Luas Line F to be announced today

markpb · 16-10-2007 1:55pm

weehamster wrote: »

Now a BRT only would work if it was FULLY segrated. But do we have the room in Dublin to build a fully segrated busway which appears to need more room than a tramway for example

In Bogata (where I presume your photo was taken) they have dual carriage way bus lanes to allow for express buses or buses which only stop at every second stop. It allows them to have a much shorter headway than a normal bus lane or, similarly, a LRT. They can be built to be roughly the same width as a regular LRT.

spacetweek · 17-10-2007 12:33am

markpb wrote:

You're making the mistake of thinking the Luas will be better simply because it's a train. That's flawed for two reasons. One is that we've already proved we can make a balls of a train line and the second is that the bus service could be better if we provided decent bus infrastructure. The problem isn't a lack of buses but a lack of segregated bus corridors with decent priority measures.

Nonsense. Even with huge priority measures, bus still falls short. The PPH figures for Dublin are: QBC 3000, Luas 6500. QED? Also you're ignoring the poor brand image that buses have, and not just in Dublin. Time and again it's been shown that in cities with low takeup of PT, buses don't get people out of cars (regardless of facilities), but rail does.

markpb wrote:

That's not true anymore. There are countless busways around the world that have medium-high capacity because they are properly built. Trans Mileneo in Bogot has a system capacity of 41,000 pphpd and can be further extended. The Lincoln Tunnel bus lane (albeit with no stops) has a capcity of 15,000 passengers per hour. The Orange Line busway in LA has a higher passenger loading per year than it's LRT and one of it's HRTs.

BRT isn't all it's cracked up to be. For more information, please read.

BTW, the journey time figures for Lucan are:
Bus (off peak): 30 mins
Bus (peak): 50-60 mins
Proposed Luas: 42 mins
Proposed express N4 bus service : ?

In future Lucan will have the Kildare DART with (presumably) shuttle buses bringing people to the new stations, the Luas serving the village, Ballyowen, and Liffey Valley and Metro West running north-south along Fonthill Rd. Also an express bus service is planned to run on the upgraded N4 when it's finished in 2009. I think all this should alleviate the situation somewhat.

seamus wrote:

Perhaps there's something psychological to this. When you're on the bus, you spend some time sitting in traffic and constantly stopping at stops. Maybe in people's heads they automatically think, "I could be driving this now in my comfy car with no-one around me, listening to music". On a train or light rail you don't get this - you generally don't/can't drive the same route and it stops less frequently than a bus service so you don't see the other traffic overtaking you.

monument · 17-10-2007 1:29am

markpb wrote: »

If it lies empty the rest of the day....

You seam to be trying to at the very least imply that the Lucan Luas line will, when/if built, lay empty outside peak times... what do you have to back this up?

markpb · 17-10-2007 10:10am

spacetweek wrote: »

Absolute rubbish. Even with huge priority measures, bus still falls short. The PPH figures for Dublin are: QBC 3000, Luas 6500. QED? Also you're ignoring the poor brand image that buses have, and not just in Dublin. Time and again it's been shown that in cities with low takeup of PT, buses don't get people out of cars (regardless of facilities), but rail does.

If you can find a bus lane in Dublin with huge priority measures in Dublin, I'd love to see it

All we have are a bunch of bus lanes with no real priority so there's nothing to compare it to. If you look at proper busways in other cities, then you have something to compare it to. And yes, you're absolutely right about the image problem, I won't argue with that.

monument wrote: »

You seam to be trying to at the very least imply that the Lucan Luas line will, when/if built, lay empty outside peak times... what do you have to back this up?

That's not really my point. I am 100% supportive of LRT if it's built properly. Unfortunately we've already proven, with the red line, that we can make a hash of LRT by building it badly, by segregating it badly and by not affording it enough priority at junctions. People, right now, use the bus instead of the Luas because it's faster at off peak periods. That's a pretty damning indictment of the way it was built. If the Luas to Lucan is going to be built like the Green Line, I'd be all in favour. If it's being built like the Red Line, I'd question the use of spending huge amounts of money on something that will have the same performance as a well built busway.

murphaph · 17-10-2007 10:50am

I think people overplay the 'image problem' of buses! Even in citiies with excellent rail infrastructure, buses play an integral role because they are the most flexible of all.

Dubliners have shown their willingness to use (even when poor) the bus. When a quality service corridor (a la 46A) is offered, the takeup is huge and positive.

The Lucan Luas is a waste of money (at least at this point in time) and the funds should be used to radically improve bus connections to the Kildare/Maynooth Line in readiness for the Interconnector through building/straightening many more north-south link roads and a couple of new bridges over the Liffey to boot.

Victor · 18-10-2007 10:56pm

markpb wrote: »

If you can find a bus lane in Dublin with huge priority measures in Dublin, I'd love to see it

The N11 ain't bad, with an average of about 1 bus per minute in the morning (well over 3,000 per hour).

They are finding the pinch point at the moment is that buses are holding up other buses and the plan is to roll out a series or larger off-lane bus stops.

Cionnfhaolaidh · 19-10-2007 3:59am

Predictions for a Tram/Metro/Maglev down the N11 in 50 years? I'd say it's very possible.

spacetweek · 19-10-2007 6:36pm

Victor wrote: »

The N11 ain't bad, with an average of about 1 bus per minute in the morning (well over 3,000 per hour).

They are finding the pinch point at the moment is that buses are holding up opther buses and the plan is to roll out a series or larger off-lane bus stops.

This is easy, all you do is convert the bus stops to the pull-in variety. Then when a bus pulls in the others can pass by.

Victor · 21-10-2007 4:04am

spacetweek wrote: »

This is easy, all you do is convert the bus stops to the pull-in variety. Then when a bus pulls in the others can pass by.

Not possible in all locations.

It needs to be worked carefully. Some buses (after the first one) will be stopping to set down passengers and will have to stop anyway. The current in-line bus stops should be easier to approach and depart than traditional recessed ones. Problems arise when you have passengers wanting to board different buses and they don't know which buses will stop at which part of that bus stop. There are some locations where multi-bay herringbone bays could be fitted, e.g. UCD and Whites Cross, even Donnybrook Garage (but it wouldn't have the demand).

A real problem with existing stops is that the Kassel Kerbs are there for a length of only 10-15m, meaning only one or at most two buses can use the stop at a time.

Victor · 05-11-2007 11:23pm

http://www.rpa.ie/?id=359

Luas Line F - New Vision for the Liberties Community Planning Weekend

* Friday, November 9th 2007 - 14:00hrs - 18:00hrs
* St. Catherine's Church CORE, Thomas Street, Dublin 8.

Luas Line F to be announced today

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