Beef General Thread

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 12:15am #1

Well lads we will give this a go and see what happens,
Heard today that what a lot of buyers are now looking at is the amount of owners on the blue card

Zr105 · 19-07-2014 12:23am

Charliebull wrote: »

Well lads we will give this a go and see what happens,
Heard today that what a lot of buyers are now looking at is the amount of owners on the blue card

Makes sense, it's probably going to be the next goal post the factories will throw in, QA already look for less than 4 moves.

larrymiller · 19-07-2014 12:27am

Does 4 movements not = 4 owners?

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 12:34am

larrymiller wrote: »

Does 4 movements not = 4 owners?

Would first movement not have 2 owners, you and purchaser

Genghis Cant · 19-07-2014 12:35am

Good man Charliebull. So this is the place where we come for a beef!

Hopefully this thread will keep us all at the cutting edge.
I tend to think the factories will use every excuse available to them to apply downward pressure on beef prices.

Anyone got a link as to exactly who are our customers for beef? A breakdown of where it ends up?

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 12:37am

Genghis Cant wrote: »

Good man Charliebull. So this is the place where we come for a beef!

Hopefully this thread will keep us all at the cutting edge.
I tend to think the factories will use every excuse available to them to apply downward pressure on beef prices.

Anyone got a link as to exactly who are our customers for beef? A breakdown of where it ends up?

Good question,

I said · 19-07-2014 12:39am

Charliebull wrote: »

Would first movement not have 2 owners, you and purchaser

1st move seller to mart,2nd move mart to buyer=two moves one sale.

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 12:41am

I said wrote: »

1st move seller to mart,2nd move mart to buyer=two moves one sale.

Very true if sold through mart, wonder is it a good or bad thing for weanling trade going forward

I said · 19-07-2014 12:48am

Charliebull wrote: »

Very true if sold through mart, wonder is it a good or bad thing for weanling trade going forward

Will affect it all right how it will is any bodies guess?if goalposts keep moving regarding spec for QA.

larrymiller · 19-07-2014 12:50am

Charliebull wrote: »

Would first movement not have 2 owners, you and purchaser

Yeah you're right! Doesn't really effect me to much in current set up!

Damo810 · 19-07-2014 1:22am

I thought it didn't include the mart the mart?

Kovu · 19-07-2014 1:53am

Damo810 wrote: »

I thought it didn't include the mart the mart?

Mmm, I could be mistaken here but I'm pretty sure it's the destination herd numbers which are the ones that are counted.
So if I had an animal unsold at the mart, the destination herd wouldn't change, therefore not a counted movement at the factory.
Marts use M150, M181 etc, you'll see it stamped on the back of the card. These shouldn't count as a herd number movement.

I'm sure someone can set us 100% straight on this though.

I said · 19-07-2014 5:36am

On Ag food website it tells you number of movements unless I'm reading it wrong it's seller to mart and mart to buyer are 2 movements.Correct me if I'm wrong.

TUBBY · 19-07-2014 7:38am

I said wrote: »

On Ag food website it tells you number of movements unless I'm reading it wrong it's seller to mart and mart to buyer are 2 movements.Correct me if I'm wrong.

this always seems to cause confusion. You are right. Ag food shows mart but for QA and factory, movements are by herd number so mart doesn't count.
animal to mart unsold is not a movement when killing.

Willfarman · 19-07-2014 8:30am

It's the number of owners you have to concern yourself with really. No more than 4. The cards don't always be wrote up so beware if buying privately,. It up on the board now in most marts.

jdmurf · 19-07-2014 8:41am

The mart is not counted as an owner... when the auction is over the animal transfers from seller to buyer never becoming property of the mart.

rangler1 · 19-07-2014 8:42am

Willfarman wrote: »

It's the number of owners you have to concern yourself with really. No more than 4. The cards don't always be wrote up so beware if buying privately,. It up on the board now in most marts.

I posted this before, in and out of rented sheds is two movement and isn't always on the card.
also I don't think buying in the mart is counted as two moves either

_Brian · 19-07-2014 9:00am

I'm sure this thread will be good for us all, with margins so low in beef anything learned is valuable.

Four moves sounds very reasonable. It allows for different enterprises in beef. If it were pushed down much more then it would be tight and turn beef into an enterprise where lads would need to be running from calving down straight to finished which isn't for all farms.

I said · 19-07-2014 9:02am

TUBBY wrote: »

this always seems to cause confusion. You are right. Ag food shows mart but for QA and factory, movements are by herd number so mart doesn't count.
animal to mart unsold is not a movement when killing.

That's it thanks for that

Willfarman · 19-07-2014 10:11am

When you look at an animal that's traded through a mart. Between buyer and sellers commission and transport it's €50 minimum.
Times 3 is €150.

With not a kilo added to the animal.

I said · 19-07-2014 10:20am

Willfarman wrote: »

When you look at an animal that's traded through a mart. Between buyer and sellers commission and transport it's €50 minimum.
Times 3 is €150.

With not a kilo added to the animal.

Yeah lads never think of that when buying stock at the mart at least €500 euro extra on every ten cattle finished.

adne · 19-07-2014 10:56am

I said wrote: »

Yeah lads never think of that when buying stock at the mart at least €500 euro extra on every ten cattle finished.

Yip. A lot of us only farming to keep the marts/coops and contractors in business

simx · 19-07-2014 10:56am

.Kovu. wrote: »

Mmm, I could be mistaken here but I'm pretty sure it's the destination herd numbers which are the ones that are counted.
So if I had an animal unsold at the mart, the destination herd wouldn't change, therefore not a counted movement at the factory.
Marts use M150, M181 etc, you'll see it stamped on the back of the card. These shouldn't count as a herd number movement.

I'm sure someone can set us 100% straight on this though.

Mart doesn't count, if unsold doesn't count either, even though it counts on agfood, only counts as a new movement if goes into another herd

freedominacup · 19-07-2014 11:06am

simx wrote: »

Mart doesn't count, if unsold doesn't count either, even though it counts on agfood, only counts as a new movement if goes into another herd

I hope this thread develops legs and has to be replaced by beef mark ii fairly quickly.

Agfood are going to have to tighten this up. It either is or isn't a movement. You can't have a situation where one body says it is and another says something else. Factories will use this as another rod for farmers backs if it isn't clarified. With margins so low it's hard to see a benefit in all of the movement that goes on.

just do it · 19-07-2014 11:14am

From a disease perspective the mart is most definitely a movement

Farmer Pudsey · 19-07-2014 11:22am

Willfarman wrote: »

When you look at an animal that's traded through a mart. Between buyer and sellers commission and transport it's €50 minimum.
Times 3 is €150.

With not a kilo added to the animal.

You are looking if kilo's are not lost. It the dealer messing that often causes this you see some lads that buy them stick them in a bare paddock for a month and they are lighter at the end. But I cannot see how it benefits store traders too many movements.

It a bit like a factory buying for feedlots it seem to benefit in the short term but long term it is an issue. The reality if finishers do not make a profit they will go out of business as finishing costs are now much higher with QA and under 30 months. The cannot absorb losses of 30-50 euro/animal over a large number of them.

While yes if both parties at the mart used hired transport it costs 40-50 euro an average of 35ish would be more realistic over all trades. So an animal that moves 3 time and go'es to the factory has over 100 euro in costs added to his tail, add in weight loss associated another 50-80 euro and it means that it is hard for even one owner to make money.

freedominacup wrote: »

I hope this thread develops legs and has to be replaced by beef mark ii fairly quickly.

Agfood are going to have to tighten this up. It either is or isn't a movement. You can't have a situation where one body says it is and another says something else. Factories will use this as another rod for farmers backs if it isn't clarified. With margins so low it's hard to see a benefit in all of the movement that goes on.

The sitution is quite clear at the start the usual factory messing went on where they tried it on with some naive sellers. But there is no issue at present. However some UK supermarkets want only two owners.

Muckit · 19-07-2014 11:32am

Willfarman wrote: »

When you look at an animal that's traded through a mart. Between buyer and sellers commission and transport it's €50 minimum.
Times 3 is €150.

With not a kilo added to the animal.

That's only sh*t talk lad. They are not all one mans costs. What about all the deductions on the factory kill sheet?

Lads are foolish if they think marts don't have a place in beef. They are the only place that you will get the true price for your stock. You are guaranteed your money what's more. I have no problem with mart fees. The cost is more than recouped by getting the right market price for your animal in the first place.

I'd encourage all farmers, especially small farmers with small numbers to sell all their cattle, especially factory fit cattle through their local mart. Don't get caught up with movements QA etc. It's a load of balls to try tie you up in a knot.

And don't you be worrying about how the buyer can afford to pay you that amount for your cattle when you wouldn't get the colour of it if you booked them in yourself. There seems to be a two tier system. And that's ok by me now that I know it. It's one price for the small guy and another for the big guy.

You don't get that sh*t going on in a mart.

I said · 19-07-2014 11:36am

The sitution is quite clear at the start the usual factory messing went on where they tried it on with some naive sellers. But there is no issue at present. However some UK supermarkets want only two owners.[/quote]

Was that not an issue with slat mats a while back only stock finished on them would be considered by a uk supermarket chain

Zr105 · 19-07-2014 11:48am

Muckit wrote: »

That's only sh*t talk lad. They are not all one mans costs. What about all the deductions on the factory kill sheet?

Lads are foolish if they think marts don't have a place in beef. They are the only place that you will get the true price for your stock. You are guaranteed your money what's more. I have no problem with mart fees. The cost is more than recouped by getting the right market price for your animal in the first place.

I'd encourage all farmers, especially small farmers with small numbers to sell all their cattle, especially factory fit cattle through their local mart. Don't get caught up with movements QA etc. It's a load of balls to try tie you up in a knot.

And don't you be worrying about how the buyer can afford to pay you that amount for your cattle when you wouldn't get the colour of it if you booked them in yourself. There seems to be a two tier system. And that's ok by me now that I know it. It's one price for the small guy and another for the big guy.

You don't get that sh*t going on in a mart.

I dont think he was ever trying to make a claim that it's all 1 mans cost, his point was that one way or the other those costs all have to come out of the price of the animal on the hook, yes it's broken down over the various people but it's still a cost from the hook weight, the very same as the deductions

_Brian · 19-07-2014 11:59am

Muckit wrote: »

That's only sh*t talk lad. They are not all one mans costs. What about all the deductions on the factory kill sheet?

Lads are foolish if they think marts don't have a place in beef. They are the only place that you will get the true price for your stock. You are guaranteed your money what's more. I have no problem with mart fees. The cost is more than recouped by getting the right market price for your animal in the first place.

I'd encourage all farmers, especially small farmers with small numbers to sell all their cattle, especially factory fit cattle through their local mart. Don't get caught up with movements QA etc. It's a load of balls to try tie you up in a knot.

And don't you be worrying about how the buyer can afford to pay you that amount for your cattle when you wouldn't get the colour of it if you booked them in yourself. There seems to be a two tier system. And that's ok by me now that I know it. It's one price for the small guy and another for the big guy.

You don't get that sh*t going on in a mart.

I agree..
Each man has to look at his own system and know what profit he can make on HIS farm with HIS system.. If your fit to make a profit your happy with then thats what counts.. the Mart is a tool to get you to your profit so the cost can be accounted for.

The way I see it with marts if you can get a well run show local to you its good. Stock aren't being hauled too far and its important that the dealers are kept under control..

Farmer Pudsey · 19-07-2014 12:07pm

_Brian wrote: »

I agree..
Each man has to look at his own system and know what profit he can make on HIS farm with HIS system.. If your fit to make a profit your happy with then thats what counts.. the Mart is a tool to get you to your profit so the cost can be accounted for.

The way I see it with marts if you can get a well run show local to you its good. Stock aren't being hauled too far and its important that the dealers are kept under control..

I see virtually no mart where dealers are under control. If you look along the west coast if a farmer from 80 miles away comes to buy the dealers will try to bully him off cattle, by bidding to above local value and even above market value. This may seem great to sellers on the day but unless he can come back to these marts 3-4 times then it continues. When the dealers know that they cannot bully him it then returns to local prices.

Multiple movements suited the dealers as they could offload anything even though they added no value. it is grand selling in a mart finished cattle if you have 2-3 bidding however I seldom see finished cattle make more in the mart than the factory.

I said · 19-07-2014 12:11pm

farawaygrass · 19-07-2014 12:18pm

the way i see it with movements is that when you hear you are allowed 4 movements its actually 4 owners. the first owner is the breeder and then you can sell three times.
ye are also correct in saying going to the mart is a movement, and then the buyers herd is another movement, but as i said it the owners that count so that sale would only go down as one change of owner.
sure by right all the lads showing cattle at shows, tullamore and the like have to notify the department about the movement. so it would be a movement out of your farm to the show and a movement back in again in the evening. mabye there is a limit on movements too, i never heard, but it has to be high and nowhere near 4.

simx · 19-07-2014 12:21pm

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

I see virtually no mart where dealers are under control. If you look along the west coast if a farmer from 80 miles away comes to buy the dealers will try to bully him off cattle, by bidding to above local value and even above market value. This may seem great to sellers on the day but unless he can come back to these marts 3-4 times then it continues. When the dealers know that they cannot bully him it then returns to local prices.

Multiple movements suited the dealers as they could offload anything even though they added no value. it is grand selling in a mart finished cattle if you have 2-3 bidding however I seldom see finished cattle make more in the mart than the factory.

its only the odd time i see finished cattle make more in mart than factory and its all a polling match between two rivals

I said · 19-07-2014 12:26pm

Dealers have it down to a fine art for buying finished stock at mart

larrymiller · 19-07-2014 12:28pm

I said wrote: »

Dealers have it down to a fine art for buying finished stock at mart

To right they do. They know exactly when to walk away

Farmer Pudsey · 19-07-2014 12:31pm

jdmurf wrote: »

The mart is not counted as an owner... when the auction is over the animal transfers from seller to buyer never becoming property of the mart.

Marts have been known to be left with cattle when the next bid after the RSJ at the back failed to materialise. Look it pretty simple in a mart look at number of owners and you see the situtation. However private buying is a minefield and there needs to be a punishment for those that fail to sing the baks of cards or under represent number of movements on same.

However of much more importance is that only 20% of cattle get QA. So it is not all it is cracked up to be. The gap between the price of an R- and a O- animal is 36c/kg. So lads on about difference in price between suckler and dairy bred cattle often look at R- to U- which is only 12c/kg.

If cattle quality fall to P= factory's again hit cattle with another 30-50c/kg. Cattle of this quality (O= and under) are hard to finish under 30 months so another 10c/kg.

I said · 19-07-2014 1:20pm

I have a few here that won't finish under 30 months stick weight on them and normally leave till 36 months and take the penalties as opposed to other way round all the same anyway.at the moment factories are paying as much for overage as underage always the same when supplies tighten.

Willfarman · 19-07-2014 1:31pm

Muckit wrote: »

That's only sh*t talk lad. They are not all one mans costs. What about all the deductions on the factory kill sheet?

Lads are foolish if they think marts don't have a place in beef. They are the only place that you will get the true price for your stock. You are guaranteed your money what's more. I have no problem with mart fees. The cost is more than recouped by getting the right market price for your animal in the first place.

I'd encourage all farmers, especially small farmers with small numbers to sell all their cattle, especially factory fit cattle through their local mart. Don't get caught up with movements QA etc. It's a load of balls to try tie you up in a knot.

And don't you be worrying about how the buyer can afford to pay you that amount for your cattle when you wouldn't get the colour of it if you booked them in yourself. There seems to be a two tier system. And that's ok by me now that I know it. It's one price for the small guy and another for the big guy.

You don't get that sh*t going on in a mart.

No it's not one mans cost. Nowhere did I say so.
And I agree if you have to sell before finish the mart is the place to do so.
However I can see no sense in any animal under 30 months old needing to be bought and sold more than 3 times.
I see no sense in bringing factory fit cattle to the mart.

Maybe things are different in other parts of the country but locally here the demand is best for QA assured young cattle. And if you are bringing cattle to the mart that are beyond the reach of farmers don't expect to find a fool among the factory agents.
They don't bid against each other. They just divide them between them.

blue5000 · 19-07-2014 2:04pm

I'm just wondering is there much of a future for marts if 4 moves comes in for QA? As it is don't cattle have to be on the farm for 70 days before slaughter to qualify QA?

I wonder will there ever be a premium from supermarkets for cattle that go from farm of birth straight to slaughter, is that one movement?

rangler1 · 19-07-2014 2:08pm

blue5000 wrote: »

I'm just wondering is there much of a future for marts if 4 moves comes in for QA? As it is don't cattle have to be on the farm for 70 days before slaughter to qualify QA?

I wonder will there ever be a premium from supermarkets for cattle that go from farm of birth straight to slaughter, is that one movement?

I think that Scottish Angus, which is the highest priced beef in the world apart from Wagyu. has that requirement.

Kovu · 19-07-2014 2:08pm

blue5000 wrote: »

I'm just wondering is there much of a future for marts if 4 moves comes in for QA? As it is don't cattle have to be on the farm for 70 days before slaughter to qualify QA?

I wonder will there ever be a premium from supermarkets for cattle that go from farm of birth straight to slaughter, is that one movement?

Is there a difference in the 70 days if it's a QA farm to QA farm private movement?

Willfarman · 19-07-2014 2:11pm

.Kovu. wrote: »

Is there a difference in the 70 days if it's a QA farm to QA farm private movement?

No the animal has to be in your herd for 70 days regardless of it origin.

blue5000 · 19-07-2014 2:24pm

I reckon the reason it has to be 70 days is for drug withdrawal period. I think ivomec super type drugs have 66 days withdrawal. If I gave an animal ivomec, then sold it in the mart after a week, the buyer has no way of knowing that the animal isn't fit for slaughter until 60 days after buying it. I'm just using ivomec as an example fluke doses could be longer.

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 3:00pm

Ah lads isn't good to get a sensible beef discussion going with a lot if the regulars ,

whelan2 · 19-07-2014 3:06pm

blue5000 wrote: »

I reckon the reason it has to be 70 days is for drug withdrawal period. I think ivomec super type drugs have 66 days withdrawal. If I gave an animal ivomec, then sold it in the mart after a week, the buyer has no way of knowing that the animal isn't fit for slaughter until 60 days after buying it. I'm just using ivomec as an example fluke doses could be longer.

am i right in saying that if you buy in an animal you have no way of knowing any of its previous treatments? With all the record keeping we have should it not be available to the new owner what withdrawal period they'e under?

simx · 19-07-2014 3:15pm

.Kovu. wrote: »

Is there a difference in the 70 days if it's a QA farm to QA farm private movement?

Factory I deal with sometimes won't penalize if you don't have 70 days in your herd so long as in last herd for 70 days and it was a QA herd

blue5000 · 19-07-2014 3:37pm

Charliebull wrote: »

Ah lads isn't good to get a sensible beef discussion going with a lot if the regulars ,

We should make it so that only ppl with >1000 posts (with current user name) can post in it:D

Charliebull · 19-07-2014 3:39pm

blue5000 wrote: »

We should make it so that only ppl with >1000 posts (with current user name) can post in it:D

Lol us new lads are out so,

moy83 · 19-07-2014 3:46pm

Charliebull wrote: »

Ah lads isn't good to get a sensible beef discussion going with a lot if the regulars ,

Yup its a good thread Charlie , fair play . I can see it geeting plenty of use .
What difference to the beef on the plate does the 70 days or less than 4 movements actually have ? It would be better swapped for longer hanging times to mature the meat better in the factories IMO

blue5000 · 19-07-2014 3:47pm

Your nearly half way there:pac:,

Anyway bit of self moderation, how are cattle thriving at grass this summer, any body weigh yet? Have a bunch of yearling heifers that were very slow to lose winter coats, and to my eye weren't thriving. Did a few bloods and low in Iodine, also some stomach worms present in the FEC. Started putting iodine in their water last week. Will dose them again this coming week.

Beef General Thread

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