What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm

Old diesel · 09-03-2015 4:29pm

Markcheese wrote: »

"But I want to open my windows"

Do so .

Rural Ireland is a changing soundscape - different sounds now tractors - slurry tankers- milking machine vacuum pumps( there's a sound that travels) , forestry can be fairly noisey too - neighbours dogs drive me nuts - I'd agree that noise reduction and remediation are a good move but would question wether wind development should cease or be made unfeasable because of reasonable noise -
Also since most turbines are high up and in isolated areas they're going to impact relatively few people - so planting and noise reduction fences can help but not if someone one insists on sleeping on a high platform as near as possible to a turbine with a gramophone trumpet in each ear waiting to be disturbed by something -anything -
That said if the turbine has been poorly installed/ sited and causes a major disturbance to a neighbour there has to be some comeback -

Its not a case of saying wind turbines should stop - in fact I expect them to keep coming on line - regardless of what I or others might think of them

Rather its a case (for me) of how do we improve them in terms of any issues they might cause.

And taking a wider approach in terms of our general planning - looking at energy, looking at how people live - and so on.

I think ive already mentioned in this thread - about the need to move away from one off houses.

Something causing noise - BUT NOT interfering with important things like sleep - that's fine.

If something causes issues with sleep (for example) - then that's an issue because sleep is important.

Again the thread was about what the noise levels should actually be.

Its a case really of defining what exactly is okay - and whats not okay - one can't always have what you want - but being able to live okay in your own home and sleep in it - that should be a reasonable expectation.

House in the wrong place - ie a one off house - fair enough - BUT the people in it still need to be able to get on with their living without SERIOUS issues

Capt'n Midnight · 09-03-2015 6:22pm

fclauson wrote: »

b) triple glazing will not stop for example a frequency of 167Hz which has a wave length of 17,000Km !!

Actually it's 2 meters.

And I mentioned the dampening stuff that you use in sound studios to mitigate any noise that gets in.

fclauson · 09-03-2015 9:09pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Actually it's 2 meters.

You are right of course - sound does not travel at the speed of light :rolleyes: but if it did I would still have been wrong as its 1784478.917meters

djpbarry · 11-03-2015 3:31pm

fclauson wrote: »

From you info you live in Wandsworth - which is a far cry from rural Ireland.

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything?

fclauson wrote: »

We are not saying that rural living people should never experience noise whatsoever - but the noise level change has to not impact the amenity a dwelling.

Fair enough, but you’re comparing the noise from a wind turbine with the noise from road traffic. In a rural area. At night. When there is presumably little to no traffic. And, therefore, little or no noise from traffic. That’s not a reasonable comparison.

fclauson wrote: »

The question is what is an acceptable level - hence the poll

Most of the levels in your poll are fairly arbitrary, right? I mean, audible perception is pretty subjective. As I’ve already stated earlier in the thread, a difference of the order of 5dB is unlikely to make a massive difference to anyone’s quality of life. Roughly doubling the minimum guideline distance between turbines and dwellings, and significantly reducing available land for turbines in the process, for the sake of reducing ambient noise by about 5 – 7 dB, doesn’t seem like a sensible trade-off to me.

fclauson · 12-03-2015 9:45am

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

djpbarry wrote: »

I’m not sure what that has to do with anything?

because when I come from Hammersmith to here I think its quiet initially - until the ear adjusts

Most of the levels in your poll are fairly arbitrary, right?

no they are based on the current noise guidelines used to build wind farms and the ETSU-R-97 guidance documents

I mean, audible perception is pretty subjective. As I’ve already stated earlier in the thread, a difference of the order of 5dB is unlikely to make a massive difference to anyone’s quality of life.

not so 6db is a 1.5 the loudness
double the sound pressure
and 4 time the sound intensity

Roughly doubling the minimum guideline distance between turbines and dwellings, and significantly reducing available land for turbines in the process, for the sake of reducing ambient noise by about 5 – 7 dB, doesn’t seem like a sensible trade-off to me.

Now that is the big "depends"
depends if you live in a city and think the country is quiet
or
as people round here have
live in the country for 100's of years and hate the city as its a place with its continuous cacophony of noise with no peace

Old diesel · 12-03-2015 11:38am

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/doctors-call-for-reductionin-turbine-noise-317947.html

The 30 db idea gets a mention - and its referred to as a WHO recommendation

At the end of the day - what is a good outcome for residents - and what can the wind industry do better to help ensure a good outcome

Old diesel · 12-03-2015 12:07pm

To me ensuring wind turbines DON'T cause issues - shouldn't be an issue for those who support wind - for the simple reason that all they would be doing is ensuring the turbines perform as they say they will.

In other words wind developers and the wind industry are claiming the turbines won't cause issues - so it should be okay then to ENSURE this is the case.

Its like a car manufacturer claiming that its cars are very reliable - how do they ensure the cars thus perform for reliability as youd expect from a car that's very reliable.

The wind energy scenario is the same - you say they won't cause issues - fabulous - now work to ensure that's what actually happens - that's what will build confidence in the technology

djpbarry · 12-03-2015 1:53pm

fclauson wrote: »

no they are based on the current noise guidelines used to build wind farms and the ETSU-R-97 guidance documents

They’re still arbitrary. Similarly, recommended limits on alcohol consumption are based on medical evidence, but they’re still arbitrary.

fclauson wrote: »

not so 6db is a 1.5 the loudness
double the sound pressure
and 4 time the sound intensity

Yeah, I know how logarithms work, thanks. It doesn’t counter my point though. If something really quiet becomes 50% louder, it’s still going to be really quiet.

fclauson wrote: »

Now that is the big "depends"
depends if you live in a city and think the country is quiet
or
as people round here have
live in the country for 100's of years and hate the city as its a place with its continuous cacophony of noise with no peace

So despite all the figures you keep throwing around in an attempt to ground your argument in science, this is what it all boils down to?

Old diesel · 12-03-2015 2:31pm

A big issue here - is why are we breaching WHO guidelines

Are WHO guidelines too low - and if they are - what is a REASONABLE noise limit to ensure residential amenity is protected - and people can live happily - normally - in their homes.

Its hard for someone to trust the guidance of someone - policy maker, wind developer and others whose interest is getting as many wind turbines in place - if that guidance is higher then WHO limits.

At best theres a question mark - and its for someone proposing higher limits to PROPERLY demonstrate why their higher noise levels are okay when the WHO is recommending a LOWER limit.

How do we resolve the question mark - and ensure that turbines are in fact trouble free - which is what the industry THEMSELVES would claim - so ensuring trouble free operation shouldn't be an issue

fclauson · 12-03-2015 4:36pm

30 dB(A) Laeq (WHO target night time limit)

Medical support for the numbers: http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/doctors-call-for-reductionin-turbine-noise-317947.html

What should the permitted wind noise levels be from a wind farm

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