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Hijab, Niqab or Nothing interview

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    #152
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    dead one wrote: »
    The basic rule is that a female should remain at home, and not go out except for necessary purposes.
    “And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance”
    [al-Ahzaab 33:33]
    do you see ignorance around.... How men are doing business at the bodies of women...

    That's quoted out of context - the previous verse makes it clear that this is addressed only to the wives of the Prophet. Here is verse 32 in the Mohsin Khan translation (which is the one you are using):

    "O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner."

    Verse 33 reads, in full:

    "And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat­as­Salat), and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove Ar­Rijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet SAW), and to purify you with a thorough purification." (emphasis added)


    I find it difficult to understand how obligations that are clearly imposed only on Muhammad's wives should be generalised to apply to all women at all times and places.


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    #153
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    hivizman wrote: »
    That's quoted out of context - the previous verse makes it clear that this is addressed only to the wives of the Prophet. Here is verse 32 in the Mohsin Khan translation (which is the one you are using):

    "O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner."

    Verse 33 reads, in full:

    "And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat­as­Salat), and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove Ar­Rijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet SAW), and to purify you with a thorough purification." (emphasis added)


    I find it difficult to understand how obligations that are clearly imposed only on Muhammad's wives should be generalised to apply to all women at all times and places.
    Hi hivizman,
    You can read that verse in every context...

    the verse is addressed to the household/wives of the Prophet but it also applies to the Muslim women. It is only addressed to the wives of the Prophet because of their honour and status with the Messenger of Allaah , and because they are examples for the believing women.
    I never said women aren't allowed to go outside, but for necessary purpose...


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    #154
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    dead one wrote: »
    Hi hivizman,
    You can read that verse in every context...

    the verse is addressed to the household/wives of the Prophet but it also applies to the Muslim women.

    "You are not like any other women."

    ...seems to be pretty clear.

    P.


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    #155
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    "You are not like any other women."

    ...seems to be pretty clear.

    P.
    oceanclub, you forget, This is why most people are not leading exemplary lives.


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    #156
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    off course I said it, doesn't it mean the statement apply to all westren women... there are muslim women living in west... Does it mean i also include them... your point is very weak....

    I said "Without knowing anything else about western women, you declare them as mistresses or concubines simply for not adhering to hijab", so obviously I'm not including muslim women in the west who do wear the hijab. You need to do better than deny what you are saying for two posts, then strawman my point. Your position is that a woman who does not adhere to hijab is, by default, a mistress or concubine.
    dead one wrote: »
    Are you saying that there are no concubines or mistress in western society... Or your society hasn't made women as "society butterflies"---
    watch this video and see the indoctrination process
    http://vimeo.com/12030156
    The poor woman, in the video, thinks, she will get more respect, if she uses her body as mean to control nerve of hungry men...Isn't it proof of the above statement...

    Its not proof. Yes there are women who use their looks to get ahead in life (just like some men do) but that doesn't mean that women who do not adhere to Hijab automatically are trying to use their looks to gain an advantage of some sort or entice men.
    dead one wrote: »
    Are you justifying advertising of women... The wrong is in your western society... Where one women have relation with 10 men... Where infants are killed in bellies... A society on desires.... A society purely based on wishful thinking....

    Can you please answer my questions before going off on some tangent? Why is it only wrong for a woman to be used to sell something? Why not a man? Why is it that the only options you see are pious hijab-wearing woman or abortion-collecting mistress?
    dead one wrote: »
    If a woman is attractive naturally then offcoure it's not her fault... I have no problem with it.... I have problem with women who cheat other to become attractive.... I mean by doing makeup / surgery etc... and you will note majority of women living in your society cheat other people in order to become attractive ... Now tell how am i wrong..... What this process of indoctrination... Why doesn't she think... The beauty lies in character.... If a black women has a strong character, If she doesn't cheat other then she is beautifully all the wasted mistress/celebrities of world... Her blackness isn't ruler to measure her beauty but it is her character.....

    You seem to be working under the assumption that muslim women dont war makeup, but they do, even under burkas. You do realise that a lot of women wear make-up, not just to attract men, but because it makes them feel better and more presentable. Don't you wash your face and brush your hair? Don't you trim your beard? Are you cheating anyone by cleaning up?
    And even if makeup was cheating, how is a head scarf or face veil not the ultimate cheat? It obscures everything natural about a womans appearance far more than face powder or mascara.
    dead one wrote: »
    have you noticed, there is only one man in the this commercial, majority are women...So how commercial is advertising the man... This is also cheating-- Cheating common folk about the product... Do you think it is good to cheat other by making such commercials... The commercial is of 45 sec... and you will note, in 30 sec only women were shown... Such a shame...

    :confused: Do you think the ad is aimed at men? Its an ad using the man's sexual attractiveness to sell a drink directed at women. Its irrelevant how many men there are (there are plenty of ads with only one women in them selling stuff), its irrelevant that he only appears two thirds into the ad (ads aimed at women tend to try to make a story as well as use sexual imagery to sell). The ad uses a man's sexual attractiveness to sell a drink to women, and its hardly the one to do so.
    The sexual attractiveness of men can be used to sell something as easily as women. This ad is an example, and, as I mentioned before, boy bands are another. The issues you throw out about women being used for advertising should equally apply to men, because men are equally used for advertising.
    But they don't, because you have a bias against women in this respect.
    dead one wrote: »
    If that is case then in America there are lot of unregistered cases.. what about them...

    The number in the countries I noted would be a lot higher. In America, the number is low because of social stigma and because of the belief of the victim that they can't prove their case. In the countries I mentioned, the victim is likely to be prosecuted for being a victim, with jail time and/or marriage to the rapist as punishment. Honestly, which country do you think has a much higher number of cases not reported?
    dead one wrote: »
    School is a thing where children learn... There is difference between learning and working..... and timing of school and of work are different... there is lot of difference between timing of school and work...

    You can still learn while you work. And, for most things, doing what you have already learned and have experience in is usually easier than learning it in the first place. Then you have secondary schools which run for about 6 hours a day (not far off 8 hour you have to do for most jobs) and third level which can be a lot more than 8 hours (when you factor in study).
    dead one wrote: »
    you statement is true only in short term... In long term, work become a suffering....

    Again, for many people this is not the case. Even if it were true, just change job. Many people do. Many jobs change for people over time, as the environment they work in changes or if they get promoted.
    dead one wrote: »
    men, are physically stronger than woman, can do a lot of work as compared to women.... woman, during their periods, can't work long..... You are suggesting that women should go out and while men should rest... I am have send shame on power of such men....

    Its amazing how many women in the west can go to school or works as doctors, surgeons, teachers, accountants etc despite being having their periods every month (as far as I know women dont take one week in four off) :rolleyes:. Do you think staying at home, raising kids and managing a house isn't work?
    dead one wrote: »
    No i don't think, but it can be one of the reason... Isn't it good to finish one reason which leads people to cheat other...

    No, because work is not a reason to cheat, its an environment where cheating can arise. And seeing as cheating should be at the back of your mind when you work, if you cheat its entirely your fault, nothing to do with work. If we followed your logic, no-one should ever work for fear of even meeting someone on the way work who you could cheat with.


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    #157
    RichieC
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭RichieC


    dead one wrote: »
    to create a pious society in the world and Ireland will be that place... The place i see for my dreams... What do you think??... We will stop advertisement of women... we will stop this cheating/sh!tty business.. The business lead by fool men....... We will create a society, Where a woman will be treated as relation not as an object....... I can see you're not listing but your children and grand children will understand my poor English..... A society free of blue witches ;)

    How about this, Dead one. You keep your faith in your home and mosque and treat the women you manage to hoodwink into your life as you wish and leave society at large alone. We'll get on much better.


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    #158
    bennyineire
    Registered Users Posts: 2,466 ✭✭✭bennyineire


    I'm an Irish secular guy how was brought up Catholic but I'm borderline somewhere between Christain and agnostic, If your interested I will tell you my view, I go to college at Athlone I.T. and I personallu have no problem wit the Hijab ( One of my classmates wears one) but I have to say the the Niqab certainly attracts more attention, there are about three women who wear the niqab in our college and they hang around together, i can tell you from personall expierance that evertime people see them, they make remarks about them even lecturer's, I have to say the niqab looks totaly out of place, maybe you might call me me a zenephobe but I see no place for the niqab in Ireland


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    #159
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    dead one wrote: »
    Hi hivizman,
    You can read that verse in every context...

    the verse is addressed to the household/wives of the Prophet but it also applies to the Muslim women. It is only addressed to the wives of the Prophet because of their honour and status with the Messenger of Allaah , and because they are examples for the believing women.
    I never said women aren't allowed to go outside, but for necessary purpose...

    Please give us some evidence to back up what I've highlighted in your quote above. I disagree with this so prove it to me.


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    #160
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Please give us some evidence to back up what I've highlighted in your quote above. I disagree with this so prove it to me.
    Dear irishconvert,
    The first addressee of Quran is Muhammad and second addressee of quran is whole Muslim ummah. Similarly the first addressee of above verse are wives of prophet and second addressee are Muslim women.. Why is Allah guiding the wives of Prophet, why are they not ordinary women because their lives are example for ordinary women... See, in short, Muslim women aren't forbidden from going out in the community, working, or visiting relatives and female friends, if there is no objection from their guardian/husband and they are covered and behave and speak according to Islamic guidelines and, if necessary, escorted by their Mahram (a close male relative). However, a woman’s home should be the main base that she works from. see in detail what hivizman has quoted...
    hivizman wrote: »
    That's quoted out of context - the previous verse makes it clear that this is addressed only to the wives of the Prophet. Here is verse 32 in the Mohsin Khan translation (which is the one you are using):

    "O wives of the Prophet! You are not like any other women. If you keep your duty (to Allah), then be not soft in speech, lest he in whose heart is a disease (of hypocrisy, or evil desire for adultery, etc.) should be moved with desire, but speak in an honourable manner."

    Verse 33 reads, in full:

    "And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance, and perform As-Salat (Iqamat­as­Salat), and give Zakat and obey Allah and His Messenger. Allah wishes only to remove Ar­Rijs (evil deeds and sins, etc.) from you, O members of the family (of the Prophet SAW), and to purify you with a thorough purification." (emphasis added)


    The Qur'an states that both men and women are equal, but also, as in 4:34, that "Men are the protectors and maintainers of women because God has given the one more (strength) than the other and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient and guard in (the husband's) absence what God would have them guard."

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_in_Islam
    Now, please answer few questions -- keeping Islam in mind
    Is it allowed for a woman to go outside without permission of their husband... if it is allowed what is reference for that, if not allowed what is reference for that -- I mean where were these principles derived from -- what are sources of these basic principle..
    2. Can a woman work in mufti environment. -- If she can then from where this principle is derived--if she cant' then what is reference for that--
    3. Why base of work for a woman is house in Islam... Where is this principle drives from...
    4. If i quoted above verses out of context then what is wrong with woman dancing in movies, daramas, songs... Is it allowed for women in Islam?...
    5. If the verse doesn't apply to all Muslim women then what is wrong to have girlfriend and boyfriend...
    6. If the verse doesn't apply to all muslim women then what is purpose of Hijab... Where is hijab drived from... I mean the basic principle which makes women women to do hijab...
    7. Why hijab in islam is necessary for women, if the verse doesn't apply to all muslim women...


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    #161
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    RichieC wrote: »
    How about this, Dead one. You keep your faith in your home and mosque and treat the women you manage to hoodwink into your life as you wish and leave society at large alone. We'll get on much better.
    My faith is a torch which shows me light in the days full of darkness.. The days in which sister/mothers/daughter are being sold in the name of freedom... The days where brothers advertise their own sisters...
    RichieC wrote: »
    We'll get on much better.
    Sickness isn't cure..


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    #162
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    I said "Without knowing anything else about western women,
    what else should i know, cheating is very common, advertising of woman is very common... Isn't it butterfly culture... In every movie, there is same addiction to pussy... It is ruining minds and heart of your youth... Still you're in state of denial.. Mark Hamil, it's time for men like you to take stand other wise your civilization will suicide with its own dagger...
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    you declare them as mistresses or concubines simply for not adhering to hijab", so obviously I'm not including muslim women in the west who do wear the hijab. You need to do better than deny what you are saying for two posts, then strawman my point. Your position is that a woman who does not adhere to hijab is, by default, a mistress or concubine.
    That's the ultimate status which your society has given to women in the name of freedom... and life of every women is orbiting around the same circle--- There is cheating everywhere... Father are treated as second class citizen... Children don't respect their father... Children are being brainwashed by watching stupid movies, the movies makers want money and in this struggle they are destroying minds of your generation by displaying and glorifying pussy/dick relation in the innocent minds... A society being sacrificed at altar of desires.. S
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Can you please answer my questions before going off on some tangent? Why is it only wrong for a woman to be used to sell something? Why not a man? Why is it that the only options you see are pious hijab-wearing woman or abortion-collecting mistress?
    Both cases are wrong.. The commercial system of media is purely based on cheating... It's cheating if you don't tell demerits of your products.. I am against advertising of men and women.... A society based on wishful thinking... where every rich fish is struggling to live at the blood of poor fish
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    You seem to be working under the assumption that muslim women dont war makeup, but they do, even under burkas. You do realise that a lot of women wear make-up, not just to attract men, but because it makes them feel better and more presentable. Don't you wash your face and brush your hair? Don't you trim your beard? Are you cheating anyone by cleaning up?
    Practicing muslim women don't display them like days of ignorance... As they are instructed through Quran.... There is disease of hypocrisy..
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    And even if makeup was cheating, how is a head scarf or face veil not the ultimate cheat? It obscures everything natural about a womans appearance far more than face powder or mascara.
    The intentions behind hijab are pure... that's why hijab isn't cheating.. Women do makeup to get attraction or to look beautiful... There aren't such intention behind hijab.. there is no competitive advantage in hijab...
    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    The ad uses a man's sexual attractiveness to sell a drink to women, and its hardly the one to do so.


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    #163
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    dead one wrote: »
    Now, please answer few questions -- keeping Islam in mind
    Is it allowed for a woman to go outside without permission of their husband... if it is allowed what is reference for that, if not allowed what is reference for that -- I mean where were these principles derived from -- what are sources of these basic principle..
    2. Can a woman work in mufti environment. -- If she can then from where this principle is derived--if she cant' then what is reference for that--
    3. Why base of work for a woman is house in Islam... Where is this principle drives from...
    4. If i quoted above verses out of context then what is wrong with woman dancing in movies, daramas, songs... Is it allowed for women in Islam?...
    5. If the verse doesn't apply to all Muslim women then what is wrong to have girlfriend and boyfriend...
    6. If the verse doesn't apply to all muslim women then what is purpose of Hijab... Where is hijab drived from... I mean the basic principle which makes women women to do hijab...
    7. Why hijab in islam is necessary for women, if the verse doesn't apply to all muslim women...

    The authority for most of the above points (as I'm sure you know perfectly well) is surat an-Nur 24:31 (in the Saheeh International translation):

    "And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed."

    It is quite clear from various verses in the Qur'an that particular rights and obligations were reserved for Muhammad alone (for example, the right to have more than four wives). Does that mean that the same applies to the wives of Muhammad - that there are rights and obligations that relate to them alone? There are differences of opinion about this. Some commentators take the view that the obligations imposed in Surat al-Ahzaab 33:32-33 apply not only to the wives (or household) of the Prophet but, by extension, to all women. Others argue that Surat al-Ahzaab 33:32-33 imposes obligations only on the wives or the household of the Prophet, but at the same time they suggest that the verses set out behaviour that it is desirable for other women to follow. But they would draw a line here, and not make desirable behaviour into obligations.

    Whether women should or should not be able to work outside the home, or even to leave the home, is an interesting topic, which probably deserves a separate thread.


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    #164
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Dear hivizman
    hivizman wrote: »
    "And tell the believing women to reduce [some] of their vision and guard their private parts and not expose their adornment except that which [necessarily] appears thereof and to wrap [a portion of] their headcovers over their chests and not expose their adornment except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands' fathers, their sons, their husbands' sons, their brothers, their brothers' sons, their sisters' sons, their women, that which their right hands possess, or those male attendants having no physical desire, or children who are not yet aware of the private aspects of women. And let them not stamp their feet to make known what they conceal of their adornment. And turn to Allah in repentance, all of you, O believers, that you might succeed."
    where is difference if you compare above verse with --
    "
    And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance” [al-Ahzaab 33:33].
    Islam is filled with evidence that women stay in their homes and avoid going out except when necessary-- I mean the principle is drived from same verse and it also applies to believing women...


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    #165
    hivizman
    Registered Users Posts: 1,163 ✭✭✭hivizman


    dead one wrote: »
    Dear hivizman

    where is difference if you compare above verse with --

    I don't think that we are going to agree on this point. The verse in Surat an-Nur is addressed to the "believing women" (waqul-lil'mu'minaati). The verses in Surat al-Ahzaab are addressed to "the wives of the Prophet" (yaanisaa-al nabiyi) (verse 32) or to "the people of the household" (ahl al-bayt) (verse 33).
    dead one wrote: »
    Islam is filled with evidence that women stay in their homes and avoid going out except when necessary-- I mean the principle is derived from same verse and it also applies to believing women...

    I don't deny that, in practice, in many Muslim societies, women have tended to stay in their homes and avoided going out except when necessary. What I am questioning is whether the wording of Surat al-Ahzaab makes such conduct obligatory rather than just desirable (on the principle that it is normally considered praiseworthy for women to follow the behaviour of the "best of women" - the wives and close female relatives of Muhammad).


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    #166
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    what else should i know, cheating is very common, advertising of woman is very common... Isn't it butterfly culture... In every movie, there is same addiction to pussy... It is ruining minds and heart of your youth... Still you're in state of denial.. Mark Hamil, it's time for men like you to take stand other wise your civilization will suicide with its own dagger...

    So you admit you don't know much about western culture but still deem yourself educated enough to decry it as falling apart and corrupt purely based on the fact that women here aren't required to adhere to hijab? You remember me pointing out how hijab is shallow? This is how its shallow. You denounce entire cultures based only on how the women dress.
    dead one wrote: »
    That's the ultimate status which your society has given to women in the name of freedom... and life of every women is orbiting around the same circle--- There is cheating everywhere... Father are treated as second class citizen... Children don't respect their father... Children are being brainwashed by watching stupid movies, the movies makers want money and in this struggle they are destroying minds of your generation by displaying and glorifying pussy/dick relation in the innocent minds... A society being sacrificed at altar of desires.. S

    Do you actually have any evidence for these wild claims?
    dead one wrote: »
    Both cases are wrong.. The commercial system of media is purely based on cheating... It's cheating if you don't tell demerits of your products.. I am against advertising of men and women....

    Why, then, don't you advocate the same rules for men as women? Why is there one version of hijab for women and one for men?
    dead one wrote: »
    Practicing muslim women don't display them like days of ignorance... As they are instructed through Quran.... There is disease of hypocrisy..

    Thats not the point. They still wear make-up, despite it being "cheating". Even if its only their husbands that see them without the scarf, they are still "cheating" their husbands.
    dead one wrote: »
    The intentions behind hijab are pure... that's why hijab isn't cheating.. Women do makeup to get attraction or to look beautiful... There aren't such intention behind hijab.. there is no competitive advantage in hijab...

    Of course there is. It levels the playing field between those women who are naturally attractive and those who aren't. Its reverse make up.


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    #167
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    Golly, this thread has been interesting reading.
    1. That women who are targets of sexual harassment are "asking for it".
    2. That despite wearing three-quarter length sleeves, a decent neckline, no jewellery, little make-up and a pair of jeans, I am somehow advertising my wares to the unsuspecting men around me.
    3. That despite achieving high educational standards, doing a worthy job that I love and am apparently quite good at, taking an interest in world affairs, reflecting and developing my thoughts and personal philosophies, that despite all of this, my perceived value as a person can still hinge on whether I cover my head or not. Brilliant.


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    #168
    oceanclub
    Registered Users Posts: 3,411 ✭✭✭oceanclub


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Golly, this thread has been interesting reading.
    1. That women who are targets of sexual harassment are "asking for it".
    2. That despite wearing three-quarter length sleeves, a decent neckline, no jewellery, little make-up and a pair of jeans, I am somehow advertising my wares to the unsuspecting men around me.
    3. That despite achieving high educational standards, doing a worthy job that I love and am apparently quite good at, taking an interest in world affairs, reflecting and developing my thoughts and personal philosophies, that despite all of this, my perceived value as a person can still hinge on whether I cover my head or not. Brilliant.

    Don't forget 4, that women like you want simple-hearted guys and wish to have relations with them:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77309368&postcount=115

    P.


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    #169
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    hivizman wrote: »
    I don't think that we are going to agree on this point. The verse in Surat an-Nur is addressed to the "believing women" (waqul-lil'mu'minaati). The verses in Surat al-Ahzaab are addressed to "the wives of the Prophet" (yaanisaa-al nabiyi) (verse 32) or to "the people of the household" (ahl al-bayt) (verse 33).
    dear hivizman
    you didn't get the very simple point -- The orders which are given in Surat an-Nur -- The best way to full fill those orders is home-- I mean, it is very easy for a believing women to follow verse of Surat an-Nur in homes -- but very difficult outside home.. That's the beauty of quran... That's my whole point... Now please tell, what is difference between those verses... The verse of surah ahzab is giving a direct order to stay in homes and there is indirect order in Surat an Nur --
    hivizman wrote: »
    I don't deny that, in practice, in many Muslim societies, women have tended to stay in their homes and avoided going out except when necessary. What I am questioning is whether the wording of Surat al-Ahzaab makes such conduct obligatory rather than just desirable (on the principle that it is normally considered praiseworthy for women to follow the behaviour of the "best of women" - the wives and close female relatives of Muhammad).
    I think i have given answer above...


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    #170
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    oceanclub wrote: »
    Don't forget 4, that women like you want simple-hearted guys and wish to have relations with them:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=77309368&postcount=115

    P.
    Hey ocean club -- Why are you trying to join elephant tail with frog.. -- don't repeat old things -- don't keep things in heart it is dangerous for your heart which is deluded by worldy pleasure... A message for your heart -- tell your heart, life isn't to enjoy pleasures it is to resist pleasures... wasted 40 years --

    f.


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    #171
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    dead one wrote: »
    life isn't to enjoy pleasures it is to resist pleasures...
    That must be a very sad life to lead.


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    #172
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    doctoremma wrote: »
    That must be a very sad life to lead.

    Does enjoying all the pleasures you can avail of lead to a happy life?


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    #173
    doctoremma
    Registered Users Posts: 1,870 ✭✭✭doctoremma


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Does enjoying all the pleasures you can avail of lead to a happy life?
    Everything I do is for pleasure. I want to feel good physically and mentally - I do stuff that makes me feel good physically and mentally.

    Edit: Re Mark Hamill below, I should qualify that I don't pursue personal pleasure at the expense of others. That would give me significant overall displeasure.


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    #174
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    irishconvert wrote: »
    Does enjoying all the pleasures you can avail of lead to a happy life?

    When you couple that with minimising the displeasure you cause others, then yes. Think about it - everyone attempts to be as happy and fulfilled as they can, while at the same time trying to negatively effect others as little as possible. Everyone wins. Everyone is as happy as possible.


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    #175
    irishconvert
    Registered Users Posts: 1,866 ✭✭✭irishconvert


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    When you couple that with minimising the displeasure you cause others, then yes. Think about it - everyone attempts to be as happy and fulfilled as they can, while at the same time trying to negatively effect others as little as possible. Everyone wins. Everyone is as happy as possible.

    But some people can be happier by denying themselves certain pleasures in life. Alcohol used to be a pleasure for me, but I am certainly happier now that I deny myself that pleasure.


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    #176
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    irishconvert wrote: »
    But some people can be happier by denying themselves certain pleasures in life. Alcohol used to be a pleasure for me, but I am certainly happier now that I deny myself that pleasure.

    Sure, because of how it effected others around them, or how it effected them in the long term (or just the morning after). You deny yourself a small or short term pleasure in order to increase a big or long term pleasure. You are still trying to maximise your pleasure, just more intelligently by looking long term or bigger picture.


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    #177
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    doctoremma wrote: »
    That must be a very sad life to lead.
    what creates sadness, pleasures... wisdom begets wisdom


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    #178
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    doctoremma wrote: »
    Everything I do is for pleasure.
    You believe this world is the only pleasure you have, but that's not reality
    doctoremma wrote: »
    I want to feel good physically and mentally - I do stuff that makes me feel good physically and mentally.
    Your quote is creating an effect of selfishness... I smell weakness and selfishness...See-- You Eat for pleasure and health, if you make someone else eat, the needy one, by resisting pleasures -- that's real life... It doesn't mean, don't eat -- It means, the purpose of resisting pleasures is to resist pleasures in time of need.. So that you can't become selfish... Majority atheist are selfish when it comes to sacrifice.. become selfish..They are selfish only to their own lives.. That's the difference becoming slave to pleasures and resisting pleasures...
    doctoremma wrote: »
    Edit: Re Mark Hamill below, I should qualify that I don't pursue personal pleasure at the expense of others. That would give me significant overall displeasure.
    If your resisting of pleasures brings benefit to others... That would be great to do in this life full of misery and selfishness....
    There are many God's people wandering in the jungles... I would like to become his man who loves God's people


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    #179
    dead one
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,320 ✭✭✭dead one


    Mark Hamill wrote: »
    Sure, because of how it effected others around them, or how it effected them in the long term (or just the morning after). You deny yourself a small or short term pleasure in order to increase a big or long term pleasure. You are still trying to maximise your pleasure, just more intelligently by looking long term or bigger picture.
    That's old theory -- We muslims don't do deeds for pleasures, we do for the will of God... You know something about will of God....


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    #180
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    That's old theory -- We muslims don't do deeds for pleasures, we do for the will of God... You know something about will of God....

    But is that not pleasureful, at least in the long term? When I say pleasure, I don't necessarily mean something that is instantaneously gratifying (although it can be). I mean something that makes you happy and increases the quality and harmony of your life (because those things generally lead to you being more happy). You do things for the will of god, because you believe that its better for the world to act in his will (ie that it will increase everyone's happiness and quality of life) and because it will ensure your entrance into heaven, where you get eternal happiness.


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    #181
    Mark Hamill
    Registered Users Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭Mark Hamill


    dead one wrote: »
    Your quote is creating an effect of selfishness... I smell weakness and selfishness...See-- You Eat for pleasure and health, if you make someone else eat, the needy one, by resisting pleasures -- that's real life... It doesn't mean, don't eat -- It means, the purpose of resisting pleasures is to resist pleasures in time of need.. So that you can't become selfish...

    So you deny yourself pleasure when you don't need to, so that you can do it when you do need to? Except that you do it all your life, so that you can stop doing it when you die and get into heaven, where you will never need to do it? That doesn't make a lot of sense.
    dead one wrote: »
    Majority atheist are selfish when it comes to sacrifice.. become selfish..They are selfish only to their own lives.. That's the difference becoming slave to pleasures and resisting pleasures...

    Oh, really? That's nice. By the way, can you prove any of this, or is it more empty ranting?


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