Deloitte to advise on liquidation or examinership of Dublin Bus

monument · 19-10-2013 11:00pm #1

Sunday Times editor tweeted this in a preview of tomorrow's paper:

ST [Sunday Times] Biz: Transport department hires Deloitte to advise on possible liquidation or examinership of Dublin Bus. (Plenty of room on top, folks)

The ultimate bluff?

coylemj · 19-10-2013 11:23pm

Wouldn't be the first time the Dept. of Transport threw money away on a pointless exercise. Mary O'Rourke when she was minister for Public Enterprise from 97 to 02 kicked many a can down the road by commissioning reports from consultants after which nothing happened though I believe when Micheal Martin was Minister for Health, he took this to a new level that has yet to be surpassed.

LXFlyer · 19-10-2013 11:44pm

I would not view this as in any way a pointless exercise.

Frankly it is making it clear to the employees in as blunt a manner possible that they need to get real. Otherwise the game is up.

Cookie_Monster · 19-10-2013 11:52pm

This is just going make the Unions even more uppity...

Grandeeod · 20-10-2013 12:00am

lxflyer wrote: »

I would not view this as in any way a pointless exercise.

Frankly it is making it clear to the employees in as blunt a manner possible that they need to get real. Otherwise the game is up.

I would agree with this statement completely.

Grandeeod · 20-10-2013 12:03am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

This is just going make the Unions even more uppity...

Probably, but it has to come to a head at some point. IE should be next and I can already see it coming.

LXFlyer · 20-10-2013 12:32am

I think we've gone well beyond the point where whether the unions are uppity or not matters.

The fact is that the leadership shown by the unions in this dispute has been pathetic. It should have been resolved after the strike in August, but it's been let linger on and on.

As I've said before, some clear thinking is needed now and hopefully this move will convince those that are in any doubt that this is the last chance saloon.

Grandeeod · 20-10-2013 12:35am

lxflyer wrote: »

I think we've gone well beyond the point where whether the unions are uppity or not matters.

The fact is that the leadership shown by the unions in this dispute has been pathetic. It should have been resolved after the strike in August, but it's been let linger on and on.

As I've said before, some clear thinking is needed now and hopefully this move will convince those that are in any doubt that this is the last chance saloon.

I agree, but really feel that the last chance saloon scenario isn't hitting home and the traditional culture of state dependence isn't going away no matter what the department says.

LXFlyer · 20-10-2013 12:48am

Grandeeod wrote: »

I agree, but really feel that the last chance saloon scenario isn't hitting home and the traditional culture of state dependence isn't going away no matter what the department says.

Well I don't think any of us can really make that sort of comment unless we work inside the company and until a further ballot is held.

However, one would hope that common sense will prevail.

Lets be honest, most Dublin Bus drivers are decent people, but they have not been given the sort of proper leadership from the unions that a situation this critical warrants.

That needs to change and fast.

end of the road · 20-10-2013 12:58am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Probably, but it has to come to a head at some point. IE should be next and I can already see it coming.

i fear this happening more then dublin bus as i fear it could spell the end for much of the railway unless the government agree to pay private operators a fair subsidy to run it all and not just dart/commuter/dublin cork/dublin bellfast. liquidation of dublin bus would also be a disaster as i wouldn't be surprised if their was no plan ready to take up the slack if it did, getting a new operator ready along with the contracts would take a while, either way its worrying times ahead.

cgcsb · 20-10-2013 12:07pm

It's a worthwhile exercise even if nothing happens. If the strikers think they can be easily replaced by private sector workers, they'll soon back down

StreetLight · 20-10-2013 12:22pm

The way things are looking, those strikers may well soon become private sector workers themselves.

Hilly Bill · 20-10-2013 12:57pm

Who owns Dublin Bus?

thomasj · 20-10-2013 1:20pm

The Department of Transport has retained Deloitte, the accounting and consulting firm, to advise it on a possible liquidation of Dublin Bus.

MOD EDIT: PLEASE DO NOT QUOTE MORE THAN A PAR OR SO OF ANY ARTICLE

http://www.thesundaytimes.co.uk/sto/news/ireland/article1329477.ece

(Subscription required to view full article - short bit readable)

cdebru · 20-10-2013 3:21pm

Just more scaremongering been there done that seen it all before.

thomasj · 20-10-2013 3:33pm

cdebru wrote: »

Just more scaremongering been there done that seen it all before.

I don't know.

I'm not sure what to make of varadkar, and he's my local TD.

There's something very thatcherite about him and time will tell if this was the ultimate bluff or genuine.

Either way, if Dublin bus was a private company, it would be long gone by now and i reckon its being looked at by fine Gael as a private company.......... In which case its not good.

Copyerselveson · 20-10-2013 3:35pm

thomasj wrote: »

I don't know.

I'm not sure what to make of varadkar, and he's my local TD.

There's something very thatcherite about him and time will tell if this was the ultimate bluff or genuine.

Well if DB or indeed any other part of CIE is insolvent I rather suspect he will push for examinership or even liquidation.

end of the road · 20-10-2013 3:39pm

cgcsb wrote: »

It's a worthwhile exercise even if nothing happens. If the strikers think they can be easily replaced by private sector workers, they'll soon back down

or maybe not, some could make sure the private sector replacements don't last by making things difficult, they can't be easily replaced by private sector workers as in the end ultimately it will cost the government more in subsidies, oh yes the NTA might regulate for a while but eventually like other bodies they will back down and bend over to the private operators who aren't going to (and rightly so) except the current subsidy level

end of the road · 20-10-2013 3:42pm

cdebru wrote: »

Just more scaremongering been there done that seen it all before.

i hope your right, all though if dublin bus was privateised no doubt their would be a lot more votes in it from the "i'm in the private sector and don't get this so nobody else can have it" brigade, ultimately i think it will be the possibility of being re-elected that will ultimately decide what happens, it is ireland after all

cdebru · 20-10-2013 3:49pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Well I don't think any of us can really make that sort of comment unless we work inside the company and until a further ballot is held.

However, one would hope that common sense will prevail.

Lets be honest, most Dublin Bus drivers are decent people, but they have not been given the sort of proper leadership from the unions that a situation this critical warrants.

That needs to change and fast.

The problem is that both unions took the view that they won't negotiate away terms and conditions so basically they just refused to negotiate then let the labour court guess what would be more acceptable.

The whole process is a nonsense the company come with a list of about 25 items that they say they need but none of these are ever costed, so no one knows which of the 25 the company actually want or need, it goes to the labour court and comes back with less than half of the original proposals so clearly the company were lying with the original proposals as half of them are gone but apparently they can still save the same money.

Why oh why the company can't treat its employees as adults, why can't they say this is how much we need, then this is how much each department ( traffic, maintenance, clerical, supervisory, management) need to contribute. These are the ways we can save money each individually costed. Then employees could see everyone is making a fair contribution they could also see what is actually needed , we would not have this ridiculous kite flying where the company adds in stuff so it can give the unions the "well look we stopped x, y and z.

It might be a novel approach but the current system is completely flawed, it harks back to the Bertie school of negotiation. The main problem is that how do the employees know when we have actually reached the bottom line? The scaremongering and last chance saloon nonsense is wheeled out and then there is another last chance saloon appears after a no vote, obviously there is a last chance saloon but is this one it or is there maybe another one ? The boy who cried wolf and all that.

murphaph · 20-10-2013 7:18pm

Ultimately state bodies should not be in the business of running buses and trains day to day. The state should simply regulate and tender out contracts with defined quality of service agreements. Failing to meet these agreed targets results in the contractor being financially penalised. The private contractors take nothing from the fare box: all that goes back to the NTA to help pay the contracted companies that way. There should be almost no cash fares being taken. Using anything other than a leap card should mean an expensive trip.

Yes, it probably will cost more but only because the TRUE cost of running public transport becomes known as the private operators won't tender for contracts where they stand to lose money. When the true cost is established it will finally become an election issue as politicians opt to either maintain subsidies from general taxation or reduce subsidies and only allow the NTA to put a more stripped sown offering out to tender. The public will then need to make themselves heard, especially the urban public who really don't make enough noise.

It's a painful process that we need to go through IMO.

end of the road · 20-10-2013 8:01pm

murphaph wrote: »

Ultimately state bodies should not be in the business of running buses and trains day to day. The state should simply regulate and tender out contracts with defined quality of service agreements. Failing to meet these agreed targets results in the contractor being financially penalised. The private contractors take nothing from the fare box: all that goes back to the NTA to help pay the contracted companies that way. There should be almost no cash fares being taken. Using anything other than a leap card should mean an expensive trip.

Yes, it probably will cost more but only because the TRUE cost of running public transport becomes known as the private operators won't tender for contracts where they stand to lose money. When the true cost is established it will finally become an election issue as politicians opt to either maintain subsidies from general taxation or reduce subsidies and only allow the NTA to put a more stripped sown offering out to tender. The public will then need to make themselves heard, especially the urban public who really don't make enough noise.

It's a painful process that we need to go through IMO.

why is it a process worth going through if at the end of it its ultimately going to cost us all more and we still end up with a monopoly? isn't it not fair to say that still in some countries the state still operates public transport but operates it well? isn't it ultimately probable that if dublin bus or all CIE companies end up privatised that other state operators will be a share holder in these companies? problem is, i really don't trust the NTA to do it in such a way that it will work out well for everyone

murphaph · 20-10-2013 8:23pm

end of the road wrote: »

why is it a process worth going through if at the end of it its ultimately going to cost us all more and we still end up with a monopoly? isn't it not fair to say that still in some countries the state still operates public transport but operates it well? isn't it ultimately probable that if dublin bus or all CIE companies end up privatised that other state operators will be a share holder in these companies? problem is, i really don't trust the NTA to do it in such a way that it will work out well for everyone

Some countries do have successful state run transport. Ireland is not one of those countries. CIE had decades as a fully integrated state run transport company to allow seamless integration of travel from one mode to the next and didn't bother. Dublin had zonal fares under the DUTC for heaven's sake: you could pay your penny and travel on multiple trams to your destination. Under CIE things actually went backwards!

There wouldn't be a monopoly by the way. All London buses are red but they are run by several companies who have to meet their targets or be penalised. TfL doesn't run buses themselves. They just set the targets and tender out the contracts and then police the service delivered. That's the way to run bus services.

My late father used to supply a main dealer and importer of bus engines. That company used to maintain the still under warranty units that were fitted in Dublin Bus vehicles at the time. The guys working on them worked on-site in Dublin bus garages but the Dublin Bus unions instructed the Dublin Bus mechanics never to work with those guys (and learn from their expertise in modern diesel bus engines) as they were non-unionised. That's the sort of mentality you're up against if you try to "reform" the likes of Dublin Bus. Their management aren't much use either to be honest.

The best way for Dublin is to go the TfL way.

end of the road · 20-10-2013 8:46pm

murphaph wrote: »

CIE had decades as a fully integrated state run transport company to allow seamless integration of travel from one mode to the next and didn't bother. Dublin had zonal fares under the DUTC for heaven's sake: you could pay your penny and travel on multiple trams to your destination. Under CIE things actually went backwards!

true, theirs a lot wrong with CIE, nobody said otherwise, however in an irish context privatisation won't solve all the things that are wrong for the simple reason ireland won't implament it properly, they will enforce the regulations for a while and then be pushed over by the private operators (don't tell me these operators won't have heard that ireland is a soft touch)

murphaph wrote: »

There wouldn't be a monopoly by the way. All London buses are red but they are run by several companies who have to meet their targets or be penalised. TfL doesn't run buses themselves. They just set the targets and tender out the contracts and then police the service delivered. That's the way to run bus services.

such a way isn't going to happen or even work in dublin, dublin is just to small, their aren't going to be multiple operators operating dublin bus routes should dublin bus be privatised or a tendering process come in, the system TFL has works because london is a huge city with probably hundreds of bus routes so their is room for a few operators, dublin only has a few routes in comparison and yet most of those are loss making.

murphaph wrote: »

My late father used to supply a main dealer and importer of bus engines. That company used to maintain the still under warranty units that were fitted in Dublin Bus vehicles at the time. The guys working on them worked on-site in Dublin bus garages but the Dublin Bus unions instructed the Dublin Bus mechanics never to work with those guys (and learn from their expertise in modern diesel bus engines) as they were non-unionised.

and that was wrong, but it isn't the fault of the union but the union leaders, ultimately its them who are responsible

murphaph wrote: »

The best way for Dublin is to go the TfL way.

but its not going to work, really all we can expect is one operator doing all the routes and thats it.

AlekSmart · 20-10-2013 8:46pm

murphaph wrote: »

.

My late father used to supply a main dealer and importer of bus engines. That company used to maintain the still under warranty units that were fitted in Dublin Bus vehicles at the time. The guys working on them worked on-site in Dublin bus garages but the Dublin Bus unions instructed the Dublin Bus mechanics never to work with those guys (and learn from their expertise in modern diesel bus engines) as they were non-unionised. That's the sort of mentality you're up against if you try to "reform" the likes of Dublin Bus. Their management aren't much use either to be honest.

Cahir House Garage ?

the groutch · 20-10-2013 8:57pm

end of the road wrote: »

why is it a process worth going through if at the end of it its ultimately going to cost us all more and we still end up with a monopoly?

not if it allows the tackling of the elephant in the room, the free travel passes. at most a few percent of the current passholders should be entitled to free travel, the rest should only be getting discounted travel.

Grandeeod · 20-10-2013 9:07pm

murphaph wrote: »

Some countries do have successful state run transport. Ireland is not one of those countries. CIE had decades as a fully integrated state run transport company to allow seamless integration of travel from one mode to the next and didn't bother. Dublin had zonal fares under the DUTC for heaven's sake: you could pay your penny and travel on multiple trams to your destination. Under CIE things actually went backwards!

There wouldn't be a monopoly by the way. All London buses are red but they are run by several companies who have to meet their targets or be penalised. TfL doesn't run buses themselves. They just set the targets and tender out the contracts and then police the service delivered. That's the way to run bus services.

My late father used to supply a main dealer and importer of bus engines. That company used to maintain the still under warranty units that were fitted in Dublin Bus vehicles at the time. The guys working on them worked on-site in Dublin bus garages but the Dublin Bus unions instructed the Dublin Bus mechanics never to work with those guys (and learn from their expertise in modern diesel bus engines) as they were non-unionised. That's the sort of mentality you're up against if you try to "reform" the likes of Dublin Bus. Their management aren't much use either to be honest.

The best way for Dublin is to go the TfL way.

I enjoyed that and quite right too. Outside the box, the box so many are afraid to be outside. Tradition is not good.

Victor · 20-10-2013 10:30pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Who owns Dublin Bus?

CIÉ, which in turn is owned by the minister.

Hilly Bill · 20-10-2013 10:50pm

Victor wrote: »

CIÉ, which in turn is owned by the minister.

I doubt it that Leo owns Dublin Bus Victor.

Dublin Bus wont go into liquidation unless the government had a new company ready to take over and all that will happen is a new name on the bus but the same drivers. They will be either on the same terms and conditions and possible better wages depending on the new company . What will most likely happen if it goes into examinership is that there will be forced cuts and job losses that the unions or the drivers wont be able to do anything about. I would say that Leo would love it to go into examinership just to say that he got one over the unions.

Victor · 20-10-2013 11:13pm

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I doubt it that Leo owns Dublin Bus Victor.

Leo doesn't, the minister (the officership) does.

Jawgap · 21-10-2013 8:39am

thomasj wrote: »

I don't know.

I'm not sure what to make of varadkar, and he's my local TD.

There's something very thatcherite about him and time will tell if this was the ultimate bluff or genuine.

Either way, if Dublin bus was a private company, it would be long gone by now and i reckon its being looked at by fine Gael as a private company.......... In which case its not good.

Leo is all bark and no bite - he strikes me as someone who had read all the books, has all the words but take away his briefing notes and he'd be pretty useless.

If you want an idea of how this is going to play out then the personality to focus on is the Sec Gen in Transport, and the Asst Sec Gen responsible for Public Transport.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

I doubt it that Leo owns Dublin Bus Victor.

Dublin Bus wont go into liquidation unless the government had a new company ready to take over and all that will happen is a new name on the bus but the same drivers. They will be either on the same terms and conditions and possible better wages depending on the new company . What will most likely happen if it goes into examinership is that there will be forced cuts and job losses that the unions or the drivers wont be able to do anything about. I would say that Leo would love it to go into examinership just to say that he got one over the unions.

How do you know they haven't something lined up? With all the posturing going on, they'll have had plenty of time to line up their ducks - if they have, DB could be in trouble, but I suspect they've not (or if they have they've managed to avoid any leaks) which makes the appointment of Deloitte seem quite hollow as a threat.

Deloitte to advise on liquidation or examinership of Dublin Bus

Comments