Sectarian attacks by Republicans during the the Troubles.

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 1:17pm #1

When you here Republican sectarian attacks during the troubles Kingsmill comes to mind, maybe the INLA cover name the Catholic Reaction Force (who did maybe 5 attacks the most notable the Darkley shootings) in Response to the UVF's Protestant Reaction Force & that is usually it. They don't associate Republicans walking into pubs like the UDA & UVF used to & just shot the place up.

But in the late 80's a breakaway group (not a front or cover name) from the INLA called the IPLO (Irish People's Liberation Organization) was formed. After a bloody war with the INLA the group established itself as major player & started to do what most Republican paramilitaries were doing attacking security force. But around 88-89 the Loyalists started high profile attacks on Catholic civilians again. Most republican paramilitaries like the IRA responded to these type of attacks by killing UVF & UDA men. But not the IPLO. In 1989 IPLO members walked into a East Belfast pub called the Orange Cross & just started shooting at anything that moved as far as I'm aware 3 died (maybe 4) in that attack with several more injured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35y6f726go

1991 they carried out a similar attack in a so called "revenge" attack. 2 died in this one & several more injured.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HT4iqSkSw

In their next & last sectarian attack they were able to carry out they killed a pensioner in May 1992 just a few months before the IRA took the group out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mzAo1HXLE

They killed 12 innocent people & 2 UVF men in other similar attacks.

The IRA forcibly disbanded them in October 1992 in a attack dubbed "The night of long knives" as the IRA purged this group killing it's leader & shooting several other in the legs & taken it's weapons & money. The IRA probably did it because the IPLO was claiming to be Republicans when most people in the Republican strongholds just thought of them as gangsters & drug dealers & ruing the Republican image which they were.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2xhALo0AFc

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67XP79pHNrI

I think this is around the same time the IRA started "waging" a "war" against drug dealers using the name DAAD (Direct Action Against Drugs) to claim such attacks.

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 1:26pm

It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?

Fratton Fred · 15-07-2014 2:09pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?

If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

Republican propaganda is an odd thing.

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 4:49pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

Republican propaganda is an odd thing.

I don't think so, the IPLO wasn't very liked at all & were seen as hijacking the Republican movement to sell drugs. And it's ver unlikely the police would have shot him. By 1991 they had pretty much halted attacks on Crown forces & just shot Protestants & sold drugs so it's unlikely they would have engaged police or Army.

And people didn't hail the IRA as heroes for killing him It was on the cards for sometime & was just seen as something that had to be got rid of. A bit like Billy Wright had to be got rid off for the peace process I don't think the INLA were hailed as heroe for that. Maybe when they carried out some daring raids like on Ballgalley Barracks, Loughgall, Derryard Checkpoint etc... they were sort of hailed as heroic because of the high risks involved but not for just shooting one individual.

Jawgap · 15-07-2014 4:56pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?

Feckin' laws eh? If we could just do away with a few of those pesky laws, things would be so much better......

pO1Neil wrote: »

I don't think so, the IPLO wasn't very liked at all & were seen as hijacking the Republican movement to sell drugs. And it's ver unlikely the police would have shot him. By 1991 they had pretty much halted attacks on Crown forces & just shot Protestants & sold drugs so it's unlikely they would have engaged police or Army.

Post fact justification...........nothing to stop information being passed to the police on where the drugs were being stored and dealt.

Frankly, I'm just glad when that pit of vipers turned on each other there were even more deaths of innocents in the crossfire......

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 5:14pm

Please stop hijacking the thread please people for your own political views. This Is History forum not politics forum.

Jawgap · 15-07-2014 5:17pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

Please stop hijacking the thread please people for your own political views. This Is History forum not politics forum.

I've no intention go hijacking this, or any other, thread. In fact legitimising what happened by discussing it is something you can do with someone else.

Incidentally, as you mention this is a History forum, so are there any reasonably objective sources you can point to that discuss your expressed opinions in more detail?

Good luck.

tac foley · 15-07-2014 5:19pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

Maybe when they carried out some daring raids like on Ballgalley Barracks, Loughgall, Derryard Checkpoint etc... they were sort of hailed as heroic because of the high risks involved but not for just shooting one individual.

Didn't go too well at Loughgall, I seem to remember......and THAT is a historical fact.

tac

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 5:32pm

No 8 IRA men were killed at Loughgall but it was a high risk operation which is why it was regarded highly among nationalists & even British Army.

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 5:36pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Feckin' laws eh? If we could just do away with a few of those pesky laws, things would be so much better......

Post fact justification...........nothing to stop information being passed to the police on where the drugs were being stored and dealt.

Frankly, I'm just glad when that pit of vipers turned on each other there were even more deaths of innocents in the crossfire......

Talking about law & what to do with it, being glad paramilitaries turned on each other (which they didn't they were never with each other)
That sounds political to me with a hint of sarcasm.

Jawgap · 15-07-2014 6:54pm

I see Coshquin doesn't make it on to the 'heroic' list of operations.

tac foley · 15-07-2014 9:23pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

No 8 IRA men were killed at Loughgall but it was a high risk operation which is why it was regarded highly among nationalists & even British Army.

Who on earth told you that? :eek:

tac

pO1Neil · 15-07-2014 9:29pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I see Coshquin doesn't make it on to the 'heroic' list of operations.

Also letting your politics get in the way by liking the fact 8 men were killed at Loughgall.

And most Republicans were sickened by Coshquin & it was not tried again. Yet more politics from you. That wasn't a sectarian attack either please dstay on topic.

I want to talk about sectarian attacks not any mad random ones.

tac foley · 15-07-2014 9:56pm

The mass murder of the Miami Showband was an example of a sectarian killing.

Mr Stone's fatal attack carried out on a funeral was a sectarian killing.

The Loughgall incident was a PIRA action designed to slaughter members of the RUC and anyone else who happened to be around at the time.

Some would call them patriots, others terrorists. This is not the place to say which category they and their actions come under.

tac

Jawgap · 15-07-2014 10:04pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

Also letting your politics get in the way by liking the fact 8 men were killed at Loughgall.

Live by the sword - die by the sword. I can't imagine the IRA volunteers would have offered much quarter so I'm not sure why they deserved any.

pO1Neil wrote: »

And most Republicans were sickened by Coshquin & it was not tried again. Yet more politics from you. That wasn't a sectarian attack either please dstay on topic.

I want to talk about sectarian attacks not any mad random ones.

Actually they tried it twice more. And there was nothing mad about them - they were chillingly premeditated.

Also, maybe leave modding to the mods.....?

feargale · 15-07-2014 11:35pm

Would this thread not be more appropriately placed in the politics forum?

pO1Neil · 16-07-2014 1:31am

tac foley wrote: »

Who on earth told you that? :eek:

tac

A British army report admiring the guts after a similar attack.

A senior British Military officer, when quizzed about the IRA attack said:

They are murdering bastards, but they are not cowards. This team actually pressed home a ground attack right into the heart of the compound. That takes guts when there are people firing back.

http://www.hermanh.be/Derryard%20Checkpoint%20Attack.html

pO1Neil · 16-07-2014 1:34am

Jawgap wrote: »

Live by the sword - die by the sword. I can't imagine the IRA volunteers would have offered much quarter so I'm not sure why they deserved any.

Actually they tried it twice more. And there was nothing mad about them - they were chillingly premeditated.

Also, maybe leave modding to the mods.....?

More politics stop hijacking my thread please.

Jawgap · 16-07-2014 5:42am

pO1Neil wrote: »

A British army report admiring the guts after a similar attack.

http://www.hermanh.be/Derryard%20Checkpoint%20Attack.html

A re-hash of a Wikipedia page? That's your source? :rolleyes:

pO1Neil wrote: »

More politics stop hijacking my thread please.

Actually, it's not politics it's fact......

As you seem to be a fan of Wikipedia you can read all about it here

........and here.....

Missing Their Mark: The IRA's Proxy Bomb Campaign by Mia Bloom and John Horgan in Social Research Vol. 75, No. 2, Martyrdom, Self-Sacrifice, and Self-Denial (SUMMER 2008), pp. 579-614

Your assertion that human proxy bombs were not tried again after Coshquin would seem to be somewhat at odds with historiography of Operation Banner.......

Jawgap · 16-07-2014 6:03am

pO1Neil wrote: »

More politics stop hijacking my thread please.

Bloom and Horgan discuss the use of and indeed emphasise the fact that Catholic civilians were forced into becoming the mules in proxy attacks.......does this not suggest that there was an element of sectarianism in these incidents

Pg588

This time the IRA combined the use of a VBIED [vehicle-borne IED] with the coercion of Catholic [their emphasis] civilians. This at once reflected both a lack of resonance for violence against civilians within the nationalist and Republican communities with what could well be perceived as the IRA's refusal to sacrifice their own members instantly making them appear both callous and cowardly in addition to the fact that a civilian had been coerced into this act.

Judgement Day · 16-07-2014 9:25am

feargale wrote: »

Would this thread not be more appropriately placed in the politics forum?

AH would be more suitable or Ranting & Raving.

pO1Neil · 16-07-2014 3:01pm

Jawgap wrote: »

Bloom and Horgan discuss the use of and indeed emphasise the fact that Catholic civilians were forced into becoming the mules in proxy attacks.......does this not suggest that there was an element of sectarianism in these incidents

Pg588

Were they picked because they were Catholics or because it would be harder to subdue a family in a Loyalists area? Wouldn't picking them specifically because they were Catholics be counter productive in terms of support for them?

Nobody is disagreeing the Proxy bomb was one of the most disgusting acts of the troubles but I would argue it wasn't sectarian

I think Dissidents picking out Catholic police men to shot is alot more sectarian than the Proxy bomb.

I was the one who brought thisw topic up now I'm being denounced as some sort of mad lunatic who agreed with these actions.

Jawgap · 16-07-2014 3:11pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

Were they picked because they were Catholics or because it would be harder to subdue a family in a Loyalists area? Wouldn't picking them specifically because they were Catholics be counter productive in terms of support for them?

Nobody is disagreeing the Proxy bomb was one of the most disgusting acts of the troubles but I would argue it wasn't sectarian

I think Dissidents picking out Catholic police men to shot is alot more sectarian than the Proxy bomb.

I was the one who brought thisw topic up now I'm being denounced as some sort of mad lunatic who agreed with these actions.

I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.

pO1Neil · 16-07-2014 4:10pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.

You totally dismiss my source for the BA report but you want to take you word for the Proxy bomb sources as being legit. Moving the goal posts from Madrid to Munich you are lol.

tac foley · 16-07-2014 4:30pm

Jawgap wrote: »

I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.

One Catholic who had the audacity to wash British military dishes and another who served petrol to members of the RUC in a public petrol station.....was there no end to their flagrant acts of 'treason'? :rolleyes:

'Let's blow 'em up, that'll teach 'em, eh, lads?'

pO1Neil · 16-07-2014 4:38pm

tac foley wrote: »

One Catholic who had the audacity to wash British military dishes and another who served petrol to members of the RUC in a public petrol station.....was there no end to their flagrant acts of 'treason'? :rolleyes:

'Let's blow 'em up, that'll teach 'em, eh, lads?'

I agree with that. That's why I don't think it's sectarian.

Another example they had no problem blowing up 8 Protestants who worked for the British at Teebane so they regarded anyone who helped the security forces in any sort of way as legit, nothing to do with religion.

Jawgap · 16-07-2014 4:56pm

The objective of the attacks was as much about dominating the Catholic community by fear as it was killing and murdering soldiers and policemen.

That's why it was 'important' to use a Catholic.

As for going into a Loyalist area......they seem to have had no problem picking off Protestant farmers......they didn't need to go into an urban area, unless that was part of the plan.

Incidentally - your 'source' was a rehashed Wikipedia page, mine a peer reviewed journal. Your quoting of the 'source' carries about as much credibility as me saying a 'well respected rugby coach reckons Jawgap will be taking over the Irish no.13 jersey'.........

steddyeddy · 17-07-2014 9:48pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

Republican propaganda is an odd thing.

Garbage Fred, absolute garbage. I take it that anyone who claims to be a loyalist such as the shankill butchers are representative of loyalists? Gusty Spence another loyalist condemned them which is weird because he's also a loyalist. Loyalist propaganda is a odd thing (by your logic anyway).

Lets be honest Fred you showed your true colours in regard to republicanism. You just can't stand the view point that Ireland should be a republic. Being a republican does not mean sectarian.

Fratton Fred · 19-07-2014 1:11am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Garbage Fred, absolute garbage. I take it that anyone who claims to be a loyalist such as the shankill butchers are representative of loyalists? Gusty Spence another loyalist condemned them which is weird because he's also a loyalist. Loyalist propaganda is a odd thing (by your logic anyway).

Lets be honest Fred you showed your true colours in regard to republicanism. You just can't stand the view point that Ireland should be a republic. Being a republican does not mean sectarian.

You obviously can't read, or you're stupid, or both.

Tell me where I claimed being republican meant being sectarian?

The ira, in fact the entire republican cause, has a merciless PR machine that turns antlything and everything in to anti British propaganda.

That's all I was saying. How you managed to come up with the rest of the garbage you posted is beyond me.

steddyeddy · 19-07-2014 3:46am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

You obviously can't read, or you're stupid, or both.

Tell me where I claimed being republican meant being sectarian?

The ira, in fact the entire republican cause, has a merciless PR machine that turns antlything and everything in to anti British propaganda.

That's all I was saying. How you managed to come up with the rest of the garbage you posted is beyond me.

Fred you said "republican propaganda" is a odd thing. You didn't mention IRA you said republican.

Fratton Fred · 19-07-2014 9:35am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Fred you said "republican propaganda" is a odd thing. You didn't mention IRA you said republican.

Same thing tbh.

Santa Cruz · 19-07-2014 10:09am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Same thing tbh.

IRA have no concept what Republicanism means

Jawgap · 19-07-2014 10:36am

Santa Cruz wrote: »

IRA have no concept what Republicanism means

True, but they've managed to hijack and corrupt the word so much that it's impossible for anyone to describe themselves as being a republican without being forever associated with the IRA.

Anyway, anyone living in the Republic of Ireland is a republican......(From Prof Murphy's recent piece in the Irish Times)....

The term “republicanism”, never off the lips of Sinn Féin speakers, originally meant, from the 1920s to the 1950s, anti-crown and anti-commonwealth. “A mad republican” was then a common phrase. The usage gradually changed after the formal proclamation in 1949 of the Republic of Ireland as the description of the 26-county State. From the outbreak of the Troubles in the late 1960s, “republican” came to mean a supporter of a united Ireland in general sympathy with the IRA. But for most republicans the armed struggle dimension is no longer a factor since the Belfast Agreement.

Over the years when someone such as Martin McGuinness referred to “republicans and nationalists”, he was presumed to mean Sinn Féin and SDLP followers, respectively. As used today, the phrase suggests “republican” is superior to “nationalist” and, by extension, to common Joe Soaps in parties in the Republic. A feature of Sinn Féin rhetoric is its pervasive air of self-righteousness and sanctimoniousness.

But nowadays the distinction between “republican” and “nationalist” is spurious. Not only that, but we are all “republicans” now and the distinctive and exclusive use of the term by any political party (including Fianna Fáil!) is meaningless if not hypocritical. Every citizen in the South lives in a republic, we subscribe to a non-monarchial form of government, we are in favour of territorial unity by peaceful means (just like Sinn Féin) and we profess the principles of social equality and civil rights. In short, we satisfy all the criteria of being “republican”. So how can Sinn Féin constantly claim to be more republican than the rest of us? Go ahead, ask them.

steddyeddy · 19-07-2014 12:37pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Same thing tbh.

Clear bias again.

Fratton Fred · 19-07-2014 5:41pm

steddyeddy wrote: »

Clear bias again.

How is it? The Irish republican movement and it's entire public relations/propaganda are pretty much monopolized by Sinn Fein, widely accepted as the political arm and public face of the IRA.

I fail to see what your issue is with my point.

SF spun everything they could. They defended the shoot to kill policy of the IRA, but then lambasted the RUC and the British army for supposedly doing the same thing.

Look at the hunger strikes? It is widely claimed that the IRA ordered the strikers to continue even after their demands were met, so that SF could gain maximum political capital out of it.

Republican propaganda, the IRA, Sinn Fein, it is all one and the same thing.

tac foley · 20-07-2014 8:46am

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Republican propaganda, the IRA, Sinn Fein, it is all one and the same thing.

Unpopular and distasteful those words might be to some who post here, but that is the way that most people who do NOT live in either the RoI or Northern Ireland view this cabal of [former] murderers and terrorists who seem, aginst all odds and evidence, to have somehow endeared themselves to a lot of people.

pO1Neil · 29-07-2014 7:28am

The thread was intended for less known sectarian attacks by Republicans not well known ones. Proxy bombs being sectarian or not is irrelevant, they were well known.

porsche959 · 29-07-2014 7:34am

steddyeddy wrote: »

Garbage Fred, absolute garbage. I take it that anyone who claims to be a loyalist such as the shankill butchers are representative of loyalists? Gusty Spence another loyalist condemned them which is weird because he's also a loyalist. Loyalist propaganda is a odd thing (by your logic anyway).

Lets be honest Fred you showed your true colours in regard to republicanism. You just can't stand the view point that Ireland should be a republic. Being a republican does not mean sectarian.

I don't know why anyone is responding to Fred Fratton at this point. It is fairly clear he is not interested in debating matters civilly. He is one of these Harrisite types that even 20 years into the peace process, sees Provos hiding everywhere. I respectfully suggest that others do what I did a long time ago and add him to ignore list. He is not doing the more level headed Unionist posters any service either when it comes down to it.

Fratton Fred · 29-07-2014 8:55pm

porsche959 wrote: »

I don't know why anyone is responding to Fred Fratton at this point. It is fairly clear he is not interested in debating matters civilly. He is one of these Harrisite types that even 20 years into the peace process, sees Provos hiding everywhere. I respectfully suggest that others do what I did a long time ago and add him to ignore list. He is not doing the more level headed Unionist posters any service either when it comes down to it.

Another one that has trouble reading I see.

jonniebgood1 · 29-07-2014 10:44pm

Stick to the topic folks.

If I suspect people are trying to goad others or trolling on this thread then they will be infracted. Nobody wishes to read comments that are personalised against any board members.

Moderator

DarkyHughes · 14-08-2014 8:46pm

Fratton Fred wrote: »

SF spun everything they could. They defended the shoot to kill policy of the IRA, but then lambasted the RUC and the British army for supposedly doing the same thing.
.

The RUC & Army were the ones claiming to be the "good" guys up holding the law. I'm pretty sure the IRA didn't have prison cells to put people into even if they would have done so.

There is an interesting documentary called "HItler's Britain" and how a secret guerrilla force of about 5000 was suppose to operate had the Nazi's conquered England. These British guerrillas didn't take any prisoners.

DarkyHughes · 14-08-2014 8:56pm

pO1Neil wrote: »

The thread was intended for less known sectarian attacks by Republicans not well known ones. Proxy bombs being sectarian or not is irrelevant, they were well known.

The IPLO was an openly sectarian force. Everyone knows the Kingsmill massacre but there were other attacks carried out by the Republican Action Force on a smaller scale. The Catholic Reaction Force (INLA cover name) carried out a few. There was a small group of Republicans called The Avengers who carried out a few.

Sectarian attacks by Republicans during the the Troubles.

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