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What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm
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Capt'n Midnight wrote: »Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.
All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.
As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?
Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.
Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789
LOL at background +5dB
http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).
Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans
In terms of the space argument - what I meant was - if you have a wind farm - and the turbines on it are spread over 1000 acres of land - how do you produce more wind power in that 1000 acres.
Another way to look at it would be - how might one REDUCE the percentage of land in the country that's required for wind farms
Heres one TDs description of what he found when he visited 2 houses where residents reported issues.
https://www.facebook.com/johnhalliganwaterford/posts/796506477080054
The description is the TDs OWN based on what HE found
Thing is - its not wind energy itself that concerns me - but when I hear of issues being reported - id like to see those with the relevant expertise in these matters actually get to the bottom of them.
Its what ive come to expect - in other areas - if the car gives issues - you expect them to be fixed (for example)
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Capt'n Midnight wrote: »Just a reminder that wind farms only take up the space required for the plinth.
All the other land can still be used for agriculture, forestry or tourism.
As someone who lives in an urban area you'll need to do a lot of convincing to get me to subsidise a level of background noise I won't have. Wasn't the statistic something like 40:1 in terms of costs of providing services to rural areas , mainly paid for by urbanites ?
Regarding the noise levels, can someone compare them to what urban dwellers have to put up ? I've lived in villages where nightly traffic noise interfered with sleep.
Just to remind people that wind turbine noise is only an annoyance, it's not remotely close to what most of us put up with every day.
From the World Health Organization
http://www.bbc.com/news/health-31661789
LOL at background +5dB
http://dublincitydevel.sonitussystems.com/
The latest averaged #noise level at Ballyfermot Civic Centre is 57.38 dB(A).
Noise maps http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-water-waste-and-environment/noise-maps-and-action-plans
Utterly irrelevant comparison given the normal background noise in rural areas compared to a city. As for windfarms and tourism. Try telling this lady her business can function next to a wind farm
http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/business/turbines-appalling-says-castle-owner-1-6260094
As for space takin up by wind farms. 250,000 acres of windfarm sprawl is needed to match the theoretical output of a conventional power station. Wind farms need an extensive network of pylons and service roads which adds to their ugly footprint in sensitive landscapes.
http://www.cfact.org/2013/11/02/u-k-takes-down-infographic-showing-footprint-of-nuclear-vs-renewables/0 -
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Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 90,827 Mod ✭✭✭✭
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At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"Old diesel wrote: »At the end of the day - its a tricky situation - we DO need to address climate - but people in homes actually have to live.
So how do we get the balance right - even if we may have to consider moving some people from their current one off houses - that's an issue in itself - because if someone needs to move out of their home - where do they move to - and who will pay for it.
Those supporting wind will say - residents can live in their current homes - that's fantastic
So how do we ensure that if we say people can continue living in their homes - how do we ensure this is the case.
After all - all we are doing in that scenario is ensuring that what we promise - is in fact delivered on.
The claim is that wind turbines won't interfere - soensuring this should thus be no problem
The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.
Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.
Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.
The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.
As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.
Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.
I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.
Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.
Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz0 -
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Capt'n Midnight wrote: »At this stage I'd nearly ask if you are a SF supporter because you keep asking the same questions without proposing any sort of solutions other than "No Surrender"
The balance is simple. A good compromise is when everyone is equally dissatisfied, and with pylons and turbines we have objective measurements of distance, noise, electrical field etc. I suppose where we differ is that when I refer to everyone I include those in urban areas who have to put up with similar stuff and whose bills are affected.
Just to reiterate, you can't put wind turbines closer together because it affects the air flow.
Same way if you landing at an airport in a learjet you want to stay at least 8 miles behind an Airbus 380.
The only way to get more power is to interact with more air. This usually means taller turbines with longer blades, there's also more energy higher up so you get that bonus too.
Yes you can add ducts or add more blades but then you are seriously into eyesore territory , you also get more noise because more turbulence , and it's also more expensive. There's a reason why three blade turbines totally dominate the wind industry.
As for moving people the last resort would be a compulsory purchase order. Not an ideal option but it means people can't stonewall forever. Other options are treble glazing and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees and of course compo. Sometimes I think the last option is key to some protesters.
Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.
I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.
Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.
Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz
No what id like is for solutions - not just wind - to actually improve.
The problem isn't ME, rural residents, people with concerns about wind.
The problem is a shoddy poor wind industry - that's what needs to change.
Wind turbines are here to stay - regardless of what me or anyone else thinks of them.
I actually want the damn things to develop over time - I don't expect to see a wind turbine 10 feet from another - that's unrealistic.
That's why i said when we have wind turbines spread over 1000 acres - that that we look at how to get more power from that 1000 acres.
You and I disagree - its no problem - we have a different outlook on things - i may well be wrong
I have just become accustomed to things ALWAYS improving whether its cars, tractors, lorries, computers and other stuff.
I accept we need to change - that's why i alluded to people moving - and moving away from one off houses.
If you were to reduce the amount of communities out there - you might actually free up space for wind turbines - whether that's a good idea or not is something open to debate - and the question - is how would one do this fairly.0 -
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30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)Capt'n Midnight wrote: »... Other options are treble glazing
does not work
a) you should be allowed to open you windows when you want
b) triple glazing will not stop for example a frequency of 167Hz which has a wave length of 17,000Km !!
that can take 30 years
and other noise mitigation strategies like planting trees
as an ex Londoner - you have to look at the whole soundscape - in London there are all sort of noises - in the country there are very few - so there is little to mask the noise of wind turbines.... Moving houses is easy, do a house swap with people from Dublin West. If they can put up with the urban noise and the pylons.
may well be true in some cases - but not all by any means
I'm a strong believer in the nocebo effect, especially if there is the prospect of compo.
won't work due to frequency (and making you go to the loo all night !!)
Other ways of reducing the noise would be to mask it with white noise, this could be done with a water feature though I'm not sure of the frequencies.Adding those panels they use in sound studios would also reduce the noise in homes. Or the panels they use at the side of motorways
http://www.sae.edu/reference_material/pages/Coefficient%20Chart.htm
Pageboard over 75mm(3") fiberglass board will absorb 99% at 250Hz
But I want to open my windows0 -
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30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)
because when I come from Hammersmith to here I think its quiet initially - until the ear adjustsI’m not sure what that has to do with anything?
no they are based on the current noise guidelines used to build wind farms and the ETSU-R-97 guidance documentsMost of the levels in your poll are fairly arbitrary, right?
not so 6db is a 1.5 the loudnessI mean, audible perception is pretty subjective. As I’ve already stated earlier in the thread, a difference of the order of 5dB is unlikely to make a massive difference to anyone’s quality of life.
double the sound pressure
and 4 time the sound intensity
Now that is the big "depends"Roughly doubling the minimum guideline distance between turbines and dwellings, and significantly reducing available land for turbines in the process, for the sake of reducing ambient noise by about 5 – 7 dB, doesn’t seem like a sensible trade-off to me.
depends if you live in a city and think the country is quiet
or
as people round here have
live in the country for 100's of years and hate the city as its a place with its continuous cacophony of noise with no peace0 -
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