The Irish suicide question

NegativeCreep · 02-11-2012 6:40pm

OK, I didn't realise that my post could potentially be detrimental to a person seeking help or to people with literally no nope. I've deleted it. If you quoted it, edit your post and remove the quote. Sorry everyone

seven_eleven · 02-11-2012 6:52pm

I would disagree with negative creep too. But those services and methods he listed arent going to solve the problem all on their own.

The main thing in my opinion that aids recovery is summoning enough personal motivation and strength to fight the depression.
Im not exactly sure how to phrase this as Im terrible at conveying what Im trying to say.

But at the end of the day it boils down to the individual trying. I know thats extremely hard to do it but you have to try one way or the other. For me, the medication and councilling helped a tiny bit but I just decided I was going to try my best to get rid of it.
I hated exercise, but I slowly forced myself into doing it once a week. I tried my best to improve my diet, and engage in social interraction more. Slowly things began to improve.

I know anybody with depression reading this is probably thinking yeah right, thats a load of crap. But trust me, half the battle is trying to set your mind on something like that even if it seems like the stupidest, most annoying thing that you dont want to deal with. Its almost impossible to view improving your situation in a positive light with depression and thats half the battle. Its so hard to explain what I mean.

No meds, doctors, or councilling is going to magically make you better on their own..

Bergkamp 10 · 02-11-2012 6:56pm

I've post previously about my own depression and situation on AH. I have to just comment and say I agree with the guy who said alcohol is a major issue with regards depression.

I think if your unhappy alcohol makes things sooo much worse. And the amount of people who use alcohol as a crutch is alarming. Even on TV if they have a tough day its straight to the cabinet open the whiskey bottle, or spending the day in the pub. This feeds into peoples minds that this behaviour is alright! Things are getting worse with regard alcohol abuse here and I dont know how to stop it.

I've only been drinking heavily 4 years, now I know the harm it does. The hard part is stopping. I'm on day 3 now , I hope to last this time. I can only imagine how hard it is for people drinking heavily 10 plus years with depression.

Another thing if your a young male in this country , it is so hard not to drink alcohol. Sadly I dont know anyone over the age of 16 who doesnt drink. How sad is that?

jaffacakesyum · 02-11-2012 6:56pm

I don't know how to help the situation of Irish suicide. A lot of people, myself included, would say it's down to the stigma of mental health in Ireland, nobody talks about their feelings etc. but I really don't think that's it anymore. I used to think that years ago but recently I've noticed a lot of my people doing fundraising for Pieta House, Aware etc. I was in one conversation with friends (who I would have had down as my least sensitive friends, always joking around about everything, not as liberal or educated for want of a better description) where they discussed seriously how horrible it is that people are depressed and feel they can't talk about it, and how they know a lot of people suffering from depression. That conversation really shocked me.

So what is it then? Is it solely the lack of services in Ireland? I think the services are there if you can afford them so really that only leaves the group of people who are relying on public health services that 'should' be at risk.

I know for me, I have access to counselling and I recently started after years of living with depression. I don't feel it is helping. I feel it is getting worse. Many times, I've contemplated suicide. I'd never do it out of guilt for leaving my family behind and I know it's the 'wrong' thing to do. I know I will never commit suicide but I can see why others do it.

I wish there were a quick fix solution to suicide in Ireland (and worldwide) but I just don't think there is. OF COURSE, I would advise that anyone with such feelings talk to someone, go to your GP, get counselling. And if it works, then great! I've been told there are great success rates. But what of the people for whom it doesn't work? Unfortunately, I believe that not everybody in this life will be happy. Not everybody will be happy in their job (if they are lucky enough to get one), not everyone will find love, have healthy relationships with friends/family. It's the unfortunate truth.

666irishguy · 02-11-2012 7:21pm

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Are there any statistics or studies about the role drink and drugs play in being a contributory factor in suicides in Ireland?

I don't know if such a detailed study has been done, but I think drink/drugs must have a role in some percentage of the deaths.

flutterflye · 02-11-2012 7:26pm

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Wow, what a strange view!

Counselling (and other forms of therapy, such as DBT and CBT) have huge success rates! It's all about finding the therapist and form of therapy that best suits your needs. For example, a lot of people diagnosed as being Borderline tend to be referred for counselling, when DBT is much more effective as it's specifically tailored to help with Borderline. Trauma counselling has huge success rates, as does rape counselling. Counselling for self esteem and marriage issues also have great success rates. It doesn't work for everyone, but it works amazingly well for a lot of people. If someone who has untreated mental health issues were to read your view on counselling, it could be a huge deterrent to them seeking help. It does NOT work for everyone, but if you're ready, find the right form of therapy for you and the right counsellor for your needs, it can be wonderful. I struggled for 6 years with therapy because I just didn't trust the counsellors I had, after a bad experience with my first counsellor. After 6 years, I finally found one who was absolutely amazing. 6 months later, I was off all medication, finished counselling and feeling fantastic, with much improved confidence levels and self respect.

The problem is so many people don't know about any other sort of councelling than the talky talky rehash the past type councelling which is pretty useless for when a person gets to a point where they know the hows and the whys, and it's time for them to unlearn their behaviours and learn new ones.

CBT is becoming popular thank god, but the vast majority of councellors in this country practice rogarian style councelling (even if they say they do something else! - they don't!).

And a scary amount of them aren't even registered with the IACP.
Plus, there is no actual degree course where you qualify to become a councellor.

There are TONS of types of councelling methods out there, but Ireland is overpopulated by the same old crappy councellors that take the softly softly, and how do you feel approach - which has its uses of course - it is invaluable for certain things, but the time comes where you need to move forward from that.

Endless Nameless · 02-11-2012 7:57pm

An old buddy of mine tried to kill himself about two years ago, he was 18.

He was bullied since primary school and was obviously not feeling very happy a lot of the time, nobody ever tried to help him really.
Teachers, school counselors, his parents.....nobody gave a crap.

Then after he swallowed a load of pills he was allergic to and ended up in the hospital, everybody was so hush-hush, everybody was so quiet about it.
It was a "personal thing", a "private matter", even though socially shunning him, verbal abuse (even from teachers) and purposeful exclusion were more than socially acceptable.

I was thinking of posting a thread a while back cause a coroner from my town criticised the internet and so-called "suicide websites" : http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/suicide-websites-criticised-1-4331145

I tried to google such sites, but all I got were government sites set up to try curb suicides.

I find it absurd to want to control an area of free speech in such a Socially Conservative place like Ireland.

flyswatter · 02-11-2012 8:09pm

Endless Nameless wrote: »

An old buddy of mine tried to kill himself about two years ago, he was 18.

He was bullied since primary school and was obviously not feeling very happy a lot of the time, nobody ever tried to help him really.
Teachers, school counselors, his parents.....nobody gave a crap.

Then after he swallowed a load of pills he was allergic to and ended up in the hospital, everybody was so hush-hush, everybody was so quiet about it.
It was a "personal thing", a "private matter", even though socially shunning him, verbal abuse (even from teachers) and purposeful exclusion were more than socially acceptable.

I was thinking of posting a thread a while back cause a coroner from my town criticised the internet and so-called "suicide websites" : http://www.donegaldemocrat.ie/news/local/suicide-websites-criticised-1-4331145

I tried to google such sites, but all I got were government sites set up to try curb suicides.

I find it absurd to want to control an area of free speech in such a Socially Conservative place like Ireland.

I know Google purposely promote anti-suicide results in their search engine when doing searches for the term.

You're never going to be able to control pro suicide sites totally if you want to find them, and there is little if any censorship on the Irish web.

I'm against censorship but I actually think the Russian governments new censorship policies for the web make sense, it's not like China or anything, but is controlling sites on terrorism, paedophilia, suicide too.

Do you think that curbing sites promoting suicide is a bad thing?

Endless Nameless · 02-11-2012 8:24pm

flyswatter wrote: »

Do you think that curbing sites promoting suicide is a bad thing?

I don't think censoring Free Speech is a good thing, but constant verbal abuse should be a matter for the police.

Where are these sites anyway? I've found many weird ones knocking around the place but never one set up specifically for this purpose.

I bet if such laws were set up, the first places they'd go for would be imageboards like 4chan, while sites like reddit would be relatively immune, based on their perception, even though a site like reddit can cause just as much harm.

I think most importantly what people say to the depressed in real life will end up being far more important than what random people say on the internet.
Trying to suppress speech on the internet while simultaneously not caring about what people say in real life is a bad policy.

Any of my friends or acquaintances who've ever been depressed, there wasn't anybody there for them at all, therefore the internet can be a great thing as an outlet.

Promac · 02-11-2012 8:44pm

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I'm baffled. I don't really get what point you're making. NZ has much higher rates of suicide than Ireland. You're saying Ireland is a dump and you're entitled to your opinion but how does this relate to the suicide question? I don't see what connection you're making when Ireland has lower suicide rates than the country you're extolling. Look at the countries that rate higher than Ireland:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_rates

Besides from some of the Eastern European countries, many of them are wealthy countries with plenty of opportunities for young people...but people are still deciding to kill themselves. Why are you going on about how great NZ is? That'd be all well and good if they had very low suicide rates....but they don't. Can you make yourselves a bit clearer please or are you just using this excuse to mouth off and have a pointless rant?

Pointless rant? Look who's talking. I wasn't the one that brought up NZ. My original comment (that you'd have seen had you actually read the thread instead just jumping on one comment) was that Ireland is a horrible place to be depressed in and I stand by it. Someone else saw that my current location is NZ and pointed out that there are much higher suicide rates here and someone else started banging on about why NZ is so much better so I've been responding. I had no intention of talking about NZ in the first place.

As I said earlier, psychologists are baffled as to why the suicide rates are so high here when the general population is very satisfied with life and it's such a nice place to live. As someone who has lived with depression for a long time, I believe it's a lot easier to deal with here for a variety of reasons which have already been discussed.

Promac · 02-11-2012 8:46pm

Penny Dreadful wrote: »

Dpression hits you anywhere anytime. It has nothing to do with the country. It is within a person.

You missed the point there. It's a lot easier to deal with depression if you're not in a dreary country surrounded by negative people and serious socio-economic problems.

Miss Lockhart · 02-11-2012 8:54pm

Promac wrote: »

Pointless rant? Look who's talking. I wasn't the one the brought up NZ. My original comment (that you'd have seen had you actually read the thread instead just jumping on one comment) was that Ireland is a horrible place to be depressed in and I stand by it. Someone else saw that my current location is NZ and pointed out that there are much higher suicide rates here and someone else started banging on about why NZ is so much better so I've been responding. I had no intention of talking about NZ in the first place.

As I said earlier, psychologists are baffled as to why the suicide rates are so high here when the general population is very satisfied with life and it's such a nice place to live. As someone who has lived with depression for a long time, I believe it's a lot easier to deal with here for a variety of reasons which have already been discussed.

As it happens, by coincidence I have good friend here from NZ who suffers from depression. She thinks it's much easier to deal with it here than at home - thinks we are actually much more open about talking about depression and suicide and that there are lots of high profile campaigns and support services. Perhaps it is the change of location and a break from your perceived norm and routine that are responsible for an improved outlook on life.

****
I don't think there is any straight forward reason for or solution to suicide. I don't think Ireland has a particularly bad issue with it (when compared to international levels) - but of course any suicide is a problem that we should at least try to address.

I wonder, if our health and support systems are to blame, then why are other countries with much better health systems above us in the suicide rankings? Why are countries with much worse sytems below us? Why are countries with better living standards above us and some with worse living standards below us? I don't know - but I think it does point to the fact that it's not that simple and that lashing out to blame "the government" is not the answer.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the government or the medical profession to have the answer. The answer doesn't exist at the moment - it's an area that's poorly understood.

flutterflye · 02-11-2012 8:58pm

flyswatter wrote: »

Do you think that curbing sites promoting suicide is a bad thing?

I do.
I was trying to figure out which pills to take to kill myself once and I came across a website that detailed tons of pills commonly taken by suicidal people.
Loads of the common pills you find in your medicine cabinet won't kill you, but instead will completely fcuk your insides up for life, causing failures of various organs, leaving you hospitalised and on drips for life.
And some will kill you, but after years of organ failure.
I didn't know most of what I read, and I doubt others do either.

flyswatter · 02-11-2012 9:00pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

As it happens, by coincidence I have good friend here from NZ who suffers from depression. She thinks it's much easier to deal with it here than at home - thinks we are actually much more open about talking about depression and suicide and that there are lots of high profile campaigns and support services. Perhaps it is the change of location and a break from your perceived norm and routine that are responsible for an improved outlook on life.

****
I don't think there is any straight forward reason for or solution to suicide. I don't think Ireland has a particularly bad issue with it (when compared to international levels) - but of course any suicide is a problem that we should at least try to address.

I wonder, if our health and support systems are to blame, then why are other countries with much better health systems above us in the suicide rankings? Why are countries with much worse sytems below us? Why are countries with better living standards above us and some with worse living standards below us? I don't know - but I think it does point to the fact that it's not that simple and that lashing out to blame "the government" is not the answer.

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the government or the medical profession to have the answer. The answer doesn't exist at the moment - it's an area that's poorly understood.

Have to take exception to this, just because there are 30 odd countries above us in a statistics chart doesn't mean anything.

It's definitely a problem, no two ways about it. Did you read the last big thread here on suicide a couple of months back? Heartbreaking stuff.

Miss Lockhart · 02-11-2012 9:04pm

flyswatter wrote: »

Have to take exception to this, just because there are 30 odd countries above us in a statistics chart doesn't mean anything.

It's definitely a problem, no two ways about it. Did you read the last big thread here on suicide a couple of months back? Heartbreaking stuff.

I did say when compared to international levels. I didn't say we didn't have a problem at all.

Some people seem to make out like Ireland has unparalleled levels of suicide, but that's just not true.

Yes, I did read the thread. I have also been suicidal myself. This doesn't change my opinon that many people overplay Irish suicide levels as compared to international levels.

I do think it's interesting that the UK appears to have much lower levels.

flyswatter · 02-11-2012 9:13pm

Miss Lockhart wrote: »

I did say when compared to international levels. I didn't say we didn't have a problem at all.

Some people seem to make out like Ireland has unparalleled levels of suicide, but that's just not true.

Yes, I did read the thread. I have also been suicidal myself. This doesn't change my opinon that many people overplay Irish suicide levels as compared to international levels.

I do think it's interesting that the UK appears to have much lower levels.

Bear in mind it's per capita and many suicides aren't listed as such officially.

Countries like Japan and Lithuania have an epidemic of it, I haven't heard anyone compare it to the likes of those.

I think it's a big issue to be honest when the death toll is significantly higher than road deaths. Yet, it has generated no media campaign even near the same scale as drive safe/anti drink driving etc.

Miss Lockhart · 02-11-2012 9:16pm

flyswatter wrote: »

I think it's a big issue to be honest when the death toll is significantly higher than road deaths. Yet, it has generated no media campaign even near the same scale as drive safe/anti drink driving etc.

I see your point, but road safety and anti drink-driving campaigns are very straight forward - it is clear what the problems are and what the solutions are. Suicide and depression are just not that straight forward, so it is not clear what exactly a campaign should be focusing on.

Da Shins Kelly · 02-11-2012 9:33pm

Promac wrote: »

I'm 36 and male and have been living with depression since my early teens. I lived in Ireland most my life (north and south), I lived in Europe for years and now I live in NZ and I can honestly say that everywhere I've been outside Ireland has been a far more pleasant place to be. Ireland has it's charms and it's a crackin place to visit but I never want to live there again. And don't imply from that that I'm saying Ireland is the worst place to live - far from it.

There are various reasons why Ireland is horrible but I'm not gonna do a "your place versus my place" argument. If you have a good life and little to complain about then Ireland could be a grand place to live, as I'm sure it is for most, but if you have to deal with depression too then it's horrible (in my experience) and people have already covered most of the reasons why in this thread. Living somewhere with a better quality of life, people that are happier in general and more positive overall and being in a place where the sun shines most days rather than the opposite is just something that makes dealing with depression a lot easier.

I find it interesting that you can't see why NZ would be better for weather or scenery though - did you come here in winter and only visit Greymouth? This is a beautiful country and gets the same kinda weather as parts of Spain. Might be better to start a new thread for that one though!

I don't really agree with this. Since moving to Spain, my depression has become worse than ever. I don't think where you live has much to do with it. Maybe it does for you, but for me anyway, depression is a state of mind that has little or no connection with where I'm living at any given time. It's a bit more profound than that.

quickbeam · 03-11-2012 12:31am

closing_bell wrote: »

women have any number of support outlets for any number of issues nowasdays , the issue of suicide is overwhelmingly a male issue , no need to refer to suicide amongst women for the sake of equality

I wasn't suggesting it as some politically correct sexual equality issue. If you know of something like Sheds for women then please do share, because I'm not aware of any.

daisybelle2008 · 03-11-2012 12:32pm

closing_bell wrote: »

women have any number of support outlets for any number of issues nowasdays , the issue of suicide is overwhelmingly a male issue , no need to refer to suicide amongst women for the sake of equality

se

Statistically women attempt suicide more than men. Men 'succeed' at it more than women. So no suicide is not overwhelmingly a male issue.

Depression is not necessarily gender or status specific either, self loathing can occur in rich, poor, male or female.

Drink and drugs are not causes of depression, they exacerbate an unerlying condition, but if the condition wasn't there, the wouldn't be abused in an attempt to medicate by the sufferer.

jackofalltrades · 03-11-2012 3:29pm

flutterflye wrote: »

The problem is so many people don't know about any other sort of councelling than the talky talky rehash the past type councelling which is pretty useless for when a person gets to a point where they know the hows and the whys, and it's time for them to unlearn their behaviours and learn new ones.

CBT is becoming popular thank god, but the vast majority of councellors in this country practice rogarian style councelling (even if they say they do something else! - they don't!).

The problem with giving advice like this is, that people considering going to counselling could completely discount Person-centered therapy/Humanistic approach as a result. Although you didn't have much success with this style, it proved invaluable for me.

LyndaMcl wrote:

It does NOT work for everyone, but if you're ready, find the right form of therapy for you and the right counsellor for your needs, it can be wonderful.

Best piece of advice on counselling in this thread so far. It would be great if you could go to the counselling equivalent of a triage nurse who could pick the right therapy/counsellor combination for you.

flutterflye · 03-11-2012 5:03pm

jackofalltrades wrote: »

The problem with giving advice like this is, that people considering going to counselling could completely discount Person-centered therapy/Humanistic approach as a result. Although you didn't have much success with this style, it proved invaluable for me.

Firstly, it wasn't advice, it was opinion.
Secondly, I didn't suggest it should be discounted, at least that was not my intention.
It is very useful for a time - when a person is dealing with some grief or trauma, or needs to work through the hows, whys, patterns etc..
But there comes a time where a new approach is needed to move forward.
Also, it is important that people ensure the counceller has the credentials.
And if one counseller doesn't work for you, that does not mean you should discount counselling as a whole - try a different counsellor, or a few different ones. If none of them work, try a different style of counseller.
That's all I was trying to say in my post really.

Call Me Jimmy · 03-11-2012 5:17pm

As someone mentioned earlier and I think it's worth re-iterating, I would say most people with depression at least, are not sitting in bed all day, doing nothing and crying / sad all the time. They are living the exact same lives, day to day as anyone else, it's just (speaking for myself) it's all forced and fake, the difference is a lack of true feeling (not in all cases but just for a different perspective on it).

For example, just this week a doctor in my area did his whole days work, including visiting 3 hospitals and then went home and hung himself. A pharmacist did the same, came home from work and killed himself.

So my point is just to place emphasis on the fact that completely depressed people can and sometimes do hide it for a long time and I think that's how you get these 'sudden' cases.

flyswatter · 03-11-2012 7:27pm

Call Me Jimmy wrote: »

As someone mentioned earlier and I think it's worth re-iterating, I would say most people with depression at least, are not sitting in bed all day, doing nothing and crying / sad all the time. They are living the exact same lives, day to day as anyone else, it's just (speaking for myself) it's all forced and fake, the difference is a lack of true feeling (not in all cases but just for a different perspective on it).

For example, just this week a doctor in my area did his whole days work, including visiting 3 hospitals and then went home and hung himself. A pharmacist did the same, came home from work and killed himself.

So my point is just to place emphasis on the fact that completely depressed people can and sometimes do hide it for a long time and I think that's how you get these 'sudden' cases.

I was just reading an article yesterday and people in both those careers are at the most risk of suicide, especially doctors.

Esoteric_ · 03-11-2012 7:47pm

flyswatter wrote: »

I was just reading an article yesterday and people in both those careers are at the most risk of suicide, especially doctors.

Sucks for me that I'm going back to college to be a psychologist, so. :pac:

I think if you're working in an area where you deal with vulnerable people or depressed people, sometimes it's a good idea to get some therapy yourself. It can't be easy listening to negativity all day long, I'd imagine.

blacklilly · 03-11-2012 7:47pm

I'm not sure if its been said already but pieta house is a fantastic facility, they help those who are suicidal, their family and friends. Even if you are concerned about a family member or friend pieta will give you advice and help and its 100% free

flyswatter · 03-11-2012 7:54pm

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Sucks for me that I'm going back to college to be a psychologist, so. :pac:

I think if you're working in an area where you deal with vulnerable people or depressed people, sometimes it's a good idea to get some therapy yourself. It can't be easy listening to negativity all day long, I'd imagine.

Well, psychologists aren't doctors unless they have a doctorate postgraduate so no worries there then!

I honestly can't remember if psychologists were mentioned on the list though.

Esoteric_ · 03-11-2012 8:08pm

flyswatter wrote: »

Well, psychologists aren't doctors unless they have a doctorate postgraduate so no worries there then!

I honestly can't remember if psychologists were mentioned on the list though.

Still a bit of a medical field, but sure I'll be grand.

But yeah, in a profession like being a GP, I'd imagine some counselling would be a helpful thing to get every now and then if things are bringing you down.

blacklilly · 03-11-2012 8:19pm

LyndaMcL wrote: »

Still a bit of a medical field, but sure I'll be grand.

But yeah, in a profession like being a GP, I'd imagine some counselling would be a helpful thing to get every now and then if things are bringing you down.

I know physiotherapists have to have supervision every so often so they can discuss the issues they have come up against. Just because you've studied for years and know how to deal with certain things doesn't mean you're immune to being negatively affected by the situations/stories you hear.

The Irish suicide question

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