DART+ (DART Expansion)

1huge1 · 28-07-2014 1:24pm

AngryLips wrote: »

I think Irish Rail would need to apply for a retention order to keep the existing station. I wonder if they do would they connect the two with some sort of underground walkway.

That's what I was assuming, on the New York Subway, loads of stations are connected by an underground walkway.

murphaph · 28-07-2014 2:55pm

AngryLips wrote: »

I think Irish Rail would need to apply for a retention order to keep the existing station. I wonder if they do would they connect the two with some sort of underground walkway.

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

AngryLips · 28-07-2014 3:57pm

Docklands was opened to facilitate increased services into the city when the Dunboyne spur was opened. Once the re-signalling project is complete and DU is constructed the Docklands station will be made redundant because southbound Dart services will be routed through Spencer Dock station instead of Connolly and also the loop line bridge will benefit from a re-signalling project by then, this will free up capacity that will allow all Docklands-terminating services to end in Connolly/Pearse or further south. That's why Docklands station was granted planning permission for only a fixed period of time (10 years if I'm not mistaken).

Aard · 28-07-2014 5:27pm

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

And eminently doable considering the liklihood of a Hawkins House redevelopment.

D Trent · 28-07-2014 7:01pm

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

What's MN?

1huge1 · 28-07-2014 7:03pm

Metro North

D.L.R. · 28-07-2014 9:25pm

murphaph wrote: »

They're not even putting in 2 entrances at all the stations....so what do ya reckon the odds are for an underground walkway? a pleasant underground walkway, with shops etc. should be installed under Burgh Quay to link MN to Tara Street, but that isn't going to happen either unfortunately.

If Tara St was underground also, a walkway would make sense. But its elevated, meaning interchanging commuters need to surface anyway. So its not practical or necessary.

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead, since that whole block is being redeveloped anyway, and its adjacent to Tara St. No Metro North for the foreseeable anyway.. might as well take advantage of changes on the ground. Tara becomes an interchange, and stick strategic exits on Burgh Quay and College St.

A station under O'Connell Bridge was a "premium option" chosen at the height of the credit bubble, and its not really great value for money IMO.

murphaph · 28-07-2014 9:38pm

D.L.R. wrote: »

If Tara St was underground also, a walkway would make sense. But its elevated, meaning interchanging commuters need to surface anyway. So its not practical or necessary.

They don't need to surface until safely under cover from the elements in Tara Street station though. The Quays can be bloody inhospitable in winter with horizontal driving rain and whatnot. Tara could and should arguably be fully enclosed (and will be probably if the air rights above the station are ever developed as (long) planned by CIE and in that case it's really irrelevant that it's above ground...the point is to make changing possible without needing to hold an umbrella over your head or in Dublin's case in front of your face.

D.L.R. wrote: »

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead

Potentially a good idea there alright. If they were to do that then there really would be no excuse for not physically linking both stations with an underground walkway and naming both stations the same.

Pete_Cavan · 29-07-2014 9:04am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Here's an idea - move the O'Connell station to the Hawkins House site instead, since that whole block is being redeveloped anyway, and its adjacent to Tara St. No Metro North for the foreseeable anyway.. might as well take advantage of changes on the ground. Tara becomes an interchange, and stick strategic exits on Burgh Quay and College St.

A station under O'Connell Bridge was a "premium option" chosen at the height of the credit bubble, and its not really great value for money IMO.

That is a fantastic idea. Only the other day, after watching the second episode of The £15bn Railway, I was thinking is it even possible to build a station box under O'Connell Bridge given the lack of space. How would you even dig shafts there, there is just no space to work in on either side of the river? You'd have to cofferdam off a square in the middle of the Liffey (probably even two) and dig down from there. Building the station under Hawkins House as part of a redevelopment of that site would seriously cut the cost of the station (building it on a large, cleared site v building it under the river with no working space in the middle of the busiest route in the city).

No doubt there would be huge opposition from Trinity though as it would mean the alignment being shifted directly underneath them.

Cinephille1888 · 29-07-2014 2:53pm

"No doubt there would be huge opposition from Trinity though as it would mean the alignment being shifted directly underneath them."

And there's the problem.

If we can ignore the back and forth of the College Green issue.

Hawkins house is an Ideal location for a full sized interchange.

Use Fleet Street/ College Street to access the Green line Luas.

Connect to Tara's Second entrance on Poolbeg street.

And Possibly cross the Liffey with a walkway to the lanes near Abbey Street. A lane which used to be included in O'C st plans for removal as access as I recall, some PR about removing the junkies...

But current plans only show O'C street furniture and no direct link to Luas straight out of the steps/Lift shafts.

Only issue is alignment.

The tunnel would likely have to turn directly under College street, closer to the Westin Hotel than to Trinity to protect buildings. Even at depth, with support for the buildings there would be some hesitation over this.

Considering the 15Bn£ Railway Documentary it certainly is possible to pass Trinity Like Sloan Square and other sensitive sites. But at great cost. (Also like the Jubilee Line station at Westminster)

Tearing up O'C street and Westmoreland for the Station Shafts would be an unholy mess compared to Hawkins House.

Turning back from Hawkins house to Reach Parnell Square may be a bit different.

O'C North/Parnell Street using the Carlton redevelopment site would be an even greater blessing if it could be done. Would give the super-mall there an added boost to be the station site when finished. Exits for Henry Street/O'C/Parnell and beside the Retunda and you're Golden

Of course it's more likely they will stick to the boom time plans than use Redevelopment zones and vacant sites for station boxes.

monument · 29-07-2014 4:25pm

Metro North seems to be off the agenda , with more and more signs that the RPA are looking at Luas to the airport and BRT will also be proceeding.

And if there's one major project going ahead, I'd prefer for it to be Dart given it's far wider impact.

Pete_Cavan · 29-07-2014 5:21pm

monument wrote: »

Metro North seems to be off the agenda , with more and more signs that the RPA are looking at Luas to the airport and BRT will also be proceeding.

And if there's one major project going ahead, I'd prefer for it to be Dart given it's far wider impact.

Luas and BPT have been mentioned a lot but they are not realistic options. MN is off the table for now but hopefully can be done in the not too distant future. If DU, and the station box at SSG, is built first and with some works done for the station box at the Mater, another box as part of a Hawkins House redevelopment, a decent chunk would have been taken off the cost of the project. This kind of piecemeal development of station boxes might eventually justify putting a TBM into the ground.

Oasis_Dublin · 29-07-2014 5:35pm

I see a lot of mention of the development of Hawkins House here. Is this aspirational, or are there concrete plans to do something with it? The most recent results for such a development seem to be from 2007 on the auld google box.

strassenwo!f · 29-07-2014 6:59pm

Cinephille, the problem TCD had was related to the metro going under their libraries. And you could see that, as the newest library goes around three floors below ground level.

Under Front Square itself , there are alleged to be several levels of wine cellars and such stuff. But building under the Front Square buildings probably isn't any more complicated than building under most other buildings in the city or anywhere else. Certainly not than building under Government Buildings on Merrion Street, which is currently proposed for the DART Underground project.

strassenwo!f · 29-07-2014 9:59pm

And, it should be said, and I forgot to mention it earlier, but it's probably not necessary to do so anyway, the main library (including the long room) is of enormous architectural value, not just in Ireland but worldwide. That's before you get to the contents of the place.

The metro was never going under there. I'm amazed the RPA even suggested it.

AngryLips · 30-07-2014 10:28am

The problem with Hawkins house is the same problem that exists with the existing station at Tara Street - it's perceived to be too far from most destination points in the city centre compared to the existing proposal for a station under O'Connell Bridge.

Oasis_Dublin · 30-07-2014 11:16am

If there was a station at Hawkins House, you could be at Supermacs on O'Connell Street in maybe three minutes if you crossed the Rosie Hackett Bridge. To be honest, I don't care how they do it, they just need to get rid of Hawkins House. Be it rail related, or not!

Cinephille1888 · 30-07-2014 11:26am

Hawkins house is now more central with the Rosie Hackett bridge.

It used to be the main location for many southside Bus Termini.

The Green Line Luas will pass it and stop on College Street.

The Screen Cinema, several Pubs, the Garda Station, and several central streets are right beside it.

Hawkins house (Dept of Health and Children), Apollo house (Dept of Social protection, and office of the Trinity College of Nursing and Midwifery), and mostly vaccant College house (Trinity spill over offices) are eyesores and rather poor buildings.

Even if there are no plans for their removal they should be. They do not fulfil their purpose as city centre offices.

With Tara Street, the Luas, and the possibility of being a good site for a station, any redevelopment would greatly increase it's popularity.

The reason it is remote is because those streets have been neglected and the towers are dingy. The previous forced dereliction of Tara street to promote the airspace over the station as being viable has also contributed to this "edge of the city" vibe. With less retail activity and almost no residence's it is a dark and dislocated place.

And yet Tara and D'Olier streets are major arteries. D'Olier is likely to be upgraded to two way traffic with the NTAs post Luas BXD road plans. Thus activity will only be increased.

I used to study in the Gas building, the Nursing campus for Trinity. D'Olier street was pretty scary/ dead between 2006/9. The Irish Times redevelopment is a nice addition, but it is mostly vacant due to opening during the recession.

In the surrounding areas the city could be a lot more dense and populated, but Hawkins house sucks a lot of this potential down. I would gladly pull the plunger, accommodate the Screen Cinema, and replace the whole block.

Mixed use ground floor, 2 or 3 sub levels for parking, a station box, and a couple of mid height towers (in the Irish context). 10-14 storeys of modern standards, some residential use, with mandatory social housing (possibly a separate tower to appease developers), and multiple amenities. Re-pave surrounding lanes and streets to promote pedestrian throughput and adequate lighting.

Hawkins house may currently be standing, but as a development opportunity it has more positive potential than possible disruption of Tara-airspace, or the brazen capitalist drive and disregard for history of the Carlton Super Mall.

The Dart's split route (pulling it back to topic) means that a re-signalled Tara Street will be on the Maynooth, Northern and Southern Lines. As it currently is, but greater frequency. Metro North Integration seems to be a very positive possibility, and with back burner plans, it could be worth re-visiting the possibility. A new city centre hub with a dedicated development connected that reaps reward after.

With O'C Bridge Station you disrupt the main streets of the city and have a deep station that adds only the traffic and trade, no new buildings or capacity to the city's core. Hawkins house afford the opportunity to increase the density of the city centre and stretch out to other key centres of employment left stranded from busy streets save for the quays. (the Ulster Bank towers)

BowWow · 30-07-2014 11:36am

Personally I'd like to see Hawkins House as the site of a new Dublin Bus Station, replacing BusAras.
A walkway bridge could link to Tara Street Dart Station.
Part of Luas is outside the door.
An underground walkway could link to the O'Connell Bridge MN station.

Cinephille1888 · 30-07-2014 11:53am

Through a quick google I found a DIT Architecture Graduates Thesis on a redevelopment of Hawkins house, Complete with Arts Campus and Metro Station.

But can't yet post a link as I am a new user.

The student's name is Michael Bradley and the pdf is called ACHQ The City Muse Hawkins House. For those who can find it.

I got to it via Redevelophawkinshouse dot wordpress.

TheBandicoot · 30-07-2014 11:57am

My own crayon plan for the area is to demolish everything between Townsend St and the quay wall, Hawkins St an Tara St, and completely redevelop into a large bus station for all operators(possible even a multi-level design), with direct Luas interchange and dedicated access to the Rosie bridge.

AngryLips · 30-07-2014 11:59am

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

If there was a station at Hawkins House, you could be at Supermacs on O'Connell Street in maybe three minutes if you crossed the Rosie Hackett Bridge.

I know. I'm just saying it would be perceived that way (which could impact usage)...not that it actually is any less central.

Schadenfreudia · 30-07-2014 8:51pm

TheBandicoot wrote: »

My own crayon plan for the area is to demolish everything between Townsend St and the quay wall, Hawkins St an Tara St, and completely redevelop into a large bus station for all operators(possible even a multi-level design), with direct Luas interchange and dedicated access to the Rosie bridge.

Wish you luck with that considering the passion two recently built ugly chimneys in the bay are generating!

Sam Russell · 30-07-2014 11:39pm

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Wish you luck with that considering the passion two recently built ugly chimneys in the bay are generating!

But they are big, recently built, ugly chimneys. They are not even twin, big, recently built, ugly chimneys.

TheBandicoot · 31-07-2014 11:25am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

Wish you luck with that considering the passion two recently built ugly chimneys in the bay are generating!

I know, but I thought that is what we were doing on this thread now, posting unrealistic crayon plans that will never happen.

Carawaystick · 03-08-2014 2:16am

TheBandicoot wrote: »

My own crayon plan for the area is to demolish everything between Townsend St and the quay wall, Hawkins St an Tara St, and completely redevelop into a large bus station for all operators(possible even a multi-level design), with direct Luas interchange and dedicated access to the Rosie bridge.

How far along Townsend st would your rape&pillage plan go? past Mark St? past Prince st sth?
All the way to Lombard St?

How much would you personally pay for your grandiose plan?

Muahahaha · 03-08-2014 4:52am

Oasis_Dublin wrote: »

If there was a station at Hawkins House, you could be at Supermacs on O'Connell Street in maybe three minutes if you crossed the Rosie Hackett Bridge. To be honest, I don't care how they do it, they just need to get rid of Hawkins House. Be it rail related, or not!

I hope when Hawkins House gets redeveloped there are many sticks of dynamite placed underneath it and thousands of Dubliners can crack open some bubbly and enjoy the show

It's has to rank in the top 5 most depressing buildings in the city centre

Sam Russell · 03-08-2014 11:17am

Muahahaha wrote: »

I hope when Hawkins House gets redeveloped there are many sticks of dynamite placed underneath it and thousands of Dubliners can crack open some bubbly and enjoy the show It's has to rank in the top 5 most depressing buildings in the city centre

I thought Leinster House caused the most depression for the population.

D.L.R. · 03-08-2014 7:37pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

I hope when Hawkins House gets redeveloped there are many sticks of dynamite placed underneath it and thousands of Dubliners can crack open some bubbly and enjoy the show It's has to rank in the top 5 most depressing buildings in the city centre

This got knocked to make way for Hawkins House & co.

Around the same time as the Georgian Houses went on Fitzwilliam St. Grim times.

Muahahaha · 03-08-2014 7:57pm

What a nice building, cultural vandalism to tear that down and replace it with Hawkins House. Was year was that torn down, was it Haughey era ?

Sam Russell · 03-08-2014 10:15pm

The fourth Theatre Royal, Dublin closed its doors on 30 June 1962. The building was subsequently demolished and replaced by a twelve-storey office block, Hawkins House, headquarters of Ireland's Department of Health.

D.L.R. · 03-08-2014 10:45pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

What a nice building, cultural vandalism to tear that down and replace it with Hawkins House. Was year was that torn down, was it Haughey era ?

Lemass.

IE123 · 05-08-2014 11:49am

What is going to happen in terms of EMU maintenance Depots when the Dart Underground opens?

If they build a new one, will Fairview stay open?

murphaph · 05-08-2014 12:01pm

I'm sure it will. Fairview is well positioned at the centre of the X.

IE123 · 05-08-2014 12:21pm

murphaph wrote: »

I'm sure it will. Fairview is well positioned at the centre of the X.

Where will the new depot be located?

TheBandicoot · 05-08-2014 12:27pm

A new EMU depot is not in the plans for DU. Not saying it won't happen, but there is no public info on the topic as far as I am aware.

AngryLips · 05-08-2014 1:30pm

There's a new depot already built in Drogheda

Cinephille1888 · 05-08-2014 1:34pm

AngryLips wrote: »

There's a new depot already built in Drogheda

Electrification won't stretch that far.

I've asked before what turn around at Balbriggan will be like but no one seems to know.

Same goes for Maynooth, how do they avoid conflict with Sligo/Longford DMUs?

Fairview will likely stay, but the increased stock needs somewhere to sit overnight...

IE123 · 05-08-2014 1:37pm

With all the new trains that they are going to order for Maynooth/Hazelhatch/Balbriggan Electrification, they will need a place to put all of these. There will be no room in Fairview, or in Drogheda due to the 29000 class using that as a depot.

IE123 · 05-08-2014 1:50pm

Cinephille1888 wrote: »

Electrification won't stretch that far.

I've asked before what turn around at Balbriggan will be like but no one seems to know.

Same goes for Maynooth, how do they avoid conflict with Sligo/Longford DMUs?

Fairview will likely stay, but the increased stock needs somewhere to sit overnight...

I would say that they will put maybe 2 sidings north of Balbriggan station, on the east side (side nearest to the coast.)

They could put two more on the opposite side also, and once the train terminates, they can use these sidings as a turnback facility, and at night, they can stable trains here.

At Maynooth, as far as I know, there is already one siding. But with alot more movements of Dart trains, they will need at least 2 more sidings to serve as a turnback facility.

Also, if a new Depot is built, it will have to contain a Wheel Lathe, in order to stop the practice of sending DART trains up to Drogheda for heavy maintenance

IE123 · 05-08-2014 5:50pm

Would there be room for additional sidings in Fairview?

Schadenfreudia · 05-08-2014 11:51pm

Presumably there is someone in Irish Rail who knows all this stuff?

Why so much conjecture when we can simply ask for information that I can't imagine is a secret?

Or am I being simple?

Zebra3 · 06-08-2014 1:59am

There is some work going on in Maymooth atm, not sure if it's related to any of this though.

thomasj · 10-08-2014 3:08pm

Zebra3 wrote: »

There is some work going on in Maymooth atm, not sure if it's related to any of this though.

Local Dublin 15 cllr Roderic o gorman has posted a reply he got from Leo varadkar in relation to dart underground work and the level crossings on the maynooth line

Taken from http://rodericogorman.com/?cat=25

(Link below will download PDF if letter sent from LV)
http://rodericogorman.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/06/Minister-Varadkar-letter-June-2014.pdf

TheBandicoot · 10-08-2014 5:50pm

God, that is infuriating. tl;dr : all work on closing LCs suspended until end of 2018.

monument · 10-08-2014 6:04pm

It's a hard lesson that there needs to be better public consultation and engagement before the planning stage of projects which have a potential to annoy people.

I'm not saying don't plan. Plan better. Get public buy in.

It's sad that public bodies need to be reminded of this over and over.

Hungerford · 10-08-2014 6:21pm

thomasj wrote: »

Local Dublin 15 cllr Roderic o gorman has posted a reply he got from Leo varadkar in relation to dart underground work and the level crossings on the maynooth line

Nice to see good old Varadkar maintaining the tradition of Transport Ministers abusing their position to reinforce their constituency positions. I can't see how any rational sensible person could oppose crossing closures - this being Ireland though, the government rolls over when approached by a few nutcases and suspends work for four years.

I wouldn't mind but the local residents will probably be the first to cry murder if someone gets killed on one of the unclosed crossings between now and 2018.

:mad:

CatInABox · 13-08-2014 10:32am

Dublin rail projects to rely on private funding

Not sure if this is information that is new or not:

The underground tunnel (formerly known as the interconnector) connecting the Docklands and Inchicore with underground stations in key locations and the €3 billion Metro North were mothballed when the Government decided on priority capital projects in 2011. Neither was completely abandoned and both are subject to feasibility reviews in light of economic conditions by the end of 2015.

However, ministerial briefing papers prepared for Mr Donohoe state while work on the projects was ongoing “no new large project, however strong the business case, could proceed unless a funding package outside the normal departmental allocations, and including private sector involvement, was available”.

D.L.R. · 13-08-2014 11:46am

CatInABox wrote: »

Dublin rail projects to rely on private funding

Not sure if this is information that is new or not:

Given the govt of the day ignored offers to privately fund a Dublin metro, and then built the Luas on the cheap, this may be whats needed.

Tons of private capital pouring into Dublin these days, we built our motorway network with private help so why not this.

The state clearly too busy doing economic gymnastics to invest properly in infrastructure.

FreudianSlippers · 13-08-2014 11:53am

D.L.R. wrote: »

Given the govt of the day ignored offers to privately fund a Dublin metro, and then built the Luas on the cheap, this may be whats needed.

Tons of private capital pouring into Dublin these days, we built our motorway network with private help so why not this. The state clearly can't deliver it.

With the amount of development ongoing and planned for the docklands and the silicon hub, I'd be shocked if there wasn't a call for a quick airport train which linked with the Luas and DART.

Say what you want about aircoach, it's not so handy from, for example, Google's office.

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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