowed out on public roads in a 3.49 metre wide combine harvester without an escort and without any roadworthiness checks

    Taken as read? i've had a look in the UK Highway code (a more comprehensive document than our ROTR) and there is nothing about vehicles being over lane widths

    I think you need to take a reality check...sooner rather than later!

    A truck driven on many R roads in Ireland would protude over the centre line (if the road has one). They would be occupy sufficientlly enough road space that a normal driver would slow and prepare to move left if possible.

    While in theory a 16 year old can drive a tractor, its hardly significant. So you are trying to tell us that the entire agricultural fleet in Ireland is driven by 16 year olds?? In reality, they are more likely to be driven by somebody who got a license through an amnesty (or by simply applying for a provisional licence) just like a large chunk of other "legal" road users. You also make assumptions about road worthiness. How many motorists check their cars before leaving their homes? How many truck drivers check their vehicles? Most of these large farm machines are designed and engineered to the highest standards. Furthermore, they are industrial machines and if they break down the owner is at a loss. Plus they are covered by warranties and factory back up. All pointing to greater maintinance than the average road vehicle.

    You are sweeping in your assumption that truck drivers are more responsible than farm drivers. I beg to differ, how many times have you seen trucks speeding, the hazards blinking because the trailer lights are malfunctioning, illagal lighting mounted on the top of the cab. Infact a measure of the indifference of truck drivers is that you will see them driving around our cities for absolutely no good reason other than they can.
    Taken as read? i've had a look in the UK Highway code (a more comprehensive document than our ROTR) and there is nothing about vehicles being over lane widths

    I suggest you have another gander. I have seen it specifically referred to in US codes and in fact there is a detailed section in the Northern Ireland equivalent. Leaving that aside, you mean that in your driving experience and the little bit of education that we all get that you would not expect to meet a vehicle over the central median by virtue of its width??


  • #55
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    You say I need a reality check? Lets see.
    BrianD wrote:
    A truck driven on many R roads in Ireland would protude over the centre line (if the road has one). They would be occupy sufficientlly enough road space that a normal driver would slow and prepare to move left if possible.
    Name one of these many R-roads. Also name an R-road that has no centre line. I now believe you are confusing regional roads with county roads. How much do you drive "down the country" BrianD? Do you even drive at all?
    While in theory a 16 year old can drive a tractor, its hardly significant. So you are trying to tell us that the entire agricultural fleet in Ireland is driven by 16 year olds?? In reality, they are more likely to be driven by somebody who got a license through an amnesty (or by simply applying for a provisional licence) just like a large chunk of other "legal" road users.
    What happened in the past with licences being handed out was a disgrace. I agree that there are many drivers going around driving all sorts of vehicles without having done proper training and provisional drivers driving around etc. The difference with tractor licences even in this day and age 16 year olds can and DO get licences to drive a large tractor plus two trailers totalling 22 metres on a public road with no training apart from a theory test. And it is 100% legal. Contrast that with what you need to do to get a artic lorry licence. First of all you need to be at least 18 and have already passed your car test. Then you have to pass your C (rigid) test. Only then can you apply for your provisional EC licence. Bit of a difference eh? Do tractor drivers even have to do a medical?
    You also make assumptions about road worthiness.
    I'm not making any assumptions I'm telling you what I'm seeing with my own eyes. Many tractors in bits and with no indicators. I'm also stating facts about how tractors don't have to do a DOE test unlike trucks.
    How many motorists check their cars before leaving their homes? How many truck drivers check their vehicles?
    Most truck drivers that I know do check their vehicles actually. I don't know about car drivers but I do know that trucks are obliged to do a DOE test and cars an NCT. So there are at least some checks on their roadworthiness.
    Most of these large farm machines are designed and engineered to the highest standards.
    Are they designed and engineered with pulling low loaders long distances on public roads in mind. Because that's what many of them are being used for.
    Furthermore, they are industrial machines and if they break down the owner is at a loss. Plus they are covered by warranties and factory back up. All pointing to greater maintinance than the average road vehicle.
    As I've told you already there are many tractors on the roads that are 20 or more years old. Are these being well maintained and under warranty and factory back up. What age is the average tractor on Irish roads compared to the average car or truck?
    Infact a measure of the indifference of truck drivers is that you will see them driving around our cities for absolutely no good reason other than they can.
    What do you mean by "no good reason"? Do you know truck drivers who drive around the city wasting diesel "for fun" or something. i'm afraid you're deluded if you think that. If you are seeing trucks in the city of course there is a good reason for it. Deliveries, taking shortcuts to save time and money etc. If they're doing anything illegal by this then it's up to the Gardai to prosecute them.
    I suggest you have another gander. I have seen it specifically referred to in US codes and in fact there is a detailed section in the Northern Ireland equivalent. Leaving that aside, you mean that in your driving experience and the little bit of education that we all get that you would not expect to meet a vehicle over the central median by virtue of its width??
    Have you got a link to that? As for the 2nd question no I would not normally expect to meet a vehicle on the wrong side of the centre line on a regional or national route. And if I did I would expect it to yield rather than try to force me into a ditch.


  • #56
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    BrianD3 wrote:
    You say I need a reality check? Lets see.

    Name one of these many R-roads. Also name an R-road that has no centre line. I now believe you are confusing regional roads with county roads. How much do you drive "down the country" BrianD? Do you even drive at all?

    What happened in the past with licences being handed out was a disgrace. I agree that there are many drivers going around driving all sorts of vehicles without having done proper training and provisional drivers driving around etc. The difference with tractor licences even in this day and age 16 year olds can and DO get licences to drive a large tractor plus two trailers totalling 22 metres on a public road with no training apart from a theory test. And it is 100% legal. Contrast that with what you need to do to get a artic lorry licence. First of all you need to be at least 18 and have already passed your car test. Then you have to pass your C (rigid) test. Only then can you apply for your provisional EC licence. Bit of a difference eh? Do tractor drivers even have to do a medical?

    I'm not making any assumptions I'm telling you what I'm seeing with my own eyes. Many tractors in bits and with no indicators. I'm also stating facts about how tractors don't have to do a DOE test unlike trucks.

    Most truck drivers that I know do check their vehicles actually. I don't know about car drivers but I do know that trucks are obliged to do a DOE test and cars an NCT. So there are at least some checks on their roadworthiness.

    Are they designed and engineered with pulling low loaders long distances on public roads in mind. Because that's what many of them are being used for.

    As I've told you already there are many tractors on the roads that are 20 or more years old. Are these being well maintained and under warranty and factory back up. What age is the average tractor on Irish roads compared to the average car or truck?

    What do you mean by "no good reason"? Do you know truck drivers who drive around the city wasting diesel "for fun" or something. i'm afraid you're deluded if you think that. If you are seeing trucks in the city of course there is a good reason for it. Deliveries, taking shortcuts to save time and money etc. If they're doing anything illegal by this then it's up to the Gardai to prosecute them.

    Have you got a link to that? As for the 2nd question no I would not normally expect to meet a vehicle on the wrong side of the centre line on a regional or national route. And if I did I would expect it to yield rather than try to force me into a ditch.

    If you want to have a discussion on this topic at least attempt to argue your point rather than reverting to lazy remarks like "do you drive at all". Also, you seem to have lss grips on the reality of the situaltion. The facts of the matter are that most agri-vegicles are not driven by 16 year olds. We know in theory that they can but the reality of the situation is that they don't. Strop trying to suggest that it is an issue because it simply isn't. You are also suggesting that there should be higher standards required for tractor driving for no real reason.

    the agri vehicle fleet is declining and if anything the machinery is getting bigger and better. Also as "industrial" machines they well engineered meeting the road standards of other "civilised" nations as you call them.

    I have been on plenty of R roads that don't have a central white line. They also vary in width so the presence of a central marking is really a niceity.

    The majority of road users do not check their vehicles on a daily basis. I certainly don't and I don't know many who do. You are simply wrong when you stae that most tractors are in bits because imperical evidence states otherwise. Would you be prepared to state an average out of ten?
    What do you mean by "no good reason"? Do you know truck drivers who drive around the city wasting diesel "for fun" or something. i'm afraid you're deluded if you think that. If you are seeing trucks in the city of course there is a good reason for it. Deliveries, taking shortcuts to save time and money etc. If they're doing anything illegal by this then it's up to the Gardai to prosecute them.

    I regularly see HGV's trucks in Dublin city that have no apparent reason to be there. One has to ask why a truck with a 40' container on board has to drive around college green and dwon Dame st. Why? It shows a complete lack of civic responsibility by truck drivers in general. And "taking a shortcut" is not a good enough reason. I even came accross a 40' truck that got stuck up on Stephens Green (Grafton St.) and had to be escorted out by Gardai. Where was he going and what was he tinking?
    Have you got a link to that? As for the 2nd question no I would not normally expect to meet a vehicle on the wrong side of the centre line on a regional or national route. And if I did I would expect it to yield rather than try to force me into a ditch.

    Do a google like I did but here's a quote to help you from the States

    LANE USAGE: Slower traffic must drive in the right-hand lane. The left lane is for passing and turning. Slow-moving vehicles may be wider than the lane width. It may be necessary for these wide vehicles to temporarily move into an adjoining lane to avoid roadside obstructions

    I note that you have modified your arguement to suit your situation. We were never talking about vehicles on the wrong side of the road we were talking about the vehicles that may protrude out over the central line (painted or otherwise). As pointed out, this is not the case with the majority of all farm machinery so its a non-issue despite you suggesting that it is otherwise. We all know that there are vehicles - that may or may not require an escort - using our road network. In rural areas, surprise surprise, the liklihood is that they will be agro-machines. So why are you not expecting to meet them??? You should now about them.

    ANyway, we are clearly not going to agree on this as you seem to have some tunnel vision when it comes to farm vehicles. So this will be my last word on the topic. I'm neading out to the country for my tea...if I see any afrmers I will do a visual inspection for missing lights, mirrors and teeth and report back.


  • #57
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    BrianD3 wrote:
    Name one of these many R-roads.

    On the R128 (Lusk to Rush) and the R127 (Skerries to Balbriggan), both in north Co Dublin, it is impossible to drive an articulated truck or any large vehicle without having to go over the white line in places. On the R127, it is necessary to occupy most of the other lane on some of the bends especially in the vicinity of Barnageeragh.
    Also name an R-road that has no centre line.

    The R126 (Portrane) has no centre line from Seaview Park to the Quay.
    Are they designed and engineered with pulling low loaders long distances on public roads in mind. Because that's what many of them are being used for.

    Some of them are, e.g. the JCB Fastrac (presumably short for fast tractor). Many modern tractors can be ordered with road friendly specifications - air suspension, cab suspension, air brakes, 80/90kph box etc.

    What do you mean by "no good reason"? Do you know truck drivers who drive around the city wasting diesel "for fun" or something. i'm afraid you're deluded if you think that. If you are seeing trucks in the city of course there is a good reason for it.

    100% agree with you there. I think Brian D has lost the plot here. Why on earth would any trucker wish to drive around a city if he could be out on the open road. It just happens that Dublin Port is in the city. Believe it or not, there are also shops, restaurants, supermarkets, and various businesses there which all require deliveries. :rolleyes:

    And if I did I would expect it to yield rather than try to force me into a ditch

    When doing lessons for my D, C, and CE licence, I was always told to make the car do the work (within reason). Small vehicles are much more manouverable than a 16.75 metre truck or a 18 metre bus.


    PS Brian D and Brian D3. Is that just coincidental?


  • #58
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    BrianD wrote:
    If you want to have a discussion on this topic at least attempt to argue your point rather than reverting to lazy remarks like "do you drive at all".
    Was a genuine question. BTW I didn't like the tone of some of your own comments in the thread eg
    They would be occupy sufficientlly enough road space that a normal driver would slow and prepare to move left if possible

    ANyway, we are clearly not going to agree on this as you seem to have some tunnel vision when it comes to farm vehicles
    That's fair enough, we have different opinions and it is a waste of time arguing on the internet. I haven't singled out farm vehicles though if you go through the trread I have talked about lots of different machinery and mentioned builders as well as farmers.

    Also I just have to say that Wishbone Ash says he is a tractor driver and has agreed with some of the points I've made so I'm by no means the only one who has these opinions.
    Wishbone Ash wrote:
    On the R128 (Lusk to Rush) and the R127 (Skerries to Balbriggan), both in north Co Dublin, it is impossible to drive an articulated truck or any large vehicle without having to go over the white line in places. On the R127, it is necessary to occupy most of the other lane on some of the bends especially in the vicinity of Barnageeragh.
    Fair enough but I am guessing that the trucks are not continually over the line and that when they go over it on tight turns it's more because of the length of the vehicle rather than the width (if that makes sense) I did say earlier that I admit that trucks may go over white lines at narrow bridges and sharp bends on R roads.

    I think this is slightly different to say a large Combine Harvester, a wide bog tractor, or a low loader with a large bulldozer which will overlap the white line at all times on one of these roads. I saw a truck + low loader with a bulldozer on an R road recently. It was moving slowly and had an escort front and back. Part of the reason I started the thread is I was wondering why I saw this but don't see escorts for wide farm machieny like combine harvesters which seem to be just as wide.


  • #59
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,478 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    As someone with fairly close connections/roots in the agricultural communuity I have to say I agree with the many posters here complaining about tractors etc on the roads.

    In the main I find tractor drivers ignorant and generally very disregarding of other road users. They fail to pull in let you off, despit there being many oppurtunities to do so. In my view there is a kind of attidude out there in the farming community that they are more important and that the rest of you road users can go eff off.

    Whats worse I find is farmers moving cattle on roads- case in point I live near a large dairy farm in N Kilkenny and every morning and evening up to 100 dairy cows are hunted over 1 km to be milked!!This is on roads payed for by the car user and roadtax payer.Do cows pay road tax?-I don't think so.
    This causes a major inconviencce to motorists.Does anybody know the legal position on this??I've no problem with cows crossing/going very short didtances but this guy really is taking the piss, four times daily.


  • #60
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    mfitzy wrote:
    In the main I find tractor drivers ignorant and generally very disregarding of other road users. They fail to pull in let you off, despit there being many oppurtunities to do so. In my view there is a kind of attidude out there in the farming community that they are more important and that the rest of you road users can go eff off.

    A tractor has as much right to be on a public road as a car. Travelling slowly is not an offence on non-motorway roads. As I said in a previous post, I pull in when I can but sometimes it's impossible to get out again especially in Dublin.
    mfitzy wrote:
    Whats worse I find is farmers moving cattle on roads- case in point I live near a large dairy farm in N Kilkenny and every morning and evening up to 100 dairy cows are hunted over 1 km to be milked!!This is on roads payed for by the car user and roadtax payer.Do cows pay road tax?-I don't think so.
    This causes a major inconviencce to motorists.Does anybody know the legal position on this??I've no problem with cows crossing/going very short didtances but this guy really is taking the piss, four times daily.

    It's perfectly legal as long as the drover takes reasonable steps to ensure that the animals do not obstruct or endanger other road users. 'Reasonable' is the operative word. I'm sure cows were being milked there long before you began driving.

    You are also obliged to obey signals and directions given by a person in charge of animals.


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  • #61
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,478 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Wishbone Ash wrote:
    A tractor has as much right to be on a public road as a car. Travelling slowly is not an offence on non-motorway roads. As I said in a previous post, I pull in when I can but sometimes it's impossible to get out again especially in Dublin.



    It's perfectly legal as long as the drover takes reasonable steps to ensure that the animals do not obstruct or endanger other road users. 'Reasonable' is the operative word. I'm sure cows were being milked there long before you began driving.

    You are also obliged to obey signals and directions given by a person in charge of animals.

    No actually, this is a recent development as the person has only bought the land and has as such made a conscience decision to bring the cows out onto public road- as i've said i've no problem with cattle being moved short distances but this case is really is taking the biscuit.Why not arrange his grassland management so as to use these far away fields for silage/ other aninamls- again total disregard for other road users, who are screwed for every penny of road tax.

    Again in my experience, tractor drivers are generally ignorant and will not pull over, regardless of whether they can pull out onto the road again or not.
    Travelling slowly may not be an offence but it is dangerous and causes other road users to get frustrated and take risks overtaking.
    You can defend tractor drivers all you like, but my experiences of them and the farming community on roads is mostly bad as i'm sure most other posters will concur with also.


  • #62
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    I concur 110% with that post. Tractor drivers are the most ignorant road users of them all. :mad:


  • #63
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    mfitzy wrote:
    You can defend tractor drivers all you like, but my experiences of them and the farming community on roads is mostly bad as i'm sure most other posters will concur with also.

    I'm not here to defend tractor drivers. I just think that many posters have a very one-sided attitude. Some of the critics of tractors on the road appear to be those motorists who hold category B licences. They have passed a test in one little category and think that they are God's gift on the road.

    How many of those motorists have experience of driving tractors or any other large slow moving machinery on public roads? In my experience many motorists show no understanding of the difficulties and dynamics involved. Driving a tractor takes much more effort and concentration than driving a car. It is a much nosier and uncomfortable environment. The only suspension system in many tractors is the air in the tyres.

    The tractor driver has to take the irrational moves made by some car drivers into account.When I indicate my intention to turn right and use hand signals some of these 'experts' will still overtake me. They are like sheep - one overtakes and they all do it. Or they overtake the tractor and then brake immediately to make a left turn when they could easily have stayed behind for a few more seconds.

    Have you ever approached a roundabout while driving a tractor with the intention of taking the third or subsequent exit? No one will let you over to the correct approach lane unless you are lucky enough to meet a truck driver who has a broader grasp of good driving practise.

    On a narrow road it may be necessary to occupy both sides of the road to enter or exit a field. Some motorists feel it necessary to continuously sound their horn until you have completed the manouvre even though on a straight road the tractor would have been visible for quite a distance.

    I was always lead to believe that you drive according to the prevelant conditions. Tractors are a fact of life on roads just like roadworks. If you cannot accept that I suggest that you some other form of transport. I could argue that I dislike sharing the road with cyclists or horses but I respect their right to be there. I do not tar all other motorists with the same brush. Nor do I complain about cars causing congestion and slowing me down.


  • #64
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    mfitzy wrote:
    In the main I find tractor drivers ignorant and generally very disregarding of other road users. They fail to pull in let you off, despit there being many oppurtunities to do so. In my view there is a kind of attidude out there in the farming community that they are more important and that the rest of you road users can go eff off.
    On single carriageway roads with hard shoulders (eg national primary routes) I find 99.9% of tractors do pull over into the HS. There's always one that doesn't though. There is one who I have seen a couple of times between Virginia and Cavan on the N3 who continually hogs the white line at 30 km/h and never pulls over even though this is the best part of the N3 with a wide, straight, smooth, clear, hard shoulder and great visibility. IMO this is extremely inconsiderate. The road isn't even that busy that he'd have difficulty getting back out of the hard shoulder again if say he wanted to turn right further down the road.

    On twisty roads without hard shoulders sometimes tractors will pull over into an entrance etc. to let cars past. Or sometimes not. I find they are more likely to pull in if it is a single car that's behind them rather than a queue. Possibly becasue if they pull over for a queue they'll be stuck in the entrance for ages before they can pull back out again.

    Mentioning tractors pulling out of fields reminds me of another thing. Field entrances on bends and/or with high hedges obscuring visibility. More than once I have been driving on an R or nat secondary road and next thing I see a set of counterbalance weights coming out from a concealed entrance in the hedge. By the time the tractor driver can see if there's anything coming a couple of feet of tractor is sticking out into the road. Dangerous. I don't know whether it 's the famers job or the local authority's job to ensure that the hedge is trimmed so that visibility is improved but someone should be compelled to do it.

    And on the subject of hedge trimming - tractors cutting hedges on blind bends with nobody directing traffic. In all the times I've seen hedges being cut only once have I seen traffic being directed. So traffic is forced to either a) sit stationary behind the tractor for ages until he moves on to somewhere with better visibility allowing an overtake b) take a chance and edge out to overtake even though you can't really see if there's anything coming


  • #65
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    BrianD3 wrote:
    Mentioning tractors pulling out of fields reminds me of another thing. Field entrances on bends and/or with high hedges obscuring visibility. More than once I have been driving on an R or nat secondary road and next thing I see a set of counterbalance weights coming out from a concealed entrance in the hedge.

    It's even worse when you have an implement on the front linkage!

    I don't know whether it 's the famers job or the local authority's job to ensure that the hedge is trimmed so that visibility is improved but someone should be compelled to do it.

    Landowners responsibility. (On bus routes Dublin Bus cut overhanging branches etc. to prevent damage to double deckers)
    And on the subject of hedge trimming - tractors cutting hedges on blind bends with nobody directing traffic. In all the times I've seen hedges being cut only once have I seen traffic being directed.

    They usually put up signs (in the Dublin area anyway). On dangerous busy roads I've often seen them with additional staff to direct traffic.


  • #66
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    don't know whether it 's the famers job or the local authority's job to ensure that the hedge is trimmed so that visibility is improved but someone should be compelled to do it.

    As far as I know, its the local authorities responsibility for hedges, but that the farmer/contractor will be held responsible if there is an accident. To be fair, hedges are an issue, but theres a lot the driver/farmer can do to mitigate the situation.

    Most people doing a lot of work (silage or cereal) involving many trips on to a public road will put down cones, warning signs or at least a red flag. Also, depending on the situation obviously, the tractor driver may well be able to see the road quite clearly.

    With large tractors however, there can be at good 3m of tractor on the road before the driver can see if the hedges are high, its difficult to get around that, no matter what you do. Hence you see drivers inching on to the road. Front mounted equipment makes that even more difficult, which is why the Gardai in some areas have been cracking down on it. I know of one contractor who has put a pair of mirrors on to his front mower. It means the operator can see up and down the road as soon as he starts to nose out.

    The one thing that used annoy me about car drivers was a lack of patience. If you are on the road with a large machine, then everything you do matters, and you have a lot less margin for error than a car driver. There are loads of examples I could use, but in general, car drivers should keep in mind that tractor drivers are just trying to get the hell off the road as quickly as possible, and trying to 'nip inside/past' a turning tractor is not a particularly good idea.

    And yes, of course there are w*nkers driving tractors, including people who drive without lights or reg plates or indicators. And there are those who refuse to pull over, even when there are clear opportunities to do so. Like any other type of road user, they should be dealt with in accordance with the law. Many people driving old and decrepit tractors are very small farmers though, and often the Gardai are loath to fine them or to insist that the vehicle be brought up to spec cos 'poor Paddy has been driving up and down that road like that for the last 30 years'. Not good enough anymore.


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  • #67
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    trying to 'nip inside/past' a turning tractor is not a particularly good idea.

    If motorists are impatient, it is because these things are all over the road, preventing legal use of the road by other law abiding motorists. Apart from travelling slow these vehicles do not confine themselves to their own side of the road, preventing overtaking even if there is nothing coming in the opposite direction. You can use the other side of the road for manoeuvres, but not when these obstruct other traffic. However the vast majority of wasters driving farm machinery and trucks use the size, lack of insurance and tanklike nature of their vehicles to intimidate other motorists.

    Driving a vehicle designed to used in field, at a speed far below the other traffic on the road is a bit like those who block traffic lanes "while they nip into the shop". Not always illegal, certainly not subject to effective legal penalty, but clearly anti-social behaviour.


  • #68
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    What would happen if the Gardai decided in the morning to start enforcing the law on tractors, zero tolerance to number plates, tax, insurance, lights etc? There would be chaos with the IFA et al mounting slow moving convoys to the Dail to protest the harrassment of their members. Typicaly irish though. :mad:


  • #69
    Aidan1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 624 ✭✭✭Aidan1


    You can use the other side of the road for manoeuvres, but not when these obstruct other traffic.

    I'll put it this way. You can allow me cross the road, and obstruct traffic for 10 seconds, or you can have me block the road all day cos I can't get into the field. Your choice. Farm machinery has a legal right to use the road too, and a little bit of consideration goes a long way.

    The reverse is the case also, of course, which is why we used always try and move big gear (combines, tillage train) at night when the roads are quieter.

    As for enforcement, some areas are better than others. In the East and South East, the Gardai generally have a fairly good handle on the situation. Once you cross the Shannon, the chances of coming across machinery entirely unsuitable for the public road increases rapidly in my experience.


  • #70
    Transport21 Fan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 696 ✭✭✭Transport21 Fan


    Why does every farm tractor in Ireland seem to always have a young child standing in the cab next to a farmer? It never ceases to amaze me how many farmers expose their children to incredible risk by having them unrestrained in the tractor beside as the thing is bounching up and down on a country road, usually with some kind of machinery being towed behind it.


  • #71
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Transport21 Fan wrote:
    Why does every farm tractor in Ireland seem to always have a young child standing in the cab next to a farmer? It never ceases to amaze me how many farmers expose their children to incredible risk by having them unrestrained in the tractor beside as the thing is bounching up and down on a country road, usually with some kind of machinery being towed behind it.

    It's also illegal. A passenger may only be carried on a tractor in a public place if:-

    1. The tractor driver has a full licence.
    2. The tractor is equipped with accomodation for the passenger.
    3. The passenger has a valid licence to drive the tractor. (i.e. would have to be a least 16 years of age)


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  • #72
    Saabdub
    Closed Accounts Posts: 228 ✭✭Saabdub


    Tractor on the M7 motorway this morning, forcing lorries into the overtaking lane. Is this legal?

    Saabdub

    t_25042008193m_caf1c8a.jpg


  • #73
    jd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,709 ✭✭✭jd


    Saabdub wrote: »
    Tractor on the M7 motorway this morning, forcing lorries into the fastlane. Is this legal?

    Saabdub

    t_25042008193m_caf1c8a.jpg


    It is certainly illegal to stop on the hard shoulder unless it is an emergency!

    And it is an overtaking lane, not a "FAST" lane


  • #74
    slimjimmc
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,786 ✭✭✭slimjimmc


    Saabdub wrote: »
    Tractor on the M7 motorway this morning, forcing lorries into the overtaking lane. Is this legal?

    Saabdub

    t_25042008193m_caf1c8a.jpg

    Tractors are not restricted from using motorways if they are capable of exceeding 50km/h. Modern large tractors like the one in the photo can hit 60-70km/h so are perfectly legal. I've occasionally passed one on the motorway too and they certainly weren't crawling.


  • #75
    Danno
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,913 ✭✭✭Danno


    A few weeks ago along the N8 outside Johnstown, Co. KK, the Gardai had a checkpoint at night time. a tractor with NO lights or beacon was allowed through without being stopped. A few years ago only a few miles down the road 5 people were killed for rear-ending a tractor that was unlit.

    Where is the sense in it all?


  • #76
    BALABOYBACH
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1 ✭BALABOYBACH


    BrianD3 wrote: »
    Does anyone think the situation with tractors being driven on the road is unsatisfactory. It might have been alright years ago when there weren't that many tractors and traffic was light. But nowadays there are big numbers of tractors on the road, not just for agriculture but also for the construction industry (eg digger contractors, hauling building rubble) Now AFAIK tractors do not have to undergo a DOE test. It shows too as the vast majority of tractor trailer combos that I see have defective lights. I wonder how well the rest of the tractor is maintained too. I think it's disgrace that they don't have to do a DOE test as after all they are being used for commercial activity and in place of trucks. Significant numbers of tractors don't have proper mirrors or number plates on either the tractor or the trailer. They obviously get away with this as so many of them are at it.

    Also is there any driving test for driving a tractor on the road and what is the exact situation with licences. Big tractors are pretty fast and can tow massive trailers yet from what I hear an an untrained 16 year old can legally drive one on the road. This is madness when you consider how much training needs to be done to get a full EC (articulated truck) licence. I know of a few crashes where someone was legally overtaking a tractor which turned right across their path without warning, tractor driver didn't look or indicate before making his turn.

    Next one - combine harvesters and other very wide machinery. Surely machinery over a certain width should have some sort of escort. I see machinery being driven on roads where the machine is so wide that it's phsyically impossible for it not to cross the white line on a regional road. Even tractors can take up most of the road on county roads where there is generally no white line. I see near misses all the time where cars meet fast moving tractors taking up 3/4 or more of the road. In these situations even if the car driver is travelling at a speed which allows him to stop in half the distance he can see to be clear he may still end up having to drive into the ditch to avoid a collision.

    Another question - what is the situation with agri diesel and tractors used by builders.
    you have to pass a driving test to drive a tractor in uk on the road you are only allowed to go to your test and back from it if you fail when you are 16 yrs of age


  • #77
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Saabdub wrote: »
    Tractor on the M7 motorway this morning, forcing lorries into the overtaking lane. Is this legal?
    That tractor is a JCB Fastrac (i.e. fast tractor) and it is perfectly legal for it to use a motorway as it meets the criterion. I followed one of those on the M50 recently from Dundrum to the N2 junction. He managed to average around 85kph. The only place where he dropped to about 55kph was the steep pull up under the Navan Road (and he was drawing a laden low loader). To put that into context, a double deck bus or a vehicle towing another vehicle is limited a a maximum speed of 65kph, yet I have yet to see a thread here complaining that motorists were held up by those vehicles.

    To say that trucks were 'forced' to use the right lane is rubbish. They chose to use it and do so illegally ( if the posted limit if over 80kph). If they are unwilling to abide by the motorway regulations, they are perfectly entitled to use non-motorway routes.
    Danno wrote:
    the Gardai had a checkpoint at night time. a tractor with NO lights or beacon was allowed through without being stopped.
    While I agree with the other sentiments expressed in your post, it is illegal for a tractor to use a beacon on a public road. The IFA have been campaigning for years to have this regulation changed.


  • #78
    Ham'nd'egger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,025 ✭✭✭Ham'nd'egger


    Wishbone Ash wrote: »

    While I agree with the other sentiments expressed in your post, it is illegal for a tractor to use a beacon on a public road. The IFA have been campaigning for years to have this regulation changed.

    May you clarify this "beacon" you refer of, Wishbone?


  • #79
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    Hamndegger wrote: »
    May you clarify this "beacon" you refer of, Wishbone?
    The flashing amber roof mounted lights that most new tractors are equipped with. The dealers usually disconnect them as they are illegal to use on a public road here.


  • #80
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    ...whilst in motion...i believe...

    can I vear slightley off topic and ask about the legality (or otherwise i suspect) of machinery such as the Moffat Mounty (lorry-mounted forklift) ...they dont have a seperate registration and yet I often see them being used on the road...possibly they count as aprt of the vehicle on a rigid truck but on an artic would be part of the trailer....


  • #81
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    corktina wrote: »
    ...whilst in motion...i believe...
    The regulations contained in the relevant Statute Instruments don't specify whether in motion or not.
    corktina wrote:
    can I vear slightley off topic and ask about the legality (or otherwise i suspect) of machinery such as the Moffat Mounty (lorry-mounted forklift) ...they dont have a seperate registration and yet I often see them being used on the road...possibly they count as aprt of the vehicle on a rigid truck but on an artic would be part of the trailer....
    I've never actually seen them operating in a public place but I'd imagine it would be illegal. Can't see anyone pursuing it though. If they caused an accident it may then become interesting.


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  • #82
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    ive often seen them...also cherry pickers, ordinary forklifts , street sweepers, grass cutters etc...all self pro-pelled and no plates or discs apparent....


  • #83
    Wishbone Ash
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 25,011 ✭✭✭✭Wishbone Ash


    corktina wrote: »
    ive often seen them...also cherry pickers, ordinary forklifts , street sweepers, grass cutters etc...all self pro-pelled and no plates or discs apparent....
    Most forklifts, sweepers and mowers operating in Dublin have plates. It's possible that ones you see may be registered but not actually displaying plates.

    Cherrypickers would probably be different IMO as they are not a form of transport or for carrying goods but merely an access tool. They are usually cordoned off when operating.


  • #84
    Capt'n Midnight
    Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 92,530 Mod ✭✭✭✭Capt'n Midnight


    dumper trucks near building sites, no indicators, no hand signals , no flagman , no plates :mad::mad:


  • #85
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    Quad bikes screaming up and down the road, rider no helmet. No plates or tax.


  • #86
    BrianD3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,449 ✭✭✭BrianD3


    I didn't know this thread had been resurrected :)

    Here is another thread about tractors, this time specifically about tractors with missing or defective lights.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055049702

    In case anyone thinks I have a vendetta against tractor drivers and am bashing them without any evidence check out post 31 in the above thread - in the post I've quoted some stats from an article on tractor roadworthiness that appeared in Classic Tractor magazine.


  • #87
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    do you recall the Farmers protest when they all drove their tractors to Dublin...the tax office and the customs were snowed under with tractors never before taxed or registered.....


  • #88
    streaker345
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭streaker345


    thats utter madness what your saying......tractors on da roads have exactly da same rights as car users on the road...so what you dont like being stuck behind a tractor!! no one does!! GET OVER IT!!!!!


  • #89
    streaker345
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭streaker345


    tractor drivers are not ignorant......


  • #90
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    are you quoting someones post in particular?


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  • #91
    streaker345
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9 ✭streaker345


    Bond-007 wrote: »
    I concur 110% with that post. Tractor drivers are the most ignorant road users of them all.

    yes I am for my firsst reply above^^^^

    Tractors are here to stay!!!:D


  • #92
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    well no they arent the worst...that honour goes to caravan drivers and Old F*rts (like the one last night in the centre of the town doing 10km/h with full headlights on..)...however a lot of tractor drivers COULD improve their image by having the courtesy to pull over when possible and by ensuring their vehicles are road-legal....which very often they are not...


  • #93
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    streaker345 wrote: »
    yes I am for my firsst reply above^^^^

    Tractors are here to stay!!!:D
    Maybe if they taxed them,brought up to a roadworthy condition and occasionally looked in the mirrors to allow others to pass then no one would complain.


  • #94
    Our man in Havana
    Closed Accounts Posts: 29,473 ✭✭✭✭Our man in Havana


    corktina wrote: »
    well no they arent the worst...that honour goes to caravan drivers and Old F*rts (like the one last night in the centre of the town doing 10km/h with full headlights on..)...however a lot of tractor drivers COULD improve their image by having the courtesy to pull over when possible and by ensuring their vehicles are road-legal....which very often they are not...
    I agree with you there. I suppose it is a toss up between tractors and caravans but generally the caravan will have tax and insurance on it. :D


  • #95
    corktina
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,733 ✭✭✭✭corktina


    thats true....except maybe if its being towed by a Hiace van....


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