Luas - Red Line General Discussion

BrianD · 29-10-2007 12:57pm

murphaph wrote: »

What's your solution to this perceived problem?

My solution to the perceived problem and you hit the nail on the head, it's all about passenger perception, is that full service stations will have to be built if the stations are to be underground. Even on NY subway stations that can be quite big, there is probably only one guy in a bulletproof kiosk but there is a perception for both wrong doer and passenger that there is a presence. Also the stations should be turnstiled so it's not free access.

MiniD · 29-10-2007 2:13pm

It's no secret that there are serious security problems on the Luas. In-fact, Veolia has recently employed security for some stops. You can put all the CCTV you want at stops, but when you have groups of people off their face on drink and drugs, they just don't care.

I have posted here many times of stories involving serious anti-social behaviour. I would say any regular Luas passenger will have a story to tell. From early morning to late at night, the stops, particularly at Jervis, and Abbey Street constantly have drunks and junkies hanging around.

I have been harassed at stops, I have had junkies and drunks fall on me on the tram, I have been on trams where security have had to remove junkies who had passed out (the latest being last Thursday at Jervis), I have been on trams where the Gardai have been called because passengers have been harassed by a scumbag. I have seen junkies prepare their drugs on the tram. On numerous occasions, I've seen up to 20 teenagers jump on the tram while it traveled between Blackhorse and Fatima, and run screaming through the carriage. I was on a tram recently where the teenagers were taking turns to ride outside the tram, sitting on the rear windscreen.

I welcome how every drivers constantly presses the audio message to remind passengers of pickpockets. While it seems Veolia is taking the matter seriously, I believe the bigger problem involves the Gardai and the courts. I don't remember anybody ever being charged because of anti-social behaviour on public transport, which is a problem, as a lot of people view it as a dangerous way to travel.

Last week we had a major bus route pull out of an area in South Dublin because of driver attacks. There are currently two other areas of Dublin which do not a have a service after dark for similar reasons. Two years ago we had a man thrown from the upstairs of a moving double deck bus. What needs to happen before somebody takes control and makes public transport a safe place.

BrianD has made an excellent point of how we should be planning now for Metro. We should be looking at the current problems on Luas and making sure they are wiped out before Metro arrives.

BrianD · 29-10-2007 2:22pm

And it's not easy to stamp out. Even on the DART where there is more staff in evidence (cue various comments), there are still groups of louts. I believe that there are groups of junkies who travel up and down the line on inclement days turning the DARt into an impromptu hostel.

The fact of the matter, it's difficult to secure manned stations so why make the situation more difficult with these basic stations?

murphaph · 29-10-2007 3:12pm

Oh just play Beethoven's 9th at them over and over and over again and the little scallywags will be on their way!

Seriously, manning all stations should be a last resort. Build the station, then if anti-social behaviour manifests itself it will still be possible to man stations later, though mobile patrols might be much more cost effective and achieve the same result. Drivers can easily alert control of a group of yobs hanging around and not boarding trams. Would take a mobile security patrol no more than 10 mins to get there.

John R · 29-10-2007 3:47pm

murphaph wrote: »

Oh just play Beethoven's 9th at them over and over and over again and the little scallywags will be on their way!

Seriously, manning all stations should be a last resort. Build the station, then if anti-social behaviour manifests itself it will still be possible to man stations later, though mobile patrols might be much more cost effective and achieve the same result. Drivers can easily alert control of a group of yobs hanging around and not boarding trams. Would take a mobile security patrol no more than 10 mins to get there.

That is the most stupid rubbish I have read from you in some time. Having Unmanned underground stations is a recipe for disaster and the idea that nothing should be done until the inevitable problem happens is disgraceful.

Alot of damage can be done to property and person in 10 minutes,

It is far better to start with secure stations that are scumbag-unfriendly, once they take over it is far harder to remove them and by then public confidence in the system will already be gone.

BrianD is 100% correct, there is no question that an unmanned large underground structure will be a no-go area after dark in Dublin for all but the worst scum in our society. There is a reason that pedestrian subways have been removed from the likes of Ballymun; they were big problem areas for all kinds of crime and anti-social behaviour.

BrianD · 29-10-2007 4:12pm

Furthermore, I think underground stations need to be manned in the event of a non-scumbag emergency ... fire etc.

The Veolia patrols are largely ineffective for one reason only - they have no real power to police the lines. As someone else pointed out, we need to have a transport police with powers of arrest etc. This could be a part of the central or Dublin transport authority.

SteM · 30-10-2007 2:24pm

Getting on the 8:30am Luas in The Square this morning I noticed there was a queue of about 20-25 people waiting to use the ticket machines and some of them missed at least 2 trams.

I have an annual ticket so I don't normally queue but can anyone tell me if you're able to purchase normal single/return tickets prior to your journey ie the night or day before or do you have to get your ticket on the day of travel?

Carroller16 · 30-10-2007 5:26pm

No. If your buying a single ticket it is valid up to 90 minutes from time of purchase. Return tickets are valid from time of purchase until the Last Tram that day.

bk · 30-10-2007 6:47pm

Just because a station is manned doesn't mean there won't be anti social behaviour. I was recently in Paris for a weekend and I saw two pick pockets happen and that was in a manned station.

It isn't a particular problem with LUAS or Metro, rather it is a problem with all public transport in Ireland including bus, DART and train. What we badly need is a section of the Gardai dedicated to public transport who work in close cooperation with ticket inspectors, drivers and security and a court system that takes serious anti social behaviour on public transport.

I assume that the unmanned METRO stations will actually have a lot of security, mobile patrols and hopefully the Gardai will be encouraged to frequently visit these stations and ride the Metro.

daniel3982 · 30-10-2007 10:55pm

They dont have manned underground stations in Newcastle and they work fine, they do have CCTV everywhere and microphones and speakers so if you act up the controller tells you to stop it or you'll get nicked. They have ticket inspector/security teams who sweep the system in high-vis jackets too taking any scroats they catch off the metro and fining them. It works great, although I believe they are going to install ticket barriers at some of the main stations soon.

They are really good with their fines though, and anyone who doesnt pay gets their name on a board and taken to court for a much bigger fine.

Carroller16 · 31-10-2007 11:44pm

Going on from what was said earlier about the 90 Bus being quicker from Heuston - Busaras(Area) than the Luas ...

I done a little expiremnt yesterday and today...

I boarded the Luas at Heuston on 30 October at 08.47 and arrived at Busáras at 09.01

a total of 14 minutes

Boarded the 90 bus this morning 31 October at 08.51 an arrived at the IFSC (Busaras Area) at 09.05

a total of 14 minutes

So technically it was a draw. But the 90 bus was cheaper at €1.20 a journey wasn't crammed and left me closer to Sean O'Casey Memorial Bridge.

So i think that from now on the 90 is the way in the mornings....

bk · 01-11-2007 1:25am

Carroller16 wrote:

So i think that from now on the 90 is the way in the mornings....

Very good comparison.

I always take the Luas as it always takes the same amount of time, whereas the bus could get caught in traffic and you would be delayed. Now that mightn't be such a big deal if your just heading to work, but it can be a major deal if your trying to catch a train.

As you take the bus over the next few weeks, keep track of the time and lets us know how it performs over a few weeks. It would be very interesting to hear.

Another thing to remember is that one of the most important reasons why the bus is now quiet and fast is because so many people have changed over to LUAS from it.

Before the luas I remember massive throngs of people trying to get on the bus and the bus taking 15 minutes just to load at one bus stop.

Carroller16 · 01-11-2007 1:27am

The 92 is very popular from Heuston but altho the seats were full on the bus ya could stand with plenty of room... Maybe it's just this week with the Mid Term on ... but the Bus Lane goes right down to Capel St.

spacetweek · 05-11-2007 6:57pm

Carroller16 wrote: »

Going on from what was said earlier about the 90 Bus being quicker from Heuston - Busaras(Area) than the Luas ...

I done a little expiremnt yesterday and today...

This might be true for your journey, but I still don't think it proves anything.

For a user who is already on the Luas coming in from Tallaght, it's more convenient to just stay on rather than having to disembark and wait for the bus. Also, we don't have integrated ticketing, so you'd have to pay a second fare.

For a user who's not arriving on the Luas, you just choose whichever is faster or arrives first - if that's the bus, then so what, it doesn't really prove anything. You're only showing that the bus is faster over that short city centre section. This doesn't mean, for example, that bus is generally better than Luas, for the city as a whole.

KC61 · 06-11-2007 2:13pm

spacetweek wrote: »

This might be true for your journey, but I still don't think it proves anything.

For a user who is already on the Luas coming in from Tallaght, it's more convenient to just stay on rather than having to disembark and wait for the bus. Also, we don't have integrated ticketing, so you'd have to pay a second fare.

For a user who's not arriving on the Luas, you just choose whichever is faster or arrives first - if that's the bus, then so what, it doesn't really prove anything. You're only showing that the bus is faster over that short city centre section. This doesn't mean, for example, that bus is generally better than Luas, for the city as a whole.

I was making the point that many people stand at Heuston Station waiting for an already packed tram to city centre while the 90/91/92 buses leave, often with plenty of space available.

The advent of the continuous bus lane along the quays means that for that journey, the bus is now faster consistently than LUAS, but many people have not realised it. The reasons are that LUAS has 4 stops along the route, and that it has several junctions where they often come to a halt. The volume of buses along the quays means that the loads are cleared relatively easily so on average the buses have fewer stops.

I am not making a general comment regards the LUAS - just that specific journey.

trellheim · 06-11-2007 3:16pm

Yes but do those people have an integrated train+luas ticket ?

Then they would have to pay for the bus separately.

Or does the trainfare include the 90?

monument · 06-11-2007 4:06pm

trellheim wrote: »

Yes but do those people have an integrated train+luas ticket ?

Then they would have to pay for the bus separately.

Or does the trainfare include the 90?

As far as I know the intercity add-on includes the 90... but at times there can be vast amounts of people who get of trains with no 'city centre' add-on (see long lines of people at Luas ticket machines on Sunday evenings/nights etc).

Luas - Red Line General Discussion

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