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Cervical cancer vaccine program scrapped

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    #122
    rainbow kirby
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 26,928 Mod ✭✭✭✭rainbow kirby


    taconnol wrote: »
    Kissing?! Is mouth herpes the same as HPV??

    Oral herpes is caused by the Herpes Simplex virus, not the Human Papilloma virus.


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    #123
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    If you prioritise the lives of Irish citizens you will want the vaccine to be widely available for the lives it saves.

    If you prioritise the economy you will want the vaccine to be widely available for the money it saves the exchequer.

    If you think total abstinence is a sensible solution, you may want to consider why the Shaker religion (the only religion to preach total abstinence) only has four members left (that and you may want to ask someone to tell you where babies come from).

    If you think partial abstinence is even a slight solution, you've just got your facts about the disease wrong.


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    #124
    Nuravictus
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭Nuravictus


    Zaph wrote: »
    Links please?
    <snip>

    Taken From: <snip>


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    #125
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Hmmm, according to this, it seems that the esteemed Dr. Fudenberg isn't what could be honestly described as a "credible source". Here's just one extract:
    In November 1995, the South Carolina medical board found Fudenberg "guilty of engaging in dishonorable, unethical, or unprofessional conduct," fined him $10,000, ordered him to surrender his license to prescribe controlled substances (narcotic drugs), and placed his license on indefinite suspension.

    And here's another:
    Fudenberg's lack of a license does not appear to have stopped him from offering medical services to the public. His Neuro Immuno Therapeutics Research Foundation Web site offers the following services: review of past medical records ($750 per inch); determining what tests are needed, ordering the tests, and interpreting the tests ($750); and determining which therapy will work (usually 2 hours @ $750/hour).

    Sounds like a quack to me. You want to go back and edit your post or shall I?


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    #126
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Fudenberg makes his money ripping off the parents of autistic children and uses the MMR scare to promote his scam. Its pretty irrelevant to the HPV vaccine, as that's not the target market for the "autism cure" he sells from his kitchen.

    Even if his claims where true (and some of the people raising concerns aren't vested interests like Fudenberg and Wakefield), since there is no thimerosal (the organomercury compound in MMR that has been accused of contributing to autism) in the HPV vaccine and since the age at which the HPV vaccine is given is considerably older than that at which exposure to thimerosal is alleged to contribute to autism, this is doubly irrelevant.

    The claim (a much rarer claim, actually is anyone claiming this apart from Fudenberg?) about Alzheimer's isn't age-related. But again, even if thimerosal caused Alzheimer's 100% of the time, so what? There's no thimerosal in the HPV vaccine.

    You might as well say people shouldn't eat oranges because chocolate makes dogs sick. Different substance, different consumer, different effects.


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    #127
    Crumble Froo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,196 ✭✭✭Crumble Froo


    just saw this thread. **** that is ****ed up. ****!

    not that i'd've even personally benefitted, but doenst make me any less angry about it. ... but, i think the worst bit is i feel quite apathetic too. just prepared to be let down about crap like this already. bleh. ****ing government.


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    #128
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    taconnol wrote: »
    OK so I did some checking on gynaecologist salaries:

    IE:€180k/year plus bonus
    UK: c. €120k/year plus bonus
    France: €90k/year plus bonus
    Mexico: €108k/year plus bonus

    I have yet to find any other country's public health service that pays its consultants as much as Ireland does. I wonder why exactly people go into these jobs if they won't get out of bed for less than €150k/year, if they hate them so much?

    I mean, where is all the money going into the health service go?? Administrators? Does the government not provide a break-down?

    Now compare those salaries on a pro-rata basis to the governments top legal and financial people. What would you pay a plumber to work 60 hours a week, plus be on call for a huge chunk of their careers, plus having to sometimes work 18-20 hour shifts. It would be less than what a consultant gets, but not enormously so. Same with lawyers or accountants.

    Australia and the US pay many of their doctors more than in Ireland. Plus you're ignoring the cost of living in ireland when you're comparing salaries. You talk about the UK.....when I was a junior doc there I was living in a top floor really plush apartment in the expensive bit of town, while earning no more than my electrician mate back in dublin. On that salary i would have struggled to even rent in Dublin, for example. So you have to be careful with comparisons.

    I never said consultants hate their jobs. I made the following points..no more, no less......

    1) They have a really really stressful job, and they work long hours. They should be paid for this. 50 euro an hour isn't ridiculous for what they do.

    2) For that money you're getting some of the best minds in the country, and you've bastardised them of their 20s and 30s working slave hours for the public health service. They've literally spent up to 13 years of their life working shifts that are up to 72 hours long to get where they are.

    3) If you take the whole 9 million per annum straight out of the consultants' salaries, they'll quite rightly tell you to stop taking the piss, and go and work in the Beacon hospital for more money, less hours and less stress. The fact that these people work in the private sector makes them the good guys. You can earn literally a fortune in the private sector. I was a PATIENT at a private clinic in Dublin when I was back home recently, and they offered me a job with a massive payrise to come and work for them! While I was ill!!! These greedy bastard consultants could easy cream in half a million a year in the private sector. No bother at all. Many would make more than that. Why don't they?

    4) If you take the piss like that, they will quite rightly leave the public sector. I'm absoloutely commited to public work and have never taken a cent of private money from a patient. But if someone told me after a 24 hour shift with no break, making life and death decisions all night that I'm overpaid and greedy and they were taking a huge chunk of my salary away, then I'd leave there and then. If the good people leave the public sector, then you'll get what you want. That's cool with me. I have private healthcare. If I have daughters they'll be able to access the vaccine very easily. But I'm arguing the point to try and make the point that the frontline health workers are not the evil people here.

    But, like I said, BUPA pay my medical bills, and you get what you pay for. So knock yourself out with importing Mexican consultants all over the place if you want.

    But, regardless of what you believe people's motives are, if you loose the top people in the health service, you certainly won't be naking things any better.


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    #129
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Hi Nuravictus.
    I know there's a lot of information out there about vaccines, and people keep telling you different things. And there always seems to be a scandal.

    But you might want to read this thread....

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055077967&highlight=vaccine&page=2

    It's a discussion we had on the issue a few months back int he biology+medicine forum. I've tried to deal with safety concerns in post number 30 on that thread.

    That might give you some of the info you're looking for regarding vaccine safety. And if it doesn't just bump the thread, and we'd be happy to continue the conversation :D


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    #130
    cathy01
    Registered Users Posts: 2,269 ✭✭✭cathy01


    I Enquired about getting it for my daughters and was told it was €700 each.I diont think its covered under VHI /Bupa.I feel almost like I HAVE to get it for them now.What type of mother would I be , nowwing their is a preventitive out there , credit union loan...here I come.cathy


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    #131
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    cathy01 wrote: »
    I Enquired about getting it for my daughters and was told it was €700 each.I diont think its covered under VHI /Bupa.I feel almost like I HAVE to get it for them now.What type of mother would I be , nowwing their is a preventitive out there , credit union loan...here I come.cathy


    Are the private healthcare guys not covering it in Ireland????? Scabs. They cover it here in Oz. How odd.


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    #132
    Nuravictus
    Registered Users Posts: 394 ✭✭Nuravictus


    Zaph wrote: »



    Sounds like a quack to me. You want to go back and edit your post or shall I?

    here is a different subject but the relation to Mecury/Alzheimer’s is here also

    Drs Markesbery’s and Ehmann’s experiments have shown there are higher concentrations of mercury in the autopsied brains of patients who died of Alzheimer’s than are present in the autopsied brains of patients who did not have Alzheimer’s.

    You can research both of them as well as I cant find anything on them :P


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    #133
    luckat
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,366 ✭✭✭luckat


    In relation to cervical cancer being spread by sex - it's kind of a non-issue. Anyone who wants to have children is likely to have sex, unless the people proposing abstention are also proposing that all children should be born through IVF.

    And even if a woman only has sex with one man all her life, she can't be certain that he won't have sex with others.

    In relation to the scare stories about vaccines - the vaccine wasn't proposed to be compulsory. Those who are worried about vaccination's possible side effects are perfectly welcome to refuse it for their daughters.

    (My own, non-scientific, view on MMR and autism is this: I have a gut feeling that people with a predisposition to autism may also have an intolerance to some component of the vaccine or the substance used as a carrier for it. If/when that 'autism gene' is found, it will be possible to skip the vaccination for those children. I suspect that autism may be something the same as PPK, one of the problems for which the heel-prick test is given to newborns. With PPK (phenylketonuria), children who eat normal food gradually become brain damaged, but if they eat a special, restricted diet, they do not suffer that damage.)

    I have close friends who are the heartbroken family of a severely damaged darling adult autistic son. But if I had a child, I'd still have it vaccinated. However, if there were autism in my family, I'd be very cautious about the vaccine, and also about any man becoming a father when he was over 30.


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    #134
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    luckat wrote: »
    In relation to cervical cancer being spread by sex - it's kind of a non-issue. Anyone who wants to have children is likely to have sex, unless the people proposing abstention are also proposing that all children should be born through IVF.

    And even if a woman only has sex with one man all her life, she can't be certain that he won't have sex with others.

    In relation to the scare stories about vaccines - the vaccine wasn't proposed to be compulsory. Those who are worried about vaccination's possible side effects are perfectly welcome to refuse it for their daughters.

    (My own, non-scientific, view on MMR and autism is this: I have a gut feeling that people with a predisposition to autism may also have an intolerance to some component of the vaccine or the substance used as a carrier for it. If/when that 'autism gene' is found, it will be possible to skip the vaccination for those children. I suspect that autism may be something the same as PPK, one of the problems for which the heel-prick test is given to newborns. With PPK (phenylketonuria), children who eat normal food gradually become brain damaged, but if they eat a special, restricted diet, they do not suffer that damage.)

    I have close friends who are the heartbroken family of a severely damaged darling adult autistic son. But if I had a child, I'd still have it vaccinated. However, if there were autism in my family, I'd be very cautious about the vaccine, and also about any man becoming a father when he was over 30.

    I totally respect your right to hold the opinions above. But can I just pop in here and put the other side of it out there, just because a huge portion of people who read this will be parents some time in the future.....

    In populations of kids who have never been vaccinated, the rates of autism are no lower than in populations where kids have been vaccinated. There is absoloutely zero evidence of a link between vaccines and autism.

    Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but i think it's important to acknowledge when our opinions are just that, and compare them to what the actual evidence is. And in fairness to luckat, she did just that.


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    #135
    Talliesin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,314 ✭✭✭Talliesin


    Nuravictus wrote: »
    here is a different subject but the relation to Mecury/Alzheimer’s is here also

    So ****ing what?

    There's a known link between mercury and illnesses. This may or may not affect the organomercury compound that are used in some other vaccines.

    Bullets, plutonium, high-voltage electricity, fast-moving cars and health-budget cutbacks can all also cause injury. They aren't in the HPV vaccine either.

    Why are you bothering to say that mercury is dangerous, rather than any other completely irrelevant dangerous thing, like say drunk-drivers?

    /Edit:

    Oh FFS! The research you are citing isn't even about thimerosal. We already know that some mercurial compounds are dangerous. This is triply irrelevant.

    Actually, its quadruply irrelevant. Thimerosal isn't used in MMR. Pentuply, it's being withdrawn from influenza vaccine.

    So yes, if you get bitten by a snake and have to take anti-venom (which by its nature cannot be produced in short-life single-use doses) then maybe the mercury compound preservative in it could be dangerous. And maybe not. Now, what the hell does this have to do with our children getting cervical cancer?

    Are you just taking the piss or do you really believe this "Chewbacca defense" holds water?


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    #136
    ronbyrne2005
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,494 ✭✭✭ronbyrne2005


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Now compare those salaries on a pro-rata basis to the governments top legal and financial people. What would you pay a plumber to work 60 hours a week, plus be on call for a huge chunk of their careers, plus having to sometimes work 18-20 hour shifts. It would be less than what a consultant gets, but not enormously so. Same with lawyers or accountants.

    Australia and the US pay many of their doctors more than in Ireland. Plus you're ignoring the cost of living in ireland when you're comparing salaries. You talk about the UK.....when I was a junior doc there I was living in a top floor really plush apartment in the expensive bit of town, while earning no more than my electrician mate back in dublin. On that salary i would have struggled to even rent in Dublin, for example. So you have to be careful with comparisons.

    I never said consultants hate their jobs. I made the following points..no more, no less......

    1) They have a really really stressful job, and they work long hours. They should be paid for this. 50 euro an hour isn't ridiculous for what they do.

    2) For that money you're getting some of the best minds in the country, and you've bastardised them of their 20s and 30s working slave hours for the public health service. They've literally spent up to 13 years of their life working shifts that are up to 72 hours long to get where they are.

    3) If you take the whole 9 million per annum straight out of the consultants' salaries, they'll quite rightly tell you to stop taking the piss, and go and work in the Beacon hospital for more money, less hours and less stress. The fact that these people work in the private sector makes them the good guys. You can earn literally a fortune in the private sector. I was a PATIENT at a private clinic in Dublin when I was back home recently, and they offered me a job with a massive payrise to come and work for them! While I was ill!!! These greedy bastard consultants could easy cream in half a million a year in the private sector. No bother at all. Many would make more than that. Why don't they?

    4) If you take the piss like that, they will quite rightly leave the public sector. I'm absoloutely commited to public work and have never taken a cent of private money from a patient. But if someone told me after a 2 hour shift with no break, making life and death decisions all night that I'm overpaid and greedy and they were taking a huge chunk of my salary away, then I'd leave there and then. If the good people leave the public sector, then you'll get what you want. That's cool with me. I have private healthcare. If I have daughters they'll be able to access the vaccine very easily. But I'm arguing the point to try and make the point that the frontline health workers are not the evil people here.

    But, like I said, BUPA pay my medical bills, and you get what you pay for. So knock yourself out with importing Mexican consultants all over the place if you want.

    But, regardless of what you believe people's motives are, if you loose the top people in the health service, you certainly won't be naking things any better.

    From friends working in UK on such salaries the say tax is much higher there than here offsetting the cost of living differences to a large degree.Also London is more expensive than Ireland and consultants there manage despite less salary than those here on "mickey mouse money".


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    #137
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    ronbyrne2005 wrote: »
    From friends working in UK on such salaries the say tax is much higher there than here offsetting the cost of living differences to a large degree.Also London is more expensive than Ireland and consultants there manage despite less salary than those here on "mickey mouse money".


    It's not micky mouse money. Maybe to you it is, but not to most people.

    My income tax was more or less the same in Ireland and the UK. If there was a difference between it, it most definitely never offset the cost of living. I had a far better standard of living in the UK, and have a way better standard of living here in Oz with similar money.

    Consultants in London have access to phenomenal private practise opportunities. Most consultants who own a home anywhere near central london do private work. They get paid 70-90k sterling per annum (mostly somewhere in the midle). Make of that what you will. It's a nice salary. But it's not a central London salary.

    But this isn't really the argument. You're kind of arguing in circles if you really believe that the consultants who work in the public sector are greedy (that makes zero sense to me, but let's run with it)......if that holds, then they will leave the public sector if their salaries are used as the funding for the vaccine (presumably they'd be responsible for the added costs above the 9 million for public health surveillance and monitoring aswell).

    So, either way it won't work as a solution. You have to choose what you really want to believe...

    1) That consultants are actually greedy, so will leave the healthcare system if you take the piss with their wages.

    2) Consultants in the public are the good guys and will accept having 14 million taken from their colective salary every year.

    It's up to you. Doesn't bother me.


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    #138
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    This thread seems to be constantly veering off-course. I may be inclined to lock it if it doesn't go back on-topic soon.


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    #139
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    There's no need to overmoderate the thread.

    People are suggesting ways to fund the shortfall.

    You have to understand that people are entitled to question large salaries in times of financial difficulties, when important programmes like the cervical ca vaccine are being cancelled.

    Taking the money from foreign aid is an option a lot of people would go for, as is the option of cutting back ont he largest earners within the service.

    As important as these potential solutions are to the problem, the ability to realise why they might not be a viable option is equally important.

    The "on-topicness" of this topic is very broad when you think about it.


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    #140
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    I agree, suggesting ways to fund the programme is very much on-topic, and I've no problem with that. Long discussions about the relative pay for doctors in different countries and the tax rates applicable to their salaries is not.


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    #141
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    I disagree, to an extent. I agree that it's best served on another forum.

    But the argument goes:

    you should take the money from overpaid consultants to fund the vaccine programme.....


    They're not overpaid......

    They are, they earn 180k per year, that's much more than in other contries, so we should defo take some of the wages away to fund the programme.....

    That's not a huge amount.....

    It is, coz other countries pay them less.


    It's all about debating the merits of a possible source of funding. It does adults no favour to tell them they can only have a "yea, Harney should definitely not have scrapped that programme" type of conversation.

    If ronbyne and tacconal want to debate the finer points of consultant salaries, they are welcome to chat to docs over ont he biology+medicine forum. But, when people are suggesting thay their personal earning should be used to fund a vaccination programme, then arguing about their value for money is relevant to the topic.


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    #142
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    Yeah, I see your point. Fair enough, carry on and don't mind me. :)


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    #143
    tallaght01
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭tallaght01


    Nah, I think it's been done to death, dude :P

    The consultants can defend their own asses over on bio-med from here on in as far as I'm concerned lol


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    #144
    Zaph
    Registered Users, Subscribers Posts: 47,278 ✭✭✭✭Zaph


    tallaght01 wrote: »
    Nah, I think it's been done to death, dude :P

    The consultants can defend their own asses over on bio-med from here on in as far as I'm concerned lol

    tallaght01 banned for ignoring mod instruction to carry on. :D


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    #145
    sofia11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 90 ✭✭sofia11


    Sorry if this has already been covered but todayfm have an email going to Mary Harney (re withdrawal of vaccine to prevent cervical cancer) Worth a try as 20,000 emails have already been sent.


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    #146
    RubyXI
    Registered Users Posts: 1,596 ✭✭✭RubyXI


    Linky

    http://www.todayfm.com/Article.asp?id=971162


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    #147
    panda100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,551 ✭✭✭panda100


    sofia11 wrote: »
    Sorry if this has already been covered but todayfm have an email going to Mary Harney (re withdrawal of vaccine to prevent cervical cancer) Worth a try as 20,000 emails have already been sent.

    Fine Gael are using their private members time tommorow and Wedensday to debate the goverments decision on this.

    Some of us are planning on organising a protest following the outcome of this debate, which more than likely will be in favour of scrapping the vaccination. Il keep those on here posted about when and where it will be.

    As we've seen in the last few weeks the only way to fight these dangerous cutbacks is with people power!


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    #148
    Macha
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 6,376 Mod ✭✭✭✭Macha


    :mad::mad::mad:

    Doesn't it just drive you mad?? Watching TV and an ad came up for the HPV vaccine...for girls in the UK:

    http://www.helpprotectyourself.info/


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    #149
    The Sweeper
    Registered Users Posts: 10,658 ✭✭✭✭The Sweeper


    Hmm.

    Did I hear correctly that it's an either/or situation between the medical card for the over-70s versus the cervical cancer vaccine?

    Because while I agree that not providing the vaccination programme is disgraceful, I wouldn't want to see the medical card scrapped again...


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    #150
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    That is what they are trying to say but there are other places that cuts can be made.


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    #151
    Ginny
    Hosted Moderators Posts: 13,425 ✭✭✭✭Ginny


    Exactly they're throwing up emotive smokescreens which smell of BS.


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