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Sectarian attacks by Republicans during the the Troubles.

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  • 15-07-2014 1:17pm
    #1
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭


    When you here Republican sectarian attacks during the troubles Kingsmill comes to mind, maybe the INLA cover name the Catholic Reaction Force (who did maybe 5 attacks the most notable the Darkley shootings) in Response to the UVF's Protestant Reaction Force & that is usually it. They don't associate Republicans walking into pubs like the UDA & UVF used to & just shot the place up.

    But in the late 80's a breakaway group (not a front or cover name) from the INLA called the IPLO (Irish People's Liberation Organization) was formed. After a bloody war with the INLA the group established itself as major player & started to do what most Republican paramilitaries were doing attacking security force. But around 88-89 the Loyalists started high profile attacks on Catholic civilians again. Most republican paramilitaries like the IRA responded to these type of attacks by killing UVF & UDA men. But not the IPLO. In 1989 IPLO members walked into a East Belfast pub called the Orange Cross & just started shooting at anything that moved as far as I'm aware 3 died (maybe 4) in that attack with several more injured.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E35y6f726go


    1991 they carried out a similar attack in a so called "revenge" attack. 2 died in this one & several more injured.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1HT4iqSkSw


    In their next & last sectarian attack they were able to carry out they killed a pensioner in May 1992 just a few months before the IRA took the group out.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g1mzAo1HXLE




    They killed 12 innocent people & 2 UVF men in other similar attacks.

    The IRA forcibly disbanded them in October 1992 in a attack dubbed "The night of long knives" as the IRA purged this group killing it's leader & shooting several other in the legs & taken it's weapons & money. The IRA probably did it because the IPLO was claiming to be Republicans when most people in the Republican strongholds just thought of them as gangsters & drug dealers & ruing the Republican image which they were.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2xhALo0AFc


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67XP79pHNrI


    I think this is around the same time the IRA started "waging" a "war" against drug dealers using the name DAAD (Direct Action Against Drugs) to claim such attacks.


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    #2
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?


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    #3
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?

    If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

    Republican propaganda is an odd thing.


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    #4
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

    Republican propaganda is an odd thing.

    I don't think so, the IPLO wasn't very liked at all & were seen as hijacking the Republican movement to sell drugs. And it's ver unlikely the police would have shot him. By 1991 they had pretty much halted attacks on Crown forces & just shot Protestants & sold drugs so it's unlikely they would have engaged police or Army.

    And people didn't hail the IRA as heroes for killing him It was on the cards for sometime & was just seen as something that had to be got rid of. A bit like Billy Wright had to be got rid off for the peace process I don't think the INLA were hailed as heroe for that. Maybe when they carried out some daring raids like on Ballgalley Barracks, Loughgall, Derryard Checkpoint etc... they were sort of hailed as heroic because of the high risks involved but not for just shooting one individual.


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    #5
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    It is sort of Ironic the IRA could take out a huge drug gang in one night when it could take police years to do it. yeah I know killing anyone is bad but those anyone really feel bad for a leader of a drug gang who ordered sectarian killings?

    Feckin' laws eh? If we could just do away with a few of those pesky laws, things would be so much better......
    pO1Neil wrote: »
    I don't think so, the IPLO wasn't very liked at all & were seen as hijacking the Republican movement to sell drugs. And it's ver unlikely the police would have shot him. By 1991 they had pretty much halted attacks on Crown forces & just shot Protestants & sold drugs so it's unlikely they would have engaged police or Army.

    Post fact justification...........nothing to stop information being passed to the police on where the drugs were being stored and dealt.

    Frankly, I'm just glad when that pit of vipers turned on each other there were even more deaths of innocents in the crossfire......


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    #6
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Please stop hijacking the thread please people for your own political views. This Is History forum not politics forum.


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    #7
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Please stop hijacking the thread please people for your own political views. This Is History forum not politics forum.

    I've no intention go hijacking this, or any other, thread. In fact legitimising what happened by discussing it is something you can do with someone else.

    Incidentally, as you mention this is a History forum, so are there any reasonably objective sources you can point to that discuss your expressed opinions in more detail?

    Good luck.


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    #8
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Maybe when they carried out some daring raids like on Ballgalley Barracks, Loughgall, Derryard Checkpoint etc... they were sort of hailed as heroic because of the high risks involved but not for just shooting one individual.

    Didn't go too well at Loughgall, I seem to remember......and THAT is a historical fact.

    tac


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    #9
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    No 8 IRA men were killed at Loughgall but it was a high risk operation which is why it was regarded highly among nationalists & even British Army.


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    #10
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Feckin' laws eh? If we could just do away with a few of those pesky laws, things would be so much better......



    Post fact justification...........nothing to stop information being passed to the police on where the drugs were being stored and dealt.

    Frankly, I'm just glad when that pit of vipers turned on each other there were even more deaths of innocents in the crossfire......


    Talking about law & what to do with it, being glad paramilitaries turned on each other (which they didn't they were never with each other)
    That sounds political to me with a hint of sarcasm.


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    #11
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    I see Coshquin doesn't make it on to the 'heroic' list of operations.


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    #12
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    No 8 IRA men were killed at Loughgall but it was a high risk operation which is why it was regarded highly among nationalists & even British Army.

    Who on earth told you that? :eek::confused:

    tac


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    #13
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I see Coshquin doesn't make it on to the 'heroic' list of operations.

    Also letting your politics get in the way by liking the fact 8 men were killed at Loughgall.

    And most Republicans were sickened by Coshquin & it was not tried again. Yet more politics from you. That wasn't a sectarian attack either please dstay on topic.

    I want to talk about sectarian attacks not any mad random ones.


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    #14
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    The mass murder of the Miami Showband was an example of a sectarian killing.

    Mr Stone's fatal attack carried out on a funeral was a sectarian killing.

    The Loughgall incident was a PIRA action designed to slaughter members of the RUC and anyone else who happened to be around at the time.

    Some would call them patriots, others terrorists. This is not the place to say which category they and their actions come under.

    tac


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    #15
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Also letting your politics get in the way by liking the fact 8 men were killed at Loughgall.


    Live by the sword - die by the sword. I can't imagine the IRA volunteers would have offered much quarter so I'm not sure why they deserved any.
    pO1Neil wrote: »
    And most Republicans were sickened by Coshquin & it was not tried again. Yet more politics from you. That wasn't a sectarian attack either please dstay on topic.

    I want to talk about sectarian attacks not any mad random ones.

    Actually they tried it twice more. And there was nothing mad about them - they were chillingly premeditated.

    Also, maybe leave modding to the mods.....?


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    #16
    feargale
    Registered Users Posts: 8,636 ✭✭✭feargale


    Would this thread not be more appropriately placed in the politics forum?


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    #17
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    tac foley wrote: »
    Who on earth told you that? :eek::confused:

    tac

    A British army report admiring the guts after a similar attack.
    A senior British Military officer, when quizzed about the IRA attack said:


    They are murdering bastards, but they are not cowards. This team actually pressed home a ground attack right into the heart of the compound. That takes guts when there are people firing back.

    http://www.hermanh.be/Derryard%20Checkpoint%20Attack.html


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    #18
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Live by the sword - die by the sword. I can't imagine the IRA volunteers would have offered much quarter so I'm not sure why they deserved any.



    Actually they tried it twice more. And there was nothing mad about them - they were chillingly premeditated.

    Also, maybe leave modding to the mods.....?

    More politics stop hijacking my thread please.


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    #19
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    A British army report admiring the guts after a similar attack.



    http://www.hermanh.be/Derryard%20Checkpoint%20Attack.html

    A re-hash of a Wikipedia page? That's your source? :rolleyes:
    pO1Neil wrote: »
    More politics stop hijacking my thread please.


    Actually, it's not politics it's fact......

    As you seem to be a fan of Wikipedia you can read all about it here


    ........and here.....

    Missing Their Mark: The IRA's Proxy Bomb Campaign by Mia Bloom and John Horgan in Social Research Vol. 75, No. 2, Martyrdom, Self-Sacrifice, and Self-Denial (SUMMER 2008), pp. 579-614

    Your assertion that human proxy bombs were not tried again after Coshquin would seem to be somewhat at odds with historiography of Operation Banner.......


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    #20
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    More politics stop hijacking my thread please.

    Bloom and Horgan discuss the use of and indeed emphasise the fact that Catholic civilians were forced into becoming the mules in proxy attacks.......does this not suggest that there was an element of sectarianism in these incidents

    Pg588
    This time the IRA combined the use of a VBIED [vehicle-borne IED] with the coercion of Catholic [their emphasis] civilians. This at once reflected both a lack of resonance for violence against civilians within the nationalist and Republican communities with what could well be perceived as the IRA's refusal to sacrifice their own members instantly making them appear both callous and cowardly in addition to the fact that a civilian had been coerced into this act.


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    #21
    Judgement Day
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,549 ✭✭✭✭Judgement Day


    feargale wrote: »
    Would this thread not be more appropriately placed in the politics forum?

    AH would be more suitable or Ranting & Raving. :D


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    #22
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Jawgap wrote: »
    Bloom and Horgan discuss the use of and indeed emphasise the fact that Catholic civilians were forced into becoming the mules in proxy attacks.......does this not suggest that there was an element of sectarianism in these incidents

    Pg588

    Were they picked because they were Catholics or because it would be harder to subdue a family in a Loyalists area? Wouldn't picking them specifically because they were Catholics be counter productive in terms of support for them?

    Nobody is disagreeing the Proxy bomb was one of the most disgusting acts of the troubles but I would argue it wasn't sectarian

    I think Dissidents picking out Catholic police men to shot is alot more sectarian than the Proxy bomb.

    I was the one who brought thisw topic up now I'm being denounced as some sort of mad lunatic who agreed with these actions.


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    #23
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    pO1Neil wrote: »
    Were they picked because they were Catholics or because it would be harder to subdue a family in a Loyalists area? Wouldn't picking them specifically because they were Catholics be counter productive in terms of support for them?

    Nobody is disagreeing the Proxy bomb was one of the most disgusting acts of the troubles but I would argue it wasn't sectarian

    I think Dissidents picking out Catholic police men to shot is alot more sectarian than the Proxy bomb.

    I was the one who brought thisw topic up now I'm being denounced as some sort of mad lunatic who agreed with these actions.

    I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.


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    #24
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.

    You totally dismiss my source for the BA report but you want to take you word for the Proxy bomb sources as being legit. Moving the goal posts from Madrid to Munich you are lol.


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    #25
    tac foley
    Registered Users Posts: 5,504 ✭✭✭tac foley


    Jawgap wrote: »
    I think if you read the article, you'll see their argument as to why Catholics were selected.

    One Catholic who had the audacity to wash British military dishes and another who served petrol to members of the RUC in a public petrol station.....was there no end to their flagrant acts of 'treason'? :rolleyes:

    'Let's blow 'em up, that'll teach 'em, eh, lads?'


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    #26
    pO1Neil
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 354 ✭✭pO1Neil


    tac foley wrote: »
    One Catholic who had the audacity to wash British military dishes and another who served petrol to members of the RUC in a public petrol station.....was there no end to their flagrant acts of 'treason'? :rolleyes:

    'Let's blow 'em up, that'll teach 'em, eh, lads?'

    I agree with that. That's why I don't think it's sectarian.

    Another example they had no problem blowing up 8 Protestants who worked for the British at Teebane so they regarded anyone who helped the security forces in any sort of way as legit, nothing to do with religion.


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    #27
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,297 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    The objective of the attacks was as much about dominating the Catholic community by fear as it was killing and murdering soldiers and policemen.

    That's why it was 'important' to use a Catholic.

    As for going into a Loyalist area......they seem to have had no problem picking off Protestant farmers......they didn't need to go into an urban area, unless that was part of the plan.

    Incidentally - your 'source' was a rehashed Wikipedia page, mine a peer reviewed journal. Your quoting of the 'source' carries about as much credibility as me saying a 'well respected rugby coach reckons Jawgap will be taking over the Irish no.13 jersey'.........


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    #28
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    If the police had killed them, they would be martyrs and republicans would be naming GAA clubs after them. Because the IRA killed them, the IRA are heroes.

    Republican propaganda is an odd thing.

    Garbage Fred, absolute garbage. I take it that anyone who claims to be a loyalist such as the shankill butchers are representative of loyalists? Gusty Spence another loyalist condemned them which is weird because he's also a loyalist. Loyalist propaganda is a odd thing (by your logic anyway).

    Lets be honest Fred you showed your true colours in regard to republicanism. You just can't stand the view point that Ireland should be a republic. Being a republican does not mean sectarian.


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    #29
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Garbage Fred, absolute garbage. I take it that anyone who claims to be a loyalist such as the shankill butchers are representative of loyalists? Gusty Spence another loyalist condemned them which is weird because he's also a loyalist. Loyalist propaganda is a odd thing (by your logic anyway).

    Lets be honest Fred you showed your true colours in regard to republicanism. You just can't stand the view point that Ireland should be a republic. Being a republican does not mean sectarian.

    You obviously can't read, or you're stupid, or both.

    Tell me where I claimed being republican meant being sectarian?

    The ira, in fact the entire republican cause, has a merciless PR machine that turns antlything and everything in to anti British propaganda.

    That's all I was saying. How you managed to come up with the rest of the garbage you posted is beyond me.


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    #30
    steddyeddy
    Registered Users Posts: 27,564 ✭✭✭✭steddyeddy


    Fratton Fred wrote: »
    You obviously can't read, or you're stupid, or both.

    Tell me where I claimed being republican meant being sectarian?

    The ira, in fact the entire republican cause, has a merciless PR machine that turns antlything and everything in to anti British propaganda.

    That's all I was saying. How you managed to come up with the rest of the garbage you posted is beyond me.

    Fred you said "republican propaganda" is a odd thing. You didn't mention IRA you said republican.


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    #31
    Fratton Fred
    Closed Accounts Posts: 26,567 ✭✭✭✭Fratton Fred


    steddyeddy wrote: »
    Fred you said "republican propaganda" is a odd thing. You didn't mention IRA you said republican.

    Same thing tbh.


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