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The Hazards of Belief

12357200

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    robindch wrote:
    > It should have been white chocolate?

    Nope, Jesus was a Palestinian, not a Paddy!

    If you move a good way over to the right, you'll see the joke.
    robindch wrote:
    Anyhow, I liked the spin that news outlets put on this. USA Today reported that the sculpture was "anatomically correct", while the excitable catholic league ran it under the title "NAKED JESUS—GENITALS EXPOSED—CRUCIFIED".

    Hmm. I can see them objecting to the first two points, but I feel they should hardly be surprised by the third.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    growler wrote:
    One has to admire his decision to test his faith in a lion's den, very biblical of him.

    Matthew 4,7 Jesus answered him(Satan), "It is also written: Do not put the Lord your God to the test". Very UNBIBLICAL of him...

    A tragic story indeed, and one can only assume one of two conclusions:

    A. The guy had serious mental problems...

    B. The guy was fed horse **** by some 'religious' group who brainwashed him into thinking this way...

    Whichever it was, the poor guy was deluded and we can only pray (athiests welcome ;) ) God has mercy on his soul. From his words, 'God will save me, if He exits', imo, do not sound like the words of a Christian, But then, who am I to judge?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    5uspect wrote:
    Just something I stumbled upon...

    2007-03-12.JPG


    John 15, 18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."

    Part and parcel of the territory as far as I'm concerned...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Splendour wrote:
    John 15, 18 "If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first."

    Part and parcel of the territory as far as I'm concerned...

    Hmm. Now if only atheists weren't the most hated minority, rather than Christians...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Scofflaw wrote:
    Hmm. Now if only atheists weren't the most hated minority, rather than Christians...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw

    Reckon we're be neck to neck there...


    Personally, I've alot more time for atheists, than the likes of Fr. Francis Moloney ( co author of Gospel of Judas ), who claims that some of Jesus miracles didn't actually happen. I don't understand how he and others like him, can claim this and go on to say the rest of the bible is true.


    Rev. 3,15-16I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Splendour wrote:
    Reckon we're be neck to neck there...

    I had the darned survey somewhere here - we're well out in front, more hated than homosexuals.
    Splendour wrote:
    Rev. 3,15-16I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot. I wish you were either one or the other! So, because you are lukewarm—neither hot nor cold—I am about to spit you out of my mouth.

    Sounds disturbingly like Nietzche...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > I had the darned survey somewhere here

    It's the first of a series of reports on the diversity of American society published by the University of Minnesota.

    http://www.soc.umn.edu/research/amp/pub.html

    50% more of the population distrust atheists than the next most distrusted group (Muslims; 26% v 39% and 33% v 47%). I suppose it's hardly surprising given the similarity of the questions, but almost half the population would object to a prospective offspring-in-law because he/she doesn't believe the same sky-deity exists? Weird.

    Mind you, if nobody wants their kids to marry atheists, and successive generations of kids obey their parents wishes in this, and there is some genetic predisposition to atheism (expressed perhaps as a a lesser tendency to both magical thinking and authoritarianism) then isn't it pretty clear why atheists make up such a tiny percentage of the population?

    .


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    robindch wrote:
    > I had the darned survey somewhere here

    It's the first of a series of reports on the diversity of American society published by the University of Minnesota.

    http://www.soc.umn.edu/research/amp/pub.html

    50% more of the population distrust atheists than the next most distrusted group (Muslims; 26% v 39% and 33% v 47%). I suppose it's hardly surprising given the similarity of the questions, but almost half the population would object to a prospective offspring-in-law because he/she doesn't believe the same sky-deity exists? Weird.

    Mind you, if nobody wants their kids to marry atheists, and successive generations of kids obey their parents wishes in this, and there is some genetic predisposition to atheism (expressed perhaps as a a lesser tendency to both magical thinking and authoritarianism) then isn't it pretty clear why atheists make up such a tiny percentage of the population?

    Fortunately, that trend is compensated for by the way the more fundamentalist Christian denominaitons produce atheists. One of the hazards of insisting that the entire Bible is literally true is that the contradictions blow people right out of their faith if they hit them.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    robindch wrote:
    > I had the darned survey somewhere here

    It's the first of a series of reports on the diversity of American society published by the University of Minnesota.

    ...
    then isn't it pretty clear why atheists make up such a tiny percentage of the population?
    I don't want to derail this thread - so if there's a discussion here let's move it, but I've been wondering about how religious the US is, really.

    I watch quite a bit of US TV, and the image it portrays is not one of a country any more religious than the most secular European country. Factual/Reality programs don't start with a prayer, thanks are rarely given to God and in fictional drama religion is rarely touched on, and when it is - it is just as often portrayed in a negative light - when you see a Catholic priest you can presume ... etc etc.

    As in everything there are exceptions (touched by an angel...) and the obvious argument is that this stuff is produced by Godless Californians, but these people above all want to make money and if they thought prime time bible stories would work I'm sure the airwaves would be full of them.

    So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al. Why doesn't American Idol start and and end with a prayer? Why when you watch desperate housewives are the characters religion and relationship with God not a far more central and important part of the story each week?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    robindch wrote:
    Anyhow, I liked the spin that news outlets put on this. USA Today reported that the sculpture was "anatomically correct", while the excitable catholic league ran it under the title "NAKED JESUS—GENITALS EXPOSED—CRUCIFIED". Meanwhile, the BBC's decorous article above simply reported that Jesus was depicted "without a loincloth"... :)

    I love the idea that if you show Jesus naked as he would have actually been when being crucified by the Romans (assuming he existed and was crucified) you are committing a "hate speech" against Christians

    :)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > that trend is compensated for by the way the more fundamentalist
    > Christian denominaitons produce atheists.


    Is there any research which documents how many atheists are born to fundamentalist parents?

    I'm sure the odd atheist must develop from time to time in Alabama before being chased out of town, but I wonder if it's like the G6PD mutation (confers resistance to malaria in heterozygous individuals, and death from anemia in homozygous individuals) -- generally, do the stats indicate that a sufficient number of suitably impressionable viable offspring are produced, and that the occasional atheist turns up, but rarely enough that you won't be able to retain control of the gene pool.

    Incidentally, the Amish do something like this: apparently, everybody has to go off and live in a big city for a while in their late teens and early twenties. At the end of the period, you've to decide whether or not you want to return and if you do, you've to sign up to an Amish life. This is a neat-o way of discarding disruptive gene lines (assuming behaviour is genetically determined in some way, which seems reasonable given recent research).


  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 23,556 ✭✭✭✭Sir Digby Chicken Caesar


    pH wrote:
    I don't want to derail this thread - so if there's a discussion here let's move it, but I've been wondering about how religious the US is, really.

    I watch quite a bit of US TV, and the image it portrays is not one of a country any more religious than the most secular European country. Factual/Reality programs don't start with a prayer, thanks are rarely given to God and in fictional drama religion is rarely touched on, and when it is - it is just as often portrayed in a negative light - when you see a Catholic priest you can presume ... etc etc.

    As in everything there are exceptions (touched by an angel...) and the obvious argument is that this stuff is produced by Godless Californians, but these people above all want to make money and if they thought prime time bible stories would work I'm sure the airwaves would be full of them.

    So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al. Why doesn't American Idol start and and end with a prayer? Why when you watch desperate housewives are the characters religion and relationship with God not a far more central and important part of the story each week?

    because the jews run the major television networks..

    jesus, does no one listen to the nazi's anymore?


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    > So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not
    > filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al.


    There are many religious channels in the USA, and most of them are free to air too! They're interesting to watch to, at least from time to time, just to keep tabs on what complete and utter tosh people will believe, if the preacher closes his eyes, waves his arms and shouts a lot :)

    I think you're perhaps sampling only from the channels which are broadcast country-wide or internationally and must appeal to everybody, not just the millions of backwood Jebs and Doris's.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    There a God Channel on NTL; number 610 or something.

    The reason we don't see more of such programming is that there is very little market for it here. It makes no sense economically to import Christian flavoured programming over to Europe.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    The reason we don't see more of such programming is that there is very little market for it here. It makes no sense economically to import Christian flavoured programming over to Europe.

    And in general, sinners lead more interesting lives....after all, you don't make soaps about people being good, and leading blameless lives. It's hard to see how you'd have a soap full of Christians that would simultaneously be "interesting" and not offend most Christians. A large part of the point of public religion in the US is that it is associated with private morality.
    pH wrote:
    So why if the US is as religious as it is claimed are the TV ratings not filled with programs about Christ, Moses et al. Why doesn't American Idol start and and end with a prayer? Why when you watch desperate housewives are the characters religion and relationship with God not a far more central and important part of the story each week?

    This will seem like an odd question, but bear with me - how many fat people do you see on US-produced media? Not as actors, but "in public", in "crowd scences" and just generally around the place?

    Do you think that what you see there is representative of the US reality?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,580 ✭✭✭Splendour


    Robindch writes:

    'Is there any research which documents how many atheists are born to fundamentalist parents?'

    Babies are born neither athiest or Christian no matter what their parents beliefs may be. We are all however, born seprated from God.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,371 ✭✭✭✭Zillah


    An atheist is someone who does not believe in God. Therefore, all babies are atheists, as they have no beliefs.

    Which is actually completely irrelevant to Robin's point. I believe his question would be better phrased with "...how many people who, as adults, were atheists..."


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Tipping my hat to Splendour and Zillah, the question should of course read:
    Is there any research which documents the religious beliefs of the offspring of self-described "fundamentalists", specifically documenting the religious beliefs of their offspring? Multi-generational research would be even more welcome.
    An interesting follow-up question is to determine if adult atheist offspring are living geographically (as well as religiously) further away from the parents than their religiously-compatible siblings, such details broken down by the gender of the siblings. I would suspect that the atheists live much further away, but that's just a guess.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    robindch wrote:
    Tipping my hat to Splendour and Zillah, the question should of course read:
    An interesting follow-up question is to determine if adult atheist offspring are living geographically (as well as religiously) further away from the parents than their religiously-compatible siblings, such details broken down by the gender of the siblings. I would suspect that the atheists live much further away, but that's just a guess.

    And on that if the evangelical types "home school" their kids and send then off to an approved Christian college rather than subject them to a secular education in the local high school followed by a normal college is there a major difference? Surely the rise of home schooling suggests anecdotal evidence that the evangelicals are worried about the effects of secular education on their kids. How this will play out will be interesting.

    Also wasn't there a documentary type movie about the leftist attitudes on US campuses made recently? I think the guy who made it was known as the Republican Michael Moore. Which brings me to pH's point about US telly. The different America you see in Moore's films is very different to the one we are normally used to seeing.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    ...then you may run into trouble with the cabbies. From here:
    MINNEAPOLIS - Taxi drivers who refuse service to travelers carrying alcohol at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport face tougher penalties despite protests from Muslim cabbies who sought a compromise for religious reasons, officials said Monday.

    The Metropolitan Airports Commission said new penalties were needed to ensure customers get safe and reliable taxi service, and voted to suspend a driver’s airport taxi license for 30 days for the first offense and revoke it for two years for a second offense. The new penalties take effect May 11.

    Airport officials say more than 70 percent of the cabbies at the airport are Muslim, and many of them say Islamic law forbids them from giving rides to people carrying alcohol.

    Under the old rules, a driver who refused to transport someone carrying alcohol would be told to go to the back of the taxicab line. Airport officials said that since January 2002, there have been more than 4,800 instances of drivers’ refusing to take alcohol-carrying travelers.

    Commissioners said the old rules didn’t prevent customers from being stranded at the curb or — as reported in a few cases — dropped off before their destination after drivers learned of their alcohol on board.

    Some Somalis who testified Monday urged commissioners to reject the new penalties and find some other solution.

    “We see this as a penalty against a group of Americans only for practicing their faith,” said Hassan Mohamud, an imam and an adjunct professor at William Mitchell College of Law.

    The airport had proposed one pilot program that had drivers who wouldn’t transport alcohol display a different top light on their cab, but the public’s reaction was overwhelmingly negative and taxi drivers feared it would make travelers avoid taxis altogether.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades




  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Ooooh, thanks! I'll be grinning all day over this.

    Now, how do we manage this for The Other Lot? :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,484 ✭✭✭✭Stephen


    Albanian man jailed for setting fire to Ferrari because "god told him to":

    thread here - http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055091853
    The article on unison requires registration to view.
    AN Albanian man who said a "message from God" told him to set fire to a Ferrari car valued at €132,000 has been jailed for five years.

    Safet Bukoshi (34), of Whiteoaks, Clonskeagh, told gardai he "received a message from God in English" to burn the Ferrari and his wife's Ford Fiesta, but he was unable to find a lighter to set fire to the Fiesta.

    A jury at Dublin Circuit Criminal Court found him guilty on day-five of his trial of arson of two cars, including the €132,000 Ferrari, at Whiteoak, Clonskeagh, on May 12, 2004.

    He was also convicted of attempted arson of a petrol pump and setting fire to a brief case and jacket in the forecourt of the Shell Service Station, Roebuck Road, Clonskeagh, endangering customers on the same day.

    Judge Frank O'Donnell told Bukoshi: "I regret to have to say, that from the evidence and your likelihood to repeat given the fact you are wanted in Scotland for a similar offence since commiting this one, that you are a walking time bomb." He imposed concurrent sentences totalling five years' imprisonment. Mr Michael O'Higgins, SC, told the judge there was an arrest warrant outstanding for Bukoshi for a fire allegedly set in Scotland before he was picked up by gardai in March 2005. He added the Scottish authorities application to the High Court that Bukoshi be surrendered after sentencing in Ireland had been granted.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Mildly interesting example of the Ireland Dev dreamed of. (Although, admittedly, he hardly would have foreseen Irish speaking Jehovah's Witnesses on the national airwaves.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=53285789#post53285789

    I don't share the general hagiography of TG4 as an organisation doing a loaves and fishes jobs with a miniscule budget, so I just want to make a gratutious swipe by pointing out they get essentially the same subsidy as RTE 2 and use it to broadcast old Westerns to 4% of the population.

    Of course, they also do innovative home-made programmes. Like Glor Tire, an extremely innovative Country music talent show that spawned You're a Star/X Factor/American Idol. Fancy that, Simon Cowell owing his reputation to an idea pioneered by an Irish language channel in Connemara.

    You won't hear the crowd in Dublin talking about it, though. They hate the idea of seeing yet another success story confounding the naysayers, and prefer to sneer at how any gob****e with a blas can point a camera at themselves and get on the air. They prefer to make cheap comments like you'd be broadcasting to a larger audience if you answer your mobile phone on the Dart.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Schuhart wrote:
    I don't share the general hagiography of TG4 as an organisation doing a loaves and fishes jobs with a miniscule budget, so I just want to make a gratutious swipe by pointing out they get essentially the same subsidy as RTE 2 and use it to broadcast old Westerns to 4% of the population.

    You won't hear the crowd in Dublin talking about it, though. They hate the idea of seeing yet another success story confounding the naysayers, and prefer to sneer at how any gob****e with a blas can point a camera at themselves and get on the air. They prefer to make cheap comments like you'd be broadcasting to a larger audience if you answer your mobile phone on the Dart.

    These are very mixed messages, Schuhart...

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,835 ✭✭✭Schuhart


    Scofflaw wrote:
    These are very mixed messages, Schuhart...
    Indeed. Halfway through writing the post I was possessed by the spirit of a provincial newspaper editor, hence the sudden conversion to mindless enthusiasm backed by dubious facts in the last two paragraphs.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Stephen wrote:
    Albanian man jailed for setting fire to Ferrari because "god told him to":

    Thank God the Feista was ok though...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Schuhart wrote:
    Indeed. Halfway through writing the post I was possessed by the spirit of a provincial newspaper editor, hence the sudden conversion to mindless enthusiasm backed by dubious facts in the last two paragraphs.

    That explains it. I hope you're over it by Thursday.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Interesting bits highlighted below:
    RTE News wrote:
    The Catholic Church has agreed to act as patron for a new primary school in Dublin 15 even though it is believed the vast majority of children attending will not be Catholic. The new school is due to open this September with up to 90 children who have been unable to find places in existing schools in the Diswellstown area. Diswellstown is one of several areas in Dublin 15 which has seen a population explosion in recent years. It has two primary schools, both Catholic, and those schools have enforced a strict enrolment policy giving priority to Catholic children. Both schools are now full and up to 90 junior infants, many of whom would not be Catholic, are believed to have no school place for September. The Dublin archdiocese says it was reluctant to open another Catholic school in the area because it believes the existing schools are sufficient to cater for the Catholic population. But following a request from the Department of Education it has now agreed to act as a caretaker patron for this new emergency school but only until an alternative is arranged. Archbishop Diarmuid Martin has said Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage to suit our changing society. It is not yet known where this new school will be accommodated or what the Department of Education's long-term plans are. The department told RTÉ today that it has no comment to make on the issue.
    Religious discrimination is openly permitted, but Martin apparently wants to change things -- I wonder how?


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Maybe this calls for some aggressive secularism?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote:
    Interesting bits highlighted below:Religious discrimination is openly permitted, but Martin apparently wants to change things -- I wonder how?

    It appears that one of the most prosperous and best-educated nations in Europe is incapable of establishing a school without having to seek help from the Catholic Church. The mind boggles.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    5uspect wrote:
    Maybe this calls for some aggressive secularism?
    Out with the old "Ah, come on now" and "Down with this sort of thing" placards again?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,009 ✭✭✭Tim Robbins


    PDN wrote:
    It appears that one of the most prosperous and best-educated nations in Europe is incapable of establishing a school without having to seek help from the Catholic Church. The mind boggles.
    I think FF are terrified of alienating the Catholic Church. McCreevy once said there are three important organisations in Ireland. FF, The Catholic Church and GAA. Makes you cringe eh?


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    robindch wrote:
    Out with the old "Ah, come on now" and "Down with this sort of thing" placards again?

    Shouldn't you be writing your letters to the Irish Times and the Indo now? ;)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    I think FF are terrified of alienating the Catholic Church.
    Sounds to me like the catholic church aren't too concerned about the Government alienating their schools - saying "Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Sounds to me like the catholic church aren't too concerned about the Government alienating their schools - saying "Ireland needs to quickly find new models of school patronage".

    Catholic Church more progressive than Government shock!

    "Next they'll be telling us the world isn't flat!" says Minister.

    "We must resist the aggressive secularism of the Catholic Church", says Bertie.

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    5uspect wrote:
    Shouldn't you be writing your letters to the Irish Times and the Indo now?
    Things must have been slow last night on the IT's letters page -- my email from last Tuesday evening finally met the public today :)


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Nice one. I don't have access at home, I'll pick up a copy later on down the shop.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 10,518 Mod ✭✭✭✭5uspect


    Ars Technica field trip the Creation Museum.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    In what looks like a thoroughly gruesome read, a new book claims that a christian fundamentalist cult set up in Limerick in the 90's and spent much of their time having sex with each other, especially the children. One of whom has written about her experiences and who's due to give an interview on TV3 tomorrow (Friday) morning:

    http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8133&category=Daily-Thu
    http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8129&category=Daily-Thu

    "The Family" is well-known, but I didn't realize that they operated in Ireland. Is anybody aware of anybody who's had contact with them?
    Castleconnell area was base for child sex cult, claims victim, by Mary Earls

    THE shocking story of a religious cult which, it is claimed, set up base in the Castleconnell area in the 1990s, is detailed in a new book published by Harper Collins. THE Children of God Cult, in which orgies and sex between adults and children was considered the highest expression of love, had one of its communes in county Limerick in the late 1990's, it has been claimed in a new book. And Julianna Buhring, who lived in one of the religious cult's rented homes somewhere near Castleconnell for over a year, said she is "positive" the organisation is still active in this region. [...]

    "Not Without My Sister" is a newly released book, penned by Julianna and her sisters Celeste and Kristina, about their struggle to escape the perverse community that robbed them of their childhood and saw them live in dozens of countries world-wide to maintain secrecy. The Children of God cult, which was founded by warped leader David Berg, is now known as 'The Family'. And today the three sisters work for a new organisation called RISE International set up to protect children from abuse in cults.

    Speaking to the Limerick Post, 26-year-old Julianna alleged that "from as early as three years old, we were treated by our 'guardians' as sexual beings". "Sexual activity was actively encouraged. We received love letters and sexual advances from men old enough to be our grandfathers, and were forced into openly abusive relationships. We were also denied access to formal schooling, forced to beg on the streets for money, and were mercilessly beaten for 'crimes' such as reading an encyclopedia. [...]

    "We used to dress up as clowns in Limerick and make a living doing face paintings and going to shopping malls etc. And we raked in loads of money but this all went to the family leadership. I always dreamed about breaking free, but the group constantly instilled fear into us from a young age as regards the outside world. When I finally left at aged 23, I had no money and no idea of how to function in the outside world. People wondered where the hell I'd come from, because I'd no bank account etc. And after I left, I was shunned by family and friends It takes a lot to get out of the clutches of the cult because you were born into this and don't know anything else," she said. [...]
    Apart from the gross unpleasantness of the alleged abuse, what strikes me is the common themes between the cult and the more mainstream religions -- control of education and information, instilling fear, rejection of religion causes rejection by family, Jesus coming back soon to judge everybody, obsession with sex, money going to leadership without controls in place, religiously-derived violence is acceptable, etc, etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,484 ✭✭✭✭Stephen


    5uspect wrote:
    Ars Technica field trip the Creation Museum.

    If I believed in god i'd be saying OMFG right now.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    Oh so Velociraptors were vegetarian now? There goes everything i thought i knew. What was the sickle claw for again??


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,718 ✭✭✭The Mad Hatter


    Galvasean wrote:
    Oh so Velociraptors were vegetarian now? There goes everything i thought i knew. What was the sickle claw for again??

    Stripping the bark off trees, obviously.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30,746 ✭✭✭✭Galvasean


    But but we now know that Velociraptor's claws werent strong enough to rip through flesh bark, but were instead used to pin down prey trees or possibly even stab the jugular root..


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote:
    In what looks like a thoroughly gruesome read, a new book claims that a christian fundamentalist cult set up in Limerick in the 90's and spent much of their time having sex with each other, especially the children. One of whom has written about her experiences and who's due to give an interview on TV3 tomorrow (Friday) morning:

    http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8133&category=Daily-Thu
    http://www.limerickpost.ie/dailynews.elive?id=8129&category=Daily-Thu

    "The Family" is well-known, but I didn't realize that they operated in Ireland. Is anybody aware of anybody who's had contact with them?

    Apart from the gross unpleasantness of the alleged abuse, what strikes me is the common themes between the cult and the more mainstream religions -- control of education and information, instilling fear, rejection of religion causes rejection by family, Jesus coming back soon to judge everybody, obsession with sex, money going to leadership without controls in place, religiously-derived violence is acceptable, etc, etc.

    Yes, that particular cult certainly was active in Ireland at one time. I know a prominent businessman who was very involved with them. He claims that the particular group he was involved in had none of the abuse stuff at that time.

    I think most of the bad traits you mention in your final paragraph (control of education and information, instilling fear, rejection of ideology causes rejection by family, obsession with sex, money going to leadership without controls in place, ideological violence) are common themes in any totalitarian group, be it religious or atheistic. However, to say they are common with mainstream religions is inaccurate. I see none of these traits in most religious communities in Ireland.


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    A Tanzanian medicine man jumped into a river, saying he was visiting the ancestors and would return Tuesday with a revelation. Didn't work out like that, unfortunately.

    http://www.dailynews-tsn.com/page.php?id=8335
    THAT water bodies are believed to be the gateways to the underneath spirit world, is not altogether uncommon belief but never has a man boasted to descend to the “gates of hell” by jumping into a river under the full glare of chanting and dancing onlookers.

    Unbelievable? That is what happened at Masigo village in Mpanda district last Saturday when traditional medicine man cum soothsayer Nyasio Alfonsi (40) threw himself into Ifuma River amid chants and drumming promising to resurface after three days “with revelation from the ancestral spirits for the village on planned tribal rituals.”

    Four days later, Alfonso was nowhere to be seen as the villagers too awoke from their stupor to mount a search only to fish out his decomposed body some metres downstream. Rukwa Regional Police Commander Mr Daudi Siasi confirmed the incident which he said, was reported to police by village leaders. It was not immediately clear whether the tribal rituals would go on as planned later this week but Masigo is certainly a grieving village now rather than the proud source of prophesy from departed ancestors.

    Belief in witchcraft is widespread in Rukwa region and traditional medicinemen are often held in awe and feared for their spells believed to be ‘divine’ prophesy and judgement. The region is also notorious for grotesque murders with bodies found skinned and private parts removed in what is often believed to be killings associated with belief in witchcraft.

    Whereas humans are believed to practise ‘astral travel’ or shedding the mortal body to travel in spirit to great distances and through physical obstacles, practitioners would still die if they failed to rejoin their bodies or casing for the soul, before daybreak.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 13,686 ✭✭✭✭PDN


    robindch wrote:
    A Tanzanian medicine man jumped into a river, saying he was visiting the ancestors and would return Tuesday with a revelation. Didn't work out like that, unfortunately.

    Shades of Empedocles?

    There is nothing new under the sun. (Ecclesiastes 1:9)


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,420 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Meanwhile, the local director of disease control says people are unlikely to be as pure as they claim. None of god's spokesmen commented. The original article is here.
    Last year in Mobile County, 4,629 new cases of chlamydia, gonorrhea and syphilis were reported -- enough instances of the sexually transmitted diseases to account for one out of every 87 people, according to a Press-Register review of state and federal statistics. That was about three times the rate in New York City and more than twice as high as Washington, D.C. While the numbers seem shocking, they're not at epidemic levels, according to health officials.

    "If you don't do this for a living or you're not an OB specialist or you're not an infectious disease specialist, and you look at the numbers, you go, 'Oh my God,'" said Paul Piepho, disease intervention program manager at the Mobile County Health Department. "We're not at that point." Statewide, syphilis cases were up 60 percent last year, compared with 2005 (from 583 cases to 931). Chlamydia has also been on the rise, increasing 44-fold from 509 cases in 1994 to 22,560 in 2006. "And I think we're seeing just the tip of the iceberg," Piepho said.

    Eight counties -- poor and sparsely populated except for No. 2-ranked Montgomery County -- had higher STD rates in 2006 than Mobile County, statistics showed. A lack of education weighs heavily on a county's rate, health officials said. In Alabama public schools, students are taught abstinence-based sex education as part of a half credit of health education in high school. Students learn that "abstinence is the only protection against pregnancy, HIV/AIDs and STDs," said state Department of Education spokeswoman Edith Parten. The subject of condoms, under the state course of study guidelines, is not broached, she said. "(Ages) 15 to 29 is the high-risk group, and it's typical of a lot of things," said Monica Z. Knight, director of the bureau of disease control at the Mobile County Health Department. "They think they're invincible or they have no knowledge or they don't care or 'It's something that's going happen to that person, but not to me.'"

    Lower incomes and higher poverty also play roles in infection rates, officials said. Baldwin County, for example, had one of the state's lower STD rates last year, with the equivalent of one in every 302 people diagnosed with one of the three diseases. In Baldwin, median household income in 2004 was $42,227, and Census data showed that 10 percent of people lived below the poverty line. That same year in Mobile County, the median household income was almost $10,000 less, and the number of people living below the poverty level was 20 percent. Hale County in west-central Alabama had the highest STD rate, with the equivalent of one out of every 58 residents being diagnosed last year. In Hale, 22 percent of the population lives below the poverty level.

    "Having been an educator myself and teaching teenage girls ... I don't think we address sex education well in the schools. At all," said Dr. Nancy O'Neill, chief of staff at Hale County Hospital. Officials pointed to more and better testing as a big reason that STD numbers are higher. "Before about two or three years ago, we were not even able to do chlamydia testing on males," said Victor Creagh, disease intervention supervisor at the Baldwin County Health Department. "And I'm not sure all females were getting tested as they should have at that time."

    Now, one sample from a urine test can be checked simultaneously for chlamydia and gonorrhea. But just asking to get tested can be a major problem for some people. "Your personal intimacy behavior in any population is generally not something you run around sharing with people," Knight said, "and you don't know -- in any age group -- who you are exposed to by exposing yourself to a partner who swears they're healthy, swears they've never done anything, swears they are saint of the month. "And guess what? They're not."


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,283 ✭✭✭✭Scofflaw


    Being publicly mad - Ann Coulter. Does that count? Or does she count?

    cordially,
    Scofflaw


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    Scofflaw wrote: »
    Being publicly mad - Ann Coulter. Does that count? Or does she count?
    Reading that made me think.

    Isn't she only saying out loud what every true Christian believes? That Jews are only not Christians by virtue of their rejecting Christ? Why is Ann Coulter wanting to 'perfect' Jews any different than a proselytizing Christian trying to convert an atheist/agnostic. The only difference is the word "perfect" which she is using to indicate that Jews are almost Christians; but which the average person would take as meaning Jews are imperfect. The missing point is that all non-Christians are imperfect, Jewish less so.

    Her use of the word 'perfect' reminds me of Dawkins use of 'delusion'. You get your audience's back up before you've even started.


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